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  #281  
Old 14-07-2018, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by weltklasse View Post
I have to laugh at posts like this. Not that i think Southgate is the best manager in the world or anything. But blaming it all on the managers is missing the point by a country mile. A disgrace really.
Of course its the managers fault. You only have to look at the difference of a managerial change can make to a club team. Do you dispute that point, or would you like me to list a few examples? If you have an open mind and listen to what a lot of the ex-players have to say i.e. Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and Ferdinand, all them indicated the managers simply weren't up to it. They are players used to playing for top managers and probably turned up at England training thinking WTF is this guy on about.

I just don't buy the players aren't good enough BS. Kane was top scorer in the most competitive league in the world last year. Sterling scored 23 goals and had 17 assists. Alli scored 14 and had 17 assists. Even Lingard scored 13 and had 7 assists in a season where he came a lot off the bench.

And yet its not a disaster of epic proportions that we only managed to score 3 goals in 7 games from open play? To say the players aren't good enough is ridiculous.
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  #282  
Old 14-07-2018, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet View Post
We desperately need a midfielder with some charisma.
If only Robbie Savage was 10 years younger and English...
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  #283  
Old 15-07-2018, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
Wish I could of summed it up that well. Our Gareth is sadly a substandard manager for a top international team and we'll never do anything with him in charge. The reason why we can't keep the ball against better teams isn't because we don't have the players capable, its the system, tactics and patterns of play aren't up to scratch. England will continue to underachieve all the time we appoint dinosaurs or substandard managers. With the exception of Capello who was an inflexible dinosaur, we haven't appointed a top level manager with the requisite level of achievement that we should expect to have for an England manager since Venables.

The FA are a disgrace for failing to give our players a manager of the required quality and experience to perform at their optimum.
No, it's mainly the players. They're not good enough technically to keep the ball in good team's halves or force openings. You could bring Pep in and he couldn't turn Henderson into Modric or Lingard into Silva (although I'm sure he could help them improve)

Southgate actually did a good job of minimising these weaknesses while capitalising on ways England could hurt teams (dead ball situations, Tripper's delivery). This was really only effective against poor or average competition, but considering it helped carry the team to a semi-final, you can't be too mad.
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  #284  
Old 15-07-2018, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
Of course its the managers fault. You only have to look at the difference of a managerial change can make to a club team. Do you dispute that point, or would you like me to list a few examples? If you have an open mind and listen to what a lot of the ex-players have to say i.e. Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard and Ferdinand, all them indicated the managers simply weren't up to it. They are players used to playing for top managers and probably turned up at England training thinking WTF is this guy on about.

I just don't buy the players aren't good enough BS. Kane was top scorer in the most competitive league in the world last year. Sterling scored 23 goals and had 17 assists. Alli scored 14 and had 17 assists. Even Lingard scored 13 and had 7 assists in a season where he came a lot off the bench.

And yet its not a disaster of epic proportions that we only managed to score 3 goals in 7 games from open play? To say the players aren't good enough is ridiculous.
If England had a midfielder of the quality of Eriksson, De Bryne or Pogba you would have a point. Nonsense to blame Southgate. He done ok with the players at his disposal.
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  #285  
Old 15-07-2018, 12:30 AM
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Some great analysis and thought provoking opinions on this thread. Many thanks
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  #286  
Old 15-07-2018, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by gilesy14 View Post
Only on the BBS could you get people calling for the manager to leave after our best tournament in 26 years & claiming the guy who is about to win the golden boot should be cast aside as he did nothing. Mind blowing.
I think some people are not taken in by the other extreme that Gareth Southgate is the best manager ever, and just don’t know how to express that without the standard ‘he is shit!’ That’s the internet for you - black or white, legend or loser. It’s tiring, but the BBS just mirrors other social media sites really.

Is Southgate a great manager? I don’t think so but he’s done a good job with this England side, and based simply on finishing 4th in the World Cup, he has overachieved.
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  #287  
Old 15-07-2018, 07:42 AM
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How can anybody be critical of England at this WC? they have achieved way beyond expectations thanks initally to a "kind" group and games that followed, unfortunately but not unexpected when it came to the crunch and having to face the "better" teams, we got found out.
Moving forward i would say we are very close to having a solid well balanced team but possibly lacking in Three areas. If Gareth continues to play a Back Three then we need a more consistent Right sided defender as Walker tends to be a "complacent" player who tends to dwell on the ball and concedes posession too easily. The Midfield looks fine on paper with good young players, but at this level and to win tournaments it needs a Playmaker controlling and dictating play, such a pity that Both Wilshire and Barkley lost their way as they would have been the icing on the cake. Finally if we can add a "jack in the box" striker to complement Kane but also aid with the goalscoring would be a real bonus and complete the team.
As for the Manager we have unearthed a gem in Gareth Southgate, not necessarilly for his footballing/tactical brain but he will get better with experience at this level, it's more his man management and ability crucially into getting the best out of his players by treating them with respect, rather than by bullying tactics shows it works better.
His bosses need to now show patience and give him his head to experiment and develop the exciting Young England teams that are coming through, and in 2/3 years we will start to reap the rewards.
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  #288  
Old 15-07-2018, 08:56 AM
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If future WC's have similarly unbalanced draws, it might make for entertainment as some good teams crash out, but the shrewd coaches will start gaming the system (as Southgate did, deliberately or by accident). I am surprised that the "victims" of this haven't kicked up with FIFA.

I see Jose Mourinho has become (the surprising) 'boy in the crowd' pointing out that Sterling has no clothes. So far, no comment from Guardiola.

Southgate's decision to keep playing a totally ineffective Vardy (with a minimum workrate), is inexplicable given Southgate's age fetish - has anyone got an explanation ?

Have the young, half-baked players really benefitted from this "tournament exposure" ? Pickford and Trippier have shown well, and Maguire/Stones have shown some potential, but the rest (including Kane), have mostly shown inadequacies, doubtful "tournament temperament" and declining confidence.
Not convinced that filling the team with this years' "flavour of the month" young players is any more than a gimmick. Very few Palace fans would have picked Ruben for the squad, because he is simply not ready yet.
Of course, for Southgate, they are much easier to handle.
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  #289  
Old 15-07-2018, 09:46 AM
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I don't think Southgate 'gamed' the system because I doubt we would have beaten Belgium regardless. If we had, I reckon we'd have beaten Japan then lost to Brazil in the quarter finals, at which point we'd all have been disappointed but also probably thought that we had done OKAY to get that far.

Also - our half of the draw only looks unbalanced in hindsight because Germany failed to get out of their group and Spain lost to Russia

Last edited by firesign; 15-07-2018 at 11:41 AM.
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  #290  
Old 15-07-2018, 09:57 AM
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Best thing about this world cup is that the losses to Croatia and Belgium give a sense of realism as to where the team is. We just aren't a top 5 team yet and I think the Southgate has won all the games which we should of won, which is fairly unusual unfortunately for an England team.
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  #291  
Old 15-07-2018, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by beveling8 View Post
Best thing about this world cup is that the losses to Croatia and Belgium give a sense of realism as to where the team is. We just aren't a top 5 team yet and I think the Southgate has won all the games which we should of won, which is fairly unusual unfortunately for an England team.
At least it should keep the media from raising expectations unhelpfully.
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  #292  
Old 15-07-2018, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LuieJack View Post
How can anybody be critical of England at this WC? they have achieved way beyond expectations thanks initally to a "kind" group and games that followed, unfortunately but not unexpected when it came to the crunch and having to face the "better" teams, we got found out.
Moving forward i would say we are very close to having a solid well balanced team but possibly lacking in Three areas. If Gareth continues to play a Back Three then we need a more consistent Right sided defender as Walker tends to be a "complacent" player who tends to dwell on the ball and concedes posession too easily. The Midfield looks fine on paper with good young players, but at this level and to win tournaments it needs a Playmaker controlling and dictating play, such a pity that Both Wilshire and Barkley lost their way as they would have been the icing on the cake. Finally if we can add a "jack in the box" striker to complement Kane but also aid with the goalscoring would be a real bonus and complete the team.
As for the Manager we have unearthed a gem in Gareth Southgate, not necessarilly for his footballing/tactical brain but he will get better with experience at this level, it's more his man management and ability crucially into getting the best out of his players by treating them with respect, rather than by bullying tactics shows it works better.
His bosses need to now show patience and give him his head to experiment and develop the exciting Young England teams that are coming through, and in 2/3 years we will start to reap the rewards.
Expectations were low because we have been poor. Because we lost to Iceland in Euros. The inexperienced team tag helped to lower expectations. A good performance and a late winner ve Tunisia gave us a lift. The crazy antics of Panama if looking to play the man rather than the ball made us feel good as we qualified for next round. We lose to Belgium but get an easier draw. Hope rises. We play Columbia who again like Panama are more interested in the man than the ball. They then wake up and we scrape through on penalties. Bliss. We've won a WC shoot out. We beat Sweden who realistically we're unlucky as Pickford made excellent save. But in the Tunisia Colunbia and Sweden games we faded in the second half. The same happened v Croatia. Southgate did not know how to address this issue. When turning to his subs he brought on the same old same old. The limitations we're exposed both in the players and the manager. We got excited because of the results but the performances were not high standard or convincing. The problem is the media got over excited as per usual. Henderson Sterling Young Alli all poor. Alli has been poor all season despite his stats. And sterling 2 goals in 40+ internationals! Henderson can only pass sideways....over hits forward passes.Young is just average. There was no real width. Wingers need to be pacey and skillful. We didn't have one. Sterling is just pacey. Why we didn't take sessegnon with us is a mystery. At least try him in a friendly ffs. Yes they got further than expected but performance was not above expectations
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  #293  
Old 15-07-2018, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair View Post
Expectations were low because we have been poor. Because we lost to Iceland in Euros. The inexperienced team tag helped to lower expectations. A good performance and a late winner ve Tunisia gave us a lift. The crazy antics of Panama if looking to play the man rather than the ball made us feel good as we qualified for next round. We lose to Belgium but get an easier draw. Hope rises. We play Columbia who again like Panama are more interested in the man than the ball. They then wake up and we scrape through on penalties. Bliss. We've won a WC shoot out. We beat Sweden who realistically we're unlucky as Pickford made excellent save. But in the Tunisia Colunbia and Sweden games we faded in the second half. The same happened v Croatia. Southgate did not know how to address this issue. When turning to his subs he brought on the same old same old. The limitations we're exposed both in the players and the manager. We got excited because of the results but the performances were not high standard or convincing. The problem is the media got over excited as per usual. Henderson Sterling Young Alli all poor. Alli has been poor all season despite his stats. And sterling 2 goals in 40+ internationals! Henderson can only pass sideways....over hits forward passes.Young is just average. There was no real width. Wingers need to be pacey and skillful. We didn't have one. Sterling is just pacey. Why we didn't take sessegnon with us is a mystery. At least try him in a friendly ffs. Yes they got further than expected but performance was not above expectations
Regardless to whatever spin you put on it we did exceed expectations, as i said prior to the WC when the squad was announced this is a squad being prepared for the Next tournament, which was clear to see with the level of inexperience something never before seen by an England team at a major championship. So to get to the Semi finals was a very good achievement and deserve credit especially when you consider the inexperience also possibly 90% of the team playing in a top tournament for the first time, so regardless of the earlier "easier" opposition if there i such a thing at this level, it was an achievement above expectations getting into the Semi's mainly due to determination and a fine team spirit.
Surely you expected the media to go over the top as it brings publicity which in turn raises jo publics excitment, its all part of the circus. But i feel you are being overly critical of the team, we know there are areas of weakness as i pointed out, and there were players where it all "caught up" as in the case of our one match winner Harry Kane, if he had kept firing it would have been a different story. Yes there were players that lack quality at this level and that was shown up when we played the quality of Belgium yesterday, but there is a good base to work from and if we can find a Glenn Hoddle type midfielder, then we will see a big difference.
Talk of Sessegnon and Foden are very premature, we need to see them perform in the premiership first and develop before being promoted, the pity was the demise of Wilshire and Barkley as they were the successors to step up. But i have high hopes of seeing a good young England team taking shape which has not happened for a very long time, that is not to suggest we can win the next big tournament but getting into the final would be good.
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  #294  
Old 15-07-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Celestial Empire View Post
If future WC's have similarly unbalanced draws, it might make for entertainment as some good teams crash out, but the shrewd coaches will start gaming the system (as Southgate did, deliberately or by accident). I am surprised that the "victims" of this haven't kicked up with FIFA.

I see Jose Mourinho has become (the surprising) 'boy in the crowd' pointing out that Sterling has no clothes. So far, no comment from Guardiola.

Southgate's decision to keep playing a totally ineffective Vardy (with a minimum workrate), is inexplicable given Southgate's age fetish - has anyone got an explanation ?

Have the young, half-baked players really benefitted from this "tournament exposure" ? Pickford and Trippier have shown well, and Maguire/Stones have shown some potential, but the rest (including Kane), have mostly shown inadequacies, doubtful "tournament temperament" and declining confidence.
Not convinced that filling the team with this years' "flavour of the month" young players is any more than a gimmick. Very few Palace fans would have picked Ruben for the squad, because he is simply not ready yet.
Of course, for Southgate, they are much easier to handle.
It still pains me - and I'm not one of those who is overly fussed about the national team - that Wilf wasn't there with England. We were crying out for some genuine pace and flair, and he would have frightened the bejesus out of some of those defences, even from the bench. Twice the player that RLC is, more effective than the current incarnations of Vardy and Wellbeck, and on this tournament's showing, better than Sterling. What an opportunity missed.
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  #295  
Old 15-07-2018, 02:56 PM
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Regardless to whatever spin you put on it we did exceed expectations, as i said prior to the WC when the squad was announced this is a squad being prepared for the Next tournament, which was clear to see with the level of inexperience something never before seen by an England team at a major championship. So to get to the Semi finals was a very good achievement and deserve credit especially when you consider the inexperience also possibly 90% of the team playing in a top tournament for the first time, so regardless of the earlier "easier" opposition if there i such a thing at this level, it was an achievement above expectations getting into the Semi's mainly due to determination and a fine team spirit.
Surely you expected the media to go over the top as it brings publicity which in turn raises jo publics excitment, its all part of the circus. But i feel you are being overly critical of the team, we know there are areas of weakness as i pointed out, and there were players where it all "caught up" as in the case of our one match winner Harry Kane, if he had kept firing it would have been a different story. Yes there were players that lack quality at this level and that was shown up when we played the quality of Belgium yesterday, but there is a good base to work from and if we can find a Glenn Hoddle type midfielder, then we will see a big difference.
Talk of Sessegnon and Foden are very premature, we need to see them perform in the premiership first and develop before being promoted, the pity was the demise of Wilshire and Barkley as they were the successors to step up. But i have high hopes of seeing a good young England team taking shape which has not happened for a very long time, that is not to suggest we can win the next big tournament but getting into the final would be good.
But if you've watched football for a good few years you can see a player,I know it's not a science,I personally think Kane is overrated,lingered Ali,and sterling are a average
When McGuire is running past our midfield you got to think it's poor
Pickford,trippier and McGuire,the rest might aswell not bothered
That's 8 players need to be found
If England were playing France today mbape would go past young like he wasn't there
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  #296  
Old 15-07-2018, 02:59 PM
sideburns7 sideburns7 is offline
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Harsh our back 3weren't bad but you can blame them for the goals
I hope France win today as they have the best team with a fuc@in awful league
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  #297  
Old 15-07-2018, 03:56 PM
UncleAlbert UncleAlbert is offline
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Originally Posted by sideburns7 View Post
But if you've watched football for a good few years you can see a player,I know it's not a science,I personally think Kane is overrated,lingered Ali,and sterling are a average
When McGuire is running past our midfield you got to think it's poor
Pickford,trippier and McGuire,the rest might aswell not bothered
That's 8 players need to be found
If England were playing France today mbape would go past young like he wasn't there
Top scoring striker in europe overrated??? ok mate.
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  #298  
Old 15-07-2018, 05:39 PM
sideburns7 sideburns7 is offline
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What did he actually do in our last two games nothing,it's a game of opinions and I personally think he is at one time Glenn Murray was the second highest goal scorer in world football
And he wasn't bad
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  #299  
Old 15-07-2018, 06:12 PM
Wycombe Eagle#2 Wycombe Eagle#2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair View Post
Expectations were low because we have been poor. Because we lost to Iceland in Euros. The inexperienced team tag helped to lower expectations. A good performance and a late winner ve Tunisia gave us a lift. The crazy antics of Panama if looking to play the man rather than the ball made us feel good as we qualified for next round. We lose to Belgium but get an easier draw. Hope rises. We play Columbia who again like Panama are more interested in the man than the ball. They then wake up and we scrape through on penalties. Bliss. We've won a WC shoot out. We beat Sweden who realistically we're unlucky as Pickford made excellent save. But in the Tunisia Colunbia and Sweden games we faded in the second half. The same happened v Croatia. Southgate did not know how to address this issue. When turning to his subs he brought on the same old same old. The limitations we're exposed both in the players and the manager. We got excited because of the results but the performances were not high standard or convincing. The problem is the media got over excited as per usual. Henderson Sterling Young Alli all poor. Alli has been poor all season despite his stats. And sterling 2 goals in 40+ internationals! Henderson can only pass sideways....over hits forward passes.Young is just average. There was no real width. Wingers need to be pacey and skillful. We didn't have one. Sterling is just pacey. Why we didn't take sessegnon with us is a mystery. At least try him in a friendly ffs. Yes they got further than expected but performance was not above expectations
Totally agree. I will say regarding Henderson that I can't stand him as a player, but thought he came out with credit. Unless we have a sense of perspective we won't go on to achieve anything. We did NOT over acheive and cringe hearing or seeing comments that we did. We hit par given the opponents we faced. Nothing more, nothing less.

Best team won the world cup. But again a sense of perspective. This French side is younger than ours. Also just look at the stars that didn't even get into their squad. We are still someway behind.
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