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  #8061  
Old 29-09-2016, 11:33 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Miss Chief View Post
Personally, I don't think she is being antisemitic and she shouldn't lose her position, imo. However, her comment could be seen as 'why is the day dominated by Jewish remembrance?' Well, I suppose because they had the most victims. By far. She implies the Jewish people are bugsying the day, somehow, which simply isn't true. Every victim is remembered on the day. Maybe she hasn't attended what it is really like. Academia can be a bit theoretical at times. I think she should be more sensitive and informed, that's all. She might have said it to stimulate a session and test preconceptions or she might have not. Only she knows.

No, anti-Zionism is not automatically anti-semitic. Plenty of Jews around the world are anti-Zionist. Plenty don't like Israel. I have family who fit into that bracket but do get offended by verbal attacks and generalisations about Jewish people. Quite a broad bunch. Same as the broad synagogue that makes up the Labour Party. I see antisemitism as a general and specific abuse of people of the Jewish faith, imo, even those not practising. Many of those. Like a race. Their roots aren't in Zionism but Judaism from around the world. It encompasses culture, faith etc.

The Labour Party should be made up of everyone in my opinion. That also means she might not be keen on Zionist arguments but must be open to those who are. Like I've said before, I'd be more comfortable if some on the left stepped out of preconceptions and misconceptions about Israel/Palestine and step forward together. It's silly for such bright people to inherit a prescribed viewpoint about somewhere that evolves all the time like anywhere on the planet.

I heard The Friends of Israel stand was right at the entrance to the Labour conference. I thought Corbyn said it well.
Agree with a lot of this. However if you see, as I do, Israel as an apartheid state. Why is a Friends of Israel group in Labour, any better than a Friends of South Africa group, when it was an apartheid state?
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  #8062  
Old 29-09-2016, 11:43 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
I was at work, so not had the chance to watch it yet. I rather enjoyed this titbit from Twitter though

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You never have anything to say that is constructive. That's why you are like Ian Hislop. Constant snide posts, but with no guts to give your own opinion.
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  #8063  
Old 29-09-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Corbyn won't be able to cure the behaviour of every Momentum or hard left activist overnight. It will take time to clean the sewers of these anti-semites. He needs to be given a chance.
You make a very fair point here. However he needs to take action not just spout words. He's been fiddling at the edges of this issue for months now. Now is the time to take the bull by the horns and stamp it out.
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  #8064  
Old 29-09-2016, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Agree with a lot of this. However if you see, as I do, Israel as an apartheid state. Why is a Friends of Israel group in Labour, any better than a Friends of South Africa group, when it was an apartheid state?
Maybe because the vast majority of Labour members are not bigoted idiots like you, the stupidity of your remarks have already been discussed on this thread.
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  #8065  
Old 29-09-2016, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
I guessed you were. I will attempt to articulate what I sense Walker was attempting to do with the comments on the Holocaust Memorial Day (if nothing else it will keep Elgin amused)
In part the hierarchy of racism debate appears to me in attempting to bring a wider recognition to the atrocity of racism is bring a racist element to the argument. The holocaust of the second world war the treatment of Jews was met with world wide condemnation led to the creation of Israel. In so doing there is rightly a view that other atrocities have been ignored. Armenian Genocide has been discussed on here in the various debates. Walker is bringing to the debate the atrocity of slave trade and the deaths resulting from it the term Maafa to describe it was to quote Wiki popularised in the 90's. Its the how she is doing it that causes me concern , the slave trade and the jews quote is an example it looks like an attempt to bring anti semitism into the debate to achieve a greater recognition for the Maafa at the expense of the Shoah (personally I would use Holocaust , Shoah is a hebrew word and it could be argued it does not recognise the wider impact on others).
The stupidity of it is she is driving a divide that does not need to be there her own racism creating it. If she had gone into the meeting prepared she could of made the point and found a more receptive audience, Holocaust Memorial Day does cover not only WW2 but a number of genocides since, its not difficult to find out google it . She went in to a situation of her own creation and heightened the tensions with her comments. On there own as a standalone comment I might agree it was insensitive , I might have agreed with Miss Chief excellent post. Within the wider perspective of the previous comments I dont I find it just drives a greater divide and I can see them as anti Semitic. The comments on security I would put as another example of insensitivity lack of understanding of the issue but does she really not understand that many Muslim and Jewish communities have security at schools mosques synagogues to protect those that attend them from racist attacks , if she does not then she really has a lot of learning to do.
The "chief financiers" comment was out of order, and does come from exactly what you have said, a prejudice that has developed through the "hierarchy of oppression", mainly in the united states. While I can see why many black people get annoyed that the slave trade and other genocides against black people don't get nearly enough coverage, it is obviously unfortunate and wrong if this leads to a separate set of prejudices being developed. Indeed especially as there is a massive, and under reported issue of anti black racism in the Labour Party (and which is worse in other main stream political parties). The lack of black MPs is an obvious example. Which is why I think Heb was totally out of order when he down played this by saying that any racism other than anti semitism would be accepted as being the truth. That is far from the case.

I also get annoyed at people obviously using anti semitism as a point scoring exercise to hit corbyn over the head with. Lots of people aren't doing this and are raising genuine concerns. Others (such as Heb), aren't. And in doing so are actually undermining the fight against anti semitism.
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  #8066  
Old 29-09-2016, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
McLuskey apparently wants to boycott unite from working with the Guardian since they had the audacity to reveal the (true) story that he took 400k from the union to set himself up in a plush pad in Borough Market

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I have a lot of criticisms against general secretaries of the unions and think they should get the average wage of workers.

But the Guardian, who have NEVER supported a strike, aren't coming from a good stance, but just union bashing. Doesn't surprise me, as a private school, privileged smug tosser would want to join in with that though.
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  #8067  
Old 29-09-2016, 12:06 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Whataboutery alert... meanwhile, the Labour right are whipping up anti immigrant fears, right at the point of a hike in physical attacks on immigrants. Rachel Reeves has gone all Enoch Powell and I've just had the displeasure to read Jack Straw's latest thoughts on immigration, which he chose to share with the Daily Mail.
This is my issue with Heb and some others. They only focus on one thing, to undermine Corbyn. It's obvious there are cynically using the issue for their own political point scoring.
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  #8068  
Old 29-09-2016, 12:08 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Maybe because the vast majority of Labour members are not bigoted idiots like you, the stupidity of your remarks have already been discussed on this thread.
They were discussed but not in any way answered. Why is seeing Israel as an apartheid state bigoted? You can throw your toys out the pram son, but it doesn't make you right.

Palestinians are refused the right of return, and those in Gaza (and mostly in the West Bank) are refused any freedom of movement. An apartheid state is one which exists by the necessary oppression of another nation.
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  #8069  
Old 29-09-2016, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
I'm not seeing what you're seeing, Heb. Zionists did and still do have the knives out for Chakrabati. She's had tons of nasty abuse, as has Walker. People are allowed to say bad things about Zionism if they want and other people can argue back.
She's using Zionist as a synonym for Jew, no? Number one on the definition.

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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
It is not a question of sweeping anything under the carpet. We know anti-semitism exists within individuals in many groups and organisations, but I don't hear you going on about ex BNP members joining up with UKIP, where the real and endemic anti-Jewish problems exist. It isn't, and has never been a big problem in the Labour party. This is simply an over hyped avenue to attack Corbyn again. If the Jewish members of the party say the claims have been overhyped, then that is good enough for me, and should be good enough too for you, but no, this is just another way you can keep the negative flowing against your pet hate at the moment.
Eh. I've got some sympathy over the fact that there has been a laser-guided focus on anti-Semitism in the Labour party. The issue has been weaponised. Everyone should be able to see that. The sympathy stops when people claim there isn't an issue at all. Or that we've got to look at everyone else first. That sure looks like sweeping it under the carpet to me.

And I'm afraid to say I missed the group statement from the Jewish members of the party that there is no issue. In fact, I've missed all group statements from the Jewish members of the party...
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  #8070  
Old 29-09-2016, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You never have anything to say that is constructive. That's why you are like Ian Hislop. Constant snide posts, but with no guts to give your own opinion.
Ian Hislop is excellent.

And, if you read Private Eye, you'd realise he's apolitical.
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  #8071  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:00 PM
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It's not anti Semitic anything, but I'm not keen on the apartheid label. There are obviously apartheid like elements you can point to, but separation of the races isn't essential to Zionism, nor to the Israeli state, even if some Zionist nutters talk like it.

It is possible, say for a liberal Zionist, to genuinely believe an equitable two-state solution on land and water etc. is available. Many of them hate expansionist Zionists. Fair to say that the liberal view isn't exactly in the ascendant in Israeli politics at the moment!, but who's to guess how politics will develop in the future? One time butcher of the Arabs Shimon Peres was also the friend of peace blah blah.

In contrast, racial superiority, domination and exploitation was the whole point of Apartheid proper - once the Boers conceded on that, apartheid was gone.
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  #8072  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
An apartheid state is one which exists by the necessary oppression of another nation.
Let's not let everybody discuss all this again because it's boring as f*ck, but I haven't seen such a ridiculous understanding of a word since your frankly pathetic attempt to grasp the meaning of the word 'class' that one time. Sometimes you wonder why we even bother having words that mean certain things when we can just say whatever we want with whatever meaning we want. You absolute beret.
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  #8073  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
Ian Hislop is excellent.

And, if you read Private Eye, you'd realise he's apolitical.
He's not apolitical. He saves his most spiteful and patronising stuff for the politics he dislikes the most. He has also praised Vince Cable and the Lib Dems. But he rarely gives an opinion on anything.

He's an odious maggot. Goes on and on putting the knife in to political figures, but hasn't go the guts to give any opinions.
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  #8074  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by etu View Post
She's using Zionist as a synonym for Jew, no?
.
No.
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  #8075  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He's not apolitical. He saves his most spiteful and patronising stuff for the politics he dislikes the most. He has also praised Vince Cable and the Lib Dems. But he rarely gives an opinion on anything.

He's an odious maggot. Goes on and on putting the knife in to political figures, but hasn't go the guts to give any opinions.
Opinions? You not seen him on Question Time?
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  #8076  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:15 PM
daverambo2 daverambo2 is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
He's not apolitical. He saves his most spiteful and patronising stuff for the politics he dislikes the most. He has also praised Vince Cable and the Lib Dems. But he rarely gives an opinion on anything.

He's an odious maggot. Goes on and on putting the knife in to political figures, but hasn't go the guts to give any opinions.
He's a political satirist. That's his job.
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  #8077  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:16 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
It's not anti Semitic anything, but I'm not keen on the apartheid label. There are obviously apartheid like elements you can point to, but separation of the races isn't essential to Zionism, nor to the Israeli state, even if some Zionist nutters talk like it.

It is possible, say for a liberal Zionist, to genuinely believe an equitable two-state solution on land and water etc. is available. Many of them hate expansionist Zionists. Fair to say that the liberal view isn't exactly in the ascendant in Israeli politics at the moment!, but who's to guess how politics will develop in the future? One time butcher of the Arabs Shimon Peres was also the friend of peace blah blah.

In contrast, racial superiority, domination and exploitation was the whole point of Apartheid proper - once the Boers conceded on that, apartheid was gone.
What is essential to Israel, and what makes it apartheid in my view, is that it has to oppress another nation to exist. It has to deny the right of return, and also prevents freedom of movement of millions of Palestinians.

I actually think the nature of the apartheid state of Israel has been more extreme than South Africa. The equivalent would have been if the South African apartheid state had pushed a large percentage of the black population in to camps in neighbouring countries and refused them the right of return, kept the majority of the black population in ever smaller parcels of land which they weren't allowed to leave, and kept a small percentage of the black population in white areas but with second class status. While allowing mass white only migration to South Africa.

Then pretending they were ok with offering a black state as a two state solution on a basis that totally disadvantaged the black population (banned from having an army and many other basics that make up a state), while actually never intending to even allow that.
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Old 29-09-2016, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by EryrExile View Post
Let's not let everybody discuss all this again because it's boring as f*ck, but I haven't seen such a ridiculous understanding of a word since your frankly pathetic attempt to grasp the meaning of the word 'class' that one time. Sometimes you wonder why we even bother having words that mean certain things when we can just say whatever we want with whatever meaning we want. You absolute beret.
Another person throwing their toys out. Calm down sunshine.
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Old 29-09-2016, 01:18 PM
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Another person throwing their toys out. Calm down sunshine.
Irony. That's a good word.
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  #8080  
Old 29-09-2016, 01:19 PM
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He's a political satirist. That's his job.
It is, and I can find the way he goes about it pathetic. He's typical of that kind of political commentator. Sneering and patronising.
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