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  #6241  
Old 15-11-2016, 02:41 PM
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Will less landlords mean less properties to rent... which will lead to rent rises?
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  #6242  
Old 15-11-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
Will less landlords mean less properties to rent... which will lead to rent rises?
Yes. The interesting question is will it have a bigger impact on the rental sector prices than any decrease in the sales price. For instance if you take 25% out of the rental sector but that only leads to a 5% increase in the owned sector, what happens?

There are 23.4m residential homes in the U.K at the last census. 15.something million owned, and 8.something million rented. So cutting 25% of rental to owning about 2m, which is less than a 10% increase in residential supply.
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  #6243  
Old 15-11-2016, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
Yes. The interesting question is will it have a bigger impact on the rental sector prices than any decrease in the sales price. For instance if you take 25% out of the rental sector but that only leads to a 5% increase in the owned sector, what happens?

There are 23.4m residential homes in the U.K at the last census. 15.something million owned, and 8.something million rented. So cutting 25% of rental to owning about 2m, which is less than a 10% increase in residential supply.
Do what?

Presumably what actually happens in reality is rents rise as people sell their BTL's and the supply decreases but that can only go as far as there is enough buyers and some BTL's will just have to suck it up and keep on renting even if they aren't making money? or take a one off hit and sell cheap. Is there really likely to be enough trying to desperately get out to force the whole sales market down?

Last edited by scro; 15-11-2016 at 03:49 PM.
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  #6244  
Old 15-11-2016, 03:49 PM
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Slightly more than 1 in 3 property's owned by Landlords , I thought we were supposed to a Nation of owner occupiers ?
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  #6245  
Old 15-11-2016, 04:11 PM
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The BTL market to me has been one of the biggest causes of wealth inequality.

In truth interest rates need to rise.
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Old 15-11-2016, 04:14 PM
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The rise of multi home ownership and the fall of home ownership by our young people will both grow inequality and cause long term problems as people age. The problem is that buy to letters will become an ever more powerful lobby so it will be difficult to reverse. The best solution would be to build more homes so there is enough for both.
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  #6247  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:00 PM
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  #6248  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:02 PM
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The impact of private student housing development shouldn't be underestimated, especially in the major cities.
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  #6249  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
The rise of multi home ownership and the fall of home ownership by our young people will both grow inequality and cause long term problems as people age. The problem is that buy to letters will become an ever more powerful lobby so it will be difficult to reverse. The best solution would be to build more homes so there is enough for both.
I think the recent tax changes will likely see the end of the amateur landlord and the rise in corporate landlords.
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  #6250  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:14 PM
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I think the recent tax changes will likely see the end of the amateur landlord and the rise in corporate landlords.
Well, one would assume that was the aim!!

Remove offsetting costs against tax from private individuals, but leave it open for companies ...
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  #6251  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:28 PM
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Yes. The interesting question is will it have a bigger impact on the rental sector prices than any decrease in the sales price. For instance if you take 25% out of the rental sector but that only leads to a 5% increase in the owned sector, what happens?

There are 23.4m residential homes in the U.K at the last census. 15.something million owned, and 8.something million rented. So cutting 25% of rental to owning about 2m, which is less than a 10% increase in residential supply.
But still the same number of properties in total. So unless the average rental property has higher occupancy than the average owner occupied property I don't follow your logic. It's a zero sum game; same number of properties, same number of residents.

Obviously external factors such as population growth/reduction will have an impact but they are not driven by whether people are selling off rental property or not.

The major drivers of both property values and rental prices surely have to be supply and demand overall in the combined rental and owner occupier market?

Personally I think this tax will take some heat out of the market, as will the benefits cap (plenty of families I know of in Lewisham having to move out of London because they can no longer afford to rent), worldwide recession impacts on overseas buyers, and ultimately interest rate rises in the UK (which may be coming sooner rather than later worldwide if Trump goes mad on infrastructure projects).
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  #6252  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:28 PM
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Well, one would assume that was the aim!!

Remove offsetting costs against tax from private individuals, but leave it open for companies ...
Agreed.

As Stellavista has said, pension funds have already entered the student accommodation market.

The build to rent market will be huge.
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  #6253  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:29 PM
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Ultimately, as a 25 year old potential first time buyer over the next 12 months, am I likely to see anything that will be of joy to me over that period?
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  #6254  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:38 PM
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But still the same number of properties in total. So unless the average rental property has higher occupancy than the average owner occupied property I don't follow your logic. It's a zero sum game; same number of properties, same number of residents.
it isn't a zero sum game though.

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  #6255  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:50 PM
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I have to say - good. I see the Telegraph is having a go and trying to get the new lot to remove the extra taxes on BTL landlords - about the only good that the previous bunch did for first time buyers. Methinks there are a lot of people on the Telegraph editorial panel with BTL's as this looks like special pleading par excellance.

Houses on the market will be good for the economy generally when people buy houses they spend out on other things as well - kitchens , bathrooms etc far more than the average rather stingy BTL landlord does.
This is just another lazy stereotype as all landlords being stingy, mega rich Scrooge like land barons, who need to be demonised and taxed to the hilt.

A BTL investment is a business and like all businesses, rising costs are invariably passed onto the customers, i.e. the tenant. Being taxed on revenue is ludicrously unfair as landlords will end up paying tax, even if their cost of financing and maintaining the property outweighs the rental yield.

It's just a way of the government scapegoating landlords to absolve themselves from their obligation to address the wages vs house prices disparity, and ultimately the additional costs will end up in higher rents. Stupid and counter productive move from the government as it will just mean those stuck in the rent trap will even worse off and even less likely to be able to afford their own home.
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  #6256  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:53 PM
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it isn't a zero sum game though.

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I agree, countless things mean overall it isn't a zero sum game. It's a very complex market. And more young adults living longer with their parents is part of that. But my point was that, taken in isolation, private landlords selling off property doesn't either reduce or increase overall demand for property, or the overall supply of it.
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  #6257  
Old 15-11-2016, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ExCroydon_CPFC View Post
This is just another lazy stereotype as all landlords being stingy, mega rich Scrooge like land barons, who need to be demonised and taxed to the hilt.

A BTL investment is a business and like all businesses, rising costs are invariably passed onto the customers, i.e. the tenant. Being taxed on revenue is ludicrously unfair as landlords will end up paying tax, even if their cost of financing and maintaining the property outweighs the rental yield.

It's just a way of the government scapegoating landlords to absolve themselves from their obligation to address the wages vs house prices disparity, and ultimately the additional costs will end up in higher rents. Stupid and counter productive move from the government as it will just mean those stuck in the rent trap will even worse off and even less likely to be able to afford their own home.
well you could of course incorporate and maintain your interest deduction. I would imagine there will be a fat SDLT receipt associated with that.

It's quite a neat bit of law tbh. Either there is an increase in the housing supply for buyers (and SDLT) or there is more tax through non-deductible interest or an SDLT charge to maintain you interest deduction.

What's not to like
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Old 15-11-2016, 06:03 PM
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I agree, countless things mean overall it isn't a zero sum game. It's a very complex market. And more young adults living longer with their parents is part of that. But my point was that, taken in isolation, private landlords selling off property doesn't either reduce or increase overall demand for property, or the overall supply of it.
Not in the number of homes, no, in isolation. But I think that it is reasonably obvious that a substantial increase in supply of houses for purchase (and corresponding decrease in those available for let leading to no overall change in number of houses) will result lead to a spike in the number of households (solely from the living at home thing) and that will lead to inconsistent changes to rental and purchases prices.

There are certainly other factors as well, but they are not as immediate.
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Old 15-11-2016, 06:17 PM
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well you could of course incorporate and maintain your interest deduction. I would imagine there will be a fat SDLT receipt associated with that.

It's quite a neat bit of law tbh. Either there is an increase in the housing supply for buyers (and SDLT) or there is more tax through non-deductible interest or an SDLT charge to maintain you interest deduction.

What's not to like
Incorporate?! Do you know what that involves and the stamp duty itself would wipe out any marginal tax benefit. It works against so many principles of uk tax law as well, so much so that a legal challenge must be in the pipeline somewhere.

It's not a neat bit of law at all, it's a knee jerk reaction punishing hard working, tax paying (and I can tell you I already pay a damn site more than the average person) people, who have taken a risk and gamble on an investment...as is not like a fecking isa is going to look after you in your retirement.

Not everyone wants to own a house and due to the over subscription and under suppy, the government can't provide enough social housing. So it's private landlord who are meeting the demand for tenancies and taking all the risks (as well as rewards), on behalf of those who want the flexibility of renting, or are refused council housing. And as I said earlier, the additional tax costs will just be passed onto the tenants themselves via higher rents.
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Old 15-11-2016, 06:23 PM
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They won't all be. The market won't accept it and people will be forced to sell or pay the SDLT to incorporate.

You'll get over it.

I am entertained by your suggestion of a legal challenge though. Massively
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