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  #1861  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
I disagree with that. They knew exactly what buttons to push.

They were the Jonnie Cochran in the OJ trial - no case whatsoever, but won.
It was a case made well to win a vote, but offered nothing for the day after. No one knows what the Leavers have voted for.
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  #1862  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
I'll only be conned if we never leave. I was asked 1 question - leave or stay. All the promises were just politician talk. You know, like the emergency budget and immediate tax rises we've just had? Oh.

Both sides lied. Both sides badly. I wasn't happy with how things were and wasn't provided with a good enough argument to stay that would satisfy my concerns.

It's a bit like voting Labour because you hate the Tories. You don't have to like or believe labour's mandate but you're just happy it not the Tory one.
I think you may find that

1) abandoning the fiscal rule ie: the end to the austerity project and trying to balance the books by 2020

2) The bank of England ending the rule that banks must hold £150 billion in reserve in case of another banking crisis

3) an offer to reduce Corporation Tax from 20% to 'less than' 15% to encourage businesses to invest in post Brexit Britain

amounts to an emergency budget. As ever our glorious leaders daren't tell the truth.
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  #1863  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
It was a case made well to win a vote, but offered nothing for the day after. No one knows what the Leavers have voted for.
Other than taking back control.

(Which actually means substituting one form of control for another, more expensive and restrictive, form).
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  #1864  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
I think it'll be more than 70% to be honest. But how many before the vote were pissed off with the EU? I know several people who voted remain as they didn't like the uncertainty of leaving but still hated the EU as it is.
Yeah, I don't know.
Thing is, these days people feel they have to say they "hate" things that they only really dislike.
And the Brits wouldn't be the Brits if they weren't moaning about something, would they? Look at this place.
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  #1865  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Yeah, I don't know.
Thing is, these days people feel they have to say they "hate" things that they only really dislike.
.
Yes, especially when it comes to politics.

One might incidentally suggest that our lives are affected as much by local as much as national politics, but there's rarely a peep about that on these boards.
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  #1866  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
It's also true that the negative consequences were hard to pin down because Brexit was very hard to define.
We still don't really know what it means and whatever it ends up being, there will be millions pissed off because it doesn't correspond to their idea of what they were voting for. Not to mention all the people who voted to Remain.
Basically whatever happens, about 70% of the population is going to be furious.
It's very confusing to know what people actually do think. There were lots who voted to remain because they were worried about their jobs. Their hearts aren't in it though. I was told by a reliable source that a car factory employing thousands would close if we leave the EU. They haven't yet but then we haven't left so far. It was that kind of fear stuff that was making people vote to remain. The other groups of my friends who were voting to Remain had holiday homes in France or Spain or didn't like the Tory right or Farage. I wouldn't assume that a new referendum would get a different result.
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  #1867  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
. I wouldn't assume that a new referendum would get a different result.
I would be happy to bet that when it happens it will.
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  #1868  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:35 PM
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On voting in elections (not the same as referendums) then I think you have 2 approaches. You could actively join a party to influence it's manifesto and/or campaign on issues you believe in. But the majority just passively vote. I firmly believe everyone should use their vote so I accept that this means many voting for a party they don't wholly agree with.

On this referendum then I think it should have been absolutely clear it was advisory but preceded by a Parliamentary debate that then produced a summary of arguments for and against with clear information on next steps.

On what happens now I believe the economic consequences should be taken seriously but we the people are probably limited to lobbying MPs on priorities, which to me are any action necessary to protect the poorest. As a pensioner I understand that counts against me.

Following from that I believe there must be a Parliamentary debate on framework for a) the withdrawal agreement and b) future relationship with the EU. I would really like there to be a full Parliamentary vote on the results on both, binding on the Government. Then we have a chance to, again, lobby MPs on what we want on these two fronts.
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  #1869  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
It astonishes me still how little brexiters understand what they voted for.
I should not bite, but maybe this is part of the reason :

from the BBC news page: "IMF's Lagarde to face trial over pay out court confirms"

Of course we should have listened to the IMF when they said exit would be a terrible blow to the UK. Why should we listen to such an organisation ? Not only are they potentially headed up by a crook, but they have poured continued misery on Greece and its people.

I object to your statement as you assume people voted to leave without thinking it through. Well I am sorry to burst your bubble but I certainly did and everybody I know who voted to leave also thought long and hard before they voted.

Some of those who voted to remain have been shown in their true colours, they just cannot accept a democratic decision. One of the worst cases I have heard on this comes from my aunt, she voted to leave and refuses to apologise to anybody for doing so. However her best friend who is 81 and voted out. When her two "grown up" children found out, her son refuses to speak to her again and is preventing her from seeing her grandchildren. Her daughter told her that she does not yet know if she can speak to her ever again and told her that she should have consulted with both her children before she voted and they were have told her to vote to stay put. How pathetic is this and sad.

I could go over a thousand reasons why I voted out and why I feel we are better out of the EU, but life's too short.

I will leave the last word to Peter Shore (oh how we need a politician of his standing today) when he spoke strongly about voting out when we had the previous referendum 40 odd years ago, but the reasoning is still relevant today.

Whatever you voted this is well worth a listen.

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  #1870  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Basically whatever happens, about 70% of the population is going to be furious.
Really ? Only four million could be bothered to vote online (relative to the one million plus who voted for Jeremy Clarkson to be reinstated to a pokey BBC2 car show). I think most people are just getting on with it. Obviously not a few on here, but that at least provide a catharsis for them.
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  #1871  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
It's very confusing to know what people actually do think. There were lots who voted to remain because they were worried about their jobs. Their hearts aren't in it though. I was told by a reliable source that a car factory employing thousands would close if we leave the EU. They haven't yet but then we haven't left so far. It was that kind of fear stuff that was making people vote to remain. The other groups of my friends who were voting to Remain had holiday homes in France or Spain or didn't like the Tory right or Farage. I wouldn't assume that a new referendum would get a different result.
Referendums are the device of dictators and demagogues, innit.
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  #1872  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:50 PM
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We'll be fine. Stop bed wetting.
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  #1873  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JDawg View Post
Remainers voted for a known outcome. Brexiters voted for anything other than a known outcome.

Given the the outcome is unknown, everyone could end up pissed off!

Yay. Genius
Lets have everything stay the same forever because of the fear of the unknown.

Yay. Genius.
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  #1874  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle-leg View Post
Lets have everything stay the same forever because of the fear of the unknown.

Yay. Genius.
Eh? That makes no sense at all. If something is unknown then take steps to learn more about it.

So no things don't necessarily have to stay the same at all. But if you want to change them then maybe you should first make a little effort.

Genius.
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  #1875  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by eagle-leg View Post
Lets have everything stay the same forever because of the fear of the unknown.

Yay. Genius.
But on the Referendum thread, posters supporting Leave said the EU had changed since '73 and was due to change more. So are you saying that Leavers voted against change & you support Remain.

I'm confused.
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  #1876  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
I'll only be conned if we never leave. I was asked 1 question - leave or stay. All the promises were just politician talk. You know, like the emergency budget and immediate tax rises we've just had? Oh.

Both sides lied. Both sides badly. I wasn't happy with how things were and wasn't provided with a good enough argument to stay that would satisfy my concerns.

It's a bit like voting Labour because you hate the Tories. You don't have to like or believe labour's mandate but you're just happy it not the Tory one.
Here's a thought. Why not ignore the politicians on both sides and look up the facts yourself? Then maybe you won't be so baffled, frightened or confused, and you could be certain that your choice was more than a leap in the dark.

I mean, if not that would be pretty thick don't you think?
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  #1877  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
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Stop being so reactionary.

I have many visionary friends (over 17 million of us) who foresee a bright long term future for the UK outside of the EU.



Or of course you could just continue to sulk.
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  #1878  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
But on the Referendum thread, posters supporting Leave said the EU had changed since '73 and was due to change more. So are you saying that Leavers voted against change & you support Remain.

I'm confused.
I'm a leaver mate... we all are.
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  #1879  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
I should not bite, but maybe this is part of the reason :

from the BBC news page: "IMF's Lagarde to face trial over pay out court confirms"

Of course we should have listened to the IMF when they said exit would be a terrible blow to the UK. Why should we listen to such an organisation ? Not only are they potentially headed up by a crook, but they have poured continued misery on Greece and its people.

I object to your statement as you assume people voted to leave without thinking it through. Well I am sorry to burst your bubble but I certainly did and everybody I know who voted to leave also thought long and hard before they voted.

Some of those who voted to remain have been shown in their true colours, they just cannot accept a democratic decision. One of the worst cases I have heard on this comes from my aunt, she voted to leave and refuses to apologise to anybody for doing so. However her best friend who is 81 and voted out. When her two "grown up" children found out, her son refuses to speak to her again and is preventing her from seeing her grandchildren. Her daughter told her that she does not yet know if she can speak to her ever again and told her that she should have consulted with both her children before she voted and they were have told her to vote to stay put. How pathetic is this and sad.

I could go over a thousand reasons why I voted out and why I feel we are better out of the EU, but life's too short.

I will leave the last word to Peter Shore (oh how we need a politician of his standing today) when he spoke strongly about voting out when we had the previous referendum 40 odd years ago, but the reasoning is still relevant today.

Whatever you voted this is well worth a listen.

To view the link you have to Register or Login
Tbh I thought I'd get a decent researched explanation but it's the same "EU corrupt must leave" bollocks, and the story on you aunt is repeatable, the young really feel betrayed on this, many many fallouts over it in families.
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  #1880  
Old 22-07-2016, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle-leg View Post
Stop being so reactionary.

I have many visionary friends (over 17 million of us) who foresee a bright long term future for the UK outside of the EU.



Or of course you could just continue to sulk.
He posted an event, you know, actual truth. Obviously that isn't happening in the utopia in your head though
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