Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS » Other Sport » World of Football

Notices

World of Football All non Palace football talk - includes latest scores on Internationals and matches that affect palace.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #221  
Old 19-01-2018, 08:50 AM
cpfc4evandeva's Avatar
cpfc4evandeva cpfc4evandeva is offline
Heshlo Kitty
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 23,689
Rep Power: 21474849
cpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is herecpfc4evandeva Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Did you watch the stream of the Palace U21 (or similar age group) match last week?

You could hear one of the Palace coaches appealing for decisions and moaning at the ref all the time. Not a great role model in that regard and I expect it was counter productive as the officials probably just tuned him out.
That’s changed. I had a mate who worked at the Academy a few years ago, so I went along to the odd U16 or U18 game with him back then. Palace coaches virtually never moaned at the ref and you would only ever hear them shout instructions at Palace players. I asked my mate about the coaches not having a go at the ref after an obvious mistake, and he said there was a policy within the club that the coaches should not shout at the ref.

It’s disappointing to hear that this has possibly changed. I remember going to one of the games against West Ham and their coach was a complete prick, moaning throughout and put them in a bad light imo.
Reply With Quote
  #222  
Old 19-01-2018, 10:34 AM
viking's no1's Avatar
viking's no1 viking's no1 is offline
former Palace Guard
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: In The Village
Posts: 3,224
Rep Power: 21474855
viking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by palacemetros View Post
I'll concede the point on offsides and sending off the wrong person but with the caveat that the latter is a very rare occurrence. Your last sentence confirms to me that in respect of subjective views on penalty decisions, I can't see why it is needed. You only have to look at the discussions about last night's penalty calls to see that VAR does nothing to clarify such decisions.
So you've agreed VAR is good for offsides and mistaken identity although you've included an odd caveat that it's a rare occurance for the latter. I'd suggest it's about getting the correct decision so the caveat is irrelevant.

On the subjective penalty decisions, if we want more wrong decisions to be right in a game and if the basis of VAR is to get more decisions right - which it is - then just overturning one wrong decision in a season means it is needed to help get that decision ultimately right.

VAR will not clarify all decisions to the satisfaction of everybody as everybody will not agree on every decision all of the time anyway, but it will clarify some to the extent that it changes the on field ref's original decision.

Turning to Willian dive, having now looked at it from a new angle, I'd say he didn't dive but I can see why neither the ref nor VAR gave the penalty. But if VAR wasn't there, the decision would still have been the same. The answer is to make VAR better, not get rid.
Reply With Quote
  #223  
Old 19-01-2018, 10:44 AM
viking's no1's Avatar
viking's no1 viking's no1 is offline
former Palace Guard
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: In The Village
Posts: 3,224
Rep Power: 21474855
viking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair View Post
Bit concerned about your 2nd paragraph. Wilf as far as i am aware doesnt go down without any contact so thats a mute point. Howveasy he goes down when there is is debatable. It should also be noted that he is often impeded clipped and kicked where he doesn't go down. Noted such an occasion on Saturday he was obstructed clipped and had his shirt pulled before ref gave free kick for trip
I think my point still stands because I think I remember Wilf going down in anticipation of a dangerous tackle. I think it's unfair on the striker to have to at best hurdle the mistimed challenge or instead take a direct hit but it's caused by refs not giving penalties for careless tackles or attempts to trip.
Reply With Quote
  #224  
Old 27-01-2018, 08:51 PM
Woosie's Avatar
Woosie Woosie is offline
Jolene Jolene Jolene...
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: A POSITIVE individual bursting out of a bubble
Age: 25
Posts: 14,922
Rep Power: 21474846
Woosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is here
Bump. This doesn't seem to take into account the impact on people who actually go to games, does it?
__________________
https://twitter.com/PalaceYouth

www.itsoktotalk.wordpress.com

'it would be boring if they won every time right?'

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die, to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
Reply With Quote
  #225  
Old 27-01-2018, 08:53 PM
M3 Eagle M3 Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 973
Rep Power: 7534478
M3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietM3 Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Not at all. It's ruining the game for those that pay to go to watch it.
Reply With Quote
  #226  
Old 27-01-2018, 09:18 PM
dim dim is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,607
Rep Power: 21474848
dim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is here
I would rather get rid of all of the cameras and rely on the refs and clubs to encourage their players to be sporting th.
Reply With Quote
  #227  
Old 27-01-2018, 09:26 PM
cranesparkeagle's Avatar
cranesparkeagle cranesparkeagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Surbiton
Age: 57
Posts: 10,049
Rep Power: 21444257
cranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietcranesparkeagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
All thats been shown to the world tonight is that Bobby Madley is incapable of making a decision which I think us Palace fans already knew.
Reply With Quote
  #228  
Old 27-01-2018, 09:46 PM
JDawg's Avatar
JDawg JDawg is offline
Safe European Home
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 9,869
Rep Power: 21474845
JDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is hereJDawg Sam the man is here
The concept to support VAR is that millions have a netter view than the ref because of the TV feed.

So we have VAR. A fraction of the coverage that TV viewers have an in a van a long way away. How does this achieve anything?

The concept is sound. The execution is a joke. Whoever dreamed up the plan is a ****wit.
Reply With Quote
  #229  
Old 27-01-2018, 10:20 PM
Ruskin Old Boy's Avatar
Ruskin Old Boy Ruskin Old Boy is offline
Golden Oldie
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Camberwell
Age: 70
Posts: 90,833
Rep Power: 21474855
Ruskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is hereRuskin Old Boy Sam the man is here
Nail on head from Danny Baker:

Reply With Quote
  #230  
Old 27-01-2018, 10:23 PM
Woosie's Avatar
Woosie Woosie is offline
Jolene Jolene Jolene...
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: A POSITIVE individual bursting out of a bubble
Age: 25
Posts: 14,922
Rep Power: 21474846
Woosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is hereWoosie Sam the man is here
It also makes it harder to judge when the game will finish - what about if you have a train to catch for example
__________________
https://twitter.com/PalaceYouth

www.itsoktotalk.wordpress.com

'it would be boring if they won every time right?'

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die, to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
Reply With Quote
  #231  
Old 27-01-2018, 10:29 PM
Leap of faith's Avatar
Leap of faith Leap of faith is offline
Gigi
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Redhill
Age: 46
Posts: 2,146
Rep Power: 5330319
Leap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLeap of faith came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Each team should get 2 appeals per game, only when they appeal should it go to VAR
Reply With Quote
  #232  
Old 27-01-2018, 10:30 PM
dim dim is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 6,607
Rep Power: 21474848
dim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is heredim Sam the man is here
It's all wank, no happy ending.
Reply With Quote
  #233  
Old 27-01-2018, 10:47 PM
Dorking .Eagle's Avatar
Dorking .Eagle Dorking .Eagle is online now
Collecting Palace tat
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dorking, Surrey
Posts: 24,253
Rep Power: 21474855
Dorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is hereDorking .Eagle Sam the man is here
I'm not a fan. We're told that the ref will make a rectangle sign, but half the time he just holds his finger to his earpiece.

If they insist on bringing this in permanently, then in my opinion it is time to trust the fans to be allowed to see the replays of the incidents in question on the big screen(s). As it is, the paying fans in the stadium are getting a massively inferior experience to the tv viewer at home
__________________
"Crystal Palace is cult viewing, like a late night TV show that only a few people know about, like a precious record that was never number one but makes everybody who knows it want to dance and sing… and sometimes cry." Tony, 3-7-2001

"Well, as I said before, we are only 6 points behind 4th from bottom with the prize of an additional £65 million (minimum) if we stay up. So, we'd be bonkers if that wasn't the top priority. Nobody's giving up on staying in this league." CPFC2010, 5-11-2013
Reply With Quote
  #234  
Old 27-01-2018, 11:20 PM
st albans's Avatar
st albans st albans is offline
it's a city you know...
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: St Albans (unsurprisingly)
Posts: 14,978
Rep Power: 21474851
st albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is herest albans Sam the man is here
I was told the finger to the ear is the official sign
__________________
I still think Adebola was a good signing...
Reply With Quote
  #235  
Old 27-01-2018, 11:56 PM
viking's no1's Avatar
viking's no1 viking's no1 is offline
former Palace Guard
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: In The Village
Posts: 3,224
Rep Power: 21474855
viking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is hereviking's no1 Sam the man is here
They just need to make VAR better by having the big screens show the incidents at games and have the ref/VAR talk through the incident so everyone can hear it. It's appalling that the very people who pay to be at the game have no idea why the decision was changed, or not, whereas everyone else does.

The decisions made are the right ones - it's just the way they're communicated that needs to be changed, and sufficient time to be added on.
Reply With Quote
  #236  
Old 28-01-2018, 12:04 AM
Salad_Burnet Salad_Burnet is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Age: 40
Posts: 2,061
Rep Power: 19917931
Salad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietSalad_Burnet came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
I just don't understand where this has come from. No-one was clamouring for it, there was none of the usual witless sarcasm from Mark Lawrenson about it, none of the ref bores had heard of it - then it just happens.

I just don't get it. What's wrong with the law of averages?
__________________
"Pardew and that s**** little London cornershop club are irrelevant and can f*** off."
Reply With Quote
  #237  
Old 28-01-2018, 12:27 AM
penguin7's Avatar
penguin7 penguin7 is offline
Semi retired idiot
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Suffolk
Age: 62
Posts: 1,069
Rep Power: 4932014
penguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietpenguin7 came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
They just need to make VAR better by having the big screens show the incidents at games and have the ref/VAR talk through the incident so everyone can hear it. It's appalling that the very people who pay to be at the game have no idea why the decision was changed, or not, whereas everyone else does.

The decisions made are the right ones - it's just the way they're communicated that needs to be changed, and sufficient time to be added on.
Spot on. VAR enabled 3 correct decisions today, and if used in all the FA Cup games would have reversed 3 or 4 more. But changes to the system must be made.

The pitchside screen is a time wasting nonsense. The on field referee must accept that a decision by his VAR colleague with the benefit of slowmo and replays has far more relevance than his own opinion formed in real time.

The fans in the stadium should be able to watch exactly what the VAR referee is looking at, and be informed of the reasons behind his decision.

Instead of frustration among the fans not knowing what was going on, the whole procedure would be a piece of theatre adding to the emotion rather than destroying it. Much the same as the DRS system does in cricket.
__________________
If you find that you are in a slight depression in the ground it is best to put down the shovel

Last edited by penguin7; 28-01-2018 at 12:33 AM. Reason: .
Reply With Quote
  #238  
Old 28-01-2018, 12:43 AM
Lombardo's hair Lombardo's hair is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Carshalton
Posts: 5,750
Rep Power: 21474845
Lombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is hereLombardo's hair Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet View Post
I just don't understand where this has come from. No-one was clamouring for it, there was none of the usual witless sarcasm from Mark Lawrenson about it, none of the ref bores had heard of it - then it just happens.

I just don't get it. What's wrong with the law of averages?
There is a point to it . How many times have we been on wrong end of blatantly wrong decisions in our history. The Freddie Sears goal at Bristol city. The goal v Terry Venabes Leeds in a cup tie. The numerous pens we should have had v Norwich in 2004. I think it was 2004....ended 3 3. The problem is that it is not utilised properly. If it is not clear cut then refs decision should be accepted and it should be shown in stadium. I also think it should be down to appeals by manager and limited to 2 each half and if appeal successful kept. I think if a player claims he has been hit in face ref should review and if proven to be lying he should be sent off for attempting to deceive official
Reply With Quote
  #239  
Old 28-01-2018, 03:26 AM
OneSize OneSize is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,121
Rep Power: 1990347
OneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineOneSize : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair View Post
There is a point to it . How many times have we been on wrong end of blatantly wrong decisions in our history. The Freddie Sears goal at Bristol city. The goal v Terry Venabes Leeds in a cup tie. The numerous pens we should have had v Norwich in 2004. I think it was 2004....ended 3 3. The problem is that it is not utilised properly. If it is not clear cut then refs decision should be accepted and it should be shown in stadium. I also think it should be down to appeals by manager and limited to 2 each half and if appeal successful kept. I think if a player claims he has been hit in face ref should review and if proven to be lying he should be sent off for attempting to deceive official
Two of your three examples would not be dealt with by VAR so pretty pointless argument. In regards to the pens, what about the Tommy Black dive against wallsall. It's swings and roundabouts. The time delay in yesterday game killed the emotion for the rest of the first half.
Reply With Quote
  #240  
Old 28-01-2018, 04:02 AM
hughff's Avatar
hughff hughff is offline
C. Palace 1 Oxford U. 0
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Napier, New Zealand
Age: 53
Posts: 11,593
Rep Power: 21474855
hughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is herehughff Sam the man is here
I simply cannot understand how anyone can be against VAR. There is literally no sensible reason to oppose it. It is vastly superior to the ref guessing and getting it wrong. It adds no more time than an injury break.

I assume it' simply inertia and ignorance to knock VAR. For example, OneSize is completely wrong in that all the instances Lomardo's hair indicated were VAR eligible as each was goal or penalty related. And despite what Salad_Burnet thinks, there is no law of averages balancing things out, especially in cup games when you get knocked out with a single mistake. That's something people say because it seems to make sense but in reality it is a logical fallacy.
__________________
Crystal Ball Champion 2013/14.

If you wish to follow a football club based on their success then you could not view yourself as a supporter ... you are merely a customer. - Mat ov CPFC.

Don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgement and it seems to me that I can hear God saying to America, "You are too arrogant." - Martin Luther King
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.