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  #17181  
Old 21-03-2018, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
You are definitive proof that it's possibly to be highly educated, yet completley ignorant.
"completely" ignorant

Anyway, it's nice to know that Marxism 101 is on the curriculum at Spunkbridge Polytechnic this term.
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  #17182  
Old 21-03-2018, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Ex members I have no idea. Jack Straw used to be in the communist party.
As was Eric Pickles*.

*this isn't actually true, but he was a Communist sympathiser until Kow's chums mashed up Prague in the spring of 1968.
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  #17183  
Old 21-03-2018, 11:27 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Originally Posted by bomberdear View Post
I'm certainly very suspicious of government, often does more harm than good, but is a necessary evil. The less government we can get away with the better. The major benefit of Brexit is that we abolish a massive layer of government from our lives. As for private=good, if you mean a system which is a counterpart of democracy in giving everyone a say, yes it is good. Everyone who goes into a shop and chooses one article instead of another is casting a vote in the economic ballot box, influencing production and investment. In this continuous general election of the free economy market place, everyone is voting all the time. Under socialism there is no choice in the shops and the consumer is served up a particular product whether he or she wants it or not - the government decides not you - the government knows better.
This doesn't make sense as a view point. Government is people, big business is people, people either do well or don't the idea that goveenment is bad but large companies that only answerable to share holders is good is a nonsense.

You say that you want choice, but the very notion of capitalism reduces choice, because every company tries to copy what is popular, you only have to look at major business models to see how this works. It also puts profit above the societal value of what is being done.

This idea thats lot of choice automatically equals good, is also a total misonomer.
What about the quality of the choices, the saftey of the products etc

the government want to get elected so they listen to the people who vote for them in genuine deomcracy, not this vague "every purchae is democracy" nonsense because you have to able to afford to buy products, its not an equal democracy if the majority of the popuation are excluded from it due to factors beyond their control.

It just sounds like you have a problem with perceived authority and find the idea of government emasculating. Where as with corporate interests you have the illussion of choice, which makes you feel better about letting them decide what is better for you.
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  #17184  
Old 21-03-2018, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bomberdear View Post
I'm saying that state run activities lead to a lack of consumer choice. As Corbyn is promising the nationalisation of some industries, then yes I am implying that.
This is bollocks. What choice do you have now? I think Southern rail are ******* wank but its that or walk. What different would nationalisation be except profits put back into infastructure.
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  #17185  
Old 21-03-2018, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Cuba made it illegal to belong to an independent trade union FFS. Yet people in the "Labour" party make excuses for them.

It's scandalous.
They also banned "The Rolling Stones" for ideological deviation".
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  #17186  
Old 21-03-2018, 11:39 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Anyway ideological discussions out of the way.

Incremental Capitalist reforms have been seen as "commie revolution" but generations of Conservative and Labour government. regulation of the banks, increases in taxation, renationalisation of the rail way etc

The london stadium deal is a priiimmme example of privitisation gone wrong. It costs the tax payer £2.5 million more in taxes to put on the West Ham games than West Ham pay in rent.
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  #17187  
Old 21-03-2018, 11:40 PM
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Incremental Capitalist reforms have been seen as "commie revolution" but generations of Conservative and Labour government. regulation of the banks, increases in taxation, renationalisation of the rail way etc.
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  #17188  
Old 21-03-2018, 11:42 PM
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Milliband was regarded as "too far to the left" for running on a fairly centre right in some places campaign and Corbyn did much better on a manifesto that was to the left of that but still fairly moderate to centre left in the context of global politics but it's "stalinism" and "loony lefties"

Its utter bollocks
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  #17189  
Old 22-03-2018, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
This is bollocks. What choice do you have now? I think Southern rail are ******* wank but its that or walk. What different would nationalisation be except profits put back into infastructure.
If there are profits. Did national rail run at a profit?

Incidentally I'm not convinced a national rail structure needs to. A cheap and effective rail service might be a public good worth paying for. But the assumption nationalisation would definitely be an improvement and profitable is a bit of a biggie.
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  #17190  
Old 22-03-2018, 01:33 AM
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  #17191  
Old 22-03-2018, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
This is bollocks. What choice do you have now? I think Southern rail are ******* wank but its that or walk. What different would nationalisation be except profits put back into infastructure.
There are hardly any profits with state-run businesses, just poor service, lack of choice, over-manning, inefficiency and strikes.
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  #17192  
Old 22-03-2018, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by bomberdear View Post
There are hardly any profits with state-run businesses, just poor service, lack of choice, over-manning, inefficiency and strikes.
Going well with those hyper efficient private rail companies, innit?
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  #17193  
Old 22-03-2018, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by nickgusset View Post
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Communist tries to dilute communist atrocities shock horror.

The basic 'argument' of the silly Quora 'article' is that communism 'only' killed 60 million whereas capitalism starved 75 million to death! It is ludicrous to say capitalism starved people to death - also communist countries were of course conspicuous in their absence in the relief of famine areas - too busy manufacturing their home-grown famines I guess.
There is an answer posted on the Quora page that sums things up well:

"Capitalism. Capitalism is responsible for the unprecedented rise in food production, medical care, sanitation and hygiene, and access to adequate shelter and clothing that caused billions and billions more people to be born. Many of these billions have died, and thus capitalism is directly responsible for their deaths.

Communism, on the other hand, has merely led to famine, ecological disaster, war, concentration camps, and state-sponsored murder, which while highly efficient in murdering those already alive, has failed to provide the rise in living standards necessary for the rapid expansion of population that would really boost its kill totals. China came the closest, but even it had to borrow agricultural and management techniques from the capitalists; indeed, without capitalism, many of those communism has killed never would have lived, and so full credit for many of communismís kills has to be shared with capitalism."
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  #17194  
Old 22-03-2018, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bomberdear View Post
There are hardly any profits with state-run businesses, just poor service, lack of choice, over-manning, inefficiency and strikes.
In all seriousness, I think there is an issue with how we can get efficient public services & infrastructure without either handing them over to carpetbaggers or risking the lack of a profit motive leading to some of the issues you mention.

In a mixed economy you can have both - nationalisation of everything would be foolish as some of the benefits of customer choice and competition have been identified already.

So the two challenges are - which things would be better of in public hands? and how to best run a public service so that workers and Government don't end up in deadlock?

We might disagree about the first, and we could have a heated to and fro about the second, but if you are arguing private is always best then that is as silly as public is always best.
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  #17195  
Old 22-03-2018, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bomberdear View Post
Barcelona! Is that the best you can do?

Successful Capitalism? Practically everywhere - responsible for the highest living standards for ordinary people in the history of mankind.
We have a system where there is constant war, huge inequality, mass poverty, starvation, dictators. And you think thatís success?
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  #17196  
Old 22-03-2018, 08:00 AM
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In all seriousness, I think there is an issue with how we can get efficient public services & infrastructure without either handing them over to carpetbaggers or risking the lack of a profit motive leading to some of the issues you mention.

In a mixed economy you can have both - nationalisation of everything would be foolish as some of the benefits of customer choice and competition have been identified already.

So the two challenges are - which things would be better of in public hands? and how to best run a public service so that workers and Government don't end up in deadlock?

We might disagree about the first, and we could have a heated to and fro about the second, but if you are arguing private is always best then that is as silly as public is always best.
I broadly agree with what you have said here.
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Old 22-03-2018, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
We have a system where there is constant war, huge inequality, mass poverty, starvation, dictators. And you think thatís success?
Better than communism's record.
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Old 22-03-2018, 08:04 AM
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Better than communism's record.
Thereís never been communism, only Stalinism.

But that aside we now have a world where a large part of it is under capitalist dictatorships, where millions are killed in wars on a regular basis, where there is huge poverty. This to you is success?
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Old 22-03-2018, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Thereís never been communism, only Stalinism.

But that aside we now have a world where a large part of it is under capitalist dictatorships, where millions are killed in wars on a regular basis, where there is huge poverty. This to you is success?
Most successful capitalist countries are democracies. Of course there have been communist states: USSR, Peoples' Republic of China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Cuba, People's Republic of Albania, Eastern block puppet communist states like East Germany etc.

A characteristic of these states is machine-gun manned borders to stop the happy communist population from trying to escape to wicked capitalist countries to face 'huge poverty' and endless wars.
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Old 22-03-2018, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by west country boy View Post
"completely" ignorant

Anyway, it's nice to know that Marxism 101 is on the curriculum at Spunkbridge Polytechnic this term.
exactly, I reckon I'm only 40% ignorant
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