Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS » Off Topic » General Chit Chat

Notices

General Chit Chat Off topic conversations. Please do not post CPFC or sport related threads here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1521  
Old 19-10-2017, 01:14 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
I mean, I'm working on the principle that this can't turn out well for Catalunya or for the rest of Spain, unless some agreed way out can be reached - not secession and not intervention of the government.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1522  
Old 19-10-2017, 01:18 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Yes, but the offer of constitutional talks excludes independence.
See - this bit reminds me of when Podemos refused to negotiate with PSOE and Ciudadanos in 2015 / 16. They didn't agree with what was on the table.

So you put in your demands. Rajoy doesn't have it in his gift to grant independence, but he can put wheels in motion so the Catalan people can exercise a vote.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1523  
Old 19-10-2017, 01:49 PM
Elephant with mouse gyp's Avatar
Elephant with mouse gyp Elephant with mouse gyp is offline
Man and beast
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,061
Rep Power: 21474853
Elephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is here
Would you trust him to?
Reply With Quote
  #1524  
Old 19-10-2017, 02:04 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
I mean, I negotiate with people I don’t entirely trust every day. You make it so they can’t get out.
It’s politics, innit.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1525  
Old 19-10-2017, 02:31 PM
Elephant with mouse gyp's Avatar
Elephant with mouse gyp Elephant with mouse gyp is offline
Man and beast
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,061
Rep Power: 21474853
Elephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is here
I'll watch out for that! I was being lazy saying Rajoy, I mean would catalan nationalists trust the PP on a political level? Wouldn't Rajoy split the party if he agreed to an official referendum? Or risk Ciudadanos snatching the flag waving vote? I don't see the upside for the PP in ever agreeing to a referendum.
Reply With Quote
  #1526  
Old 19-10-2017, 03:09 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
He can't agree to a referendum - the sovereignty of Spain resides in the Spanish people. He can agree to reopening the constitution - in fact he already has, last week. And kindly let Pedro Sanchez (leader of PSOE) announce it.
I would have thought Puigdemont could get him to agree that a referendum on independence would go into the proposed new Constitution, agree a timescale, and that Catalan nationalists represent what, 15% of the board of "sabios" who draw up the new constitution. And then accept Rajoy's proposal of new elections if the Looney Tunes boat leaves Catalunya's shores with all the outside Guardias and Nationals on it. And on those conditions, withdraw the threat of secession. And he would have won, in that case, wouldn't he?

I can't see a way of granting a referendum without asking the Spanish people - which is why I expected a bribe, to be honest. It's the time-honoured way of solving these disputes. Opening up the constitution suggests a real way out, and a proper solution.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1527  
Old 19-10-2017, 03:13 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
You're right about Ciudadanos snatching the flag waving vote. But their power base is in Catalunya so there is, I suppose.... and although it hasn't been very apparent, lately.... a degree of restraint on it. And as mentioned, Inés Arrimadas is married to one of the PDeCAT MPs.

'Sgreat, Spain, you know. You couldn't make it up.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1528  
Old 19-10-2017, 03:17 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
Also, I go back to Iglesias refusing to negotiate with Sanchez and Rivera. If he had done, I suspect none of this would ever have happened.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1529  
Old 19-10-2017, 03:32 PM
Elephant with mouse gyp's Avatar
Elephant with mouse gyp Elephant with mouse gyp is offline
Man and beast
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,061
Rep Power: 21474853
Elephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is here
On the other hand, the PSOE's role as PP sidekick in this kind of proves him and the general Podemos line right. Iglesias is more or less proposing what you are - another reason why I can't see the PP going for it.
Reply With Quote
  #1530  
Old 19-10-2017, 03:51 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
So Puigdemont shouldn't have negotiated with Rajoy because Rajoy couldn't accept his conditions?
If this is a battle for foreign public opinion, where Rajoy conceded a hat-trick early on with the police thuggery, isn't it a bad idea to be the one holding the parcel when the actual battle starts?

Also, the PSOE is always going to have a hold over Spanish opinion because out of all these parties, they are the only one who ever actually managed to do something to improve the lot of the Spanish working class. If you want to effect change (and I'm not sure I even believe Iglesias does), you *have* to engage with them.
I was outraged the day they refused to negotiate. In fact, I expect I predicted all this, then.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1531  
Old 19-10-2017, 04:23 PM
Elephant with mouse gyp's Avatar
Elephant with mouse gyp Elephant with mouse gyp is offline
Man and beast
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,061
Rep Power: 21474853
Elephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is here
The PSOE didn't want to talk to Podemos for ages before that and has been for years a pro austerity, i.e. anti working class, party. Unless it changes, Podemos must attack it as enthusiastically as possible on all fronts.

I don't think international public opinion is the decider at all. It rarely is.

Keep meaning to ask, whatever happened to that scandal where a PP leader admitted to a conspiracy involving the PP, the spooks and the right wing media spying on political opponents, especially I think catalan ones?
Reply With Quote
  #1532  
Old 19-10-2017, 04:39 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
The PSOE didn't want to talk to Podemos for ages before that and has been for years a pro austerity, i.e. anti working class, party. Unless it changes, Podemos must attack it as enthusiastically as possible on all fronts.
Hang on - that's wrong. Citizens' groups representatives centred round Podemos are in power in Spain's three biggest cities with the support of PSOE. All those agreements were reached before the elections.
The people in Podemos who want to work with PSOE nationally - Errejón, Bescansa - are the ones who have a realistic chance of changing anything.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1533  
Old 19-10-2017, 05:01 PM
Elephant with mouse gyp's Avatar
Elephant with mouse gyp Elephant with mouse gyp is offline
Man and beast
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,061
Rep Power: 21474853
Elephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is hereElephant with mouse gyp Sam the man is here
Can't agree. Podemos's selling point is that they don't accept the current establishment set up, economically and constitutionally. They have to keep showing that or they just become an adjunct to the PSOE. More than happy for Podemos to ally with or melt into the PSOE when it stops backing austerity and police state measures, but I think that would only happen if Podemos overtook them.
Reply With Quote
  #1534  
Old 19-10-2017, 05:40 PM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
We’d be well screwed if the PSOE took that line - the mayors are the bright spot of Spanish politics. Remember the right will always unite to defeat you (something tells me you’ve probably had discussions on this theme before).
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1535  
Old 21-10-2017, 09:47 AM
Pat of the Palace's Avatar
Pat of the Palace Pat of the Palace is offline
Man of the weld
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Catalunya
Age: 47
Posts: 4,258
Rep Power: 14405996
Pat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Today Rajoy will explain how the 155 will be applied.
Probably replace the Catalan government and direct control of the Mossos and Catalan media.
Any declaration of independence will be treated as rebellion according to the fiscalia.

The king has piped up again. Helpful as ever. Maybe should stick to killing elephants like his daddy.
__________________
He loves you now 'cause you are thin, but you'll be spending your life sucking your stomach in.
Reply With Quote
  #1536  
Old 21-10-2017, 11:13 AM
Pat of the Palace's Avatar
Pat of the Palace Pat of the Palace is offline
Man of the weld
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Catalunya
Age: 47
Posts: 4,258
Rep Power: 14405996
Pat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietPat of the Palace came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
If they call elections some parties could be made illegal.
__________________
He loves you now 'cause you are thin, but you'll be spending your life sucking your stomach in.
Reply With Quote
  #1537  
Old 21-10-2017, 11:19 AM
El Aguila's Avatar
El Aguila El Aguila is offline
Middle class left.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: On Green Dolphin Street.
Age: 53
Posts: 41,658
Rep Power: 21474853
El Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is hereEl Aguila Sam the man is here
Crónica de una catástrofe anunciada.
Still time for Puigdemont to call elections. The two of them, Rajoy and Puigdemont, look like two men trapped in the cockpits of bulldozers rolling towards each other.
__________________
Salt Peanuts! Salt Peanuts!
Reply With Quote
  #1538  
Old 22-10-2017, 02:19 AM
Louis's Avatar
Louis Louis is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London SE4
Posts: 26,056
Rep Power: 9302623
Louis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietLouis came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Apparently the Spanish government are planning new elections in Catalonia. Perhaps a way forward would be for the Madrid and Catalan governments to agree on a framework for these, as a way out of the impasse?
Reply With Quote
  #1539  
Old 22-10-2017, 04:55 AM
PeterH's Avatar
PeterH PeterH is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Santiago. Chile
Age: 52
Posts: 45,287
Rep Power: 21474854
PeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is herePeterH Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
Remember the right will always unite to defeat you .
I like this.
__________________
"Be under no illusion that the reality of what I'm saying is the fact of the matter."
Reply With Quote
  #1540  
Old 22-10-2017, 07:01 AM
mik59's Avatar
mik59 mik59 is online now
Wagon Painter
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Another 'C' town
Age: 58
Posts: 31,081
Rep Power: 21474851
mik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is heremik59 Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Podemos's selling point is that they don't accept the current establishment set up,
Not sure that is true on the ground, everywhere in Spain, as Podemos tends to work as a collective, so in some towns/juntas, local Podemos does work alongside the "establishment". Although also, not sure what the "establishment" is in Spanish terms. Here, in Andalucia, the "establishment" can be anyone who works inside a junta building. If they effect some control over freedom to do what you want, when you want, then they are the "establishment".
__________________
Where am I goin'? I don't know. When will I be there? I ain't certain. What will I get? I ain't equipped to say.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.