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  #341  
Old 03-10-2016, 02:29 PM
Skintagain Skintagain is offline
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Indeed. May's ministerial performance was dreadful, somehow resulting in promotion to PM. If only we had a credible opposition.
What twaddle, like it or not May has been one of the most successful Home Sec ever. Few have lasted longer and none in recent times.
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  #342  
Old 03-10-2016, 02:40 PM
Skintagain Skintagain is offline
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And which bit exactly do you disagree with?
TBH I only read the messages at the end.
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  #343  
Old 03-10-2016, 03:10 PM
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TBH I only read the messages at the end.
Then I suggest you read the article which if anything hints at making a case against Remainers. On the issues of law and sovereignty the issues it raises are based on a factual reading of how statute works in the UK.
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  #344  
Old 03-10-2016, 03:49 PM
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Then I suggest you read the article which if anything hints at making a case against Remainers. On the issues of law and sovereignty the issues it raises are based on a factual reading of how statute works in the UK.
I've read it now. Interesting enough but nothing I can possibly have a worthwhile opinion on. If everything goes back to parliament as one part of it suggests we'll never get anywhere so some action has to be taken by the executive. I can see that the final agreement would have to go to parliament but even then if parliament doesn't agree the EU aren't obliged to comprise.
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Old 03-10-2016, 04:04 PM
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The UK prime minister announces she will trigger an exit from the EU before getting any guarantees

Theresa May has one great advantage as a politician. She looks serious and responsible. But appearances can be deceptive. If you examine how the UK prime minister is handling Brexit, a different sort of politician emerges.

By announcing that she will start the formal negotiations for Britain to leave the EU by March 2017, the prime minister has walked into a trap. She has given away what little leverage Britain has in the negotiations — without receiving any of the assurances that she needs to achieve a successful outcome.


Once Mrs May triggers Article 50, she has precisely two years to negotiate a new deal with the EU. Senior civil servants have told the prime minister that it is highly unlikely that the UK will be able to negotiate both the terms of its divorce and a new trade deal with the EU within the two-year deadline. As a result, they warned the prime minister that she must have assurances on what an interim trade agreement with the EU would look like in the long period between the UK leaving the bloc and a definitive new deal being put into place.

Mrs May has chosen to ignore this advice. In doing so, she has knowingly placed Britain at a massive disadvantage in the forthcoming negotiations.
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  #346  
Old 03-10-2016, 04:14 PM
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Once Mrs May triggers Article 50, she has precisely two years to negotiate a new deal with the EU. Senior civil servants have told the prime minister that it is highly unlikely that the UK will be able to negotiate both the terms of its divorce and a new trade deal with the EU within the two-year deadline. As a result, they warned the prime minister that she must have assurances on what an interim trade agreement with the EU would look like in the long period between the UK leaving the bloc and a definitive new deal being put into place.

Mrs May has chosen to ignore this advice. In doing so, she has knowingly placed Britain at a massive disadvantage in the forthcoming negotiations.
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  #347  
Old 03-10-2016, 04:30 PM
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I've read it now. Interesting enough but nothing I can possibly have a worthwhile opinion on. If everything goes back to parliament as one part of it suggests we'll never get anywhere so some action has to be taken by the executive. I can see that the final agreement would have to go to parliament but even then if parliament doesn't agree the EU aren't obliged to comprise.
True but Parliament could debate (at least in committee) the A50 objectives and the Government should assure Parliament it has done all it can to achieve those. Also, my understanding is that while the withdrawal agreement is voted on by Council and the EP, the framework for our future relationship is 'taken account of' so is not subject to rejection, therefore that part should also be agreed by our Parliament.

However, the key bit of this is post-Brexit. We give "our" sovereignty (in England at least) to our elected representatives. The government have some scope to decide under prerogative but deciding legislation by themselves without recourse to parliament also effectively takes sovereignty away from us.
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  #348  
Old 03-10-2016, 04:32 PM
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Perhaps the powers that be are of the opinion that the EU will be offering negotiations that are not something the Government of the United Kingdom will be able to get much out of anyway.

If the relationship is going to be (as it should be), reset entirely, then we are not going to be needing to play trading cards close to our chest.
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  #349  
Old 03-10-2016, 05:19 PM
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Why should our relationship with the EU be reset entirely?
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  #350  
Old 03-10-2016, 05:24 PM
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What twaddle, like it or not May has been one of the most successful Home Sec ever. Few have lasted longer and none in recent times.

That would be the same home office after all the years May was there was as incapable of telling how many peope had entered and left the country each year from when she joined to when she left.
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  #351  
Old 03-10-2016, 05:48 PM
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Why should our relationship with the EU be reset entirely?
It will be far easier to have a clean break.

Otherwise, the impossible conundrum of Free Movement will just be a running sore. And surely, nobody could seriously think any sort of half arsed Brexit lite/EU associate membership fudge would be a feasible option?
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  #352  
Old 03-10-2016, 06:44 PM
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True but Parliament could debate (at least in committee) the A50 objectives and the Government should assure Parliament it has done all it can to achieve those. Also, my understanding is that while the withdrawal agreement is voted on by Council and the EP, the framework for our future relationship is 'taken account of' so is not subject to rejection, therefore that part should also be agreed by our Parliament.

However, the key bit of this is post-Brexit. We give "our" sovereignty (in England at least) to our elected representatives. The government have some scope to decide under prerogative but deciding legislation by themselves without recourse to parliament also effectively takes sovereignty away from us.
You need to take a step back for a moment. You have, admirably, sustained at least two ongoing threads on Brexit, so no doubt you've had a hurricane's worth of thoughts going on in your head. Now I recommend clean your mental blackboard and breathe normally again.

It really is very simple:

1. All our EU Membership arrangements stem from, flow from, originate in and are ratified by Treaties, the names of which have passed into the Hall of EU Infamy (Maastricht being perhaps the most infamous of all). It is the Treaty of Lisbon which gives force to Article 50 provisions, such as they are. So, to achieve Brexit we follow A.50 to the point when we are no longer a "Member" of the EU, on our own terms as allowed for in A50, and at that point neither Lisbon nor any other of the Treaties we have signed apply to us any longer. It is the Minister(s) of the Crown who sign a Treaty on behalf of the UK. Parliament does not need to authorise either the signing of a Treaty or the withdrawal. That is a matter we have agreed to by international law known as the Vienna Convention.

2. The domestic UK law which ratified our original membership, a requirement which I conclude we placed uypon ourselves, was the European Communities Act 1972 (ECA). Obviously if its provisions - membership of the EU - no longer apply, then it ought to be repealed. That job is done in Parliament and that will require the usual parliamentary procedure. There may very well be a lot of Remainiac caterwauling during the Repeal process especially in the Lords, but the government has at its disposal the Parliament Act to knock out the Lords ultimately.

3. What body of rules and regulations wich we have signed into UK Law having received the 'words' from Brussels, and what body of rules and regulations which we have been obliged to obey and which we wish to continue to employ but which have remained Brussels-based legally i.e. no such corresponding, adopive UK Law has been enacted, we can keep or ditch as we wish. The combination of all of them into one big bundle of law makes sense. Then Parliament can go through each one as and when the need might arise and ditch it, amend it or keep it. Think of it as going to the luandry - put all your dirty washing (EU rules, red tape, bureacracy, corruption, etc) into a strong bag, and put in barrel of washing machine with liberal quantities of strong cleaning agents, stain remover, conditioner and so froth, and place on extra-long, ultra-high temperature cycle. Remove from machine, put out to dry, after vigourous shaking, and then iron the lot. Job done. UK is now back to full sovereignty.
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  #353  
Old 03-10-2016, 07:19 PM
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It will be far easier to have a clean break.

Otherwise, the impossible conundrum of Free Movement will just be a running sore. And surely, nobody could seriously think any sort of half arsed Brexit lite/EU associate membership fudge would be a feasible option?
Remoaners could.
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  #354  
Old 03-10-2016, 07:39 PM
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Just get out and let them haggle with us which they will. We sound like a country that is trying to do a deal but yet want to pull out so just exit and let them come to us
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  #355  
Old 03-10-2016, 08:05 PM
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Just get out and let them haggle with us which they will. We sound like a country that is trying to do a deal but yet want to pull out so just exit and let them come to us
Let them beg.
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  #356  
Old 03-10-2016, 08:15 PM
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You need to take a step back for a moment. You have, admirably, sustained at least two ongoing threads on Brexit, so no doubt you've had a hurricane's worth of thoughts going on in your head. Now I recommend clean your mental blackboard and breathe normally again.

It really is very simple:

1. All our EU Membership arrangements stem from, flow from, originate in and are ratified by Treaties, the names of which have passed into the Hall of EU Infamy (Maastricht being perhaps the most infamous of all). It is the Treaty of Lisbon which gives force to Article 50 provisions, such as they are. So, to achieve Brexit we follow A.50 to the point when we are no longer a "Member" of the EU, on our own terms as allowed for in A50, and at that point neither Lisbon nor any other of the Treaties we have signed apply to us any longer. It is the Minister(s) of the Crown who sign a Treaty on behalf of the UK. Parliament does not need to authorise either the signing of a Treaty or the withdrawal. That is a matter we have agreed to by international law known as the Vienna Convention.

2. The domestic UK law which ratified our original membership, a requirement which I conclude we placed uypon ourselves, was the European Communities Act 1972 (ECA). Obviously if its provisions - membership of the EU - no longer apply, then it ought to be repealed. That job is done in Parliament and that will require the usual parliamentary procedure. There may very well be a lot of Remainiac caterwauling during the Repeal process especially in the Lords, but the government has at its disposal the Parliament Act to knock out the Lords ultimately.

3. What body of rules and regulations wich we have signed into UK Law having received the 'words' from Brussels, and what body of rules and regulations which we have been obliged to obey and which we wish to continue to employ but which have remained Brussels-based legally i.e. no such corresponding, adopive UK Law has been enacted, we can keep or ditch as we wish. The combination of all of them into one big bundle of law makes sense. Then Parliament can go through each one as and when the need might arise and ditch it, amend it or keep it. Think of it as going to the luandry - put all your dirty washing (EU rules, red tape, bureacracy, corruption, etc) into a strong bag, and put in barrel of washing machine with liberal quantities of strong cleaning agents, stain remover, conditioner and so froth, and place on extra-long, ultra-high temperature cycle. Remove from machine, put out to dry, after vigourous shaking, and then iron the lot. Job done. UK is now back to full sovereignty.
1. Under the Constitutional Reform & Governance Act Parliament does ratify Treaties. The Vienna Convention is different: in this context it basically prevents the Crown using any other exit than Article 50.

2. Yes of course Parliament will repeal the ECA that is a given but May has explicitly spoken against Parliament being too involved in the EU withdrawal agreement (under Article 50) and even implied that the Government won't discuss the future relationship part that must be politically agreed at the same time.

3. The current burning issue over the "great repeal act" is how the Government (mostly a future one) will review and repeal or replace the laws that are now EU derived once they become UK law on our exit. My point is that if Ministers use executive powers, as implied by statements at the Tory conference, then there will be little Parliamentary scrutiny and the people will have no representation in the legislative decisions taken.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:21 PM
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:23 PM
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Remoaners could.
They do tend to have more intelligence and imagination.
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  #359  
Old 03-10-2016, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by willcpfc View Post
Perhaps the powers that be are of the opinion that the EU will be offering negotiations that are not something the Government of the United Kingdom will be able to get much out of anyway.

If the relationship is going to be (as it should be), reset entirely, then we are not going to be needing to play trading cards close to our chest.
This is nutty, even for you.
Would it be impertinent to ask if you have ever negotiated anything in the name of other people than yourself? It's quite a challenging responsibility.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:35 PM
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This is nutty, even for you.
Would it be impertinent to ask if you have ever negotiated anything in the name of other people than yourself? It's quite a challenging responsibility.
LOL I am not in Government.

So, its quite clear the EU has the red line of Free Movement, and it is equally clear that we are not going to accept that any more. Or do you seriously think a compromise can be reached?

I don't see any such compromise. So, that rather scuppers any notion that a "soft Brexit" is realistic. So a parting of the ways must happen - as soon as possible. Then we can negotiate with the EU like any other nation who is not a member state like.....


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