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  #21  
Old 16-10-2007, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
ive been at lower division games where standing is still present. i often watch peterborough at london road, and even there, where the crowds are not massive, people are often crushed when goals are scored, penalties being taken or fights occur on the pitch. when they played newcastle a few years back int he fa cup, it was a close game and the fans were rammed in, when david farrell scored there were grown men on the floor being thrown about, as well as children. imagine this in a really big game with thousands more fans, its in a fans nature to celebrate n people inevitably push forward.

we cant go excluding children from these areas can we, they are after all the 'future' fans of the club.the only way to manage the situation would be to reduce crowds massively thus voiding them of atmosphere anyway. its not safe for children and its hard to get good views of the pitch alot of the time.

plus its far too easy for away fans to congregate in standing areas and cause trouble. how do you suppose that is managed?

seating should stay

i may be alone on this but i stand by it, if your pardon the pun

selhurst would feel even more empty if standing areas were introduced anyway!!
Except more children went to football in the olden days, there was less segregation so more potential for infilitration of home ends and very few of the problems you envisage happening, happened.


I don't believe terraces will ever come back, but if it is for the reasons you give it will be a smokescreen.
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  #22  
Old 16-10-2007, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
ive been at lower division games where standing is still present. i often watch peterborough at london road, and even there, where the crowds are not massive, people are often crushed when goals are scored, penalties being taken or fights occur on the pitch. when they played newcastle a few years back int he fa cup, it was a close game and the fans were rammed in, when david farrell scored there were grown men on the floor being thrown about, as well as children. imagine this in a really big game with thousands more fans, its in a fans nature to celebrate n people inevitably push forward.

we cant go excluding children from these areas can we, they are after all the 'future' fans of the club.the only way to manage the situation would be to reduce crowds massively thus voiding them of atmosphere anyway. its not safe for children and its hard to get good views of the pitch alot of the time.

plus its far too easy for away fans to congregate in standing areas and cause trouble. how do you suppose that is managed?

seating should stay

i may be alone on this but i stand by it, if your pardon the pun

selhurst would feel even more empty if standing areas were introduced anyway!!
Oh please dont insult my intelligenece with safety nonsense

The remaining terraces in our leagues are so strictly managed in terms of numbers. Crowd surges are virtually nonexistant and you can quite easily stand somewhere where the crowd is more sedate if you wish.

This is not the point however. May I reiterate AGAIN that we are looking for safe standing areas that will be quite different from the terrace of old . Crowd surges will not be possible. Jesus christ, no wonder this is such a hard thing to change, people's minds are stuck in the 70's and 80's.

What is so bad about someone wishing to stand and watch a game of football? A whole generation has been brainwashed by the Health and Safety culture that we are now drowning in.
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  #23  
Old 16-10-2007, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
its not safe for children and its hard to get good views of the pitch alot of the time.
On the point of kids not having a good view, I disagree. When I used to go with my old man, I used to find a tunnel of vision where I could see both goals, even if this did require a bit of maneuvering. The same for my kids when I first got them standing on the Holmesdale. When the seats came in, they could see less of the important stuff. Every time the ball reached the edge of the area, everyone stood up. My kids not only hadto stand up, but stand up on the seat to be able to see. By the time they had managed to do this, the action had passed.
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  #24  
Old 16-10-2007, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord Flange
Oh please dont insult my intelligenece with safety nonsense

The remaining terraces in our leagues are so strictly managed in terms of numbers. Crowd surges are virtually nonexistant and you can quite easily stand somewhere where the crowd is more sedate if you wish.

This is not the point however. May I reiterate AGAIN that we are looking for safe standing areas that will be quite different from the terrace of old . Crowd surges will not be possible. Jesus christ, no wonder this is such a hard thing to change, people's minds are stuck in the 70's and 80's.

What is so bad about someone wishing to stand and watch a game of football? A whole generation has been brainwashed by the Health and Safety culture that we are now drowning in.
quite funny that you spelt intelligence wrong, never mind, we all make mistakes. you keep saying about these 'safe standing areas', please explain in detail how they would be made safe. i am open to common sense ideas and thoughtful debate.

and that culture we are drowning is aimed at preventing innoncent people getting killed like those that lost there lives at heysel, and hillsborough. these incidents were down to the masses acting collectively, not poor policing, in my opinion. if i believed it to be safe for all i would be all for standing
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  #25  
Old 16-10-2007, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CHE
Except more children went to football in the olden days, there was less segregation so more potential for infilitration of home ends and very few of the problems you envisage happening, happened.


I don't believe terraces will ever come back, but if it is for the reasons you give it will be a smokescreen.
millwall fans could easily sell out there area and then get tickets in the holmesdale road end by walking into the box office and asking for a ticket. how do you monitor that? at least if there seated theyre less likely to be able to congregate on the terraces and their movement is restricted, there is probably a simple slotuion to this problem i just cant think of it
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  #26  
Old 16-10-2007, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
quite funny that you spelt intelligence wrong, never mind, we all make mistakes. you keep saying about these 'safe standing areas', please explain in detail how they would be made safe. i am open to common sense ideas and thoughtful debate.

and that culture we are drowning is aimed at preventing innoncent people getting killed like those that lost there lives at heysel, and hillsborough. these incidents were down to the masses acting collectively, not poor policing, in my opinion. if i believed it to be safe for all i would be all for standing
With all due respect I'm not going to argue with someone who clearly doesnt know what he is talking about. It's tiring and non productive
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  #27  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:04 AM
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No sorry.
You can't just back out of a conversation because your getting tired.
Answer the question.
What is 'safe standing'?
You brought the subject on here, please tell us what you are talking about.
What makes the terrace 'safe'?
i'd like to know too because I'm also ignorant.
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  #28  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:05 AM
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It seems a nonsense to me that there is no provision for football fans who want to stand up. Also if all the criticism of standing stadia had actually manifested itself when standing was an option then it is a wonder attending football matches ever got popular at all. Children used to go to matches when it was standing before why wouldn't they if it was re-introduced? I always found a view in the Arthur Wait Enclosure or later on the Holmesdale and I am short, it may not have been of all the pitch all the time but it was good enough and highly enjoyable. Maybe what was so appealling was the atmosphere that drew me to games, something that is palpably missing now.
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  #29  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:07 AM
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i feel ive been quite fair and asked for your opinion, and asked for you to debate my ideas and thoughts, instead you choose just to insult. its quite sad that you cant accept people have differing opinons and that neither way is neccesarily the right way, but a combination of both may be.i have shown my willingness to be open minded but you being the lord of flange cant manage that, i suggest you are the one who does not know what he is talking about whne it comes to critical thinking. you still never said how you would make the standing areas safe?
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  #30  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by strawberry mivi
No sorry.
You can't just back out of a conversation because your getting tired.
Answer the question.
What is 'safe standing'?
You brought the subject on here, please tell us what you are talking about.
What makes the terrace 'safe'?
i'd like to know too because I'm also ignorant.
For f*cks sake I have answered the question over and over

Read the thread
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  #31  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Igor Iconic
Children used to go to matches when it was standing before why wouldn't they if it was re-introduced?
people used to to lots of things they don't anymore, environments change. crowd trouble occured when people stood and occurs less now, admittedly aided by cctv. crowd problems related to standing and safety coincided in time with mass football related violence, and is it not true that attendances at this time fell sharply and that the introduction of seating saw rises in attendances?
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  #32  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:15 AM
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how about cheap tickets, we know weve been paying over the odds for a few years now. lets fill the place and get some atmosphere back. that may do the trick!!
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  #33  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
i feel ive been quite fair and asked for your opinion, and asked for you to debate my ideas and thoughts, instead you choose just to insult. its quite sad that you cant accept people have differing opinons and that neither way is neccesarily the right way, but a combination of both may be.i have shown my willingness to be open minded but you being the lord of flange cant manage that, i suggest you are the one who does not know what he is talking about whne it comes to critical thinking. you still never said how you would make the standing areas safe?
Foxinthebox it all depends on how you 'define' safe. The safeguards in place immediately after Hillsborough, i.e the reduction in terrace capacities and the removal of perimeter fencing made the majority of old terraces safe IMO. It was a knee jerk reaction to demolish every stand in Britain that held standing spectators

What I meant by stating that you did not know what you were talking about was not actually meant as an insult. I simply dont belive from your postings that you have enough knowledge of the Hillsborough Disaster or even the management of 20th century terraces to make a valid arguement.

I stood at Selhurst for nearly 20 years without a hint of danger and yet you are trying to imply that a new form of standing accomodation- one that would have no doubt numerous restrictions and modern safety practices attached to it- is still going to be unsafe

It just doesnt add up. Both disasters that you have quoted were caused by decrepid stadiums and piss poor policing. It was never about standing as Lord Taylor quite rightly pointed out in his post Hillsborough report.

All seater satiums were a cure for all the ills of the hooligan infested 70's and 80's . They were neccessary to a point, but football has changed immensly in the last 20 years and to ignore over 90 per cent ( the figure that yearly call for the return of standing in FSF polls- unprompted I may add) of your customers is just plain wrong.
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  #34  
Old 16-10-2007, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
people used to to lots of things they don't anymore, environments change. crowd trouble occured when people stood and occurs less now, admittedly aided by cctv. crowd problems related to standing and safety coincided in time with mass football related violence, and is it not true that attendances at this time fell sharply and that the introduction of seating saw rises in attendances?
Crowd disturbances inside football grounds were on the decline considerably post Hillsborough, in stadiums that were still made up mainly of terracing

A change in fan culture after Hillsborough, plus CCTV (as you mentioned) and better policing were the reasons for this, nothing to do with terracing

The biggest crowd disturbane at Selhurst V Birmingham city started in the upper tier Arthur seats in 1989.
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Old 16-10-2007, 10:35 AM
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I take your point that people change as does the demographics of football fans. Attendances fluctuate for lots of different reasons most of them economic, i'd suggest, but I serious doubt that seating has had that much of an effect or any perceived safety hazard from a lack of seating. Also on the Hysel and Hillsborough theory, for what its worth, I'd say it was down to poor policing and facilities - the theory that it could be down to the masses acting collectively would surely have resulted in many more similar disasters all over the globe.

These links give a bit detail on attendances (To view the link you have to Register or Login To view the link you have to Register or Login) and they show the gradual rise in attendances throughout the last 40 years but I am not sure this is down to seating arrangements anymore than other aspects of improved stadiums like roofs. The figures for the Premiership could just as easily be down to top teams selling-out week in week out and moving to bigger stadiums or extending grounds to accomodate.

I don't offer any definitive answers to the seating debate just think there should be the provision for those to stand who want to.
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Old 16-10-2007, 10:37 AM
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some valid point, but they way it has been suggested standing is reintroduced, i.e.e by allowing one to stand in front of an allocated seat happens at the moment, and does nothing for the atnospher, what makes you think a small pocket of this in a far area of the ground would improve atmosphere. i thinkw e need to fill the ground first and foremost. personally disagree that hillsborough was piss poor policing. people were getting crushed outside the ground on the barriers, a policeman made a snap decision to open the gates to prevent people from being killed outside the ground. the game was more than adequately policed for those who were supposed to be there. if thousands of moronic liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets in the first place then that polciemand would never have had to open the gates would he. oh, its so easy to blame the police. lets look at ourselves shall we. liverpool fans were up to their old tricks in athens this year again, thousands turned up without tickets and forced there way in the ground, ripping up fences as they went, causing injuires to young and old alike. this is the type of stupidity im on about and while it may be a minority these idiots would congregate in the standing areas and casue trouble, and dont pretend you think otherwise.
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Old 16-10-2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Igor Iconic
I take your point that people change as does the demographics of football fans. Attendances fluctuate for lots of different reasons most of them economic, i'd suggest, but I serious doubt that seating has had that much of an effect or any perceived safety hazard from a lack of seating. Also on the Hysel and Hillsborough theory, for what its worth, I'd say it was down to poor policing and facilities - the theory that it could be down to the masses acting collectively would surely have resulted in many more similar disasters all over the globe.

These links give a bit detail on attendances (To view the link you have to Register or Login To view the link you have to Register or Login) and they show the gradual rise in attendances throughout the last 40 years but I am not sure this is down to seating arrangements anymore than other aspects of improved stadiums like roofs. The figures for the Premiership could just as easily be down to top teams selling-out week in week out and moving to bigger stadiums or extending grounds to accomodate.

I don't offer any definitive answers to the seating debate just think there should be the provision for those to stand who want to.
thank you for a sensible response. i also feel that if a safe method of standing could be provided then there is no problem, i just am unsure as to whether it could be, and this would not be the authorties or the clubs fault but those determined to ruin it, which unfortuantley there are always going to be. id love to stand and watch palace but i cant see it happening with a guarantee of safety. thanks for thoughtful the response though
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Old 16-10-2007, 10:41 AM
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presuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-finalpresuming ed is haring down the right flank like Pemberton in the 1990 semi-final
I'd like to see it come back if only on the basis that it would make the "sit down, shut up" chant redundant.
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Old 16-10-2007, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
some valid point, but they way it has been suggested standing is reintroduced, i.e.e by allowing one to stand in front of an allocated seat happens at the moment, and does nothing for the atnospher, what makes you think a small pocket of this in a far area of the ground would improve atmosphere. i thinkw e need to fill the ground first and foremost. personally disagree that hillsborough was piss poor policing. people were getting crushed outside the ground on the barriers, a policeman made a snap decision to open the gates to prevent people from being killed outside the ground. the game was more than adequately policed for those who were supposed to be there. if thousands of moronic liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets in the first place then that polciemand would never have had to open the gates would he. oh, its so easy to blame the police. lets look at ourselves shall we. liverpool fans were up to their old tricks in athens this year again, thousands turned up without tickets and forced there way in the ground, ripping up fences as they went, causing injuires to young and old alike. this is the type of stupidity im on about and while it may be a minority these idiots would congregate in the standing areas and casue trouble, and dont pretend you think otherwise.
Ask youself why people were getting crushed outside the ground ?

piss poor policing with no proper match day stadium saftey plan to follow (as there had been in previous years )
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Old 16-10-2007, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxinthebox
some valid point, but they way it has been suggested standing is reintroduced, i.e.e by allowing one to stand in front of an allocated seat happens at the moment, and does nothing for the atnospher, what makes you think a small pocket of this in a far area of the ground would improve atmosphere. i thinkw e need to fill the ground first and foremost. personally disagree that hillsborough was piss poor policing. people were getting crushed outside the ground on the barriers, a policeman made a snap decision to open the gates to prevent people from being killed outside the ground. the game was more than adequately policed for those who were supposed to be there. if thousands of moronic liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets in the first place then that polciemand would never have had to open the gates would he. oh, its so easy to blame the police. lets look at ourselves shall we. liverpool fans were up to their old tricks in athens this year again, thousands turned up without tickets and forced there way in the ground, ripping up fences as they went, causing injuires to young and old alike. this is the type of stupidity im on about and while it may be a minority these idiots would congregate in the standing areas and casue trouble, and dont pretend you think otherwise.
I've just read your post again and am horrified by its ignorance

And you wonder why I didnt want to argue with you ?
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