Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS » Crystal Palace Football Club » General Palace Discussion

Notices

General Palace Discussion General Palace talk - please keep transfer talk in the transfer forum.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #581  
Old 12-01-2017, 09:40 AM
MikeyBaby MikeyBaby is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,800
Rep Power: 17352282
MikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietMikeyBaby came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyStreet View Post
I won't go into detail on that one as it will be even more tedious to folk than the above.
We'll be the judge of that.


;-)
Reply With Quote
  #582  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:15 AM
Owngoal's Avatar
Owngoal Owngoal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Bromley
Posts: 15,925
Rep Power: 21474851
Owngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is hereOwngoal Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by philsick View Post
England jobs are the career graveyard for people nearing the end.
Poor old Gareth and our new keeper coach just announced
__________________
At least I score.............
Just because you are not paranoid does not mean they are not out to get you.........
Reply With Quote
  #583  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:47 AM
sydnsteve sydnsteve is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: sydenham
Posts: 15,444
Rep Power: 9015083
sydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietsydnsteve came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Lee has always come across as a bit of a dick. Hope he isn't.
Reply With Quote
  #584  
Old 12-01-2017, 11:15 AM
Kirby's Avatar
Kirby Kirby is offline
Very young thick c vnt
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Godalming, Surrey
Age: 33
Posts: 22,019
Rep Power: 21474853
Kirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is hereKirby Sam the man is here
Welcome Sammy.

I liked his attitude in his interview on the official website. "I like to bring the best out of players, as I know they'll be getting the best from me."
Reply With Quote
  #585  
Old 12-01-2017, 11:24 AM
firesign's Avatar
firesign firesign is offline
People are People
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Worcestershire
Age: 51
Posts: 11,779
Rep Power: 16147927
firesign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietfiresign came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
We now have a managerial and coaching set-up that last summer was considered good enough for England. SO, it should be good enough for Palace.
Reply With Quote
  #586  
Old 12-01-2017, 11:36 AM
richdeniro's Avatar
richdeniro richdeniro is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London
Posts: 8,208
Rep Power: 13901967
richdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietrichdeniro came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Have we appointed a new fitness coach by any chance?
Reply With Quote
  #587  
Old 12-01-2017, 12:18 PM
red&blue_moomin's Avatar
red&blue_moomin red&blue_moomin is offline
This was a triumph.....
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Back in the Cronx
Age: 41
Posts: 5,062
Rep Power: 8872832
red&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietred&blue_moomin came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by richdeniro View Post
Have we appointed a new fitness coach by any chance?
No but we have appointed a new physio funnily enough the ex liverpool one who would have woorked with our Dr.
__________________
I Like the away kit!!!
Wayne Andrews = Hero: Boss Boss I can run boss.......
Cake....................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #588  
Old 12-01-2017, 03:24 PM
Big Al's Avatar
Big Al Big Al is offline
Banned by Moderators
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Norbury
Age: 55
Posts: 431
Rep Power: 6076174
Big Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietBig Al came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by firesign View Post
We now have a managerial and coaching set-up that last summer was considered good enough for England. SO, it should be good enough for Palace.
Yup. What could possibly go wrong?
Reply With Quote
  #589  
Old 12-01-2017, 06:23 PM
A Wooden Fish On Wheels's Avatar
A Wooden Fish On Wheels A Wooden Fish On Wheels is offline
Fishy McFishface
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: See are too
Posts: 37,166
Rep Power: 21474854
A Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by firesign View Post
We now have a managerial and coaching set-up that last summer was considered good enough for England. SO, it should be good enough for Palace.
If it's good enough for England and the FA then... oh hang on... he was sacked after one game
Reply With Quote
  #590  
Old 12-01-2017, 08:36 PM
Stella Drinker Stella Drinker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 134
Rep Power: 1055408
Stella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mineStella Drinker : if all you've got to do today is find peace of mind, come round, you can take a piece of mine
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Wooden Fish On Wheels View Post
If it's good enough for England and the FA then... oh hang on... he was sacked after one game
Give him a chance. Every time I read a post from you lately it's being negative about the new set up. It's getting very boring.
Reply With Quote
  #591  
Old 12-01-2017, 10:27 PM
A Wooden Fish On Wheels's Avatar
A Wooden Fish On Wheels A Wooden Fish On Wheels is offline
Fishy McFishface
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: See are too
Posts: 37,166
Rep Power: 21474854
A Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is hereA Wooden Fish On Wheels Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella Drinker View Post
Give him a chance. Every time I read a post from you lately it's being negative about the new set up. It's getting very boring.
It's a fair cop. I will try to keep my trap shut.
Reply With Quote
  #592  
Old 12-01-2017, 11:23 PM
Grey Eagle's Avatar
Grey Eagle Grey Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: South Croydon
Age: 53
Posts: 487
Rep Power: 5522317
Grey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietGrey Eagle came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Wooden Fish On Wheels View Post
It's a fair cop. I will try to keep my trap shut.
Bet you don't
Reply With Quote
  #593  
Old 16-01-2017, 10:17 PM
eagle-leg's Avatar
eagle-leg eagle-leg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Croydon
Posts: 2,537
Rep Power: 13698448
eagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dieteagle-leg came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Interesting to seethat James McArthur has said that training has improved since Sammy Lee joined us.

Give it time.
Reply With Quote
  #594  
Old 16-01-2017, 10:56 PM
gilesy14's Avatar
gilesy14 gilesy14 is online now
Woah Woah Woah
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Brixton
Age: 31
Posts: 8,827
Rep Power: 21474844
gilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is heregilesy14 Sam the man is here
Doesn't surprise me - he was one of a few who complained about Pardew's training.
__________________
CHRISTIAN BENTEKE APPRECIATION SOCIETY
Reply With Quote
  #595  
Old 16-01-2017, 11:25 PM
sw16girl's Avatar
sw16girl sw16girl is offline
A Fish without a Bike
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Effingham
Posts: 12,405
Rep Power: 21474849
sw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by eagle-leg View Post
Interesting to seethat James McArthur has said that training has improved since Sammy Lee joined us.

Give it time.
Shame he is injured now then. Hopefully nothing that is going to keep him out for anything more than the Bolton game.
__________________
Crystal Palace Supporters Trust
http://www.palacetrust.org.uk

A Trust is for life not just for Crisis
Reply With Quote
  #596  
Old 17-01-2017, 02:10 PM
sw16girl's Avatar
sw16girl sw16girl is offline
A Fish without a Bike
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Effingham
Posts: 12,405
Rep Power: 21474849
sw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is heresw16girl Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyStreet View Post
Go on then.

I would advise people to read Conn’s article first before reading the below. I would apologise for the length of this post, but the two judgments combined are over 80 pages.

1. As quick background, the case related to allegations that just before Gavin McCann signed for Bolton from Villa he was tapped up by a new agent (SEM/SEM's employees) and convinced to leave his old agent Tony McGill, thereby breaching McCann's oral agreement with McGill. SEM took the commission from Bolton for the transfer, rather than McGill, so McGill sued just about everyone available at both SEM and Bolton in civil proceedings using every possible line of argument under the sun.
2. Conn’s primary position in his article is that Lee had ‘knowingly given false evidence’ in civil proceedings in which he and Bolton were both defendants. Conn relies, in this regard, upon a passage from a costs judgment, which is not public. Conn also indicates towards the end of the article that McGill (the Claimant, and an adverse party to Lee) was a source contacted by Guardian in preparing the story, which may need to be borne in mind.
3. Admittedly, it is somewhat difficult to say without seeing the costs judgment what specific findings it states about Lee, but (i) that costs judgment wasn’t being appealed in the Court of Appeal anyway; and (ii) more importantly, it is not consistent with the characterisation of Lee throughout the substantive judgment that was actually appealed, which is linked at the bottom of this post and described further below.
4. The Judge at first instance, Waksman QC, said that he found Lee's evidence "not always convincing" and that he did not accept that Lee was right about (i) having been told about the availability of Gavin McCann by a specific individual at Bolton (McParland, the Club Secretary); and (ii) two specific meetings having taken place between Bolton and SEM insofar as they related to McCann.
5. These types of disputes as to facts arise in pretty much every single civil case. It does not follow that because a Judge did not like someone's evidence on a point he found they were not telling the truth and doing so knowingly (lying). For example, the Judge overall found McGill to be a reliable witness but found that he had exaggerated on certain points or been mistaken on others. This happens in most cases that reach judgment.
6. It is a whole different kettle of fish to describe someone’s evidence as 'not always convincing', as opposed to the judgment’s findings on McCann, who is characterised as knowingly untruthful and found to have fabricated a number of events, or to say that the evidence provided was unsatisfactory, as was the case for Anderson (an SEM defendant). Judges are quite nuanced in how they describe evidence, and there is nothing in any public judgment in this case to suggest that Waksman considered that Lee had knowingly misled the Court or lied (as opposed to being mistaken).
7. The facts alleged in this case arose in 2007. The trial occurred in 2014. It’s not uncommon for someone’s evidence to be found unconvincing by a Judge in any event, and becomes increasingly likely with the amount of time that elapsed between the the facts in this case and the trial.
8. More specifically, Conn portrays the meetings between Bolton and SEM as having been a complete work of fiction, and uses this in support of his criticisms of Lee. However, the High Court judgment states that, while any meetings between SEM and Bolton could not have related to McCann, there may have been meetings between those two parties at the relevant time, as they had been discussing other players, including Heidar Helguson and Danny Guthrie, at that point (para 92).
9. In fact, Waksman made it clear in his judgment on more than one occasion that the intention of Bolton and certain of the Bolton parties appears to have been to keep their powder dry, rather than to engage in any form of conspiracy with SEM, and to attempt (unsuccessfully, as it turns out) to avoid being drawn into a dispute involving the rival agents McGill and SEM.
10. So Waksman found that (i) Lee's intention was to avoid being caught in the middle of a dispute between two agents (para 72); (ii) Lee txted McGill around the time the dispute started asking him not use Lee as a ‘pawn’ (para 72); (iii) Lee's solicitors said in 2009 that he could not assist with the case brought against McCann by McGill, despite that not being the case (para 90); and (iv) some or all of the defendants did not want to rock the boat when a convenient deal had presented itself (para 161).
11. Conn also relies on the fact that during the course of the costs judgment Waksman made reference to the conduct of the various defendants, and reduced their costs awards on that basis. The inference Conn appears to want the reader to derive is that Lee knowingly lied and that, as a result of this, the costs award for the Bolton defendants was amended downwards. However, the material in the High Court judgment which is far more prejudicial in its findings on the Bolton defendants relates to the positions they took on the backdating of the agency agreement between Bolton and SEM and the changing of Bolton’s evidence (in particular by Phil Gartside) in relation to when that agreement was actually signed (para 121).
12. As background, the agreement entered into between SEM and Bolton relating to the transfer was actually signed on 8 June 2007, but was marked by the parties as having been entered into on 1 June 2007. This was required by SEM to show that they had not simply poached McCann at the last minute and that they had been acting for him throughout and therefore provided services to him, rather than simply relying on the work of McGill. There are two points that need to be considered in relation to this backdating.
13. First, Waksman stated that, while Bolton agreed to backdate the agreement, he did not think the purpose of the backdating would have been explained to the club and the Club secretary may well have assumed that the earlier date included was simply the date on which SEM had started acting for McCann (para 124). Even Gartside, who is subject to some criticism in the judgment, was not found to have agreed to backdate for the same reasons as SEM wanted the agreement backdated. SEM are criticised heavily in the judgment for the backdating and their intention at the time in requiring it. Bolton are criticised more for not coming clean immediately, and providing false accounts, on whether the backdating had occurred. It may well be for this reason, although you would need to read the costs judgment, that SEM's costs were capped at 30% whereas Bolton were able to recover 80% of their costs (para 13 of COA judgment).
14. Second, and more pertinently for the purposes of Conn’s article and this post, there is no suggestion in the High Court judgment whatsoever that Sammy Lee had any involvement at all with the backdated agreement (see paras 113-124). It was the Bolton club secretary that was involved with the paperwork and Lee’s name is not mentioned once in connection with that particular issue.
15. Conn also characterises the Court of Appeal as having 'upheld all of the findings of the High Court'. That isn't really how appeals work and it’s also a mischaracterisation of the appeal. The Court of Appeal isn't there to re-litigate a case or (in the vast majority of cases) to make new findings of fact. It's there to deal with the grounds of appeal raised by the applicant, usually on specific, narrow points of law. Applicants can attempt to appeal on the facts where there has been a clear error by the lower Court, but in the vast majority of instances the Court of Appeal will simply adopt the factual findings of the High Court.
16. The suggestion that the Court of Appeal rubber stamped all Waksman’s findings on Lee's evidence is therefore misleading when (i) the question of the reliability of Sammy Lee’s evidence in the lower court was not in issue in the appeal; (ii) the extent to which Lee's evidence was criticised is misrepresented by the Conn article; and (iii) the appeal by McGill actually succeeded on certain of its grounds (albeit that those grounds were, as is usual, legal rather than factual);
17. It is also clear through the High Court judgment, and indeed from the appeal, that the Court considered that SEM (the rival agents) and its employees were the primary wrongdoer in the case. In fact, Lee and the Bolton defendants weren’t even Respondents to the appeal, which related only to the dismissal of the claim against the SEM defendants. The suggestion that Bolton were somehow complicit in the inducement that SEM undertook, is therefore highly misleading. There is therefore absolutely no consequent suggestion whatsoever that Lee took any part in the inducement by SEM. This is borne out by the fact that McGill decided to go against only SEM in the appeal and it was SEM, rather than Bolton, whose costs were limited most severely by the High Court.
18. A thread that seems to run through the Conn article appears to be the desire to plant in the reader's mind that Lee committed perjury. Interestingly, McGill instigated a private prosecution against most of the defendants in this action, including Lee, alleging perjury. That private prosecution failed and all the defendants were acquitted.
19. The article also makes a great deal of the fact that the FA elected not to take action against any parties in relation to the transaction. However, for the FA to take action against you, you need to be in breach of one of its regulations. There is the possibility that the FA could, theoretically, have taken action against Bolton for (i) having dealt with Weston (of SEM) prior to there being a written agreement between the Club and agent; or (ii) if they knew that Sheron also of SEM, and who was actively involved) was not a licensed agent.
20. (i) above is a breach of the regulations but, as the High Court judgment says, it is common practice for agents to tie up all of the paperwork prior to completion of a transfer and the FA does not regard it as a breach of the regulations if work prior to that written contract is ultimately dealt with in a written agreement. As such, it is highly unlikely that the FA would take action against Bolton on this point.
21. In relation to knowledge that Sheron was unlicensed, there was no finding that Bolton either dealt primarily with him and the point of Bolton's knowledge wasn't put to anyone from the club by McGill during the trial (para 175).
22. Taking into account the above, I cannot see any basis for the FA to have taken disciplinary action against Bolton. There is even less possibility that they could have proceeded to take disciplinary action against Lee in relation to the facts of this case. I cannot even identify a regulation that would have applied to him, rather than the club, let alone been breached. An inducement to breach of contract, as was ultimately found to have been committed by SEM, is a civil matter and not a concern of the FA.
23. Ironically, because McGill undertook various activity on behalf of McCann under an oral agreement he was, himself, arguably in breach of the Regulations if Bolton were. It is therefore a bit rum of the article to suggest that Regulatory action should have been taken by the FA against Bolton when McGill was arguably in breach of the very same regulation (and never ultimately ended up entering into a written agreement with McCann so didn't remedy the situation as Bolton did).
24. So, in summary, Lee was found not to have been liable for any alleged claim in the High Court, was not even included as a party for the Court of Appeal, was acquitted in a private prosecution brought by the same claimant for perjury, was not subject to any regulation that could have brought any form of FA charge, and was not found in any of the factual findings of the High Court to have knowingly lied.
25. Finally, Conn misunderstands the basis of the appeal, which is on a technical legal point, but I won't go into detail on that one as it will be even more tedious to folk than the above.

Other than the above, the article is spot on.

High Court judgment: mannyroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/FinalJudgmentMcGill.doc
Court of Appeal judgment: To view the link you have to Register or Login
Just a few of points on this which Andy clearly feels extremely strongly about. Using the same numbered points:-

2. As Conn relies on a passage from a judgement that is not public and Andy has not read (one assumes unless he has an undeclared interest in the case and has access to it) a great deal of what Andy then says is entirely his own assumptions which is fair enough but that is all they are because he has not seen the evidence.

3. The fact the costs decision is not being appealed is irrelevant to David C's findings if it does say what he says it does - in fact if it is not being appealed it may suggest there are no grounds on which it could be appealed.

6. Judges are nuanced but only as far as they need be and not in order to allow others to draw additional evidence from the judgement - they will never go further in any judgement than they have to - this is to make the decision "appeal proof" as far as it can be. The less you put out the less that can be appealed - so to describe a witness as "not entirely credible" or "not entirely convincing" or lacking consistency" are all ways of saying it was unbelievable - whether because the judge thought the witness was lying (either deliberately or by way of self delusion) or was simply mistaken or muddled or misremembered. If it is unnecessary for this judgement to hold together to say that Lee lied the Judge will not say it. Therefore simply because this judgement did not say it, it does not means the judge considered that SL did not lie only that it was not needed to be said. In fact if the clip from the costs judgement in David C's article is correct and in context then the judge himself makes that point and clarifies what he meant.

7. I'm not sure about Andy's point here - of course evidence is found unconvincing by judges - it has to be generally for one side to be preferred over the other - as both sides have passed the same amount of time since the events under appeal it makes no difference as to whose will be found unconvincing. The only point with passage of time is that a judge may be more generous is assuming it was a mistake or misremembered rather than a deliberate lie for the side found against. The judge did not do that here in the costs judgement.

I'm not going to argue all the other points but it would be fair to say that if David C's article has an axe to grind (and other than his standard stance against the seamy side of football I cannot see that it does particularly) so does Andy's post although what that axe is I do not know and Andy may not be able to say. I am inclined to agree with him that it would be difficult for the FA to base any disciplinary proceedings on the judgement. The article and the reply put two different sides of the argument - however it is fair to say that no matter how you wrap it up SL does not come out smelling of roses.

As to whether the Judge considered that SL lied the most telling comment by him was in David C's article and has not been referred to by Andy. In the costs judgement the judge said

The events attested to by the Bolton witnesses concerning these meetings simply did not happen. True, I did not use the word ‘dishonesty’ [in his original judgment], but plainly if their evidence on the facts on this issue was false they must have known it to be so.”

So Andy was right SL was not found to have knowingly lied in the High Court judgement, he was only found to have knowingly lied in the costs judgement. Which is of course why SL has not taken any action against David C in respect of the article - because it is true.

Oh and as far as the private prosecution is concerned - that has to be proved beyond all reasonable doubt and private prosecutions rarely make that standard - in civil cases it only has to be proved on the balance of probabilities so

on the balance of probabilities he knowingly lied - not beyond all reasonable doubt.
__________________
Crystal Palace Supporters Trust
http://www.palacetrust.org.uk

A Trust is for life not just for Crisis

Last edited by sw16girl; 17-01-2017 at 03:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #597  
Old 17-01-2017, 02:36 PM
Palace Bear's Avatar
Palace Bear Palace Bear is offline
He's got flair and hair
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Berkhamsted
Age: 33
Posts: 2,492
Rep Power: 6201199
Palace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPalace Bear came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by sw16girl View Post
Just a few of points on this which Andy clearly feels extremely strongly about. Using the same numbered points:-

2. As Conn relies on a passage from a judgement that is not public and Andy has not read (one assumes unless he has an undeclared interest in the case and has access to it) a great deal of what Andy then says is entirely his own assumptions which is fair enough but that is all they are because he has not seen the evidence.

3. The fact the costs decision is not being appealed is irrelevant to David C's findings if it does say what he says it does - in fact if it is not being appealed it may suggest there are no grounds on which it could be appealed.

6. Judges are nuanced but only as far as they need be and not in order to allow others to draw additional evidence from the judgement - they will never go further in any judgement than they have to - this is to make the decision "appeal proof" as far as it can be. The less you put out the less that can be appealed - so to describe a witness as "not entirely credible" or "not entirely convincing" or lacking consistency" are all ways of saying it was unbelievable - whether because the judge thought the witness was lying (either deliberately or by way of self delusion) or was simply mistaken or muddled or misremembered. If it is unnecessary for this judgement to hold together to say that Lee lied the Judge will not say it. Therefore simply because this judgement did not say it, it does not means the judge considered that SL did not lie only that it was not needed to be said. In fact if the clip from the costs judgement in David C's article is correct and in context then the judge himself makes that point and clarifies what he meant.

7. I'm not sure about Andy's point here - of course evidence is found unconvincing by judges - it has to be generally for one side to be preferred over the other - as both sides have passed the same amount of time since the events under appeal it makes no difference as to whose will be found unconvincing. The only point with passage of time is that a judge may be more generous is assuming it was a mistake or misremembered rather than a deliberate lie for the side found against. The judge did not do that here in the costs judgement.

I'm not going to argue all the other points but it would be fair to say that if David C's article has an axe to grind (and other than his standard stance against the seamy side of football I cannot see that it does particularly) so does Andy's post although what that axe is I do not know and Andy may not be able to say. I am inclined to agree with him that it would be difficult for the FA to base any disciplinary proceedings on the judgement. The article and the reply put two different sides of the argument - however it is fair to say that no matter how you wrap it up SL does not come out smelling of roses.

As to whether the Judge considered that SL lied the most telling comment by him was in David C's article and has not been referred to by Andy. In the costs judgement the judge said

The events attested to by the Bolton witnesses concerning these meetings simply did not happen. True, I did not use the word ‘dishonesty’ [in his original judgment], but plainly if their evidence on the facts on this issue was false they must have known it to be so.”

So Andy was right SL was not found to have knowingly lied in the High Court judgement, he was only found to have knowingly lied in the costs judgement. Which is of course why SL has not taken any action against David C in respect of the article - because it is true.

Oh and as far as the private prosecution is concerned - that has to be proved beyond all reasonable doubt and private prosecutions rarely make that standard - in civil cases it only has to be proved on the balance of probabilities so

on the balance of probabilities he knowingly lied - not beyond all reasonable doubt.

"OBJECTION YOU HONOUR!!!!"

"On what grounds?"

"far too much to read your honour".
__________________
Bye Bye Brighton.... Bye Bye.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.