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  #10141  
Old 21-02-2017, 07:32 PM
Baffled Bob 2 Baffled Bob 2 is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
National socialist?

In all seriousness though I don't think socialist should pander to nationalism and patriotism, they aren't things that will ultimately help workers and are ideas for the rich to divide workers.
Which effectively means:

If you have a daft and sentimental attachment to your country because of the Beatles and Tony Hancock, please don't vote for me.
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  #10142  
Old 21-02-2017, 08:17 PM
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Is that your reaction when the Beatles come on, to raise the Union Jack? Christ that's depressing.
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  #10143  
Old 21-02-2017, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by daverambo2 View Post
But no one is going to get elected on a punt. Let's try it out and hope it doesn't bring economic disaster. It's fantasy politics.
That is what the Tories said about the NHS plan back in 1947...oh and they also said something rather similar about the minimum wage, I remember.
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  #10144  
Old 21-02-2017, 09:09 PM
Baffled Bob 2 Baffled Bob 2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Elephant with mouse gyp View Post
Is that your reaction when the Beatles come on, to raise the Union Jack? Christ that's depressing.
Of course not. And you knew precisely what I meant. Good bantz though.
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  #10145  
Old 21-02-2017, 09:41 PM
daverambo2 daverambo2 is offline
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
That is what the Tories said about the NHS plan back in 1947...oh and they also said something rather similar about the minimum wage, I remember.
1947 was shortly after this thing called the Second World War.
How Corbyns plan possibly compares to the minimum wage is beyond me.

The minimum wage had a very specific vision as did the NHS.
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  #10146  
Old 21-02-2017, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by daverambo2 View Post
1947 was shortly after this thing called the Second World War.
Precisely. The Tories back then said it couldn't be afforded because of it, among many other objections

Quote:
How Corbyns plan possibly compares to the minimum wage is beyond me.
Well quite, because it doesn't, and I cited it because I was taking a pop at your "fantasy" jibes. That word is casually and too often overused, and I don't like it because it can stifle genuine intent and innovation.

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The minimum wage had a very specific vision as did the NHS.
The word "vision" in my view, should only be used where it is a vision for the 80%, those that have, and continue to get a raw deal under austerity, while the other 20% are doing very well thank you.

I think Corbyn does have the vision in this respect, even if he doesn't possess the political skills to see it through by convincing the current electorate.
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  #10147  
Old 21-02-2017, 10:34 PM
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A clear vision for a policy can be summed up in one sentance.

Free healthcare for all is a vision.

A minimum wage for every worker is a vision.

Even 'Reducing the defector by half' is a vision even if not a playable one.

What is Corbyns economic vision?
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  #10148  
Old 21-02-2017, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by daverambo2 View Post
A clear vision for a policy can be summed up in one sentance.

Free healthcare for all is a vision.

A minimum wage for every worker is a vision.

Even 'Reducing the defector by half' is a vision even if not a playable one.

What is Corbyns economic vision?
Stated my views and that's it really for me now, ta.
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  #10149  
Old 22-02-2017, 07:26 AM
N Herts Eagle N Herts Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
That is what the Tories said about the NHS plan back in 1947...oh and they also said something rather similar about the minimum wage, I remember.
The NHS 1948 certainly the Tories voted against, but lets clear a few things. They had stood on a platform of healthcare reform that represented unsurprisingly a far greater private investment model from both providers and patients. They certainly were not the only opponents from Drs to Councils there were a number of issues it was pushed through by Labour. Within two years the model needed changing, and it was part of the beginning of the end for Atlee. Charges were introduced for glasses ( I need to check think dentistry as well) because it was not affordable, this was 1951.
Now I would also argue that Labour went far further than the Tories would have in benefited far more, as part of a whole series of welfare reforms the like we have not seen before or since. Even with the charges introduced.

Last edited by N Herts Eagle; 22-02-2017 at 08:06 AM.
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  #10150  
Old 22-02-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by daverambo2 View Post
A clear vision for a policy can be summed up in one sentance.



What is Corbyns economic vision?
Does he actually have a workable one ? and does he even know what it is ? would be a more pertinent question. If its anything like foots or callaghans was, then we can look forward to a few years of strikes , high unemployment, and sky high inflation . Not to mention a guaranteed long standing tory government as a consequence . It's a no thanks from me ..And thankfully it looks like the same no thanks from everyone else .
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  #10151  
Old 22-02-2017, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by daverambo2 View Post
This is spot on. A shame as money needed to be spent in 1997 and if they were a bit smarter with it the UK would be in such a good position now.

Same goes for the cutting. Some of it was smart and has improved productivity. Some was stupid and done without though where we had the crazy stuff of making people redundant giveing them a pay off and the recruiting the exact same people a year later to do the same job.
A huge problem with Blairite spending was PFIs and their ideological dinosaur attachment to the private sector. It meant infrastructure projects cost far more and has left the public sector burdened with massive and unnecessary debt. The right centrists in the party still stand by this decision.
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  #10152  
Old 22-02-2017, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by stamford triumph View Post
He would now be Prime Minister though - he would have trounced lovable Dave. Shame the unions chose an ally rather than someone in the slightest bit electable - suppose they would rather stick to their principles and be forever in opposition.
Don't agree at all. People don't want tired up right centrist politics. And if they want right wing politics they will go for the real deal in the Tories. His politics are a generation behind.
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  #10153  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
A huge problem with Blairite spending was PFIs and their ideological dinosaur attachment to the private sector. It meant infrastructure projects cost far more and has left the public sector burdened with massive and unnecessary debt. The right centrists in the party still stand by this decision.
i don't think anyone stands by PFI as it was done. I remember looking at some deals in the very early 2000s in a professional capacity and laughing at the economics of them.

However there are ways that the government can use its credit rating to support business / investment without signing stupid contracts. We do it with exports all the time. You are familiar with UKEF? That could easily be adapted.
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  #10154  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:22 AM
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Under the British system in what way are candidates of any party responsible to their membership? Salaries are paid for by public money and they are in office by grace of their constituents. When they take their seats they take a legal oath of allegiance to the Queen, not to the party. Only their constituents can remove them from their seat.

If they want to just be responsible to the party they should work for the party not for the people.
They are responsible to both. However if they want to continue to stand as a candidate for a party, under that political parties name, then they need to do what members want. Otherwise they should be deselected and they have the option of standing as an independent or for another political party.
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  #10155  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Baffled Bob 2 View Post
Which effectively means:

If you have a daft and sentimental attachment to your country because of the Beatles and Tony Hancock, please don't vote for me.
I have a sentimental attachment to a lot of music, culture and people. Not all of them are from the UK.

Also just because you're against nationalism doesn't mean you have to patronise people.
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  #10156  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
i don't think anyone stands by PFI as it was done. I remember looking at some deals in the very early 2000s in a professional capacity and laughing at the economics of them.

However there are ways that the government can use its credit rating to support business / investment without signing stupid contracts. We do it with exports all the time. You are familiar with UKEF? That could easily be adapted.
Not familiar with UKEF but agree that many of the contracts that were signed were terrible. However it would be cheapest to build things through well run direct labour organisations and cheap government borrowing.

It's not true about PFIs. Heidi Alexander in Lewisham refused to criticise them in the save Lewisham A&E campaign, and right centrists in my CLP, including Chuka Umunna, still defend them.
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  #10157  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:46 AM
Halftime Gold Halftime Gold is offline
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Originally Posted by stamford triumph View Post
He would now be Prime Minister though - he would have trounced lovable Dave. Shame the unions chose an ally rather than someone in the slightest bit electable - suppose they would rather stick to their principles and be forever in opposition.
Would he? New Labour had lost pretty much all press support by 2010 and a lot of Miliband's earlier polling success came from pushing an anti austerity message that he had badly watered down by the time of the GE.

Of course even if he was elected I'd say the positive benefit to a lot of the electorate would be highly questionable given the climate relative to the late 90's and early 00's where increasing public spending could happen without upsetting the established order nearly as much.

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  #10158  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
A huge problem with Blairite spending was PFIs and their ideological dinosaur attachment to the private sector. It meant infrastructure projects cost far more and has left the public sector burdened with massive and unnecessary debt. The right centrists in the party still stand by this decision.
For once CR, I totally agree with everything you say in a post.
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  #10159  
Old 22-02-2017, 10:58 AM
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For once CR, I totally agree with everything you say in a post.
Stopped clock and all that
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  #10160  
Old 22-02-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Not familiar with UKEF but agree that many of the contracts that were signed were terrible. However it would be cheapest to build things through well run direct labour organisations and cheap government borrowing.

It's not true about PFIs. Heidi Alexander in Lewisham refused to criticise them in the save Lewisham A&E campaign, and right centrists in my CLP, including Chuka Umunna, still defend them.
they weren't all total disasters, and it is certainly possible to set one up so UK plc isn't raped by the private sector, but in the main that didn't happen at all.
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