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  #181  
Old 04-09-2016, 07:23 PM
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And the first link?
In the first place they are put forward by the country, the sovereign country, approved by the elected government. None of these projects - and I do mean NONE - exist unless the country concerned want them to exist and want them to be supported by funding that is approved by the Commission. If you want to blame anyone for this, though I wonder why you'd want to given the waste of UK taxpayers' money that has nothing to do with one single EU rule, then look to the capitals. The same with the often quoted figures on so-called fraud of EU funding. All down to weak national systems. Every single .

But the big question is: why are you pushing this? We are leaving the EU, according to our Government, and this thread is about the divorce process under Article 50. Stop replaying the referendum debate: it's pointless.
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  #182  
Old 04-09-2016, 08:03 PM
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We are leaving the EU, according to our Government, and this thread is about the divorce process under Article 50. Stop replaying the referendum debate: it's pointless.
Yep #Brexit is #Brexit
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  #183  
Old 05-09-2016, 02:00 AM
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But the big question is: why are you pushing this? We are leaving the EU, according to our Government, and this thread is about the divorce process under Article 50. Stop replaying the referendum debate: it's pointless.
I was responding to se25 exile comment on my original post, you responding perfectly where he or she made comments about NHS blah blah....taking it of track.

Then you have maz with his snide little digs etc...
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  #184  
Old 05-09-2016, 02:02 AM
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But the big question is: why are you pushing this? We are leaving the EU, according to our Government, and this thread is about the divorce process under Article 50. Stop replaying the referendum debate: it's pointless.
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  #185  
Old 05-09-2016, 10:15 AM
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The exact way in which Article 50 is enacted may well come down to a decision in the Supreme Court and/or ECJ as to the proper interpretation of the Article.
This begs the rather technical question over what is the official language used for Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty? If the ECJ is called on to clarify such a weakly defined article that could be significant due to nuances in the meaning of words such as "intent".
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  #186  
Old 05-09-2016, 11:11 AM
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This begs the rather technical question over what is the official language used for Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty? If the ECJ is called on to clarify such a weakly defined article that could be significant due to nuances in the meaning of words such as "intent".
There was an FT interview with the British official who originally drafted Article 50 and the general thrust was that since the only historical example was Greenland (which wasn't really about leaving the EU but rather leaving Denmark), and since the Lisbon Treaty is intended to be it for some time, with future withdrawals being an unknown quantity (at time drafting), then it was drafted very broadly so as to be adaptable.
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  #187  
Old 05-09-2016, 07:50 PM
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And so the funding should stop, why take on meaningless funding of projects that the EU decides? We should be able to decide what's best for the UK and not be dictated by the EU.

350 million to be spent on UK projects that benefit the UK! For me its a win win. Either way you look at it we would be saving the UK more than we get back from the EU.

Mind you how the government spend it maybe an issue. I'm just glad we have the Tories in at present and not labour as they couldn't even organise a piss up in the brewery at present. Interesting times a head and one I personally think we will prosper in.

To understand the EUs meaningless funding it helps a little bit to put in some historic context. Lets be clear, all governments, like all large long standing organisations, waste money. You are going to be able to pull up plenty of examples of public sector waste, and some private ones, but that doesnt lead on to the conclusion that all a public sector body does is waste money (although some on the right do believe this). I wouldnt hold up the EU as the most efficient spender of public money but it isnt anywhere near the worst and in some areas quite efficient. It has a relatively low budget compared with GDP and relatively low number of areas it can spend money in which makes it quite focussed. Anyway, historic context may help.

The CAP was until recently the biggest budget line and is the longest standing funding area. The idea of the CAP came about in the late 50s and it came into being in 1962. It was implemented in an era when most people would have remembered the second world war and the food shortages that followed. At the time polices to encourage food security, tariffs, subsidies, quotas already existed at the national level. The CAP didnt invent them. They were there because people realised in times of total war, as had happened twice in the past fifth years, to not have these policies would lead to defeat. So to merge the food security policies of the member states was a real statement of intent not to war with each other again. But of course the Cold War meant there was still a threat of total war. We may not face that threat today but even after leaving the EU Britain will need to retain some sort of agricultural policy that resembles CAP to provide food security and to support the rural economy. It probably wont look that different.

The other large part of the budget is the Structural Funds and Cohesion Fund. If I remember correctly this sort of funding rapidly expanded as a condition by Britain during its membership negotiations in 1973. The UK realised it would be a net loser on agriculture to France so wanted the EU budget expanded to include far more regional spending to compensate. Britain was poorer at the time so did relatively well out of this but once inside the EU Britain grew quicker than many other member states. What really tipped the balance though was the accession of the former Eastern Block members who were far poorer than existing members and started to take up most of the funds. However at the time it was viewed as politically expedient to accept this would happen. It would turn former enemies into allies and also develop markets within the Common market that the existing members could benefit from.

Im pointing this out not because I dont think the EU budget needs reform but because with any government programme you need to look at the history to understand why it is what it is (if you built the NHS from scratch today it wouldnt look like it does). I do believe that the money the EU spent in eastern Europe has been money well spent. Integrating our former enemies into allies may look like it was easy in 2016 but it didnt feel that way when I was a kid growing up in the shadow of the bomb.
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  #188  
Old 09-09-2016, 12:13 PM
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A short and easy to read guide on Brexit issues arising for commercial contracts:

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  #189  
Old 13-09-2016, 03:42 PM
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It's been widely reported that the House of Lords Constitution Committee published a report today on Article 50. It states that it would be a dangerous precedent for Government to invoke A50 without consulting Parliament. It also believes that given the uncertainty over whether A50 can be revoked, once invoked, then Government should act on the assumption that it cannot.

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  #190  
Old 13-09-2016, 03:45 PM
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It's been widely reported that the House of Lords Constitution Committee published a report today on Article 50. It states that it would be a dangerous precedent for Government to invoke A50 without consulting Parliament. It also believes that given the uncertainty over whether A50 can be revoked, once invoked, then Government should act on the assumption that it cannot.

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Bearing in mind Parliament will not be given oversight of BREXIT negotiations, I guess this dog won't hunt either!
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  #191  
Old 13-09-2016, 04:32 PM
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Bearing in mind Parliament will not be given oversight of BREXIT negotiations, I guess this dog won't hunt either!
I don't see how Parliament can not be given oversight. While A50 negotiations are not strictly the same, the Government is statutorily obliged to clear with Parliament any decisions it takes in Council and indeed to report on Council meetings. If the Council carries out the A50 negotiations, as A50 leaves it open for the Council so to do, then it seems to me that the Government will be on thin ice. It probably is already as Royal Prerogative does not apply when Parliamentary decisions on legislation may be countered and as there is an Act on our Membership then clearly this will arise. But also, if you look at the list at the start then there are key areas where Parliament is involved e.g. repatriating legislation and deciding on regulatory functions on which much of the law relies.
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  #192  
Old 13-09-2016, 04:35 PM
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The record of the joint Parliamentary committee hearings with experts on trade. I include the link here because it seems that to an extent a future trade deal can be covered under A50, which I didn't think was possible. Further sessions on Thursday.

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  #193  
Old 15-09-2016, 09:26 AM
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In the Parliamentary committee hearing on scrutiny, Lord Kerr gave evidence. He wrote Article 50 and covered the wording about the withdrawal agreement taking into account the framework for future relations. He and others said this would mean that there should be at least a political agreement on the principles of how the UK would cooperate with the EU. This would need to be agreed - "on the table" - before the withdrawal agreement was agreed. This explains some experts' view that there is an overlap with any trade deal in that an FTA usually starts with guidelines and objectives for the negotiators. The German version of A50 is, as ever, more wordy and exact, so makes this clearer: 'the structure of future relations will already be in place at the point that the withdrawal takes place'.
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  #194  
Old 29-09-2016, 09:12 AM
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  #195  
Old 30-09-2016, 02:11 PM
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Article 50 [not just another Brexit thread]

Well, the Government 'is bringing a knife to a gunfight'.....'

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I referenced the chap Pannick a few times in the aftermath of the referendum. I'm pleased he's on the right side.

It's almost as if the government wants to lose the legal argument. Interesting....
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  #196  
Old 30-09-2016, 02:15 PM
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Brexit may well not mean Brexit.
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  #197  
Old 30-09-2016, 02:39 PM
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The Unleaveables - Scene 56

Remoane: You said you wanted to get Article 50 voted on by an act of Parliament. Do you really wanna get this? You see what I’m saying is, what are you prepared to do?

UndoBrexit Mess: Anything and everything in my Article 50 power.

Remoane: And then what are you prepared to do? If you open the can on these Brexit worms you must be prepared to go all the way because they’re not gonna give up the referendum result until we have left the EU.

UndoBrexit Mess: How do you do it then?

Remoane: You wanna know how you do it? Here’s how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That’s the Lord Chief Justice way, and that’s how you get Article 50 voted on in our Sovereign Parliament! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?

UndoBrexit Mess: I have sworn to take Article 50 out of the hands of those dumbos and will use all legal powers at my disposal. And I will do so.

Remoane: Well, the Lord hates a Brexiter. Do you know what a blood oath is, Mr. UndoBrexit Mess?

UndoBrexit Mess: Yes.

Remaone: Good, ’cause you just took one.
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  #198  
Old 30-09-2016, 03:27 PM
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The Government's defence against a Parliamentary Act on invoking Article 50 is in safe hands leavers....

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For all these reasons, I have concluded that, on balance, the right decision is to remain in the EU which, by the way, we should continue to work to reform. Others will come to different conclusions but the great thing about this referendum, which has been so long in coming, is that everybody’s vote counts the same – this is not a decision just for politicians, but for all of us.
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  #199  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:13 PM
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Mat may need a good lawyer. Looks like he might have to take to the streets.
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Old 30-09-2016, 04:27 PM
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The record of the joint Parliamentary committee hearings with experts on trade. I include the link here because it seems that to an extent a future trade deal can be covered under A50, which I didn't think was possible. Further sessions on Thursday.

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Correct me if I am wrong Mik, but haven't you spent literally months railing against the likes of Biggin and Mat as being ignorant and naive when they suggested trade could be sorted..... I must have missed the apology....
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