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  #10081  
Old 20-02-2017, 02:37 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Is the capitalism of social responsibility a thing? Or are you getting CSR and conscious capitalism blurred?
It was more a slogan than an already agreed upon concept. I'm not au fait with much economic theory
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  #10082  
Old 20-02-2017, 02:39 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Originally Posted by ebyeeckeagle View Post
Agree with much of what you write. But I would argue he doesn't greatly appeal to the 'working class' (however that is defined). Certainly, there is an awful lot of apathy in the most traditional Labour areas towards corbyn, and politics generally tbf, so not sure his language does connect.
I think the way he galvanised support from working class people in his leadership campaign shouldn't be forgotten. I think there was a great sense of hope, but since then he's failed to communicate a message heartlands can get behind.

He knows who and how to talk to people but not what to say
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  #10083  
Old 20-02-2017, 04:04 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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If Labour wins both seats on Thursday it will not be credited to Corbs but if they lose one or the other he will get the blame.
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  #10084  
Old 20-02-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
If Labour wins both seats on Thursday it will not be credited to Corbs but if they lose one or the other he will get the blame.
these are seats where victory shouldn't be in question. The only reason there is any doubt is because Corbyn has an approval rating of minus 38 (and that's with 22% of Tory voters saying they are satisfied with him.....)

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Of course if the unthinkable happens and they don't have resounding victories Corbyn has to take a large share of the blame.
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  #10085  
Old 20-02-2017, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Far East Eagle View Post
Both are on the right of the party?
Yeap both right wing of the party. Blairites.
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  #10086  
Old 20-02-2017, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
But it would provide what the constituents who voted for the Labour Party candidates want, no?

Or is this an early start on the "had the CLPs picked socialists we'd be walking these by-elections" line of defence if somehow Labour don't easily win both seats?
Not at all in terms of winning, but I don't think standing candidates to the right of the party will help, as they can't give any answers to the problems that people are facing.

It is true that the members in the CLP picked the candidates. In Copeland they did ban any members from voting who joined in the last six months, and they hadn't done that in the past. Given the left candidate only lost by a handful of votes this would almost certainly have swung the result of the candidate.

In Stoke no left candidate was allowed on the long list, let alone the short list, so members had no left candidate to pick from (despite one wanting to stand).
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  #10087  
Old 20-02-2017, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
The problems of the labour party are much much bigger than Corbyn.

You've got a massive but loose coalition of different groups. You've got your centerists, your soft lefts and your hard lefts. They all want different things that don't really overlap and that's largely the problem.

The conservative ideology is narrower, less diverse and has less class divides.

The centre are socially liberal and economically not oppossed to Neo Liberalism. The growing divide is that this is largely London centric and very middle class. The machinery of the party and the majority of MP's and activists are in this bubble and have no idea how to connect or communicate with the working class, bread and butter voters of Trad Labour.

Corbyn's deft at speaking to working class people and empathising and appearing to care and that's why he galvanised such support. His problem is he can't deliver a consistent message to save his life. He's incompetent and surrounds himself with hackneyed provocateurs like Milne and McDonnell who see chaos as a good thing IMO

The credibility of the centre of the party has been destroyed by Blair managing to pull a rabbit from a hat once and they keep trying to repeat the trick in vain. You need to show foresight and have a credible plan going forward, not try to react to public mood and dance on the head of a pin to get elected. They appear to working class voters, as slick,alien and untrustworthy.

The party needs to go back to basic, grass roots politics. It needs to decide its positions and then go for them.

The brexit position of Labour should be that while the majority of those who voted, voted for Brexit, the Labour party wants to be the party of the 100% and not the 52%. They should state that they will honor the result of the referendum BUT they need to do so in a way that recognises the concerns of those oppossed to Brexit.

The position on Nuclear should imo either be put to a referendum or another commons vote, with the full facts availible.

The position on immigration should be to hammer home how beneficial to the overall economy immigration is and how positive it is, but highlight that under invested areas need further governmental assitance in dealing with the impact of increases in population.

Keep funding the NHS but demand that efficent procceses are put in place to avoid wastage.

the economy needs to move away from neo-liberalism and there needs to be the capitalism of social responsibility.

Etc etc
Agree with lots of this, interesting post.
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  #10088  
Old 20-02-2017, 08:04 PM
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Snell is more Ed Miliband than Blair to be fair. Looks like Stoke is going well anyway, partly thanks to a tremendous canvass turn out from members from all over the country, a direct result of having more members to go around due to the Corbyn effect.

Copeland more iffy, but also had loads of outside help and excellent that May's visit backfired when she wouldn't back the local hospital staying open, one of many around the country facing closure.

It's possible the future of the NHS hangs on these results. If the Tories (or UKIP) win they'll see it as a green light to strip more of it away and faster. If we win it's a great boost to campaigns to save the hospitals and walk-in centres on their hit list of death.
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  #10089  
Old 20-02-2017, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Snell is more Ed Miliband than Blair to be fair. Looks like Stoke is going well anyway, partly thanks to a tremendous canvass turn out from members from all over the country, a direct result of having more members to go around due to the Corbyn effect.

Copeland more iffy, but also had loads of outside help and excellent that May's visit backfired when she wouldn't back the local hospital staying open, one of many around the country facing closure.

It's possible the future of the NHS hangs on these results. If the Tories (or UKIP) win they'll see it as a green light to strip more of it away and faster. If we win it's a great boost to campaigns to save the hospitals and walk-in centres on their hit list of death.
His leaflet is a massive st george's flag and proud to be local. Bit dog whistle in the climate. I think he's to the right of Miliband.

Yeah huge mobilisation, hundreds from momentum.
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  #10090  
Old 20-02-2017, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Not at all in terms of winning, but I don't think standing candidates to the right of the party will help, as they can't give any answers to the problems that people are facing.

It is true that the members in the CLP picked the candidates. In Copeland they did ban any members from voting who joined in the last six months, and they hadn't done that in the past. Given the left candidate only lost by a handful of votes this would almost certainly have swung the result of the candidate.

In Stoke no left candidate was allowed on the long list, let alone the short list, so members had no left candidate to pick from (despite one wanting to stand).
If they had selected a candidate in Copeland who was on the left of the party, where would they have stood on new nuclear build in the constituency?
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  #10091  
Old 20-02-2017, 10:07 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is online now
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If they had selected a candidate in Copeland who was on the left of the party, where would they have stood on new nuclear build in the constituency?
Not sure that's a left/right issue. I have no issue with nuclear power but think a lot more investment should be put in to alternative energy as its safer and creates more jobs. The investment should be built up in old coal mining communities where possible and where nuclear power is if it is phased out.
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  #10092  
Old 20-02-2017, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Not sure that's a left/right issue. I have no issue with nuclear power but think a lot more investment should be put in to alternative energy as its safer and creates more jobs. The investment should be built up in old coal mining communities where possible and where nuclear power is if it is phased out.
erm.

You'll notice one thing about pretty much ever existing or proposed nuclear site in the UK regarding geographical location.....

as for alternative energy, well tidal needs tides. Solar needs sun and you have to be really careful where you put wind. Former mining communities are not exactly blessed with tides or sun, and may or may not be in the right place for wind.
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  #10093  
Old 20-02-2017, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Not sure that's a left/right issue. I have no issue with nuclear power but think a lot more investment should be put in to alternative energy as its safer and creates more jobs. The investment should be built up in old coal mining communities where possible and where nuclear power is if it is phased out.
I think the perception in Copeland is that Corbyn has been evasive on this issue and a left-leaning candidate might be similar. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown (right of the party) were clearly pro-nuclear. Someone who is not pro-nuclear will struggle in Copeland.
I also recognise that the services in the local hospital are key. To put it in perspective, imagine if some services were cut from a hospital and moved to the next nearest hospital, which was in B******n. That's the scenario. And for some services, you would have to go as far as Bournemouth. Labour should win on that issue.
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  #10094  
Old 20-02-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Selhurst300 View Post
I think the perception in Copeland is that Corbyn has been evasive on this issue and a left-leaning candidate might be similar. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown (right of the party) were clearly pro-nuclear. Someone who is not pro-nuclear will struggle in Copeland.
I also recognise that the services in the local hospital are key. To put it in perspective, imagine if some services were cut from a hospital and moved to the next nearest hospital, which was in B******n. That's the scenario. And for some services, you would have to go as far as Bournemouth. Labour should win on that issue.
Agree about NHS.

I think it would have been fairly easy to have a left candidate who wasn't anti nuclear power.
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  #10095  
Old 20-02-2017, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
erm.

You'll notice one thing about pretty much ever existing or proposed nuclear site in the UK regarding geographical location.....

as for alternative energy, well tidal needs tides. Solar needs sun and you have to be really careful where you put wind. Former mining communities are not exactly blessed with tides or sun, and may or may not be in the right place for wind.
Obviously where possible in regards to mining communities and alternative energy.

Again on nuclear I don't think it's a right or left issue.
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  #10096  
Old 20-02-2017, 11:00 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Corbyn has to at some stage to commit to a source for extra spending on the NHS. It's no good just opposing cuts and hinting at more money without explaining where the dosh is coming from. Otherwise nobody will believe you.
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  #10097  
Old 20-02-2017, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Corbyn has to at some stage to commit to a source for extra spending on the NHS. It's no good just opposing cuts and hinting at more money without explaining where the dosh is coming from. Otherwise nobody will believe you.
I don't think anybody will believe him anyway to be fair.
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  #10098  
Old 20-02-2017, 11:05 PM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
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Milliband didn't lose by being too left wing, he lost because he wasn't one thing or the other. He was dangling around in the middle, ineffectually trying to please everyone.
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  #10099  
Old 20-02-2017, 11:55 PM
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Milliband didn't lose by being too left wing, he lost because he wasn't one thing or the other. He was dangling around in the middle, ineffectually trying to please everyone.
Well to be more accurate, he lost because he wasn't his brother.
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  #10100  
Old 21-02-2017, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
His leaflet is a massive st george's flag and proud to be local. Bit dog whistle in the climate.
Reclaiming the flag from the f*cktards is no bad thing.
It is possible to be a patriotic Socialist.
No that I believe this candidate is one.
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