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  #9001  
Old 11-11-2016, 11:09 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
In my view the most important thing for the left to do is to win power, so it can actually do something about rights, racism, poverty and international conflicts.

But while those like yourself are happier being a protest party it's unlikely to happen.
But you never say how or what you think policies should be. The closest I can see to you saying anything is bankrupt third way bollocks. You're an empty vessel lashing out.
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  #9002  
Old 11-11-2016, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You're an empty vessel lashing out.
Yes, you've got me there. Again, I can only hope to attain your level of calm and restraint.
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  #9003  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Yes, you've got me there. Again, I can only hope to attain your level of calm and restraint.
Anything politically positive to offer?
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  #9004  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Anything politically positive to offer?
Sure, loads. I dare say lots of people on here already know my views. Your notion that I don't have any is as bizarre as your various other straw men you like to mix in with the endless streams of abuse.

If you want my view on something, you have only to ask.
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  #9005  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:40 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
Sure, loads. I dare say lots of people on here already know my views. Your notion that I don't have any is as bizarre as your various other straw men you like to mix in with the endless streams of abuse.

If you want my view on something, you have only to ask.
So no then. As said your views seem bankrupt third way bollox. But you barely ever say anything. #sneeringheb
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  #9006  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So no then. As said your views seem bankrupt third way bollox. But you barely ever say anything. #sneeringheb
I said yes, and invited you to ask. But I'm not surprised you ignored it. Like most ideologues you're only really interested in views that you think will confirm your own.
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  #9007  
Old 12-11-2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
I said yes, and invited you to ask. But I'm not surprised you ignored it. Like most ideologues you're only really interested in views that you think will confirm your own.
Rather than inviting me to ask (I mean do you know how pompous you sound?), go ahead then and give your alternative.
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  #9008  
Old 12-11-2016, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Rather than inviting me to ask (I mean do you know how pompous you sound?), go ahead then and give your alternative.
An alternative Labour party manifesto would be enlightening, from Heb. Just a few key points in a list would be fine for starters. He is good at lists.
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  #9009  
Old 12-11-2016, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Rather than inviting me to ask (I mean do you know how pompous you sound?), go ahead then and give your alternative.
To what? It's a ridiculously broad question. Fine, as I've said on here numerous times in the past, I'd like to see free childcare for all (Scandinavian style) introduced here as a priority. It's good for children's development (particularly those who would otherwise start school at the lower end of the EYFS), it'd create lots of jobs in early years, and it'd both help people who wanted to return to work and make it financially worthwhile (rather than your whole paycheck going on childcare).

I'd pair that with dramatically improved maternity and paternity rights, again both good for children's development and would cut down on discrimination against women in the workforce.
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  #9010  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
To what? It's a ridiculously broad question. Fine, as I've said on here numerous times in the past, I'd like to see free childcare for all (Scandinavian style) introduced here as a priority. It's good for children's development (particularly those who would otherwise start school at the lower end of the EYFS), it'd create lots of jobs in early years, and it'd both help people who wanted to return to work and make it financially worthwhile (rather than your whole paycheck going on childcare).

I'd pair that with dramatically improved maternity and paternity rights, again both good for children's development and would cut down on discrimination against women in the workforce.
All things I would support and worthy ones. But that's it? That's your political alternative?

In the face of growing right wing nationalism, and even fascism, on the back of failed third way politics. This is all you have?
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  #9011  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
All things I would support and worthy ones. But that's it? That's your political alternative?

In the face of growing right wing nationalism, and even fascism, on the back of failed third way politics. This is all you have?
I wasn't proposing listing every political belief I have. I was just pointing out yet another of your tedious strawman for what it is by restating a "positive political point" I've made before on here.

Now that we've established you were talking out of your arse, again, I'm happy to talk about individual areas of policy. Say your views of an area, I'll say if I agree and if not what I think.
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  #9012  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
To what? It's a ridiculously broad question. Fine, as I've said on here numerous times in the past, I'd like to see free childcare for all (Scandinavian style) introduced here as a priority. It's good for children's development (particularly those who would otherwise start school at the lower end of the EYFS), it'd create lots of jobs in early years, and it'd both help people who wanted to return to work and make it financially worthwhile (rather than your whole paycheck going on childcare).

I'd pair that with dramatically improved maternity and paternity rights, again both good for children's development and would cut down on discrimination against women in the workforce.
That's two, and good ones, but not yet quite one of your famed lists suitable for a manifesto, as an alternative to Jeremy Corbyn's ideas
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  #9013  
Old 12-11-2016, 11:24 AM
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That's two, and good ones, but not yet quite one of your famed lists suitable for a manifesto, as an alternative to Jeremy Corbyn's ideas
I never said I was giving a "manifesto"? I'm not running against Corbyn, and have no desire to be a politician.

I've yet to see any detailed policy from Corbyn though, who is supposed to be leader of the opposition. Just vague top level ideas.
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  #9014  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Only one seat contested by a Momentum member putting forward Corbyn's politics in a bold way, who massively increased their vote.
I would suggest that you look at the picture across the country in the last few months. If anyone can claim success then its the Lib Dems who have gained over 20 seats many from Labour. Labour has held in London and a few other areas and had success adding to the majorities they hold and even winning a few seats elsewhere but they are few and far between. However they have been smashed to bits in other areas I noticed that Heb used Poole. Hartlepool saw UKIP go for nothing to over 40% of the vote and in doing taking the seat from Labour. The Tories have mixed success but mid term its not looking that bad.
Fro Thursday the loss of a seat to the Tories was also matched by a Independent slashing the majority in Hitchin by some 17pc.
I said it on the Trump thread the disconnect of the left to the issues of the former Northern heartlands is similar to the loss of the Democrats of the rust belt to Trump.
No I have no doubt that Corbyn will point out the anti establishment, message is the same as Trumps, the failure of the current system, I see he is doing so in Ashford today. Its fine there is , where the difference lays is the solution Trump used the xenophobia and racist element. There is no such path for Corbyn. That will result in a split of the opposition to the current system to the left and right in the UK. With those like me centre left looking for a home. In frustration and anger at Corbyn I have said on here I would vote Tory. I would amend that if I thought we were going the Trump route. However a choice of two extremes is not what we have in the UK its currently one a far left solution, and why I still see no alternative to a mauling of Labour in the next election.
You have argued that the centrists politics is the cause of the far right rise across Europe and the states. Its a strong and valid point to make but the solution the far left are offering is not addressing the concerns of those that see immigration a major threat screaming racists is not the answer.
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  #9015  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Heb 7:4 View Post
I never said I was giving a "manifesto"? I'm not running against Corbyn, and have no desire to be a politician.

I've yet to see any detailed policy from Corbyn though, who is supposed to be leader of the opposition. Just vague top level ideas.
So you don't, as I suspect have any alternative. Just more sneering.
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  #9016  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
I would suggest that you look at the picture across the country in the last few months. If anyone can claim success then its the Lib Dems who have gained over 20 seats many from Labour. Labour has held in London and a few other areas and had success adding to the majorities they hold and even winning a few seats elsewhere but they are few and far between. However they have been smashed to bits in other areas I noticed that Heb used Poole. Hartlepool saw UKIP go for nothing to over 40% of the vote and in doing taking the seat from Labour. The Tories have mixed success but mid term its not looking that bad.
Fro Thursday the loss of a seat to the Tories was also matched by a Independent slashing the majority in Hitchin by some 17pc.
I said it on the Trump thread the disconnect of the left to the issues of the former Northern heartlands is similar to the loss of the Democrats of the rust belt to Trump.
No I have no doubt that Corbyn will point out the anti establishment, message is the same as Trumps, the failure of the current system, I see he is doing so in Ashford today. Its fine there is , where the difference lays is the solution Trump used the xenophobia and racist element. There is no such path for Corbyn. That will result in a split of the opposition to the current system to the left and right in the UK. With those like me centre left looking for a home. In frustration and anger at Corbyn I have said on here I would vote Tory. I would amend that if I thought we were going the Trump route. However a choice of two extremes is not what we have in the UK its currently one a far left solution, and why I still see no alternative to a mauling of Labour in the next election.
You have argued that the centrists politics is the cause of the far right rise across Europe and the states. Its a strong and valid point to make but the solution the far left are offering is not addressing the concerns of those that see immigration a major threat screaming racists is not the answer.
Labour isn't doing great, although 28% is far better than most (nearly all?), other social democratic parties across Europe who have clung to the centre ground. I think in the coming years there will be polarisation of left and right and I'm genuinely pleased you would go left in such a situation.

Countering xenophobia and racism, when it's been left to build for years, and encouraged by the establishment and much of the media, is going to be no easy task. Screaming racists isn't the answer. But I will continue to try and point out the very real benefits from immigration, and that austerity and growing inequality is the real cause of our wage cuts, welfare cuts and rising inequality and poverty. It will be a disaster if the left tries to take the racist ground. It's wrong and would just drive the right forward.

The disconnect you speak of is very real, and the unions and grass roots have to change that if we have any chance. Progress in my CLP is the slick, suited and booted, upper middle class professional types. I suspect the right of labour is like it across the country, who are deluded that we just need more of the same with centrist politics. Corbyn might not be the most charismatic in the world but at least what has got him there opens the opportunity for a real alternative.
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  #9017  
Old 12-11-2016, 12:52 PM
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So you don't, as I suspect have any alternative. Just more sneering.
So far I've offered two policies and you've offered none. Just strawmen and abuse.
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  #9018  
Old 12-11-2016, 01:32 PM
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So far I've offered two policies and you've offered none. Just strawmen and abuse.
Corbyn has put forward a whole raft of policies and a general vision of socialism.

But whatever you think of that, I asked you for an alternative. You offered two policies and went back to sneering. You're a total waste of space.
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  #9019  
Old 12-11-2016, 02:29 PM
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Corbyn has put forward a whole raft of policies and a general vision of socialism.

But whatever you think of that, I asked you for an alternative. You offered two policies and went back to sneering. You're a total waste of space.
That's your answer. A "general vision of socialism" and a blithe assertion that he has policies which you aren't able to name or articulate why you support? Fine, but don't bitch about my not talking policy. I offered to, and you've come up empty handed.

The problem with Corbyn of course isn't policy detail (though he's sorely lacking). It's him. Even with detailed policy he'd still be an awful candidate.

Like you he seems more interested in factionalism and cherry picking meaningless things to "celebrate" than he is in addressing his dismal performance or providing any real opposition.
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Old 12-11-2016, 02:47 PM
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I never said I was giving a "manifesto"? I'm not running against Corbyn, and have no desire to be a politician.

I've yet to see any detailed policy from Corbyn though, who is supposed to be leader of the opposition. Just vague top level ideas.
I know, but I was asking you to provide a raft of ideas that were an alternative to your hate figure Corbyn. I am only asking, not insisting.

We all know what Corbyn stood for during his two campaigns, that is why he got elected. Now I don't agree with every single idea of his, but most of them, and that is why I voted for him other than the rest. Corbyn's Labour has not yet completed a manifesto, we only have ideas at the mo, and that is all I am asking for. However, I respect a position where a poster may resent being pressured, even mildly, in this way.
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