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  #201  
Old 18-01-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
The other thing that I am 'not liking' about the VAR is that as implemented it's just fuelling the pundit focus even more on these incidents themselves (the very use of VAR) and I can't see it's healthy or helpful. It is early days but I can't see the media backing off their new toy.
This.

Shearer's comments are basically displaying his own prejudice to the system, rather than showing any genuine analysis.
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  #202  
Old 18-01-2018, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cranesparkeagle View Post
Not forgetting level is onside. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt there suppposed to be something about clear daylight to be offside. That original decision looked poor to begin with
The offside law states any part of the body apart from the arms and hands is offside. Therefore it will be few times when the players are level. Clear daylight isn't mentioned.
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  #203  
Old 18-01-2018, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
I was pretty convinced (and still am) he did tug him back on the 'live replay' (if that makes sense). It wasn't just a resting hand. He pulled him and stopped his momentum. BUT he did then take half a step and go down. But that is just how I saw it. It's no surprise is it that VAR evidence still leads to different opinions.

Edit - I would probably add that if the Willan thing and the Morata thing were both dives warranting bookings then Wilf will attract a lot of VAR bookings unless he changes things.
Interesting. I didn't think Morata was impeded which is why I suspect the VAR will go with the original decision.

Wilf will need to ensure there is contact or he is impeded before he goes down rather than anticipating a foul.
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  #204  
Old 18-01-2018, 02:51 PM
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I am a supporter of VAR, but for it to succeed there has to be more clarity on the interpretation of the rules.

In both incidents last night there was contact, but not enough to bring the player down or substantially impede his progress. Shearer and company may say this entitles the player to go down to "win" the penalty. The only reason they did not try to justify Morata for doing this was the delay before he threw himself to the ground.

In both cases the player could have stayed on his feet but chose not to, so that surely means they were dives ? The question of whether an attacker deliberately trails a leg to induce the contact has also to be considered.

Until the criteria for these decisions are clearly defined there will always be disagreement
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  #205  
Old 18-01-2018, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
Unless I was seeing things he got booked for the dive and then went apes*** and got booked for dissent with another yellow card waved - and then a red.
You are probably right. Maybe I missed the second yellow being shown. The wider point though is whether things that happen during the period between an incident and the subsequent amendment of a decision on review are left to stand or wiped out.

For example, a player goes down in the box and the ref waves play on. The defending team breaks away and someone stops the counter-attack Puncheon style. The ref shows a red card. By this time someone watching the video in London says the incident in the box was a definite penalty.

Is the sent off player reprieved or does the red card stand?
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  #206  
Old 18-01-2018, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Raschic Ken View Post
You are probably right. Maybe I missed the second yellow being shown. The wider point though is whether things that happen during the period between an incident and the subsequent amendment of a decision on review are left to stand or wiped out.

For example, a player goes down in the box and the ref waves play on. The defending team breaks away and someone stops the counter-attack Puncheon style. The ref shows a red card. By this time someone watching the video in London says the incident in the box was a definite penalty.

Is the sent off player reprieved or does the red card stand?
I'd say if the red was for something like preventing a goal scoring opportunity, but wasn't dangerous, then it shouldn't stand. If it's a reckless studs up, feet off the ground, potential leg breaker then it should stand regardless. Unless it's against Craig Dawson.
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  #207  
Old 18-01-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Twilko View Post
I'd say if the red was for something like preventing a goal scoring opportunity, but wasn't dangerous, then it shouldn't stand. If it's a reckless studs up, feet off the ground, potential leg breaker then it should stand regardless. Unless it's against Craig Dawson.
That all sounds perfectly reasonable. Especially the last bit.
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  #208  
Old 18-01-2018, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
The offside law states any part of the body apart from the arms and hands is offside. Therefore it will be few times when the players are level. Clear daylight isn't mentioned.

Within the laws of the game there are also directives, longer than the Laws thanselve sometimes one of which I believe was one about clear daylight. May be thats now gone. Have to credit Moss for once on this one. He overrode his assistant and went to the pictures. Totally corrrect to do so
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  #209  
Old 18-01-2018, 05:31 PM
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Should listen to talk sport Adrian Durham is hysterical. The man changes his opinions more frequently than his underwear. He thinks Morata was fouled. Who are we to decided how much he was affected by hand on shoulder or how much Willian was affected by touch. But always says wilf always dives!! It's comically embarrassing. Its what happens when big teams get caught out i suppose.

Last edited by Lombardo's hair; 18-01-2018 at 05:41 PM.
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  #210  
Old 18-01-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
Interesting. I didn't think Morata was impeded which is why I suspect the VAR will go with the original decision.

Wilf will need to ensure there is contact or he is impeded before he goes down rather than anticipating a foul.
Bit concerned about your 2nd paragraph. Wilf as far as i am aware doesnt go down without any contact so thats a mute point. Howveasy he goes down when there is is debatable. It should also be noted that he is often impeded clipped and kicked where he doesn't go down. Noted such an occasion on Saturday he was obstructed clipped and had his shirt pulled before ref gave free kick for trip

Last edited by Lombardo's hair; 18-01-2018 at 05:50 PM.
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  #211  
Old 18-01-2018, 06:17 PM
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Morata was impeded by the defender holding his shoulder, if it was a Palace player our supporters would look at it differently, What happened after the initial contact is a separate incident.
Truth is that if you are fouled and manage to stay on your feet, its not a penalty,what a farce!

I am not a fan of Chelsea but I would have felt aggrieved if that was a Palace player.

Referees are as guilty as players and so much goes on in football that causes confusion,

When Palace played Brighton in the league a player I think his name is Sutter fouled and obstructed our players in his penalty area, yet was ignored,

Refs often quote the laws of the game but until they act correctly as they started to with holding and shirt pulling none of these issues will be resolved.
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  #212  
Old 18-01-2018, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PauLo View Post
Everyone was obsessed with goal line technology but that barely gets mentioned any more. I see VAR eventually going the same way. It's just new at the moment and on everyone's radar.
Goal-line technology is very simple. The whole of the ball crosses the whole of the line, or it doesn't.

VAR is still going to be objective to the person making the decision. Albeit that the opportunity exists to analyse the particular incident, it is still about opinion, not fact.

I am not sure it will solve anything and personally, I'd rather not have it.
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  #213  
Old 18-01-2018, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hughff View Post
This.

I cannot understand why VAR is even slightly controversial. It takes less time than most injury breaks. Furthermore, at its least effective, as in the Chelsea example, there is still the possibility of human error that the haters say they want.

However what it will do is eliminate the most egregious errors, like these:

Goal-line technology ensures that these incidents can no longer happen. We don't need VAR.
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  #214  
Old 18-01-2018, 07:21 PM
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If refs and linos consistently have their decisions overruled will they get dropped from the elite list? I suspect not!
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  #215  
Old 18-01-2018, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palacemetros View Post
Goal-line technology is very simple. The whole of the ball crosses the whole of the line, or it doesn't.

VAR is still going to be objective to the person making the decision. Albeit that the opportunity exists to analyse the particular incident, it is still about opinion, not fact.

I am not sure it will solve anything and personally, I'd rather not have it.
Isn't what you've stated completely wrong insofar as VAR can declare objectively whether it is offside, which we have already seen, and whether there's an objective wrong person sent off situation?

Therefore VAR will solve something and already has so in fact you should be sure VAR will solve something and will continue to do so.

And as a result, at least one mistake has been taken out of the game.

The fact that VAR will be subjective on penalties doesn't make the decision any worse than it would be if we didn't have VAR in the first place.
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  #216  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
Isn't what you've stated completely wrong insofar as VAR can declare objectively whether it is offside, which we have already seen, and whether there's an objective wrong person sent off situation?

Therefore VAR will solve something and already has so in fact you should be sure VAR will solve something and will continue to do so.

And as a result, at least one mistake has been taken out of the game.

The fact that VAR will be subjective on penalties doesn't make the decision any worse than it would be if we didn't have VAR in the first place.
I'll concede the point on offsides and sending off the wrong person but with the caveat that the latter is a very rare occurrence. Your last sentence confirms to me that in respect of subjective views on penalty decisions, I can't see why it is needed. You only have to look at the discussions about last night's penalty calls to see that VAR does nothing to clarify such decisions.
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  #217  
Old 19-01-2018, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by palacemetros View Post
I'll concede the point on offsides and sending off the wrong person but with the caveat that the latter is a very rare occurrence. Your last sentence confirms to me that in respect of subjective views on penalty decisions, I can't see why it is needed. You only have to look at the discussions about last night's penalty calls to see that VAR does nothing to clarify such decisions.
I agree. Also, we need to improve the technology and the way in which it is used on offsides if it's to be effective. The linesman should be able to make a decision one way or the other if he's certain and perhaps press a button for assistance on close ones. The answer then needs to come in more like 10 seconds than over a minute.

I also think the review of goals should be limited to say 10 seconds prior to the ball hitting the net rather than going back to the start of the move. My objection is that, as fans, we will never be certain a goal will stand, which will ruin the feeling when our team scores, because we won't know if there was something that happened up the other end that could get spotted. If we limit the review so that it's not much more than the final ball and the finish we will know whether it's dubious or a clear goal and usually be able to celebrate as usual.
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  #218  
Old 19-01-2018, 08:48 AM
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It will kill the fluidity that we all love.

What would be better would be for players and coaches in academies to be given sporting ethics lessons as one of the conditions of being categorised.
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  #219  
Old 19-01-2018, 09:13 AM
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It will kill the fluidity that we all love.

What would be better would be for players and coaches in academies to be given sporting ethics lessons as one of the conditions of being categorised.
Did you watch the stream of the Palace U21 (or similar age group) match last week?

You could hear one of the Palace coaches appealing for decisions and moaning at the ref all the time. Not a great role model in that regard and I expect it was counter productive as the officials probably just tuned him out.
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  #220  
Old 19-01-2018, 09:25 AM
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Did you watch the stream of the Palace U21 (or similar age group) match last week?

You could hear one of the Palace coaches appealing for decisions and moaning at the ref all the time. Not a great role model in that regard and I expect it was counter productive as the officials probably just tuned him out.
I just can’t believe how the football authorities have not outlawed all verbals aimed at the referee by players and coaches. The fact that we still have players running over to the ref and questioning everything is ridiculous- namely the ‘big 6’ and Bournemouth.
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