A new training ground for CPFC

[rajcroydon]

In response to PaulT20's comments, I hope the following will be useful. In addition, I am hoping to post (on the Trust's new website) footage of my presentation to Trust members in February, where the project was first discussed at a special meeting attended by 200 members.

Firstly, I want to make it absolutely clear that neither the Trust nor the Club chose Ashburton Playing Fields as a site - it was one that was suggested to us by the local authority. It happens to be the best site.

In relation to the points raised by PaulT20:

"When I moved here about 7 years ago, there was some scorch damage at one of the doors to the changing rooms, I've not noticed any other damage since then. They most definitely have not been burnt down 3 times in the last few years."

The Trust has been advised by the council that there has been significant vandalism this year (2011)

"However, I think the most outlandish claim that needs to be nailed is contrary to Raj's claim that no football is played there. Every Sunday morning during the Junior League football season there are several games of football played there. That’s every Sunday, including last Sunday when it looked like all 6-7 pitches were in use, I estimate there was approx 4-500 people on the playing fields then."

Once again, the Trust was advised that no rental income has been charged this year and that no organised football has taken place here in 2010 / 2011. This was advised to the Trust's secretary during discussions about an option to lease the land from the council. Any football being played on the site currently is not - according to the Council (not the Trust) - booked and paid for.


"To answer a question that several people have asked, why would we not want the playing fields developed. This is quite amusing, its a park, its a really nice park, its the only park within a 30 minute walk. Are you guys honestly saying you would want your local park tarmaced over and fenced off!!! Think about it!! Its were the local kids play, its were people walk their dogs, its were teenagers sit around, it honestly is a lovely place to go."


There is Ashburton Park which is about 10 mins max walk away from the site. More about the amount of space the training ground would take below.


"Crime!! about 2-3 years ago, 2 cars were burnt out on the fields a couple of days apart, thats it, every one rang the council they were removed, the recent police report to the residents committee was the only crimes around there were breakins to cars (people park on the road in front of the park and use arena tram) its minor, if you concrete over the park, it won't stop that sort of crime. Also the cliams of anti-social behaviour, I often walk across the park in the dark, its actually quite pleasant, TBH, its fairly difficult to be anti-social in a big empty field!!!"

The Trust's position is once again based on what we have been advised by local people, including local politicians, who suggested that anti-social behaviour is a significant issue in the playing fields. The references to drugs that I've made have been based on what I've heard from local representatives.

"Only 50 houses object! really can the Trust qualify that figure, it appears strange that our local MP blogged shortly after the 'public consultation' at the residents association

"However there was strong opposition to developing any of the site given the lack of green space in the area and certainly a unanimous feeling that what was proposed involved taking too much - and the best bits - of the site."


Firstly, it was not a public meeting, but a meeting organised by a residents' association, MORA, at the request of residents who heard about the proposals in the press and were opposed to them. The residents on the other side of the fields, including a huge estate near the school / academy, and opposite the fields, have not had an opportunity to input into the scheme. The Trust were aiming to hold a consultation meeting there, but aborted when the council suspended negotiations with the Trust on the back of the opposition from MORA members.

My understanding was that the objections - certainly the people who have spoken to the Trust in opposition to the proposals - have come from people whose properties directly adjoin the part of the playing fields which would border the training ground. Our initial consultation was with these households, so it is no surprise that the majority of these would oppose. What we haven't done is widen the consultation to households on the other side of the playing fields. The groups I have spoken to (the Academy and some youth workers) have expressed support.

I understand that local representatives have to voice concerns of their constituents, as Gavin is doing. When I was a local councillor, I too often supported local residents who lobbied me against planning proposals. However, to suggest that there is unanimous opposition to the scheme is wrong. In planning matters, it is always the norm, when a proposal first gets noticed, for people opposed to it to galvanise support. Very few people pro-actively campaign for proposals in planning. If you don't have an opinion, or are keen on the proposals, then you are likely to just wait and see what happens. It's the "passive majority" syndrome, where most people do not take an active role in their neighbourhoods unless they develop strong views on something.


"Raj claimed they wanted 30% of the site. He put the architects plan on the big screen, it was immediately pointed out that it wasn't 30% it was virtually all of our park, leaving just a narrow passage down the righthandside (which incidently is the bit that floods most in winter - forgot to mention we're on a flood plane and the park is where a lot of it drains)

Raj said, don't worry its only an 'artists impression'"


"The next obvious question came, at the moment the 6 pitches take up most of the park, how can you fit, a carpark, offices and 6 pitches on just 30% of the park?"

At the residents' association meeting, it was our architects who advised that about 30 % of the site at Ashburton would be taken up - this reflects the discussions the Trust were having with the local authority about the lease option, should the scheme proceed.

"unfortunately, the Trust has spanked £10,000 - £15,000 on this adventure, it's not going to happen, so the Trust is left trying to tell you guys that its all someone else's fault."

On this point, it is clear to anyone who is embarking on such a scheme that there will be a level of expenditure to bring proposals up to planning, unless a site which does not require planning permission is identified and purchased. At the Trust special meeting in February, it was made clear that there were significant planning hurdles to overcome regardless of the site chosen. However, our architects were clearly instructed to carry out work that could be lifted from one site and used on another, so, unless we were to move to a site which already has a building, this work will not go to waste.

Once again, I have to stress that the sites identified (Ashburton and Purley Way playing fields) were done so, in good faith, by Croydon Council.

The Trust membership (200 present and a further 200 proxy votes for the chairman) endorsed the proposals incorporated into a motion which included a clear reference to expenditure in working up the scheme.

As previously mentioned on the BBS and on the Trust website, Phil Alexander, the Club CEO, Alan Palmer (the Trust chairman) and I are meeting with officials at Croydon Council to discuss where we are with the Training Ground and site options.

The Council - both at CEO level and politician level - have been very supportive to both the Club and Trust. Clearly they have to take a stance on the site we prefer based on what residents are saying. I very much hope that we have the opportunity to develop Ashburton further. However, if it is not going to happen there, then we move on. I personally am convinced that wherever we site the new training ground, there are huge community benefits that can be returned by ourselves, the Club and others associated with CPFC, including the Foundation and Study Support Centre.

I will provide an update to Trust members and the wider fan base after Thursday's meeting.

I'm also going to propose being on the BBS on Tuesday 11th October from 8.00 pm for about an hour where I can take questions / comments etc.

We all want our club to succeed, and a new training ground is a key part of this. The Club owners want this to be a fan initiative, to safeguard a vital asset in the decades ahead.

I know that there have been lots of questions on another thread - some of which I have felt unable to comment upon. Trust Board members have dealt with these. My focus in the coming weeks is to push ahead with the initiative - whether it is at Ashburton, Purley Way, SW16 or somewhere else. I very much hope that we can move forward with a common purpose.

[colinT]

My Football team, Shirwood Eagles u15 play our home games on said playing fields and have done so for last 2 years, we pay council ( via league ) about £400 a year.

[rajcroydon]

Originally Posted by colinT

My Football team, Shirwood Eagles u15 play our home games on said playing fields and have done so for last 2 years, we pay council ( via league ) about £400 a year.

Thanks for this Colin - this is certainly not what we were told a couple of months ago.

We were advised that, as the changing facilities were not in use, no lets had taken place in the past year.

However, what we were clearly aware of was that there would need to be some public pitches, the idea being that the Club would maintain them for local use - whether this would be "shared pitches" which the club use during the week and other teams use at weekend was to be discussed.

[Barbara4003]

Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to wander over there and see if any teams are playing on the pitches?

[Always an Eagle]

Originally Posted by Barbara4003

Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to wander over there and see if any teams are playing on the pitches?

Sounds like they are but as they aren't paying the council for it, as far as the council are concerned its irrelevant.

[Justin]

10 seconds on google appear to show me that Croydon Juniors have matches booked on it every Sunday, including this week at 10.30am and midday.

I dont have a clue if anyone else uses it but it would appear they do as Colin's team appears to be another club as well. Of course these may not be Council authorised but it does show they are still used by local clubs.

[rajcroydon]

It may well be that some teams are playing there without paying. Or it may be that different parts of the council aren't updating their records / talking to eachother - it does happen.

However, I hope that everyone agrees that wherever we have a new training ground, it needs to involve the local community, and if we end up displacing teams, we need to ensure that they have suitable alternative pitches to play on, ideally near the training ground / possibly next to any enclosed area.

Anyone who walks across Ashburton Playing Fields (I last did so a couple of months ago) will agree that it is poorly kept. The plan will be that, whereever the training ground ends up going, if there is adjacent green space, the Trust / Club will maintain it for public use. If this space is public pitches, then they will certainly be better looked after by the excellent groundsman at the Club!

[Always an Eagle]

Originally Posted by PaulT20

As a local resident, I've posted some rebuttals to the crazy things that CPST have being saying about the Ashburton playing fields (as a site for the new training ground)

My question to CPFC2010 is why they are letting themselves be damage through association with the CPST.

My answers are on the 'Appointment of Project Manager thread'

http://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthrea...highlight=cpst

Paul, why are you criticising the Trust when obviously they are going on what the council have been saying?

Just out of interest
* are you opposed to anything happening to that land?
* what team do you support?
* have you taken your points to the council & what did they say?

[PaulT20]

"Anyone who walks across Ashburton Playing Fields (I last did so a couple of months ago) will agree that it is poorly kept"

Raj it's a big field, how can it be poorly kept?

The goalposts are up, the pitches are marked out, the grass is cut.

What else do you expect?

What I'll do is pop down after my dinner and take photos, I'll stick them on flickr with a link and we'll see what people think

[colinT]

We were at home last sunday and every pitch was in use. 5 senior pitches and two junior pitches. All the "league" teams pay for their pitches, often via Tandridge league,

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Always an Eagle

Paul, why are you criticising the Trust when obviously they are going on what the council have been saying?

To be fair the Council are trying to sell something and the club/Trust trying to buy something. Would you ever rely on what a seller was telling you when buying something like a house?

I would have thought that standard due diligence at a very early stage would be to check out the all the information is correct, as I am sure it is.

[Billy Rhino]

Originally Posted by colinT

My Football team, Shirwood Eagles u15 play our home games on said playing fields and have done so for last 2 years, we pay council ( via league ) about £400 a year.

^^^ well it appears they do pay the council. Something doesn't tie up here, surely this is easy to resolve with a quick phone call??

[colinT]

in 2010 we paid £307 for pitch hire ( discounted rate as changing rooms were not available )

[rajcroydon]

Clearly it is the case that the pitches are used, and payments are being made.

The Trust can only deal with things as laid out in discussions we have had.

We haven't got to the due diligence process yet - we were just in initial option discussions with the Council, through a pro-bono lawyer (at no cost to the Trust).

The statements the Trust and I have made about the official usage were in good faith.

I'm happy to be corrected on this.

[Barbara4003]

I believe the Trust have acted in good faith. And it doesn't surprise me in the least that Croydon Council have got their facts wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time.

[rajcroydon]

I'm logging off now - I'll check back here later. All information greatly appreciated, but it might be worth holding back until after the meeting tomorrow - it may be that Ashburton Playing Fields is no longer viable.

[cockles]

Originally Posted by rajcroydon

"The next obvious question came, at the moment the 6 pitches take up most of the park, how can you fit, a carpark, offices and 6 pitches on just 30% of the park?"

At the residents' association meeting, it was our architects who advised that about 30 % of the site at Ashburton would be taken up - this reflects the discussions the Trust were having with the local authority about the lease option, should the scheme proceed.

So - how many pitches are on the site now?

Plus, what approx % of the area do these pitches occupy?

(anyone who knows please answer)

[Vince Hilaire's Afro]

Originally Posted by Barbara4003

Maybe it would be a good idea for someone to wander over there and see if any teams are playing on the pitches?

Not if you don't want your underpants set on fire or tread on a used syringe.

[AJ's right boot]

Raj, what is the problem with the current training ground?

[Billy Rhino]

Originally Posted by rajcroydon

I'm logging off now - I'll check back here later. All information greatly appreciated, but it might be worth holding back until after the meeting tomorrow - it may be that Ashburton Playing Fields is no longer viable.

If this is the case then I sincerely hope Purley Way isn't a serious option, as anyone who has ever played there would tell you what an awful place it is to play football (due to the slope and it being a wind-trap).

Have you got any concrete proof yet that it is possible to raise £4m? It seems an awful lot of money in these difficult financial times.