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  #41  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
If you have back your argument up with false facts then you can't have a very good one.

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UN is of a different opinion to the world bank.
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  #42  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:32 PM
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Whatever they say, they both agree that the lot of the poor in Latin America has improved greatly under Left Wing Governments. Even the Economist acknowledges that.
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  #43  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
Whatever they say, they both agree that the lot of the poor in Latin America has improved greatly under Left Wing Governments. Even the Economist acknowledges that.
Yep, but the poor don't matter when it's the rich getting poorer.
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  #44  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
Whatever they say, they both agree that the lot of the poor in Latin America has improved greatly under Left Wing Governments. Even the Economist acknowledges that.
Where did I disagree with that?
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  #45  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:35 PM
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Where did I disagree with that?
So if the poor have got better off and so have the rich, what's your problem?

Anyway, its the UN that does HDI, so it would seem even that fact of yours is worong too.
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  #46  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
No, it isn't.

It's most evil mistake was on emancipation, not giving the blacks any land. That is where power lies in any country and, just as in South Africa, they were left with the rump.
Really?!

So if the USA isn't a democracy what is it? A dictatorship?

I assume that you believe that Barack Obama is a dictator then?
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  #47  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:38 PM
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So if the poor have got better off and so have the rich, what's your problem?

Anyway, its the UN that does HDI, so it would seem even that fact of yours is worong too.
My problem with it is that I would expect a socialist government to ensure the increase in wealth was distributed more equally.
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  #48  
Old 24-12-2013, 02:41 PM
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People holding up Venezuela as a good example of somewhere to live obviously have never been there.
Great post.
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  #49  
Old 24-12-2013, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
Whatever they say, they both agree that the lot of the poor in Latin America has improved greatly under Left Wing Governments. Even the Economist acknowledges that.
Even countries with the most despotic governments have achieved some improvement in welfare for their citizens over the last decade. Compare Chile to Venezuela, it's not even a contest as to which country has made more economic and social progress.
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  #50  
Old 24-12-2013, 04:07 PM
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Oh come on. I have also read this article from the neo-liberal, free market American supporting Economist. It is far from a balanced report and reflects its continous attack on Venezuelas' attempt to create a fairer alternative society. America as you would expect is also doing its utmost to destabilise this democratically elected government who like many in South America are trying to free themselves from the tyranny of the imperialist USA.
Here is a simple question radiomike AKA Karl (as in Marx )Have you been there ? because I have and it is without doubt the most f**ked up nation in South America.
What is with you left wingers why is everything wrong on the free world?
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  #51  
Old 24-12-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
Let's see.

1. Because charity is random, which is why so much US money goes to fund right wing universities, whilst the infant mortality rate in Harlem is higher than in the DR Congo and why so much UK money goes to blind donkeys and cats' homes, whilst kids go hungry.

2. Because the poor give a higher percentage of their income in charity than the rich.

3. Because a whole plethora of charities are wholly inefficient (the economies of scale in aid/wlefare are huge) compared to a single government.

There are other issues as well, for instance, why should a rich person have more say on what gets money than society as a whole? Receipt of charity is also undignified and the rich love the idea of charidee so they can pay less tax.

Current establishment thinking on charity, like so much current economic orthodoxy, is warped to the nth degree and it's very good to see that after 60 years of economic dogmatism, policy makers and students are starting to look at realities rather than stupid mathematical theories. When I was at uni 5 years ago, I could get 33% of my macroeconomics grade by proving a formula that shows monetary policy has not one single effect at all on an economy. What total bollocks that is.
While I agree with sentiment here, not sure where you're getting your facts from. From these two links it appears that Harlem has an infant mortality rate of 8.5/1000 while DR Congo has an IMR of 74.87/1000.

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  #52  
Old 24-12-2013, 04:47 PM
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  #53  
Old 24-12-2013, 04:52 PM
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South and Central America have had 500 years of being ****ed over, mainly by Spain and the US. In recent history it's only been in the last 20 years that they have been able to operate without the CIA overthrowing anyone they considered communist/too socialist and placing a military junta in charge who have together murdered millions. Central and South America have loads of problems but in general these problems are less serious than they have been at anytime in their histories and they are on a general upward curve.
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  #54  
Old 24-12-2013, 05:11 PM
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Doesn't Venezuela have the largest oil deposits on the planet? You wouldn't think so given power blackouts, crime and corruption.
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  #55  
Old 24-12-2013, 06:24 PM
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I'm with stinger on this one.

You can't be taken seriously if you think Vnezuala is doing fine because it sticks two fingers up to the USA. That's all bollox anyway; despite all the Chavez rhetoric, where do you think it sells it's oil.

Venezuala is a model of how to have a reall good thing going, and how to feck it up completely. Mostly one populist policy after another to keep the left in power. Chavez, and his puppet replacement govern(ed) in military fatigues FFS, WTF is that all about - homage to the 60's and 70's. The country seems to have election of one sort or another every year. Any kind of protest, and the ruling party wants referendums to cement another almost totalitarian period in office. After every vote the opposition say they have been cheated and the votes have been fixed.

While I would like to visit one day, it has a dreadful reputation of being the most dangerous country in South America by far.

And that is not even looking at the economic crisis. With it's oil it should be an economic player in South America. It's a mess.

But we can overlook all that because Chavez used to say a funny against The USA once in a while.

Let's have a look at extreme socialist regimes (or at least so-called peoples parties) in South America and see if they cut the mustard and deliver what they promises to people.

Venezuala - fecked
Bolivia - fecked
Argentina - fecked

What do they have in common? Dodgy political regimes, playing the workers (Indian) card, and blaming others for their internal problems. You could probably add Cuba to that - but at least they are starting too see sense.

I'm all for decent socialist policies (I am a great supporter of Bachelet in Chile), but in capable hands. Change that benefits people has to come over time, not revolution. Whether that will work in practice will remain to be seen. Chile, Peru and Colombia is where it is at.
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  #56  
Old 24-12-2013, 08:10 PM
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So excuse the interruption but... what exactly is the point of this thread?
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  #57  
Old 24-12-2013, 08:23 PM
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So excuse the interruption but... what exactly is the point of this thread?
PULIS OUT!
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  #58  
Old 24-12-2013, 09:08 PM
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So excuse the interruption but... what exactly is the point of this thread?
A number of threads on this forum that touch on politics nearly all lead to some people proclaiming how we'd all be so much better off if we'd revert to some left-wing socialist system because our capitalist system is so unjust and unfair. The point of the thread was to illustrate how the left-wing policies of Venezuelan government are working out and perhaps people might see sense.
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Old 24-12-2013, 09:34 PM
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A number of threads on this forum that touch on politics nearly all lead to some people proclaiming how we'd all be so much better off if we'd revert to some left-wing socialist system because our capitalist system is so unjust and unfair. The point of the thread was to illustrate how the left-wing policies of Venezuelan government are working out and perhaps people might see sense.
Maybe.

But when you made the silly comparison to Miliband's rather modest proposals in your opening post, I think most people saw where you were going, yawned and dug into the Quality Street.
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Old 24-12-2013, 09:38 PM
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Has anyone in the history of the Labour Party, the BBS or the far left ever upheld Venezuela as the world's most wonderous place full of freedom, equality and heavenly perks???

Just seems so random

Pol Pot was a despot, therefore David Cameron is a twat. Who knew???
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