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  #21  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
I don't disagree with you on US housing, banks are trying to limit the supply of housing to try and get house prices to go up and the government doesn't do anything because it has a vested interest in house prices going up.

I have no issue with people going to a food bank to get food. Society looking after the poor through charity is how it should work, why does everything have to go through the state?
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  #22  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:13 PM
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I would live there
I dunno if I'd go that far , it's one of the most dangerous countries in the world in terms of homicide rates and other violent crime.
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  #23  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
I have no issue with people going to a food bank to get food. Society looking after the poor through charity is how it should work, why does everything have to go through the state?
Let's see.

1. Because charity is random, which is why so much US money goes to fund right wing universities, whilst the infant mortality rate in Harlem is higher than in the DR Congo and why so much UK money goes to blind donkeys and cats' homes, whilst kids go hungry.

2. Because the poor give a higher percentage of their income in charity than the rich.

3. Because a whole plethora of charities are wholly inefficient (the economies of scale in aid/wlefare are huge) compared to a single government.

There are other issues as well, for instance, why should a rich person have more say on what gets money than society as a whole? Receipt of charity is also undignified and the rich love the idea of charidee so they can pay less tax.

Current establishment thinking on charity, like so much current economic orthodoxy, is warped to the nth degree and it's very good to see that after 60 years of economic dogmatism, policy makers and students are starting to look at realities rather than stupid mathematical theories. When I was at uni 5 years ago, I could get 33% of my macroeconomics grade by proving a formula that shows monetary policy has not one single effect at all on an economy. What total bollocks that is.
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  #24  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:30 PM
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I dunno if I'd go that far , it's one of the most dangerous countries in the world in terms of homicide rates and other violent crime.
Croydon or Venezuela, I'm off
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  #25  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
I don't disagree with you on US housing, banks are trying to limit the supply of housing to try and get house prices to go up and the government doesn't do anything because it has a vested interest in house prices going up.

I have no issue with people going to a food bank to get food. Society looking after the poor through charity is how it should work, why does everything have to go through the state?
Roughly translates to "I'm a wealthy WANKER and should have no responsibility whatsoever to anyone who is worse off than me".
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  #26  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
Let's see.

1. Because charity is random, which is why so much US money goes to fund right wing universities, whilst the infant mortality rate in Harlem is higher than in the DR Congo and why so much UK money goes to blind donkeys and cats' homes, whilst kids go hungry.

2. Because the poor give a higher percentage of their income in charity than the rich.

3. Because a whole plethora of charities are wholly inefficient (the economies of scale in aid/wlefare are huge) compared to a single government.

There are other issues as well, for instance, why should a rich person have more say on what gets money than society as a whole? Receipt of charity is also undignified and the rich love the idea of charidee so they can pay less tax.
Deviating from the original thread a bit, but I agree with all of this.
I do get p/ssed off when people say they'd rather give to charity than pay tax, or that giving to charity means paying less tax.

What in god's name do they think tax pays for? Tax pays for a healthcare free for all users, including the poor and most needy. It pays for free education and schooling. It pays for social workers to try and protect the most innocent and vulnerable amongst us.
Do people actually think that paying tax for a social worker to help a vulnerable child is comparable to a donation to the RSPCA?
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  #27  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:49 PM
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"I'm a wealthy WANKER and should have no responsibility whatsoever to anyone who is worse off than me".
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  #28  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:49 PM
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People holding up Venezuela as a good example of somewhere to live obviously have never been there.
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  #29  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:50 PM
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er, no they haven't

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You think that's because of Chavez? They're most well endowed country on the planet in terms of oil and yet despite record oil prices, oil production is down nearly a third. Chavez and now Maduro have destoyed all industry and any reason to produce. The nationalized companies are completely falling apart and incapable of producing basic goods. Without oil they have no economy, the government has merely distributed some of the oil revenue to distract their citizens so the politicians and their friends can syphon off millions of dollars to US and Swiss bank accounts.
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  #30  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:52 PM
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Deviating from the original thread a bit, but I agree with all of this.
I do get p/ssed off when people say they'd rather give to charity than pay tax, or that giving to charity means paying less tax.

What in god's name do they think tax pays for? Tax pays for a healthcare free for all users, including the poor and most needy. It pays for free education and schooling. It pays for social workers to try and protect the most innocent and vulnerable amongst us.
Do people actually think that paying tax for a social worker to help a vulnerable child is comparable to a donation to the RSPCA?
The American definition of "freedom" is purely freedom from any kind of responsibility towards the rest of society. They're not free at all. They can be arrested for merely crossing the road and their government can put them to death if it wants to.

Those who say that they'd rather give to charity than pay tax strive for such a sick society.
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  #31  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:53 PM
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  #32  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:57 PM
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I think the OP makes a fair point for debate: there is a case study of a country which has followed a path of asset confiscation in the name of socialist idealism and equality and despite having one of the largest oil reserves, its citizens as a whole find itself worse off.

Seemed to break down into a slanging match ans abuse slinging pretty quickly after that.
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  #33  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
You think that's because of Chavez? They're most well endowed country on the planet in terms of oil and yet despite record oil prices, oil production is down nearly a third. Chavez and now Maduro have destoyed all industry and any reason to produce. The nationalized companies are completely falling apart and incapable of producing basic goods. Without oil they have no economy, the government has merely distributed some of the oil revenue to distract their citizens so the politicians and their friends can syphon off millions of dollars to US and Swiss bank accounts.
You said the people haven't benefitted. You were wrong. They have. A lot.
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  #34  
Old 24-12-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ExeterEagle View Post
I think the OP makes a fair point for debate: there is a case study of a country which has followed a path of asset confiscation in the name of socialist idealism and equality and despite having one of the largest oil reserves, its citizens as a whole find itself worse off.
This sentence is factually incorrect. The people are better off.
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  #35  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:07 PM
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This sentence is factually incorrect. The people are better off.
Latin America in general is more wealthy, not just Venezuela. Sadly the gap between rich and poor has also grown a lot bigger.

Just like the rest of the world really.
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  #36  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:08 PM
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This sentence is factually incorrect. The people are better off.
You sound like Alan Greenspan when he talks about globalisation.
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  #37  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:14 PM
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You said the people haven't benefitted. You were wrong. They have. A lot.
No, it depends on what you're using to evaluate it. I'll concede the Human Development has improved but it's solely due to oil, the rest of the economy has gone to sh*t. But how can you say they're better off when they don't even have toilet paper to wipe their ar*e and essentials like milk, rice food to eat is beyond me. Ultimately my argument is counterfactual, had Venezuela had a government that had a remote respect for property and private industry the people would be much better off.

How you can consider this some sort replicable economic model is beyond me.
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  #38  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:17 PM
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No, it depends on what you're using to evaluate it. I'll concede the Human Development has improved but it's solely due to oil, the rest of the economy has gone to sh*t. But how can you say they're better off when they don't even have toilet paper to wipe their ar*e and essentials like milk, rice food to eat is beyond me. Ultimately my argument is counterfactual, had Venezuela had a government that had a remote respect for property and private industry the people would be much better off.

How you can consider this some sort replicable economic model is beyond me.
I prefer a government to put a respect for people and communities above a respect for property and industry.
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  #39  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:18 PM
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Nothing is perfect by any means and you are taking random anecdotes and blowing them up as national facts. It's a crap form of analysis.

If HDI is rising, then that's good enough for me. It's just a shame the UK's oil wasn't put to such good use.
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Old 24-12-2013, 02:20 PM
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Latin America in general is more wealthy, not just Venezuela. Sadly the gap between rich and poor has also grown a lot bigger.

Just like the rest of the world really.
If you have back your argument up with false facts then you can't have a very good one.

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