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  #10101  
Old 13-08-2016, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadpool View Post
if you had actually seen one of these mythical guards in the flesh you would find the idea that they are responsible for anyone's safety ridiculous.
Now before you come back with some glib antagonistic response have a serious think about the prospect of not having a trained guard in the event of another incident like this.





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Last edited by croydonexile; 13-08-2016 at 08:38 PM.
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  #10102  
Old 13-08-2016, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by croydonexile View Post
Now before you come back with some glib antagonistic response have a serious think about the prospect of not having a trained guard in the event of another incident like this.





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I'm not on either side of this debate, but wtf would a guard have done on that train that would have prevented injury/death?
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  #10103  
Old 13-08-2016, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Fozzie View Post
I'm not on either side of this debate, but wtf would a guard have done on that train that would have prevented injury/death?
With the driver being killed then communication to the relevant people would be the guards responsibility.
If the train had derailed than the guard knows how to protect the train, to hopefully prevent trains on adjacent lines becoming involved.
The guard would not have prevented this accident/ incident, but can prevent it escalating to an even worse situation.
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  #10104  
Old 13-08-2016, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selhurst300 View Post
Out of interest, what industry do you work in?
I work in safety in the manufacturing and technology idustry. I've spent many years implementing policy in regions such as Africa, the middle east and Asia.
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  #10105  
Old 13-08-2016, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonysSpy View Post
I work in safety in the manufacturing and technology idustry. I've spent many years implementing policy in regions such as Africa, the middle east and Asia.
'Implementing' safety policy in Africa, Middle East and Asia ????? So funny.
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  #10106  
Old 13-08-2016, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
I mean no offence, but you really have no ****in clue.
I'm a driver, I was given a financial incentive to not have guards, I (and 94%) of my colleagues told them to stick it.
Who would put down TCOC's to protect a train in any kind of emergency? Who would isolate the juice? Who would help with a controlled or emergency evacuation of over 1000 people?
Who is going to reset the countless passenger alarms and smoke alarms?
The only people that think this is a good idea are the ill informed and shareholders
I don't think it's a good idea or a bad idea, just to remind you I have no opinion on that. The opinion I've expressed is about how the strike exploits people via a process that subverts democracy.

It's not the publics obligation to be informed it's down to you to engage them. In my experience shareholders are extremely interested in safety even those motivated by a return. Shareholders drive, maintain and travel on trains too. It's not them and us.
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  #10107  
Old 13-08-2016, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by croydonexile View Post
Now before you come back with some glib antagonistic response have a serious think about the prospect of not having a trained guard in the event of another incident like this.





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Deadpool is a c unt. Stop giving him the time of day
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  #10108  
Old 13-08-2016, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herr Colonpharter View Post
'Implementing' safety policy in Africa, Middle East and Asia ????? So funny.
What's so funny about a British company ensuring it's staff and customers around the world are entitled to same safety conditions? I mentioned those regions as they are particularly challenging due mainly to local norms and politics.
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  #10109  
Old 14-08-2016, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Fozzie View Post
I'm not on either side of this debate, but wtf would a guard have done on that train that would have prevented injury/death?
An extract from the formal enquiry.

Note: A track circuit operating clip short circuits the track and simulates a train standing on the track so reverts the signals to Red, usually used on the opposite track to stop oncoming trains in an emergency.

'Cess' is the term for the safe side of the track where there are no other lines.

Train manager is another name for a guard




The Rescue Operation

Actions of On-Train Staff

Train Manager A had joined the train at Paddington and estimated
that there were between 200 and 220 passengers in the standard
class accommodation in coaches A to E inclusive. He was standing
in the vestibule at the front end of coach B2 when the derailment
occurred. Although there was heavy deceleration and the coach
yawed and tilted before coming to rest (Appendix G, Fig. 8), he was
unhurt. His first reaction was to take down some light sticks and
hand them out to the passengers. He then proceeded to make his
way to the rear of the train, via coaches B2, B1 and A in
succession. His progress was difficult owing to all three coaches
leaning over at various angles. He did what he could to calm and
reassure the passengers as he walked back.
On arriving at his office situated at the trailing end of coach A, he
collected a set of track circuit operating clips and a hand lamp,
donned a high visibility jacket and climbed out of the train through a
broken window on the cess side of the track. The coach was
leaning at an angle of about 45 degrees towards the cess,
consequent upon which he was not able to exit through the door,
which was being held shut by ballast. He walked along the cess to
the back of the rear power car, where he placed the track circuit
operating clips across the rails in the Down Line. At this time, he
observed that passengers were evacuating coach A via a broken
window, also on the cess side of the track.
He met Train Manager B who informed him that he had attempted
to contact the signaller without success but that he had managed to
advise Swindon Control of the accident.
Train Manager A described the arrival of the emergency services
and the subsequent movement of the passengers to the local inn
that had been established as the reception point. He was contacted
by a manager from FGW who eventually transported him to Bristol
and thence to his home station in Exeter where he finally booked off
duty at 0215 hours on Sunday.
He confirmed that he had been trained in first aid and in the
controlled evacuation of passengers from coaches in accident
situations. He referred to the realism of the training, including the
presence of artificial smoke in the latter case. He said that the
locations of the light sticks in the coaches were clearly illuminated in
the darkness. He was not aware of any passengers trying to break
through the saloon/vestibule doors in the coaches or having
difficulty in evacuating the train. He believed that no problems had
been caused by falling luggage.

Train Manager B had also joined the train at Paddington and was
standing towards the centre of coach G (Appendix G, Fig. 2), facing
the rear of the train, at the time of the derailment. He was in the
process of working his way forward checking tickets and having
completed coach F, he was making his way through coach G
towards coach H at the front of the train. He was thrown backwards
and sustained bruising. On regaining his feet, he activated the light
sticks, leaving them in their housings. He asked the passengers to
remain in their seats until the emergency services arrived. There
was no evidence of panic. He recollected that there were twelve
passengers in coach F and between six and eight passengers in
coach G. He was not aware of the number of passengers in coach
H. All three coaches contained first class accommodation.
He exited from coach G through an external door and went to a
nearby signal post telephone in order to contact the signaller but the
telephone was dead owing to lineside cables being damaged during
the derailment. He informed Swindon Control of the accident by
means of his mobile telephone. According to the Control Log, his
call was made at 1821 hrs.

He then spoke to Train Manager A who informed him that he had
put down track circuit operating clips to protect the train. He noted
that at about this time, the emergency services were beginning to
arrive, with the fire brigade being the first that he saw.

Train Manager B assisted the passengers who were gathering on
the Up Side of the line and then went to the Down side to give his
help with the evacuation of the passengers from coaches G and H,
which was being done under the control of the emergency services.
He observed that the passengers of coach F had exited via an
external door. When satisfied that he was no longer required, he
left the site after first speaking by telephone to his on-call manager
and assuring him that he was generally unhurt.
He mentioned that there had been a slight smell of diesel oil but he
was not especially concerned as he realised that the fuel did not
easily ignite. He confirmed that he had received passenger
evacuation and first aid training, which was periodically refreshed.
He believed that some passengers had used hammers to break
coach windows and was of the view that more hammers should be
provided in each coach. In the early stages there had been only
minimal lighting at the site of the accident, principally from the street
lights of the nearby A4 road. He considered that the light sticks had
been very helpful.
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  #10110  
Old 14-08-2016, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se1eagle View Post
I don't see why the RMT should be in the business of assessing safety. Are they experts in rail safety? It's not like rail is completely unregulated - the Rail Safety Standards Board sets the standards and has pronounced DOO trains safe.

If RMT really feel it is unsafe they should commission scientific reports that back up their case, protest to the board and raise awareness - not strike against a company that complies with the standards. If the strike is about jobs, just come out and say it.
The RMT and ASLEF do have an involvement with the RSSB as they sit on committees and often advise on new guidance and regulatory issues produced by the RSSB The unions do not usually have the funds to continually commission their own research into all railway safety matters so will often sit on advisory committees of the RSSB.

Unfortunately the RSSB unlike the RAIB (Rail Accident Investigation Brach) do not profess to be impartial but do express their aim of promoting ‘Safety’ and ‘Efficiency’. The RSSB is almost entirely funded and overseen by the rail operators and Network Rail so is often accused by some as doing the safety research to back the industry’s latest efficiency requests. They do however produce some excellent work which is often contrary to the wishes of the rail operators. (just to balance things up)
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  #10111  
Old 14-08-2016, 12:55 AM
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Latvian Latvian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selhurst300 View Post
Out of interest, what industry do you work in?
Professional poker player's PA.
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  #10112  
Old 14-08-2016, 10:59 AM
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keltic eagle keltic eagle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LN1 View Post
An extract from the formal enquiry.

Note: A track circuit operating clip short circuits the track and simulates a train standing on the track so reverts the signals to Red, usually used on the opposite track to stop oncoming trains in an emergency.

'Cess' is the term for the safe side of the track where there are no other lines.

Train manager is another name for a guard




The Rescue Operation

Actions of On-Train Staff

Train Manager A had joined the train at Paddington and estimated
that there were between 200 and 220 passengers in the standard
class accommodation in coaches A to E inclusive. He was standing
in the vestibule at the front end of coach B2 when the derailment
occurred. Although there was heavy deceleration and the coach
yawed and tilted before coming to rest (Appendix G, Fig. 8), he was
unhurt. His first reaction was to take down some light sticks and
hand them out to the passengers. He then proceeded to make his
way to the rear of the train, via coaches B2, B1 and A in
succession. His progress was difficult owing to all three coaches
leaning over at various angles. He did what he could to calm and
reassure the passengers as he walked back.
On arriving at his office situated at the trailing end of coach A, he
collected a set of track circuit operating clips and a hand lamp,
donned a high visibility jacket and climbed out of the train through a
broken window on the cess side of the track. The coach was
leaning at an angle of about 45 degrees towards the cess,
consequent upon which he was not able to exit through the door,
which was being held shut by ballast. He walked along the cess to
the back of the rear power car, where he placed the track circuit
operating clips across the rails in the Down Line. At this time, he
observed that passengers were evacuating coach A via a broken
window, also on the cess side of the track.
He met Train Manager B who informed him that he had attempted
to contact the signaller without success but that he had managed to
advise Swindon Control of the accident.
Train Manager A described the arrival of the emergency services
and the subsequent movement of the passengers to the local inn
that had been established as the reception point. He was contacted
by a manager from FGW who eventually transported him to Bristol
and thence to his home station in Exeter where he finally booked off
duty at 0215 hours on Sunday.
He confirmed that he had been trained in first aid and in the
controlled evacuation of passengers from coaches in accident
situations. He referred to the realism of the training, including the
presence of artificial smoke in the latter case. He said that the
locations of the light sticks in the coaches were clearly illuminated in
the darkness. He was not aware of any passengers trying to break
through the saloon/vestibule doors in the coaches or having
difficulty in evacuating the train. He believed that no problems had
been caused by falling luggage.

Train Manager B had also joined the train at Paddington and was
standing towards the centre of coach G (Appendix G, Fig. 2), facing
the rear of the train, at the time of the derailment. He was in the
process of working his way forward checking tickets and having
completed coach F, he was making his way through coach G
towards coach H at the front of the train. He was thrown backwards
and sustained bruising. On regaining his feet, he activated the light
sticks, leaving them in their housings. He asked the passengers to
remain in their seats until the emergency services arrived. There
was no evidence of panic. He recollected that there were twelve
passengers in coach F and between six and eight passengers in
coach G. He was not aware of the number of passengers in coach
H. All three coaches contained first class accommodation.
He exited from coach G through an external door and went to a
nearby signal post telephone in order to contact the signaller but the
telephone was dead owing to lineside cables being damaged during
the derailment. He informed Swindon Control of the accident by
means of his mobile telephone. According to the Control Log, his
call was made at 1821 hrs.

He then spoke to Train Manager A who informed him that he had
put down track circuit operating clips to protect the train. He noted
that at about this time, the emergency services were beginning to
arrive, with the fire brigade being the first that he saw.

Train Manager B assisted the passengers who were gathering on
the Up Side of the line and then went to the Down side to give his
help with the evacuation of the passengers from coaches G and H,
which was being done under the control of the emergency services.
He observed that the passengers of coach F had exited via an
external door. When satisfied that he was no longer required, he
left the site after first speaking by telephone to his on-call manager
and assuring him that he was generally unhurt.
He mentioned that there had been a slight smell of diesel oil but he
was not especially concerned as he realised that the fuel did not
easily ignite. He confirmed that he had received passenger
evacuation and first aid training, which was periodically refreshed.
He believed that some passengers had used hammers to break
coach windows and was of the view that more hammers should be
provided in each coach. In the early stages there had been only
minimal lighting at the site of the accident, principally from the street
lights of the nearby A4 road. He considered that the light sticks had
been very helpful.
Very sobering reading.

I have posted on here before about the Clapham Junction disaster. This disaster was in December 1989. One train smashed into the rear of another train which had stopped to report a signal problem. Over 30 people were killed and the train derailed. Another train coming in the opposite direction ploughed into the wreckage and this also derailed. This was empty coaching but luckily had a guard on board and he ran up the track and stopped a local train that was also packed with commuters ploughing into it otherwise there would have been far more fatalities.

This disaster was on the southwestern region (network southwest I think ). This was on the lines into and out of Waterloo.

At the time I was a driver at Victoria central on network southeast which is now southern. At the time of the disaster southern were trying to push through Doo even though we were in dispute about it. At the time we were saying it needs a disaster to make management wake up.

So the talk of the mess rooms after the disaster was that surely they won't push through Doo now. How wrong were we. Within 6 months we were driving Doo on the suburban routes around the southern region.

What I find quite strange is that southwestern where the disaster took place still don't have Doo but they use the same class 455 trains as we had on Southern. Work that one out people.

So now I drive Doo trains in Central Scotland. I moved to a newly opened depot 5 years ago. We were told it would be Doo but there would always be a second member of staff on board. Wrong.

So I have to deal with school kids running amok pulling communication cords and terrorising oaps. on late trains females get unwanted harassment from pissed up pricks. I've also been involved in a serious incident where a prisoner that had been released from prison in Edinburgh but was wanted in Doncaster for god knows what was on my train and being very abusive and threatening. I was actually really lucky and had a ticket examiner on board so the 2 of us were able to contain and keep him relatively calm while it took the police about 20 minutes to arrive. The train was full of old people and families with small kids.

There have also been a high number of suicides up here recently some of which my collegues involved were the only railway person on board so had to cope with everything on their own. Aparantly there is a fatality every 36 hours on the rail network.

So Mr safety man Tony spy and pricks like deadpool and the like that are spouting all your shit when you don't know what you are talking about maybe it's about time you start googling about railway accidents over the last 180 years or whatever it is. There is some interesting reading as with the above incident that Ln1 posted and myself with Clapham. Then make up your mind. Yes rail travel is far safer now but you will never stop incidents like Ufton nerfet or infrastructure failures.

And as as for my collegues on the southern. Keep up with the campaign. It looks like they are making headway up here north of the border.

Last edited by keltic eagle; 14-08-2016 at 11:04 AM.
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Old 14-08-2016, 11:02 AM
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Good post Chris.
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Old 14-08-2016, 11:15 AM
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Very sobering reading.

I have posted on here before about the Clapham Junction disaster. This disaster was in December 1989. One train smashed into the rear of another train which had stopped to report a signal problem. Over 30 people were killed and the train derailed. Another train coming in the opposite direction ploughed into the wreckage and this also derailed. This was empty coaching but luckily had a guard on board and he ran up the track and stopped a local train that was also packed with commuters ploughing into it otherwise there would have been far more fatalities.

This disaster was on the southwestern region (network southwest I think ). This was on the lines into and out of Waterloo.

At the time I was a driver at Victoria central on network southeast which is now southern. At the time of the disaster southern were trying to push through Doo even though we were in dispute about it. At the time we were saying it needs tlast disaster to make management wake up.

So the talk of the mess rooms after the disaster was that surely they won't push through Doo now. How wrong were we. Within 6 months we were driving Doo on the suburban routes around the southern region.

What I find quite strange is that southwestern where the disaster took place still don't have Doo but they use the same class 455 trains as we had on Southern. Work that one out people.

So now I drive Doo trains in Central Scotland. I moved to a newly opened depot 5 years ago. We were told it would be Doo but there would always be a second member of staff on board. Wrong.

So I have to deal with school kids running amok pulling communication cords and terrorising oaps. on late trains females get unwanted harassment from pissed up pricks. I've also been involved in a serious incident where a prisoner that had been released from prison in Edinburgh but was wanted in Doncaster for god knows what was on my train and being very abusive and threatening. I was actually really lucky and had a ticket examiner on board so the 2 of us were able to contain and keep him relatively calm while it took the police about 20 minutes to arrive. The train was full of old people and families with small kids.

There have also been a high number of suicides up here recently some of which my collegues involved were the only railway person on board so had to cope with everything on their own. Aparantly there is a fatality every 36 hours on the rail network.

So Mr safety man Tony spy and pricks like deadpool and the like that are spouting all your shit when you don't know what you are talking about maybe it's about time you start googling about railway accidents over the last 180 years or whatever it is. There is some interesting reading as with the above incident that Ln1 posted and myself with Clapham. Them make up your mind. Yes rail travel is far safer now but you will never stop incidents like Ufton nerfet or infrastructure failures.

And as as for my collegues on the southern. Keep up with the campaign. It looks like they are making headway up here north of the border.
You miss the point every time though. What you call spouting shit is how the world works. Saying every other stakeholder in safety is ill informed or greedy is ridiculous I've never known a politician, shareholder, or customer who doesn't think safety is really important. Making things less safe = less profitibility. Stop trying to convince people of what's safe and what's not and explain why none of the many people responsible for safety share your concerns?
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Old 14-08-2016, 11:25 AM
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You miss the point every time though. What you call spouting shit is how the world works. Saying every other stakeholder in safety is ill informed or greedy is ridiculous I've never known a politician, shareholder, or customer who doesn't think safety is really important. Making things less safe = less profitibility. Stop trying to convince people of what's safe and what's not and explain why none of the many people responsible for safety share your concerns?
I am not talking from a profit angle or anything. I am basically telling you the facts from my experience of working in the industry for over 30 years and working with and without conductors. I don't know enough about politics to comment on the economics of the situation.

But take notice of what I said about southwestern. This needs to be looked at
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Old 14-08-2016, 11:57 AM
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You miss the point every time though. What you call spouting shit is how the world works. Saying every other stakeholder in safety is ill informed or greedy is ridiculous I've never known a politician, shareholder, or customer who doesn't think safety is really important. Making things less safe = less profitibility. Stop trying to convince people of what's safe and what's not and explain why none of the many people responsible for safety share your concerns?
I also think you are confusing me with someone else. I've never talked about stakeholders or profit but I see what it has done to this industry since privatisation. Elgin may be able to tell you how his managers have been since the incident he was involved in. But a relatively new manager at my depot was saying that the Dutch company that runs our franchise think it's reasonable to try and get a driver back to work after a fatality within 3 days. That's just not right. So there is profit over safety and I don't care what anyone says.
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Old 14-08-2016, 12:01 PM
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You miss the point every time though. What you call spouting shit is how the world works. Saying every other stakeholder in safety is ill informed or greedy is ridiculous I've never known a politician, shareholder, or customer who doesn't think safety is really important. Making things less safe = less profitibility. Stop trying to convince people of what's safe and what's not and explain why none of the many people responsible for safety share your concerns?
You deliberately seem to miss the point and continue post drivel you've read in a right wing newspaper.

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Old 14-08-2016, 12:03 PM
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I also think you are confusing me with someone else. I've never talked about stakeholders or profit but I see what it has done to this industry since privatisation. Elgin may be able to tell you how his managers have been since the incident he was involved in. But a relatively new manager at my depot was saying that the Dutch company that runs our franchise think it's reasonable to try and get a driver back to work after a fatality within 3 days. That's just not right. So there is profit over safety and I don't care what anyone says.

Disgusting.
I know a driver who had a fatality (killed a dude walking his dog in front of his wife and kids) never drove a train again. What about the driver who hit the mum who was holding her toddler? Union should jump all over that.
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Old 14-08-2016, 12:51 PM
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Disgusting.
I know a driver who had a fatality (killed a dude walking his dog in front of his wife and kids) never drove a train again. What about the driver who hit the mum who was holding her toddler? Union should jump all over that.
Agree. The manager I was talking to said he was not going to act on that. Was leaving it to the driver to decide when he's ok
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Old 14-08-2016, 01:12 PM
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Agree. The manager I was talking to said he was not going to act on that. Was leaving it to the driver to decide when he's ok
Mine have been pretty good to be fair. It helps that they have both had one so you know they know the score, if that makes sense. Going back over the route on Tuesday week to check I don't freak out or anything, but tbh if you are going to panic every time you round a curve or see a punter near the edge of a platform you probably haven't recovered. (If 'recovered' is an accurate word). Selfishly I see it now as doing him a favour. Different if it's someone running after a dog or a pisshead collapsing onto the track though.

Like everyone else on the railway or with half a brain in their head, I want to keep the guard on the train. Mine was a great asset then, as they are everyday. Feck DOO.
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