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  #181  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Raschic Ken View Post
That makes sense (and I think Jon Moss was right to let play go on the other night), but how long can the delay be? I saw a France game where a player was wrongly flagged offside about half way inside the opposition half. He was clean through, but the whistle went as the flag went up. In the same game France had a goal ruled out after a review because it was marginally offside.

If we're not careful you get to the point where the ref doesn't stop the game at all when the flag goes up.
What is the issue with the game continuing when the linesmen's flag goes up? Let the play continue until the next phase of play. Its easy to tell when a play is going to result in a shot so just continue until that point.
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  #182  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
I missed this in RT and only saw it after the match. It seems to me one of those that its perhaps more misleading when you watch the slow motion than it is in RT. I think that is why they area instructed to watch both. when making the decision. My verdict would have been that it was a penalty and there shouldn't have been a booking but I am not sure I would use the word 'obvious'. I can see why the ref might not be sure enough to award the penalty but I am less clear why he was certain enough to then book him for diving. Was that before the VAR results or a result of them?


Again I haven't studied it but I actually felt a bit sorry for Morata. I thought he was definitely tugged back by the defender in the box, took half a stride but then possibly 'deliberately' went down because he had been pulled back. So I think technically it was a penalty and possibly a dive Oh lordy, lordy what a mess. I assume the rules would say the game stops with the first instance and so he wouldn't get a booking but he should get a penalty. He got the yellow and went loopy about it and then I assume the second yellow was for dissent or abusive language? The dive booking seems a bit harsh because 'sometimes' when you get pulled back like that you aren't consciously diving to cheat but you know you can't get there and the legs go and so I wouldn't have booked him. On this occasion it was difficult to tell which it was. His appeal was fair enough because there was contact.

Pedro's dive, that he got away without a booking, was ridiculous and not sure what the VAR dude was at when that happened.
Morata did have a hand on his shoulder but there wasn't any push pr pull that normally happens, eg Sterling in Wilf's back. Morata then deliberately dived. The defender shouldn't have been stupid enough to put his hand on the shoulder but his actions weren't careless, reckless or excessive and didn't impede Morata. Therefore an excellent decision by the ref, especially for the second caution.

The Willian booking appeared to be done straight away by the ref with no need for a reference to VAR as he was certain and the VAR must have agreed there was no obvious error.

It would again be helpful if the ref could explain his decisions at the end of the game so all viewers can be educated.
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  #183  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
Morata did have a hand on his shoulder but there wasn't any push pr pull that normally happens, eg Sterling in Wilf's back. Morata then deliberately dived. The defender shouldn't have been stupid enough to put his hand on the shoulder but his actions weren't careless, reckless or excessive and didn't impede Morata. Therefore an excellent decision by the ref, especially for the second caution.

The Willian booking appeared to be done straight away by the ref with no need for a reference to VAR as he was certain and the VAR must have agreed there was no obvious error.

It would again be helpful if the ref could explain his decisions at the end of the game so all viewers can be educated.
I was pretty convinced (and still am) he did tug him back on the 'live replay' (if that makes sense). It wasn't just a resting hand. He pulled him and stopped his momentum. BUT he did then take half a step and go down. But that is just how I saw it. It's no surprise is it that VAR evidence still leads to different opinions.

Edit - I would probably add that if the Willan thing and the Morata thing were both dives warranting bookings then Wilf will attract a lot of VAR bookings unless he changes things.
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Last edited by Martin H; 18-01-2018 at 10:54 AM.
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  #184  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:48 AM
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Cant help thinking that VAR will not hep with the main decisions that have been affecting us most this season. In a nutshell., did he dive or washe pushed/pulled/tripped. Sort of a police case in a way. Pundits look at thes upside down, inside out, backwards, front on, you name it and still disagree among themselves. Till they decide on standards for what actually constitutes a foul these will keep happening. All the pundits are doing is muddying the waters. I think if the ref gets a 2nd look at it on a screen and makes his mind up thats the best we can hope for. Otherwise we could be there to 7 0 cl0ck on a saturday and none the wiser. I would lik to refer Mr Sutton to Bentekse fall against us for LIverpool a couple of years back and Owens fall to get a pen v Argentina, compare them with Zahas" worst dive ever" and compare and contrast. While people keep looking at these through both ends of the telescope it will be meaningless
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  #185  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:51 AM
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The other thing that I am 'not liking' about the VAR is that as implemented it's just fuelling the pundit focus even more on these incidents themselves (the very use of VAR) and I can't see it's healthy or helpful. It is early days but I can't see the media backing off their new toy.
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  #186  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunamiman View Post
What is the issue with the game continuing when the linesmen's flag goes up? Let the play continue until the next phase of play. Its easy to tell when a play is going to result in a shot so just continue until that point.
Well, it takes over a minute to come up with a decision. So in the meantime the game goes on and there could be fouls, bookings, goals etc and then someone says that it was offside a minute earlier after all. What happens then? Does the clock get re-set and everything that has happened since get wiped out?
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  #187  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin H View Post
I missed this in RT and only saw it after the match. It seems to me one of those that its perhaps more misleading when you watch the slow motion than it is in RT. I think that is why they area instructed to watch both. when making the decision. My verdict would have been that it was a penalty and there shouldn't have been a booking but I am not sure I would use the word 'obvious'. I can see why the ref might not be sure enough to award the penalty but I am less clear why he was certain enough to then book him for diving. Was that before the VAR results or a result of them?


Again I haven't studied it but I actually felt a bit sorry for Morata. I thought he was definitely tugged back by the defender in the box, took half a stride but then possibly 'deliberately' went down because he had been pulled back. So I think technically it was a penalty and possibly a dive Oh lordy, lordy what a mess. I assume the rules would say the game stops with the first instance and so he wouldn't get a booking but he should get a penalty. He got the yellow and went loopy about it and then I assume the second yellow was for dissent or abusive language? The dive booking seems a bit harsh because 'sometimes' when you get pulled back like that you aren't consciously diving to cheat but you know you can't get there and the legs go and so I wouldn't have booked him. On this occasion it was difficult to tell which it was. His appeal was fair enough because there was contact.

Pedro's dive, that he got away without a booking, was ridiculous and not sure what the VAR dude was at when that happened.
Pedro was booked, which is why he was sent off later on
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  #188  
Old 18-01-2018, 10:59 AM
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Everyone was obsessed with goal line technology but that barely gets mentioned any more. I see VAR eventually going the same way. It's just new at the moment and on everyone's radar.
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  #189  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:04 AM
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Spot on Cranesparkeagle. In football you are allowed to kick, trip, push or jump into people without it being a foul. In order for these to be a foul it has to be the opinion of the ref that it was done with carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force.

What you absolutely can not do is hold an opponent. To pull someone or a shirt, you must have hold.

Many pundits with their "there was contact so you can go down..." don't seem to be aware of the laws.

Last edited by dim; 18-01-2018 at 11:06 AM.
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  #190  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Fatboy View Post
They are assistant referees now you old fart.


Was close though. The AR needed to see the pass and check if the player is off-side. Cannot always do both at the same time.
Not forgetting level is onside. Correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt there suppposed to be something about clear daylight to be offside. That original decision looked poor to begin with
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  #191  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dim View Post
Spot on Cranesparkeagle. In football you are allowed to kick, trip, push or jump into people without it being a foul. In order for these to be a foul it has to be the opinion of the ref that it was done with carelessly, recklessly or with excessive force.

What you absolutely can not do is hold an opponent. To pull someone or a shirt, you must have hold.

Many pundits with their "there was contact so you can go down..." don't seem to be aware of the laws.
Not sure how literal you are intending to be above but you seem to be saying that it is not a foul if you push a player with your hands. Also I am not sure what you mean by must have hold. Are you saying that if I stop a player from getting a ball by tugging his shoulder rather than grappling my arms around him as he moves away that's not a foul. Weird because they give that every Saturday. I do agree that some contact is allowed (and should be) and that the pundits no doubt don't know the rules well but I am not sure if I am reading the rest correctly.

I can never find the rules or the right section but perhaps have a look later.
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  #192  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:21 AM
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I am saying the other group of potential fouls are all about the opinion of the ref wrt force, carelessness or recklessness.

Holding is an absolute no-no. So tugging involves holding and is a deffo foul. The others are opinion and only the ref's counts.

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be
careless, reckless or using excessive force:
• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
• jumps at an opponent
• charges an opponent
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
• pushes an opponent
• tackles an opponent

A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following three offences:
• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

Last edited by dim; 18-01-2018 at 11:28 AM.
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  #193  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dim View Post
I am saying the other group of potential fouls are all about the opinion of the ref wrt force, carelessness or recklessness.

Holding is an absolute no-no. So tugging involves holding and is a deffo foul. The others are opinion and only the ref's counts.
thx
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  #194  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:27 AM
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I think the Morata one was both a foul and a dive. A classic case of needing to fall over in order to get the right decision from the ref, because they hardly ever give fouls unless someone hits the deck.

The other interesting thing is that he got booked for diving and then sent off (presumably a straight red as I didn't see a second yellow shown) for dissent. Presumably, if the original decision had been overturned on review, the red card would have stood?
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  #195  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PauLo View Post
Everyone was obsessed with goal line technology but that barely gets mentioned any more. I see VAR eventually going the same way. It's just new at the moment and on everyone's radar.

Goal line technology asks one question only and is cut and dried. It also takes mere seconds so the ball can barely be cleared out the box before the bleep comes in
VAR could be asked untold questions. TBA after Bristol a few years back goal line technology was the only thing I wanted. I thinks refs assistants(why arent they ever assisting btw) and pundits need to bone up on what actually is a foul
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  #196  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:30 AM
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Out of the whole game holding is the easiest foul to determine absolutely and appears to be the least enforced.




Last edited by dim; 18-01-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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  #197  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Raschic Ken View Post
I think the Morata one was both a foul and a dive. A classic case of needing to fall over in order to get the right decision from the ref, because they hardly ever give fouls unless someone hits the deck.

The other interesting thing is that he got booked for diving and then sent off (presumably a straight red as I didn't see a second yellow shown) for dissent. Presumably, if the original decision had been overturned on review, the red card would have stood?
Unless I was seeing things he got booked for the dive and then went apes*** and got booked for dissent with another yellow card waved - and then a red.
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  #198  
Old 18-01-2018, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tsunamiman View Post
What is the issue with the game continuing when the linesmen's flag goes up? Let the play continue until the next phase of play. Its easy to tell when a play is going to result in a shot so just continue until that point.
Wtf
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  #199  
Old 18-01-2018, 12:05 PM
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Posted this a few weeks ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirby View Post
The only thing they can really use it for is blatant offsides that lead to goals or blatant acts of violence off the ball.

If the VAR starts flagging up random fouls/potential handballs then we'll have a hundred stoppages per game.

They'll still manage to get the decisions wrong even after spending an age watching a replay, which is why it can only be used for definite offsides that lead directly to goals or off the ball acts of violence IMO.

It just doesn't work on matters of opinion.
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  #200  
Old 18-01-2018, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PauLo View Post
Everyone was obsessed with goal line technology but that barely gets mentioned any more. I see VAR eventually going the same way. It's just new at the moment and on everyone's radar.
Eh? VAR is nothing at all like goal line tech. Mainly -

Speed - Goal line tech is virtually instant.
Clarity - Did it go over the line or not? Yes or no. Thatís it.

I think the next thing to come will be a tech similar to what they use on the goal line but for offsides. That will also be good as itís clear cut - was the player offside or not?

VAR on fouls just shows up that this is a game where a foul is not exactly clear.
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