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  #22741  
Old Today, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
They’d be able to quite easily. Redundancy only needs to be offered if your job doesn’t exist, which it clearly will. If it does then it will come down to TUPE laws re: T&C’s. I reckon if Southern were looking to do this, then they’d ensure it would be watertight.
I’m not an expert but been through TUPE and Redundancy in recent years.
For me, when I was TUPE’d they were able to change my pay dates, bonus structure and other conditions offered. My previous hours were 9:30-5:30, the new place did 9-5:30. They were to stay the same for 2 years, but then it might be different for 2 years. There are laws in place about the location of where you’re based as well and how this could affect your commute.

Funnily enough, the person who does know a lot about this is probably Popester.
I think you both are talking uninformed simplistic rubbish to be honest .

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A contract of employment is a legal agreement between the employer and the employee. Its terms cannot lawfully be changed or varied by the employer without agreement from the employee (either individually or through a recognised trade union).

Where a trade union is recognised, negotiations to change contract terms should be through collective bargaining.

Your employer owes an implied contractual duty to explain clearly the effect of any change, for example a
change to wages or working hours.

Your employer should meet with affected employees, or the union where one is recognised, and explain their case for making the proposed change. Employees must be given time to consider the proposal as well as to suggest alternative ways of achieving the same result (for example if cost-saving is the aim, different cost-saving ideas).

Where the change involves removing a benefit, an employment tribunal is more likely to think your employer has acted fairly if it has offered something in return for the change, such as financial compensation, and given enough advance notice before the change takes effect.

An employee can decide to accept a change, and many terms of the contract are, of course, varied from time to time by mutual consent. For example, it is quite usual for pay to be varied (usually increased) on an annual basis.

A change to the contract must not leave an employee unable to perform the contract – for example, requiring an employee to relocate at extremely short notice with no payment of expenses.

The way your employer implements any contract change must not breach their duty not to behave in a way that damages mutual trust and confidence, or the implied duty of good faith.

Where changes are made to your contract, employers must give you written notification of the change within four weeks.

An unauthorised, one-sided variation will be a breach of the contract of employment, and the fact that the employer has given you notice of the change will not make it lawful. However, if you put up with the change without protesting, there is a good chance that you will be viewed as having implicitly accepted the change, losing your right to object to it.

You should consider regularly registering your opposition to the change (e.g. every month) and pursuing a claim in the employment tribunal for, say, unlawful deduction from wages.

In practice, a collective approach to this sort of dispute is often best, either via a group tribunal claim supported by your trade union, through protest and threatened industrial action, or by a combination of different approaches.

Sometimes, a change is so fundamental that it goes to the heart of the contract. A resignation in response to this kind of change could be a 'constructive dismissal'. However, resigning is clearly a very high-risk option, and usually only advisable when you have another job to go to.
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  #22742  
Old Today, 10:05 AM
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Was just talking to a chap who is well in with the union. I always thought that ACAS was like an arbitration sort of scenario, but apparentlt not. During the talks ASLEF and GTR weren't even in the same room.
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  #22743  
Old Today, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
I think you both are talking uninformed simplistic rubbish to be honest .

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A contract of employment is a legal agreement between the employer and the employee. Its terms cannot lawfully be changed or varied by the employer without agreement from the employee (either individually or through a recognised trade union).

Where a trade union is recognised, negotiations to change contract terms should be through collective bargaining.

Your employer owes an implied contractual duty to explain clearly the effect of any change, for example a
change to wages or working hours.

Your employer should meet with affected employees, or the union where one is recognised, and explain their case for making the proposed change. Employees must be given time to consider the proposal as well as to suggest alternative ways of achieving the same result (for example if cost-saving is the aim, different cost-saving ideas).

Where the change involves removing a benefit, an employment tribunal is more likely to think your employer has acted fairly if it has offered something in return for the change, such as financial compensation, and given enough advance notice before the change takes effect.

An employee can decide to accept a change, and many terms of the contract are, of course, varied from time to time by mutual consent. For example, it is quite usual for pay to be varied (usually increased) on an annual basis.

A change to the contract must not leave an employee unable to perform the contract – for example, requiring an employee to relocate at extremely short notice with no payment of expenses.

The way your employer implements any contract change must not breach their duty not to behave in a way that damages mutual trust and confidence, or the implied duty of good faith.

Where changes are made to your contract, employers must give you written notification of the change within four weeks.

An unauthorised, one-sided variation will be a breach of the contract of employment, and the fact that the employer has given you notice of the change will not make it lawful. However, if you put up with the change without protesting, there is a good chance that you will be viewed as having implicitly accepted the change, losing your right to object to it.

You should consider regularly registering your opposition to the change (e.g. every month) and pursuing a claim in the employment tribunal for, say, unlawful deduction from wages.

In practice, a collective approach to this sort of dispute is often best, either via a group tribunal claim supported by your trade union, through protest and threatened industrial action, or by a combination of different approaches.

Sometimes, a change is so fundamental that it goes to the heart of the contract. A resignation in response to this kind of change could be a 'constructive dismissal'. However, resigning is clearly a very high-risk option, and usually only advisable when you have another job to go to.
I've told you what happened to me when I went through it. So why would you say it's simplistic, uninformed rubbish.
I've actually been through it, and told you how it affected me and my terms of employment.

Another case of heads being buried in the sand.
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  #22744  
Old Today, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomo View Post
I've told you what happened to me when I went through it. So why would you say it's simplistic, uninformed rubbish.
I've actually been through it, and told you how it affected me.
Tupe works when a new company has recently taken over ( Within the first 2 years from what I read ) No case is exactly the same , Are you in a Union ? Were the changes done via collective bargaining and agreed by your Union etc ? the variations in contracts and are far to complex to give a one size fits all answer ..

This from ACAS

If the employer is proposing to dismiss and then offer re-engagement to 20 or more employees, the employer must follow the collective consultation procedures in the same way as if redundancies were involved.
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  #22745  
Old Today, 10:34 AM
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Have you been through a consultancy process before? I've been a rep on one. They are a bit of a joke. If the employer follows the process properly then there is not a lot the employees can do. Though if they don't follow it properly you can point that out and get a slightly better deal for the employees at risk.
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  #22746  
Old Today, 10:37 AM
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Have you been through a consultancy process before? I've been a rep on one. They are a bit of a joke.

Maybe our union will do a better job.
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  #22747  
Old Today, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racehorse-80s View Post
Tupe works when a new company has recently taken over ( Within the first 2 years from what I read ) No case is exactly the same , Are you in a Union ? Were the changes done via collective bargaining and agreed by your Union etc ? the variations in contracts and are far to complex to give a one size fits all answer ..

This from ACAS

If the employer is proposing to dismiss and then offer re-engagement to 20 or more employees, the employer must follow the collective consultation procedures in the same way as if redundancies were involved.
I worked for one of the biggest magazine publishers in the UK, and had to move to a business that was 6 years old because they took over some of the titles I've worked on.
30+ people were involved (in the end only 6 moved across.

If what LE and Mushroom have said, it sounds like they will give plenty of notice to the changes, and then it will be down to negotiations on certain conditions, but will be a lot easier to put through under TUPE, and I'm sure Southern will offer a bit of money to show that they understand the changes might have an affect.
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  #22748  
Old Today, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Have you been through a consultancy process before? I've been a rep on one. They are a bit of a joke. If the employer follows the process properly then there is not a lot the employees can do. Though if they don't follow it properly you can point that out and get a slightly better deal for the employees at risk.
yep - I know from bitter experience companies can generally get away with anything
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  #22749  
Old Today, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
Maybe our union will do a better job.
Well I found a technicality (with the assistance of an employment lawyer as it happens) and managed to get a better deal for our guys because there was a small risk that the employer would have been at risk of a larger exposure.

And let's be honest here, your union has not come across as as being particularly competent recently. But maybe they hide their competent people for some reason.
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  #22750  
Old Today, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Well I found a technicality (with the assistance of an employment lawyer as it happens) and managed to get a better deal for our guys because there was a small risk that the employer would have been at risk of a larger exposure.

And let's be honest here, your union has not come across as as being particularly competent recently. But maybe they hide their competent people for some reason.
I disagree personally , So far the union has done well , One minute people are saying we only get high pay and a 4 day week due to ASLEF then they accuse them of being incompetent and poor for the members .
Yes they could do better in the media but the Tory press are always going to berate us so it would be a waste of time .
The Union can only accept what their members vote for in a ballot .
3 rejections so far with the number rejecting increasing massively in the last ballot .
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  #22751  
Old Today, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Well I found a technicality (with the assistance of an employment lawyer as it happens) and managed to get a better deal for our guys because there was a small risk that the employer would have been at risk of a larger exposure.



And let's be honest here, your union has not come across as as being particularly competent recently. But maybe they hide their competent people for some reason.

My incompetent union has done ok for me so far, and has displayed morals when faced with the dark forces of the empire. We're like a small band of Jedi, incorruptible and pure of heart.


May the force be with you
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  #22752  
Old Today, 11:03 AM
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There is no doubt, ASLEF has done its members a lot of good, but over the last year, re OBS, I wouldn’t say they’ve been good. I still think a lot of members it is more about self-preservation than any moral high ground (not accusing anyone of here of thinking that, but from what I’ve seen on social media and other channels I think it’s a fair comment to make). I may be wrong.

From an outsiders perspective, it seems both Southern and ASLEF are as incompetent as each other. Trains are now running without Guards. ASLEF have managed to make this about Pay to the public, even if that’s not the main aim of these talks.

Hopefully things do get solved though and everyone is happy.
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Old Today, 11:13 AM
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Our union do a good job. Look at Wilkinson if you want someone to blame. In an ideal world someone would kneecap him so he could see the irony of his proposed actions from his wheelchair on the platform for the rest of his life.
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Old Today, 11:15 AM
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There is no doubt, ASLEF has done its members a lot of good, but over the last year, re OBS, I wouldn’t say they’ve been good. I still think a lot of members it is more about self-preservation than any moral high ground (not accusing anyone of here of thinking that, but from what I’ve seen on social media and other channels I think it’s a fair comment to make). I may be wrong.

From an outsiders perspective, it seems both Southern and ASLEF are as incompetent as each other. Trains are now running without Guards. ASLEF have managed to make this about Pay to the public, even if that’s not the main aim of these talks.

Hopefully things do get solved though and everyone is happy.

If you watched the press conference with Stephen Loyd, you would see all 3 agree it's not about pay... it doesn't matter how many times we say it, or turn down bonuses or big pay rises, some people will always think it's about pay... despite the evidence of the strike for industrial action going up from 52% to 74% when they offered more £££.
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Old Today, 11:18 AM
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If you watched the press conference with Stephen Loyd, you would see all 3 agree it's not about pay... it doesn't matter how many times we say it, or turn down bonuses or big pay rises, some people will always think it's about pay... despite the evidence of the strike for industrial action going up from 52% to 74% when they offered more £££.
Some people are too cynical for their own good. Or just gullible. All trains should have 2 staff members on them for numerous safety reasons.
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Old Today, 11:45 AM
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Meetings start at 15:00 today so I have been told.
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Old Today, 11:49 AM
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Lombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLombardo 888 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
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Some people are too cynical for their own good. Or just gullible. All trains should have 2 staff members on them for numerous safety reasons.
What about tube trains?
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Old Today, 12:01 PM
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Unions and Grayling neeting at 1500 today that was quick , If it breaks down the Strikes could be back on by tea time .
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Old Today, 12:27 PM
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What about tube trains?
All tube stations are manned and its what 1 minute on average between stations. Totally different environment
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