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  #10021  
Old 14-02-2017, 12:54 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Skin Up View Post
Socialism has always been stronger on the continent than the UK, you can only speculate on the reasons (UK was never under fascist control, UK has generally benefited from free trade in it's history, never had a revolution or civil war in recent history, has a much larger population than many socialist countries, due to imperialism/religion ect just has more of a conservative culture) whatever the reasons it's like comparing apples to oranges. Also you have the danger that if these European countries that are not in great economic shape go hard left and the hard left ****s up (as history tells us they are prone to) then that leaves an open door for the nationalistic right.
I think the radical history of the U.K. is underplayed from Cromwell, to the Chartists, the general strike and the miners strike.

I agree there are some differences, but the uk will polarise with the rest of the world. It's centrism that will let in right wing nationalists and fascism as it always has done. Indeed centrists, in general, prefer it to socialism, and the conservative right certainly do.

Labour will not succeed as a divided party whoever is there. And members will not accept a Hilary Benn type.
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  #10022  
Old 14-02-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
whereas in the U.K. the mainstream social democratic parties who have moved to the left are getting hammered instead.

And that's with stickier voting in the U.K.

The "Corbyn's the worst performing Labour leader since Foot but anything else would be much worse" argument would be very very funny if the situation wasn't so important.
Exactly.. Far left in this country is as unelectable as far right .. Always will be . Continental party figures are as irrelevant as assads popularity in terms of political preferences in this country.
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  #10023  
Old 14-02-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
We needed huge reselections though to get rid of the careerist, upper middle class dross that took over nearly all the PLP
Middle class family? Privately educated? Grammar school educated? Never really had a real job outside of politics?
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  #10024  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
Middle class family? Privately educated? Grammar school educated? Never really had a real job outside of politics?
That's the rub though. I don't care what someone's background is, it's their politics. But by and large, with exceptions, upper middle class people tend to be self serving, careerist right wingers. The PLP is stuffed with them. Or Alan Johnson types who shit all over their past and cosy up to Tories on a sofa.
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  #10025  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:03 PM
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Good luck in convincing Labour Party members to pick Hilary Benn
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  #10026  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
25% is what centrist parties who are SD can only dream of at present. And that's with a civil war. Divided parties don't win. Labour so win needs mass reselections.

But as said whether people like it or not labour members won't accept someone like Hilary Benn.
civil war has little impact on polls. One pollster looked and reckoned 2% inpact. So Corbyn remains well below where Labour were in 2015.

Corbyn, and frankly any baggage laden lefty are the problem here. The UK is not Europe, we have an entirely different electoral system which creates way more stickiness in voting. It's virtually impossible for the two mainstream parties to poll lower than 30% on a consistent basis.

Labour members might not accept Benn and that's up to them, but voters are what matters. Voters won't accept baggage laden socialists, or idiots (or both) and frankly that's all Labour's left are offering at present. I accept that Labour's left doesn't have a great pool of MPs, but talent rises and frankly this might well be as good as it gets. Angela Rayner might well be the cream of the Labour Left, Angela Rayner....pauses to let that sink in.........Labour have two by-elections coming up. They are defending seats against a government who has imposed massively unpopular policies and has its own internal issues, and the other against some borderline racists. If they don't have crushing victories in both then they are totally incompetent. The concept of losing either is, or at least should be totally unquestionable. Now I suspect they'll hold on in Stoke but that the Tories stand a chance in Copeland is indicative of how appalling Corbyn's reign has been.

Pick an inspirational lefty without baggage and the Labour Party will follow, much like the Tory Party followed Cameron (who was very much. It from the right of that party). The country might too. Stick with a decent and principled fool and you're bang in trouble. Replace him with unprincipled fool (see McDonnell, John) and you're done.
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Last edited by Adlerhorst; 14-02-2017 at 01:13 PM.
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  #10027  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
That's the rub though. I don't care what someone's background is,:
And yet every other post you make you're ranting on about class
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  #10028  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:08 PM
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A bloke called Hillary?
Will that play well in the North?
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  #10029  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
And yet every other post you make you're ranting on about class
Or beards, he's not a fan of hipsters either
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  #10030  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Good luck in convincing Labour Party members to pick Hilary Benn
Party members represent about 6.5% of the people that voted Labour at the last election. You know, the one they lost.
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  #10031  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:12 PM
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A bloke called Hillary?
Will that play well in the North?
He's an MP for Leeds
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  #10032  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by smileysmith View Post
Keir Starmer seems to speak well ...
He's the one that reckons May has given up on hard Brexit!

On CR's divided party explanation, it only goes so far. Labour won elections in the 60s and 70s with divisions all over the shop. Labour is naturally more 'divided' or full of debate than the Tories as we represent a much broader constituency and they like the smack of a strong leader, they want someone to tell them what to think and do, all the better if it's a harsh mistress. New Labour control freakery is another Tory-lite aberration.
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  #10033  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:19 PM
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Starmer has a track record of management outside parliament. That is one thing in his favour. I can't yet work him out though. He sounds knowledgable but some people have the habit of seeming competent without actually saying anything. Let him run with Brexit and build up a track record as a shadow minister. Hillary Benn would make a good leader. In the meantime Labour needs to get behind Corbyn.
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  #10034  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
civil war has little impact on polls. One pollster looked and reckoned 2% inpact. So Corbyn remains well below where Labour were in 2015.

Corbyn, and frankly any baggage laden lefty are the problem here. The UK is not Europe, we have an entirely different electoral system which creates way more stickiness in voting. It's virtually impossible for the two mainstream parties to poll lower than 30% on a consistent basis.

Labour members might not accept Benn and that's up to them, but voters are what matters. Voters won't accept baggage laden socialists, or idiots (or both) and frankly that's all Labour's left are offering at present. I accept that Labour's left doesn't have a great pool of MPs, but talent rises and frankly this might well be as good as it gets. Angela Rayner might well be the cream of the Labour Left, Angela Rayner....pauses to let that sink in.........Labour have two by-elections coming up. They are defending seats against a government who has imposed massively unpopular policies and has its own internal issues, and the other against some borderline racists. If they don't have crushing victories in both then they are totally incompetent. The concept of losing either is, or at least should be totally unquestionable. Now I suspect they'll hold on in Stoke but that the Tories stand a chance in Copeland is indicative of how appalling Corbyn's reign has been.

Pick an inspirational lefty without baggage and the Labour Party will follow, much like the Tory Party followed Cameron (who was very much. It from the right of that party). The country might too. Stick with a decent and principled fool and you're bang in trouble. Replace him with unprincipled fool (see McDonnell, John) and you're done.
Don't believe it. Divided parties don't win. Mays government would be finished if she had the equivalent. Talent will be had if we get mass reselections and get rid of Benn and co.

You might not like it but labour members won't accept Benn. So you can moan all you want, it's not happening. We need a huge change in the PLP. Benn and co are unelectable dross.

The current PLP are largely selfish stuck the mud waste of spaces and won't accept a left leader no matter what.
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  #10035  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:24 PM
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And yet every other post you make you're ranting on about class
Mainly in response to others. But where I have it's because of how class affects politics, there are always exceptions.
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  #10036  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by El Aguila View Post
A bloke called Hillary?
Will that play well in the North?
Didn't someone on here say he was a Palace fan? He might be MP for Leeds but I think he had family from Croydon. I thought Tony Benn's grand daughter was a Labour candidate in Croydon at the last election? Oh and the membership voted for a Jeremy.
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  #10037  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:26 PM
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He's an MP for Leeds
Oh well, fair enough then.
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  #10038  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post


He's the one that reckons May has given up on hard Brexit!

On CR's divided party explanation, it only goes so far. Labour won elections in the 60s and 70s with divisions all over the shop. Labour is naturally more 'divided' or full of debate than the Tories as we represent a much broader constituency and they like the smack of a strong leader, they want someone to tell them what to think and do, all the better if it's a harsh mistress. New Labour control freakery is another Tory-lite aberration.
There may have been divisions but not the wish to destroy their leader?
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  #10039  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Starmer has a track record of management outside parliament. That is one thing in his favour. I can't yet work him out though. He sounds knowledgable but some people have the habit of seeming competent without actually saying anything. Let him run with Brexit and build up a track record as a shadow minister. Hillary Benn would make a good leader. In the meantime Labour needs to get behind Corbyn.
The PLP are never going to get behind Corbyn. But they are not being openly hostile any more, which is something. This lack of open hostility has had bugger all impact on Labour's polling, because the divisions in the party are not a major factor for the electorate.

The electorate think Corbyn's incompetent. Mainly because he's incompetent. Labour should be 5 points clear of the Tories at a minimum. The Tories are not polling 40% plus because people like them, it's because the major U.K. Parties are a shower of shite at the moment and they are possibly viewed as the least incompetent, and also are incumbent.

Think about that for a second, this government is polling 40% plus. This government. It's almost unfathomable that this could be possible.
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  #10040  
Old 14-02-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
There may have been divisions but not the wish to destroy their leader?
Yes this is the difference. The current group on the Labour right are the worst in our history. I can barely look at them when they come on TV. You're right they should be kicked out but you know that's next to impossible in the short term.

Adlers' rants are just the usual ahistorical liberal regurgitations.
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