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  #201  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:30 PM
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I've read arguments on either side and the distance between them looks thin. Obviously I'm no lawyer but I can't see how invoking Article 50 itself defies Constitutional conventions while I do see how they would require Parliament to approve the final withdrawal agreement, and delete/replace the European Communities Act. In between, I cannot see how the Government can avoid debate in Parliament on key A50 issues such as regulations, contractual law, supervisory authorities, citizen rights etc etc.
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  #202  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:33 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong Mik, but haven't you spent literally months railing against the likes of Biggin and Mat as being ignorant and naive when they suggested trade could be sorted..... I must have missed the apology....
I think it is clear that we cannot conclude trade deals while still an EU member and I think some of the evidence from some experts in various Brexit hearings is contest able. In fact, I was reading an online argument today between experts on the issue of who negotiates for the EU. I think what is going on over the trade deals is the idea that when the withdrawal agreement is agreed then what must also be agreed (politically) is the structure for the UK's future relationship with the EU and that can act, in practice, as the guidelines for a EU-UK trade deal.
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  #203  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:35 PM
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This online argument.... it wasn't Maz and Mat was it???
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  #204  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:43 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong Mik, but haven't you spent literally months railing against the likes of Biggin and Mat as being ignorant and naive when they suggested trade could be sorted..... I must have missed the apology....
So here is the legal waffle on UK trade deals with the EU, with 3rd countries and negotiations inside WTO on new UK schedules. In short, they can not be "sorted" as in concluded until after we are no longer an EU Member State.

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  #205  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:45 PM
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This online argument.... it wasn't Maz and Mat was it???
[I said "experts"]
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  #206  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
So here is the legal waffle on UK trade deals with the EU, with 3rd countries and negotiations inside WTO on new UK schedules. In short, they can not be "sorted" as in concluded until after we are no longer an EU Member State.

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That's always been the case hasn't it? The rest of the world will need to know our relationship with the EU before it signs anything with this, so nothing will happen before article 50, and probably several years after that.

In other news it's perhaps no surprise that the royal family will be doing a lot of trips abroad in the near future
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  #207  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:56 PM
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This is all desperate jobsworth stuff by the lawyers and the Remoaners ramming their snouts as far as possible into the depths of the EU trough, to extract every last of droplet of gravy.

The complexities of transferring arrangements that cannot be done 'at a stroke' can be put into escrow for such a process to take place comprehensively with all parties continuing to be protected.

Otherwise what the Remoaners hate to face up to is the prospect that what they fondly like to imagine as a byzantine web of such spidery complexity as to make it practically impossible for an EU Member State to actually do an A.50 'exit', is mere gossamer which can be swept aside, if necessary unilaterally and enforced likewise. The classic example is our territorial waters. They're there, they're ours, that's that. Get o-v-e-r it.
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  #208  
Old 30-09-2016, 04:58 PM
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Actually, it's just reality.

Hard to get over reality when you think about it.
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  #209  
Old 30-09-2016, 05:07 PM
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This is all desperate jobsworth stuff by the lawyers and the Remoaners ramming their snouts as far as possible into the depths of the EU trough, to extract every last of droplet of gravy.

The complexities of transferring arrangements that cannot be done 'at a stroke' can be put into escrow for such a process to take place comprehensively with all parties continuing to be protected.

Otherwise what the Remoaners hate to face up to is the prospect that what they fondly like to imagine as a byzantine web of such spidery complexity as to make it practically impossible for an EU Member State to actually do an A.50 'exit', is mere gossamer which can be swept aside, if necessary unilaterally and enforced likewise. The classic example is our territorial waters. They're there, they're ours, that's that. Get o-v-e-r it.
So you agree with me and the Matrix Chambers guy that trade deals etc can be negotiated but not concluded until after we have left the EU. You could have just said that rather having yet another pop.
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  #210  
Old 30-09-2016, 05:08 PM
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Actually, it's just reality.

Hard to get over reality when you think about it.
I couldn't agree more. We invoke A50 and have 2 years precisely from that date to sign things, dot 'i's and cross 't's.

Anything outstanding after that can, by agreement, be put into an 'escrow' for the legal haggling to continue, or can be unilaterally or bilaterally (by the UK and the EU) torn up and shredded.

If the latter happens it will then fall to each sovereign to act accordinlgy within its powers. So if we haven't agreed a UK-EU trade deal, for example, then there isn't one and both sides decide on tariffs, quotas, duties and bans, as they wish, which may or may not fit with whatever commitments they may or may not have, or may or may not wish to have, with the WTO.

Everyone else not directly involved can do as they wish when they wish.
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  #211  
Old 30-09-2016, 05:15 PM
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So you agree with me and the Matrix Chambers guy that trade deals etc can be negotiated but not concluded until after we have left the EU. You could have just said that rather having yet another pop.
Well, I don't think that a Midnight Hour needs to be insisted upon if everyone is happy to go ahead from whatever point it is that all choose, even if that was ahead of exact legal date of departure.

Let's assume, purely hypothetically, that everything gets sorted out and everyone agreed to some sort of signing ceremony to 'unsign' us formally from the EU (they might call it the Brexit Agreement) on a set date.

If the new arrangements can go ahead 'transitionally' then fine - why not road test them, pilot them, etc. If everyone agrees we can implement Brexit before the two year period from A50, then let's not waste any time and go ahead as soon as we can.

If you mean can the UK go off and sign other deals with other non-EU partners before a Brexit Agreement date, then no, I think in fairness, as long as we are not discriminated against by the EU or any of its components, I think that the UK can enter into negotiations with non-EU partners as of A.50, but with enactment being the Brexit Agreement date.
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  #212  
Old 30-09-2016, 05:31 PM
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Upon further consideration, I can foresee some circumstances where if the two sides reach an agreement well before the 2-years post-A50 are up, then rather than insisting that things cannot be changed before a specific date of Brexit, it might be unfair upon most probably the UK to hold us to the EU Yoke for an unnecessary period of time when we can just get on, get out and go our own way.

My suspicions are that lurking below the surface of all this is the dreaded subject of money. Now, we all know that one of the winning argumetns for a Brexit was the cost to the UK of being in the accursed EU.

It doesn't take Machiavelli to see that the EU will go for extreme maximum extraction of all money-related urinary substances from the UK to Brussels for as long as humanly possible as they will be seriously skint without us. Therefore forcing the clock to tick for 2 years whilst Brussels 'rapes and pillages' us might require a cut-off action from us unilaterally.

After all the only comeback Brussels will have over us is "sanctions" and we can match those quite easily. There's plenty of wine and motorcars in this world without having to buy EU stuff. Detroit must already be licking its lips.
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  #213  
Old 30-09-2016, 08:53 PM
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Upon further consideration, I can foresee some circumstances where if the two sides reach an agreement well before the 2-years post-A50 are up, then rather than insisting that things cannot be changed before a specific date of Brexit, it might be unfair upon most probably the UK to hold us to the EU Yoke for an unnecessary period of time when we can just get on, get out and go our own way.

My suspicions are that lurking below the surface of all this is the dreaded subject of money. Now, we all know that one of the winning argumetns for a Brexit was the cost to the UK of being in the accursed EU.

It doesn't take Machiavelli to see that the EU will go for extreme maximum extraction of all money-related urinary substances from the UK to Brussels for as long as humanly possible as they will be seriously skint without us. Therefore forcing the clock to tick for 2 years whilst Brussels 'rapes and pillages' us might require a cut-off action from us unilaterally.

After all the only comeback Brussels will have over us is "sanctions" and we can match those quite easily. There's plenty of wine and motorcars in this world without having to buy EU stuff. Detroit must already be licking its lips.
Seriously, I don't expect that settling the funding will be much of an issue. Winding down both UK contributions and receipts are well within the compass of what happens normally on EU funding. And the EU is getting well prepared for the UK loss. Member State contributions are only 75% (and falling) of overall EU spend so UK net contribution is only on average about 10% of total spend.
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  #214  
Old 30-09-2016, 09:10 PM
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  #215  
Old 01-10-2016, 04:56 AM
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When you leave a club, why do you need to conform to that club's rules when you are leaving?

The answer is that you don't need to conform to anything that you don't need to.

The EU cannot invoke any kind of sanction against the UK because our exit does not conform to the EU's "rules". We are too valuable to the EU as a trading partner.

We can simply exit on our terms and what can they do about it?
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  #216  
Old 01-10-2016, 08:18 AM
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When you leave a club, why do you need to conform to that club's rules when you are leaving?

The answer is that you don't need to conform to anything that you don't need to.

The EU cannot invoke any kind of sanction against the UK because our exit does not conform to the EU's "rules". We are too valuable to the EU as a trading partner.

We can simply exit on our terms and what can they do about it?
Classic Divism.
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  #217  
Old 01-10-2016, 08:19 AM
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  #218  
Old 01-10-2016, 08:35 AM
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Ok, but what's YOUR main point from the article?
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  #219  
Old 01-10-2016, 08:46 AM
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  #220  
Old 01-10-2016, 09:22 AM
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When you leave a club, why do you need to conform to that club's rules when you are leaving?

The answer is that you don't need to conform to anything that you don't need to.

The EU cannot invoke any kind of sanction against the UK because our exit does not conform to the EU's "rules". We are too valuable to the EU as a trading partner.

We can simply exit on our terms and what can they do about it?
If there were no Article 50 then under the Vienna Convention the UK could leave the EU under its own terms but since there is a Article 50 then the UK is legally bound to use it or else it would be in breach of international law. Not only would this make it unlikely that the EU would agree a new Treaty with the UK, namely a trade deal, but it would make many other countries reluctant to make trade deals as we would be an outlaw.
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