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  #1841  
Old 22-07-2016, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
I think that we all have to admit that the remain case wasn't made anywhere near as effectively as it should have been. Specific examples of positive EU impact on the UK were never really highlighted.
Now, maybe it was on a local level, and Brexit voters just chose to ignore it, but at a national level the positives were poorly represented.
The case to Leave was made badly, as well.
It was a pretty disappointing referendum, all round, debate wise.
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  #1842  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
The case to Leave was made badly, as well.
It was a pretty disappointing referendum, all round, debate wise.
Agree. However, the case to remain had to be stronger than the case to leave. Those arguing to remain did so half-heartedly and were also horribly complacent.
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  #1843  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:04 PM
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Isn't it time to stop the posturing and for people to look at the facts rather than labelling each set of facts as propaganda for one viewpoint or the other. It would be nice to hear different interpretations articulated or conflicting explanations of the data but the trends of name calling and pooh poohing any negative data on the basis that it is a smear or a negative viewpoint is reminiscent of the infant classroom.

Politicians/we don't have to agree but FFS what happened to intelligent differences of opinion. Not aimed at anyone specific - the world in general as it seems to have lost it on a global basis.
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  #1844  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
Sorry, you're right. I voted leave as I wanted it to stay the same. Wipe your tears mate, we're leaving.
You were conned and backed a victory for small minded bigotry and lies. I'm pleased for you that you're proud of it.
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  #1845  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Maz View Post
It astonishes me still how little brexiters understand what they voted for.
Remainers voted for a known outcome. Brexiters voted for anything other than a known outcome.

Given the the outcome is unknown, everyone could end up pissed off!

Yay. Genius
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  #1846  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SA Eagle View Post
You were conned and backed a victory for small minded bigotry and lies. I'm pleased for you that you're proud of it.
I'll only be conned if we never leave. I was asked 1 question - leave or stay. All the promises were just politician talk. You know, like the emergency budget and immediate tax rises we've just had? Oh.

Both sides lied. Both sides badly. I wasn't happy with how things were and wasn't provided with a good enough argument to stay that would satisfy my concerns.

It's a bit like voting Labour because you hate the Tories. You don't have to like or believe labour's mandate but you're just happy it not the Tory one.
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  #1847  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stellavista View Post
I think that we all have to admit that the remain case wasn't made anywhere near as effectively as it should have been. Specific examples of positive EU impact on the UK were never really highlighted.
Now, maybe it was on a local level, and Brexit voters just chose to ignore it, but at a national level the positives were poorly represented.
The bit in bold is key. The other point was that the actual negative consequences of Brexit were hard to pin down in specifics. Probably businesses were reluctant to be seen to take sides by saying they would delay investment. The concerns of the high wage earners in the City and estate agents selling high end houses in London did not cut through to pensioners angry that their grand children were lucky to have jobs with Sports Direct.
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  #1848  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
I'll only be conned if we never leave. I was asked 1 question - leave or stay. All the promises were just politician talk. You know, like the emergency budget and immediate tax rises we've just had? Oh.

Both sides lied. Both sides badly. I wasn't happy with how things were and wasn't provided with a good enough argument to stay that would satisfy my concerns.

It's a bit like voting Labour because you hate the Tories. You don't have to like or believe labour's mandate but you're just happy it not the Tory one.
Out of interest, what were your concerns?
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  #1849  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
It's a bit like voting Labour because you hate the Tories. You don't have to like or believe labour's mandate but you're just happy it not the Tory one.
No wonder the country is so ****ed if this is how people use their vote
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  #1850  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:45 PM
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Freedom of movement was the main one and easiest to explain. I don't agree with it at all. Communities are being lost here to EU immigrants the same way as southern Spain is to Brits. I don't agree with either. I like foreigners (it helps being one) but I want the way of life and culture in each country to be that. Otherwise everywhere becomes a bit grey. Immigration needs to be controlled and counted for as well. How the hell can you budget and plan when you don't know the numbers?

I know this is where you tell me we won't get a deal without FoM but I live in hope that we do get something better than now. Only time will tell.
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  #1851  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Hpalace View Post
No wonder the country is so ****ed if this is how people use their vote
Quite
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  #1852  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:47 PM
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No wonder the country is so ****ed if this is how people use their vote
I reckon there's loads out there that do this. There's no way people actually genuinely think Corbyn and a Labour government is the way forward surely?
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  #1853  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:48 PM
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For the record, I don't vote like that.
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  #1854  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
The case to Leave was made badly, as well.
.
I disagree with that. They knew exactly what buttons to push.

They were the Jonnie Cochran in the OJ trial - no case whatsoever, but won.
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  #1855  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
I wasn't happy with how things were and wasn't provided with a good enough argument to stay that would satisfy my concerns.

It's a bit like voting Labour because you hate the Tories. You don't have to like or believe labour's mandate but you're just happy it not the Tory one.
Can't disagree with this. Disagree with the result but not with this argument for the result we now have to manage.
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  #1856  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Shamone View Post
I reckon there's loads out there that do this. There's no way people actually genuinely think Corbyn and a Labour government is the way forward surely?
I am sure there are millions and hence the crappy politics we get as a result. A vote should be given to the local candidate that best represents your concerns and aspirations and will sit in the House of Commons and represent you in the way you would wish them too.

Its simply how our representative democracy is intended to work.

Why on earth would you vote for a party who's manifesto you did not agree with just to stop another party you also do not agree with? The result of doing this is exactly what we have - two really shit parties running the country who's main aim is not to do what is best for the country (like putting up taxes and stuff) and to appease their core voter.
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  #1857  
Old 22-07-2016, 03:55 PM
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For the record, I don't vote like that.
Posted after i finished typing my semi rant
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  #1858  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
The bit in bold is key. The other point was that the actual negative consequences of Brexit were hard to pin down in specifics. Probably businesses were reluctant to be seen to take sides by saying they would delay investment. The concerns of the high wage earners in the City and estate agents selling high end houses in London did not cut through to pensioners angry that their grand children were lucky to have jobs with Sports Direct.
It's also true that the negative consequences were hard to pin down because Brexit was very hard to define.
We still don't really know what it means and whatever it ends up being, there will be millions pissed off because it doesn't correspond to their idea of what they were voting for. Not to mention all the people who voted to Remain.
Basically whatever happens, about 70% of the population is going to be furious.
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  #1859  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:05 PM
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I fully agree with your semi rant but not sure we'll ever get back to that stage unfortunately. All I can see is cycles of switching between the 2 main parties every 4/8 years with people hoping a switch will suit them better. Providing Labour sort themselves out that is which is not a given!
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  #1860  
Old 22-07-2016, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
It's also true that the negative consequences were hard to pin down because Brexit was very hard to define.
We still don't really know what it means and whatever it ends up being, there will be millions pissed off because it doesn't correspond to their idea of what they were voting for. Not to mention all the people who voted to Remain.
Basically whatever happens, about 70% of the population is going to be furious.
I think it'll be more than 70% to be honest. But how many before the vote were pissed off with the EU? I know several people who voted remain as they didn't like the uncertainty of leaving but still hated the EU as it is.
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