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  #10041  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TopKnot View Post
Is it ok to try and ruin people's holidays for non safety related reasons like with Eurostar? Latvian Eagle ignored me when I asked him that.
As far as I know they are striking because of their work / life balance. As I said to a Southeastern chap yesterday, they knew what they were getting when they signed up, so what exactly are they wanting.

It is tough on shifts... Really hard at times, but it is something I accept. Plus I like driving trains.
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  #10042  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jimos_uk View Post
To the majority of those working in this country, that right to withdraw labour is essentially 'resign'.

I'm so bloody grateful that I don't have to commute any longer. Working from home daily is a privilege. A privilege that I left my previous job for, agreed to go contract, lose a 3 month notice period in favour of a two week one. You know, like the majority of people do, when they find their working conditions onerous or unpleasant.

I'm not affected by any of this, but if I was, I would find Latvian's posts beyond the pale. Screaming 'I'm alright Jack', whilst advocating 'I'm alright Jack', is beyond the ridiculous. And comments like 'massive fire on a 12 car train' - I'm sure your one guard would completely manage a scenario like that, if he was in that precise location at that precise time. Fragile customer sympathy gets eroded if comments like that are made.

Crying 'selfish' is an accusation that can be made on both sides - it is without doubt that the TOCs are generally bastards, but there's a world of employment out there, opportunities abound. Of course, if you can catch a train to get to an interview on time.
But you don't know about railway rules. Guards with their safety critical role can do a lot more than sell / check tickets.

Take that away and an on board supervisor is basically pointless.
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  #10043  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
I don't get the argument that if someone else has it bad, then others should also.
My stance is, I want everyone to have good working conditions, and if they get shat on.. I hope they are in a position to fight it.
That isn't my argument. Majority of people think the conditions you describe as bad as acceptable because on balance the system is beneficial. Democracy has decided this regardless of my opinion.

It's the means of fighting the cause I disagree with. Most people can't strike to fight their cause as they would simply lose their jobs. If you want something you could use the same means available to everyone.

If you want good conditions for everyone use our democractic sytems and make it happen.
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  #10044  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Latvian Eagle View Post
As far as I know they are striking because of their work / life balance. As I said to a Southeastern chap yesterday, they knew what they were getting when they signed up, so what exactly are they wanting.

It is tough on shifts... Really hard at times, but it is something I accept. Plus I like driving trains.
Thanks, that's an honest answer, and it's interesting to hear that the concept of striking is not regarded as black and white as implied (framed as the staff fighting for justice against the corporate evils of management).
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  #10045  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
Can you expand?
Why do you think they haven't a legitimate complaint? I think they have a very good argument.
I have in earlier posts. The issue seems to be over drivers instead of conductors being required to open train doors instead. This happens on 40% of UK trains now, including those running on Thameslink. This is reasonable, they may not like it, it may change their working practices and bring into question future job security. But the industry does not exist for their total benefit. It should be run efficiently and cost effectively.
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  #10046  
Old 12-08-2016, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TonysSpy View Post
That isn't my argument. Majority of people think the conditions you describe as bad as acceptable because on balance the system is beneficial. Democracy has decided this regardless of my opinion.

It's the means of fighting the cause I disagree with. Most people can't strike to fight their cause as they would simply lose their jobs. If you want something you could use the same means available to everyone.

If you want good conditions for everyone use our democractic sytems and make it happen.
There is nothing to stop people unionising and striving not to be exploited and to try to get better pay and conditions for themselves and their colleagues. The original unions came about at a time when you could be sacked for no reason and be blacklisted yet the unions came into existence.
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  #10047  
Old 12-08-2016, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
I don't get the argument that if someone else has it bad, then others should also.
My stance is, I want everyone to have good working conditions, and if they get shat on.. I hope they are in a position to fight it.
But this isn't the argument.

Most people don't work in industries that are vital for the infastructure of London and the UK. So with the help of strong trade unions they can't cause a meltdown of the whole thing by striking or calling in sick for weeks on end to force through their demands or object to any change in their jobs. Most working people have to accept that our employers can change our jobs to some degree and that we can't expect total job security. It's a balance, we all have rights but not total control. That is not 'having it bad' it's just the way life is for most people. There is a balance between the employer, the employee and the consumer. This is not how you see it, as far as you are concerned the railways exist to provide well paid jobs for life for its workers on terms which are skewed in your favour. The traveller is an afterthought, a person who should get up earlier and not complain if the trains aren't running whilst paying through the nose for the privilege.
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  #10048  
Old 12-08-2016, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by evvo111 View Post
There is nothing to stop people unionising and striving not to be exploited and to try to get better pay and conditions for themselves and their colleagues. The original unions came about at a time when you could be sacked for no reason and be blacklisted yet the unions came into existence.
These people aren't being exploited though.

In fact they are exploiting a situation.
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  #10049  
Old 13-08-2016, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by New LP View Post
These people aren't being exploited though.



In fact they are exploiting a situation.

For what?
Safety??
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  #10050  
Old 13-08-2016, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by New LP View Post
But this isn't the argument.



Most people don't work in industries that are vital for the infastructure of London and the UK. So with the help of strong trade unions they can't cause a meltdown of the whole thing by striking or calling in sick for weeks on end to force through their demands or object to any change in their jobs. Most working people have to accept that our employers can change our jobs to some degree and that we can't expect total job security. It's a balance, we all have rights but not total control. That is not 'having it bad' it's just the way life is for most people. There is a balance between the employer, the employee and the consumer. This is not how you see it, as far as you are concerned the railways exist to provide well paid jobs for life for its workers on terms which are skewed in your favour. The traveller is an afterthought, a person who should get up earlier and not complain if the trains aren't running whilst paying through the nose for the privilege.

Utter bullshine

Don't tell me what I think. 2 years and I hope to be out of this industry. The guards are striking for safety, they're giving up £££'s for nothing other than trying to provide a safe railway.

A couple of months back (I posted this on this very thread at the time) a 19yr old tried to kill himself in front of my train, as I tried to desperately get hold of the signaller he tried to jump in front of a train coming the other way, my guard managed to grab him. That guard saved that lads life, he also stopped a driver of going through a terrible experience (there's a driver who posts on here who had a suicide, he can tell you how traumatic it is to be the sole witness to a persons last seconds on earth)
I've also had guards find people that haven't taken their insulin, and slipped in to comatose state.
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  #10051  
Old 13-08-2016, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by New LP View Post
I have in earlier posts. The issue seems to be over drivers instead of conductors being required to open train doors instead. This happens on 40% of UK trains now, including those running on Thameslink. This is reasonable, they may not like it, it may change their working practices and bring into question future job security. But the industry does not exist for their total benefit. It should be run efficiently and cost effectively.

You don't even know why they're striking.
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  #10052  
Old 13-08-2016, 12:28 AM
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Southern will find themselves with far fewer qualified drivers come the end of the dispute, the staff turnover is greater than ever.

Yes, people can take their labour elsewhere. I have considered other TOCs and even a huge paycut to return to civil service because coming to work is sheer hell at the moment.

Not sure if anyone had mentioned this but it is a safety dispute. I would forgo any payrise for a decade if I could have a guard on each of my trains. There will be a disaster if we keep cutting staff levels.
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  #10053  
Old 13-08-2016, 01:00 AM
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I don't see why the RMT should be in the business of assessing safety. Are they experts in rail safety? It's not like rail is completely unregulated - the Rail Safety Standards Board sets the standards and has pronounced DOO trains safe.

If RMT really feel it is unsafe they should commission scientific reports that back up their case, protest to the board and raise awareness - not strike against a company that complies with the standards. If the strike is about jobs, just come out and say it.
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  #10054  
Old 13-08-2016, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Latvian Eagle View Post
Funny the same people who are saying tough luck basically to the staff are the same people who are unwilling to get up early to make sure they get into work on time.
It's nothing to do with people not wanting to get up early; it's about wanting to get up at a time to be able to take a train at a time as advertised, rather than hope for the best that one may or may not turn up to take them to work.
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  #10055  
Old 13-08-2016, 06:43 AM
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It's nothing to do with people not wanting to get up early; it's about wanting to get up at a time to be able to take a train at a time as advertised, rather than hope for the best that one may or may not turn up to take them to work.
Whilst I agree, they also know the service is not up to scratch. They know this yet rsther than find a sokution they continue about their daysgetting to work late and beibg moaned at by their bosses losing their jobs.

Again when I worked in the City, I started doing what one of my bosses said he did. Seems slightly loony but he said if he started at say 8:30 he would rather aim to be in at 8, give himself time to get in, get himself ready snd chill rather than jump straight in to work. I actually agree with that. Sometimes you have to compromise. It's bs that trains don't run, but it's not suddenly going to get better unfortunately.
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  #10056  
Old 13-08-2016, 07:51 AM
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Whilst I agree, they also know the service is not up to scratch. They know this yet rsther than find a sokution they continue about their daysgetting to work late and beibg moaned at by their bosses losing their jobs.

Again when I worked in the City, I started doing what one of my bosses said he did. Seems slightly loony but he said if he started at say 8:30 he would rather aim to be in at 8, give himself time to get in, get himself ready snd chill rather than jump straight in to work. I actually agree with that. Sometimes you have to compromise. It's bs that trains don't run, but it's not suddenly going to get better unfortunately.
Getting home is worst then getting to work IMHO, I do get to work early but there is nothing I can do about it taking ages to get home. Can't just start leave an hour early.

Besides, leave earlier is a pretty poor response when people are paying thousands for this service.

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Old 13-08-2016, 08:14 AM
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I have in earlier posts. The issue seems to be over drivers instead of conductors being required to open train doors instead. This happens on 40% of UK trains now, including those running on Thameslink. This is reasonable, they may not like it, it may change their working practices and bring into question future job security. But the industry does not exist for their total benefit. It should be run efficiently and cost effectively.
Cost effectively or so private companies can make greater profits ?

Govia are French owned. They run many rail services in France WITH guards on board. Why aren't they getting rid of the guards role there ?? Because the French Government won't let them.

Do you actually know what the "safety critical" role of a guard is? The answer is NO.

The guard on the train has 36 different safety compentencies on which he is fully trained in and has a 4/5 hour exam every 2 years and assessment rides in between to ensure that he and the passengers aboard his train are SAFE.

In the event of an accident or fire etc who do you think is responsible for the safety of passengers ? And no it's not the driver. IT'S THE GUARD.

I suggest you do a little research rather than looking at the headlines from The Daily Mail and forming a quite frankly ignorant opinion.
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Old 13-08-2016, 08:14 AM
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Beside, leave earlier is a pretty poor response when people are paying thousands for this service.
But these people don't really matter or exist in his mind. The railway exists for the benefit of the staff in his mind. The public who pay high fares are just an irritating after thought worthy of indifference and contempt. It doesn't matter if the railways grind to a halt or at best provide a shoddy service, as long as staff get generous salaries, on terms they get to decide.
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Old 13-08-2016, 08:20 AM
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Cost effectively or so private companies can make greater profits ?

Govia are French owned. They run many rail services in France WITH guards on board. Why aren't they getting rid of the guards role there ?? Because the French Government won't let them.

Do you actually know what the "safety critical" role of a guard is? The answer is NO.

The guard on the train has 36 different safety compentencies on which he is fully trained in and has a 4/5 hour exam every 2 years and assessment rides in between to ensure that he and the passengers aboard his train are SAFE.

In the event of an accident or fire etc who do you think is responsible for the safety of passengers ? And no it's not the driver. IT'S THE GUARD.

I suggest you do a little research rather than looking at the headlines from The Daily Mail and forming a quite frankly ignorant opinion.
Daily Mail? Read the broadsheets, both The Telegraph and Guardian from last week (so that's both sides of the political spectrum covered)

Both stated that 40% of UK trains run without guards closing doors. Govia run Thameslink which runs without guards. This issue is not about safety, the reason the unions have called the strike is not about safety. I may not agree with him and may have slated him a little, but at least Latvian has the honesty to admit why striking is taking place.
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Old 13-08-2016, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by New LP View Post
Daily Mail? Read the broadsheets, both The Telegraph and Guardian from last week (so that's both sides of the political spectrum covered)

Both stated that 40% of UK trains run without guards closing doors. Govia run Thameslink which runs without guards. This issue is not about safety, the reason the unions have called the strike is not about safety. I may not agree with him and may have slated him a little, but at least Latvian has the honesty to admit why striking is taking place.
It's not just about the doors.

The role of a safety critical guard is being eroded.

If it was about money why are they still striking when they have been promised the same pay ?
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