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  #21  
Old 06-07-2006, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GanbareWashi
I've cheated and gone for a squad of 23 players

GK: Shilton
GK: Seaman
GK: Martyn

FB: Pearce
FB: Sansom
FB: Parker
FB: Cole A.

CB: Terry
CB: Ferdinand
CB: Butcher
CB: Adams

MF: Robson
MF: Gerrard
MF: Beckham
MF: Gazza
MF: Ince
MF: Brooking
MF: Scholes

ST: Rooney
ST: Owen
ST: Lineker
ST: Keegan
ST: Shearer

Even Sven could pick a good team out of that squad
Don't bet on it!
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  #22  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:07 PM
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Re: England's Golden Generation

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ElwissAtMemphis
[B]It's been a favourite theory in the media this past year, that this year's England squad was the best since 1966. Given the righteous fury here and elsewhere with England's quarter final exit, it strikes me as being a theory that a lot of people here subscribe to too. So let's try to put it to the test.

Excluding 1970, when many of the 1966 players were still playing, below is a list of all the England players that played in all the subsequent World Cup finals. Obviously, a lot played in 2 or more tournaments so they only appear for the first time they appeared.quote)

Not sure you can exclude 1970. Many pundits would tell you that the 70 squad was better than the 66 squad and for two incidents-Banks illness and Sir Alf taking off Booby Charlton slighty too early, England would have played Brazil in the final and may well have won back to back titles. So I am going to include some of the 70 squad

(4-4-2)

Banks (70)

Newton (70)
Moore (70)
Terry (06)
Sansom (82)

Waddle (90)
Bell (70)
Charlton (70)
Cole (06)

Lineker (86 & 90)
Shearer (98)

Sub's Shilton, Pearce, Butcher, Gazza, Owen.
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  #23  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:18 PM
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Do you really rate Pearce above Ashley Cole? Or is that Ashley in midfield?
I think Terry Cooper was probably better than SP, as well.
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  #24  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:21 PM
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I realise that EfM is trying to suggest that Sven is really not that bad a manager but then, as has been pointed out elsewhere, no player in his squads has peaked at the World Cup.

Take the likes of Barnes, Gascoigne, Platt and Waddle, all of whom turned their best form on for the world's biggest tournament; compare and contrast that with Rooney, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Owen, Robinson et al, all of whom would barely make a pub squad, the way they played under Sven.
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  #25  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by selhurstparkflyer
I realise that EfM is trying to suggest that Sven is really not that bad a manager but then, as has been pointed out elsewhere, no player in his squads has peaked at the World Cup.

Take the likes of Barnes, Gascoigne, Platt and Waddle, all of whom turned their best form on for the world's biggest tournament; compare and contrast that with Rooney, Beckham, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Owen, Robinson et al, all of whom would barely make a pub squad, the way they played under Sven.
They might not be a golden generation but even in this WC we saw enough(Beckham's freekicks, Ferdinand and Hargreaves verus Portugal, Gerrard and Coles long distance goals) to see they most definately underperformed as a team. Given a less talented side I'd say Sven would have struggled to make it out of even that relatively easy group.
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  #26  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:43 PM
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Re: Re: England's Golden Generation

Quote:
Originally posted by screamingalice
Not sure you can exclude 1970. Many pundits would tell you that the 70 squad was better than the 66 squad and for two incidents-Banks illness and Sir Alf taking off Booby Charlton slighty too early, England would have played Brazil in the final and may well have won back to back titles. So I am going to include some of the 70 squad
The reason for that was that the media's claim is that the current squad is the best since 66 and many of those players were still playing 4 years later.

Obviously I assumed that people would pick players while they were at their peak. It's an 18 year old, 1998 vintage Michael Owen that I want coming off the bench as the oipposition begin tire. Not the injury-prone liability we glimpsed this year.

Also, my motive isn't really to say what a great manager Sven was. Just what a load of bollocks this Golden Generation hysteria is. That comment from Alan Shearer above just beggars belief. People really have bought into this idea that football suddenly got twice as good because they renamed the top flight The Premiership and started broadcasting 2 matches live a week.

It's a surprisingly small pool of players that people have picked from so far. Reassuring to see that the massively over-rated Chelsea triumvirate of Terry-Lampard-Cole have mustered null points so far.
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  #27  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by El Aguila
If you have to choose between Shilton, Seaman and Robinson there can be only one winner.
If England had qualified in '74 and '78 he would have gone to five World Cups.
Yes, but he must be part responsible for us not qualifying. Either because he lot in goals during qualifying or was not deemed good enough to get the nod over Clemence or some other keeper.
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Old 06-07-2006, 03:55 PM
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Interesting thread Elwiss, (BTW, you've actually got 4 of the current lot ). The glaring omission from the submittals so far, is Kevin Keegan. Forget about his management shennanigans, he was European player of the year twice, and very respected and feared by the Brazilians (I think it was Junior who said Keegan was the best player in the world, in about 1978 ? after a game in Rio).

Last edited by Celestial Empire; 06-07-2006 at 03:59 PM.
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  #29  
Old 06-07-2006, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Celestial Empire
Interesting thread Elwiss, (BTW, you've actually got 4 of the current lot ). The glaring omission from the submittals so far, is Kevin Keegan. Forget about his management shennanigans, he was European player of the year, and very respected and feared by the Brazilians (I think it was Junior who said Keegan was the best player in the world, in about 1978 ?)
You've not read my post about him peaking at a time when we didn't qualify for World Cup then?

In 1982 he was injured and past his very best.
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  #30  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:01 PM
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I'm with you and he's on my bench, but he never got a chance to prove it at the World Cup, bar those ten minutes in 82. Keegan won European Player of the Year twice, I think.

spf - Platt wasn't a holding midfielder; more your runner.
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  #31  
Old 06-07-2006, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GeeTee
You've not read my post about him peaking at a time when we didn't qualify for World Cup then?

In 1982 he was injured and past his very best.
No, I had overlooked that, sorry .
Keegan has a fair claim to be our best player of all time.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:10 PM
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I guess I can't really have Brooking, either.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:11 PM
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Someone will mention Tony Currie any minute.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
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Yes, but he must be part responsible for us not qualifying. Either because he lot in goals during qualifying or was not deemed good enough to get the nod over Clemence or some other keeper.
I think it was Greenwood who alternated them, though I'm not sure he took that all the way to the '82 World Cup - my memory is that he didn't, but I was still in short trousers, then.
Thinking about it, David Lacy was probably on a Greenwood suck-up when he made that preposterous claim about Mick Mills' captaincy.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp
I'm with you and he's on my bench, but he never got a chance to prove it at the World Cup, bar those ten minutes in 82. Keegan won European Player of the Year twice, I think.

spf - Platt wasn't a holding midfielder; more your runner.
Ok, afor dos but I cannot think of a better partner for Gascoigne, who, as far I am concerned, is the best player England has had at any World Cup, any time. Unlike that muppet Sven, I believe one must play one's best players to their strengths; see Gerrard and Rooney, who would walk into any Engalnd side, had they been allowed to play properly in the World Cup.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:20 PM
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It's absurd, nay, pretentious, not to have Robson in the team, I've decided. He'll be my captain, taking Brooking's place.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:23 PM
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Injured and thus ineffective in 1986, though.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:29 PM
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'82 vintage.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:34 PM
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Its no coincidence that England performed a lot better in World Cups when Robson was injured; he was prehaps the most overrated player (after Roberto Carlos) to play in a World Cup.
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Old 06-07-2006, 04:50 PM
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[B]I think it was Greenwood who alternated them, though I'm not sure he took that all the way to the '82 World Cup - my memory is that he didn't, but I was still in short trousers, then.
Your memory is correct. Don Revie had kept Ray Clemence as his first choice when available. When he took over, Ron Greenwood kept Clemence for his first 2 games (the final qualifiers of the unsuccessful 78 WC campaign) and then followed a bizarre policy of alternating the keepers.

I remembered it as being strictly Shilton-Clemence but in the 4 years between the 78 & 82 World Cups, Clemence started half the matches with Joe Corrigan and Shilton playing almost as often as each other in the others. Clemence seemed to be picked for most of the Qualifiers although come the Euro Championships in Italy in 1980, Shilton played the vital 2nd match agaionst the hosts in Rome with Clemence playing the 1st and 3rd games. I clearly remember it being reported at the time as being because it was Shilton's "turn" which seems crazy looking back.

This carried on until the WC82 Finals in Spain. I don't know whether Clemence was injured but Shilton started every match of that tournament. When Bobby Robson took over the following season, the rotation policy was stopped and Shilton was established as first choice.
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