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  #81  
Old 26-12-2013, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by west country boy View Post
You are a troll bellend and I hope you get bummed up from off of TheJudge.
Is calling some one a 'troll' the new Godwin's Law?
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  #82  
Old 26-12-2013, 04:53 AM
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No it isn't, c~nto.
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  #83  
Old 26-12-2013, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
Let's see.

1. Because charity is random, which is why so much US money goes to fund right wing universities, whilst the infant mortality rate in Harlem is higher than in the DR Congo and why so much UK money goes to blind donkeys and cats' homes, whilst kids go hungry..
Totally agree with your post about charidee - it's utter bollocks (apart from giving rich, bored people a good excuse to go parachuting, cycle around France a bit or whatever). But this fact above is certainly wrong, US IMR are high for a developed economy and the rate among African Americans are over double those for whites (To view the link you have to Register or Login) but the DRC is going to be one of the worst in the world, even if you could trust any kind of official statistics coming from there (whch you obviously can't).


eta I see wavey made this point first...
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Last edited by Clapham Rover; 26-12-2013 at 06:22 AM.
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  #84  
Old 26-12-2013, 06:31 AM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Meanwhile those poor confused Venezuelans seem to quite enjoy their lives despite groaning under the socialist jackboot

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Although Venezuela came 19th out of the 156 countries surveyed, all other countries featured in the happiest twenty are found in the developed world, with the exception of Costa Rica. Venezuela also ranked just one place below the United Kingdom, which came 18th in the overall study
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Whilst beating some of its Latin American neighbours, such as Mexico and Brazil, Venezuela also topped many European countries such as France, Spain, Italy and Germany. US ally Colombia, usually praised as a model of development in Latin America, also ranked surprisingly low in the study, coming in 41st place overall.
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Last edited by Clapham Rover; 26-12-2013 at 06:33 AM.
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  #85  
Old 26-12-2013, 08:45 AM
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  #86  
Old 26-12-2013, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
You are truly naive if you can't see the left-wing governments of South America are nothing more than self-enrichment schemes for the political elite.
That is a very broad and sweeping statement. I assume you are ruling out those left-wing leaders who in office took a centrist approach e.g. Lula in Brazil? If you are not then the most obvious counter is Uruguay and President José Mujica. There are price controls for essential commodities, as well as nationalised energy supply and telecomms, to support the incomes of the majority, and these seem to work OK if not applied absolutely. Pepe, as he is popularly known, is a global voice in promoting sustainability including by seeking to achieve growth through a means other than greater material consumption. With the economy ticking along at a growth rate of more than 3%, it doesn't seem to be hurting. Chile, is a nother example, that has, in an almost cross-party approach, taken state control of the areas that ensure people don't drop through a social floor, and left other areas to the market.
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  #87  
Old 26-12-2013, 10:04 AM
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Even if they have inflation bigtime Venezuela still has a long way to go before they reach our petrol pump prices.
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  #88  
Old 26-12-2013, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
It had a small part to play but ultimately it was caused by Greenspan cutting rates to 1%. Look at a chart of median income vs house prices, for 20 years they were perfectly correlated until 2001 and then took off, completely breaking the correlation. Coincidence that was when Greenspan was cutting rates? I don't think so.

I'm not sure what you mean by overgeneralise but do I think socialist policies lead to a net welfare loss over time? Yes. That's an accurate generalisation based on historical fact and will be proven true in the future. The fact that Venezuela is a complete basket case and yet is above criticizm and actually defended by you and the rest of the left-wing posters shows you're blinded by ideology.
I just started reading your posts and can see that you are an American by your spelling. That basically means you are fed propaganda about other nations like the North Koreans. Only difference is, you can look outside that net if you wish to, which many enlightened Americans do - only you choose to be a victim of the USA 'in house drive by' (ie the TV) - Land of the Free?

Did your house price correlation go back to the late 1980's at all? You know, that time of before you were born.
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  #89  
Old 26-12-2013, 11:03 AM
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America has been very naughty in South America. Thank **** the UK is whiter than white.
Apart from Croydon.
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  #90  
Old 26-12-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Far East Eagle View Post
Let's not throw around insults, and let's stick to the facts. In the 2013 election, Maduro won by over 200,000 votes. A large margin. When taken against Western democratic results, the 2000 US election came down to a few hundred 'hanging chads' in Florida and the 1992 British election was just 15,000 votes over key constituencies. To not recognise a 200,000 vote margin shows an attempt at mischief on the part of the Americans.

The British government has imposed a Tory as the head of the BBC, and Jeremy Hunt has threatened the BBC with having their funding cut if they show political 'bias'. Our government is forcing the state broadcaster to toe the government line. As is happening in Australia where Murdoch is pressuring the government to cut funding to ABC. Therefore, Venezuela is not alone in censoring the media, if indeed that actually is what its doing.

As I mentioned, the Venezuelan government has on numerous occasions used state power for the betterment of the people. Under Chavez, they re-nationalised oil, putting billions of pounds into healthcare and education. Under Maduro this has continued. I'll give two examples, when a private electronic goods company was seen as using their dominant market share to over charge customers, the government nationalised it, and reduced prices. To view the link you have to Register or Login Another example followed toilet paper shortage. Although this story recieved international attention, the solution to the problem, did not. To view the link you have to Register or Login The government stepped in, and secured supplies. But the company remained in private ownership, hardly a communist dictatorship.

Patria O Muerte
Yes and in 2000 US presidential election there was a recount. Every country's election laws are different and in Venezuela it appears the opposition is entitled to ask for a recount and challenge the result through the courts.

The Tories are entitled to ask for unbiased reporting from a state broadcaster, why should a taxpayer funded entity show political bias? I'm amazed you're attacking Jeremy Hunt for suggesting it reasonable to have a discussion about a cut to the license fee. It's a regressive tax, 70% are in favour of cutting it or abolishing it and the BBC seeking alternative funding.

Maduro and Chavez suppress the private press which is also a major difference than what our current government is doing. Journalists are censored by threats of large fines and prison terms for unfavourable coverage. Here's a report by the committee to protect journalists which lays out the facts To view the link you have to Register or Login

They nationalised PDVSA but oil production has fallen by a third since 2000 despite record high oil prices. Instead of using the oil revenues to invest in capital that would boost production they used all of the revenue for social programs.

Inflation in Venezuela is 50% because the government is financing itself by printing money and has nothing to do with private companies trying to make excessive profits. The dominant electronics business was pricing it's good relative to demand. When the value of money is being eroded on daily basis there's always a scramble for 'real' goods because no one wants to have paper money that will be worth less tomorrow. There might no actually be a dominant electronics company in Venezuela if the government actually respective private industry, what incentive does anyone have to start a business and compete if the government will come and take it away if it doesn't like the prices you charge? There's a reason why the Caracus stock market was up 500% this year.
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  #91  
Old 26-12-2013, 03:25 PM
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Tired neo-liberal claptrap . How awful to use revenue from resources to help the desperately poor. How good to read of nice businesses pricing its goods' relative to demand' So we have all got it wrong about the power companies , rail companies et al.
And we thought they were profiteers as their leaders wallow in their millions.
How awful to put restrictions on a press which refuse to give any balanced coverage of what goes on in society and actually represent the views of the dispossessed . Must be a terrible shock for the capitalist elite to hear their privileged views called into question.
Would that it could happen to the likes of propagandists Murdoch, Barclay brothers , Rothermeres and Desmond.
The fact is that the majority in Venezuela are happy and the poor are coming out to vote for Maduro despite scurrilous scaremongering campaigns by the USA backed opposition representing the views of the privileged minority
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  #92  
Old 26-12-2013, 03:32 PM
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I wish a few Venezuelan entities could get hold of enough USD to pay the insurance premiums they owe.
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  #93  
Old 26-12-2013, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mik59 View Post
That is a very broad and sweeping statement. I assume you are ruling out those left-wing leaders who in office took a centrist approach e.g. Lula in Brazil? If you are not then the most obvious counter is Uruguay and President José Mujica. There are price controls for essential commodities, as well as nationalised energy supply and telecomms, to support the incomes of the majority, and these seem to work OK if not applied absolutely. Pepe, as he is popularly known, is a global voice in promoting sustainability including by seeking to achieve growth through a means other than greater material consumption. With the economy ticking along at a growth rate of more than 3%, it doesn't seem to be hurting. Chile, is a nother example, that has, in an almost cross-party approach, taken state control of the areas that ensure people don't drop through a social floor, and left other areas to the market.
Lula was better than most Brazilian leaders before him but Rousseff has taken Brazil back to the left hence the current stagnation. Unlike Fernandez, Chavez and Maduro, Mujica is a man of integrity and isn't corrupt or out to enrich himself. The problem with the state run companies is they're massively inefficient, the cost of living in Uruguay is double that of Chile. The problem with the price controls is it does nothing to solve the problem. Prices are high because their's high demand and by limiting the profitability of the companies through price controls leaves them unable to invest in increasing production. A lot of Uruguayan growth has come from opening their economy up to trade but in order to continue they'll have to do structural reforms. Wages are tied to inflation which will create competitiveness problems going forwards.

I think Chile is a great country and if all of South America was run like Chile the region would experience Asian like growth. The only state run company I know of in Chile is the copper company so it's at all similar to Uruguay.
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  #94  
Old 26-12-2013, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by selhurstparkflyer View Post
No I used the UN's HDI. Sorry, I should've used your anecdotal evidence instead. My bad.
Ha. What, using data which is twelve months out of date and so doesn't encompass the latest moves in inflation rates and exchange rates? One of the references the OP was alluding to was that the current rates of 50% inflation isn't good news for citizens.

However, I should bow to your skills of basic google searches on the matter rather than first hand experience of the subject, or up to date knowledge. Debate over I guess.
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  #95  
Old 26-12-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by radiomike View Post
Tired neo-liberal claptrap . How awful to use revenue from resources to help the desperately poor. How good to read of nice businesses pricing its goods' relative to demand' So we have all got it wrong about the power companies , rail companies et al.
And we thought they were profiteers as their leaders wallow in their millions.
How awful to put restrictions on a press which refuse to give any balanced coverage of what goes on in society and actually represent the views of the dispossessed . Must be a terrible shock for the capitalist elite to hear their privileged views called into question.
Would that it could happen to the likes of propagandists Murdoch, Barclay brothers , Rothermeres and Desmond.
The fact is that the majority in Venezuela are happy and the poor are coming out to vote for Maduro despite scurrilous scaremongering campaigns by the USA backed opposition representing the views of the privileged minority
Even for an idiot like you, this is something else. First, you don't appear to know what "neo-liberal" means and second, you think that press restriction is a good thing.
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  #96  
Old 26-12-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by anti-addick View Post
I just started reading your posts and can see that you are an American by your spelling. That basically means you are fed propaganda about other nations like the North Koreans. Only difference is, you can look outside that net if you wish to, which many enlightened Americans do - only you choose to be a victim of the USA 'in house drive by' (ie the TV) - Land of the Free?

Did your house price correlation go back to the late 1980's at all? You know, that time of before you were born.
I'm not American but I guess the vast amount of American literature I've read has taken a toll on my spelling. The fact you think the reporting of executions, gulags and largesse of the political elite in North Korea is 'American propaganda' says it all.
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  #97  
Old 26-12-2013, 05:17 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Originally Posted by Stinger1 View Post
The problem with the state run companies is they're massively inefficient,.


Repeated as a mantra by all neo-liberal True Believers but I've never found one who can really explain what it means. Usually it turns out to mean that the problem with state run companies is that they aren't privately run companies and that's it.

It's a meaningless statement anyway, as formulated by you, because there's no such thing as "efficiency" per se. The question is, "efficient in terms of what?". Delivering a service that fulfils democratic decisions taken by an elected government? Handing over profits to shareholders? The former will be better done by a state run company, the latter by a private one. All depends what you want.

Do you really think the Big Six energy companies in the UK are "more efficient" than the old CEGB? If so, explain to me how having six identical sets of bureaucracies replacing one is "more efficient". Explain how having six (nearly) identical boards and chairmen paying themselves tens of millions of pounds per year for doing the same job that was done by one board paid the going civil service pay rate for the job, is "more efficient". Explain how the hundreds of millions of pounds spent by these companies advertising their wares each year as opposed to the advertising spend of zero is "more efficient".

It's all paid for by us. What do we get for it?
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  #98  
Old 26-12-2013, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post


Repeated as a mantra by all neo-liberal True Believers but I've never found one who can really explain what it means. Usually it turns out to mean that the problem with state run companies is that they aren't privately run companies and that's it.

It's a meaningless statement anyway, as formulated by you, because there's no such thing as "efficiency" per se. The question is, "efficient in terms of what?". Delivering a service that fulfils democratic decisions taken by an elected government? Handing over profits to shareholders? The former will be better done by a state run company, the latter by a private one. All depends what you want.

Do you really think the Big Six energy companies in the UK are "more efficient" than the old CEGB? If so, explain to me how having six identical sets of bureaucracies replacing one is "more efficient". Explain how having six (nearly) identical boards and chairmen paying themselves tens of millions of pounds per year for doing the same job that was done by one board paid the going civil service pay rate for the job, is "more efficient". Explain how the hundreds of millions of pounds spent by these companies advertising their wares each year as opposed to the advertising spend of zero is "more efficient".

It's all paid for by us. What do we get for it?

Looking forward to Stinger's answer to that one
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Old 26-12-2013, 05:29 PM
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DANGERMOUSE DANGERMOUSE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clapham Rover View Post


Repeated as a mantra by all neo-liberal True Believers but I've never found one who can really explain what it means. Usually it turns out to mean that the problem with state run companies is that they aren't privately run companies and that's it.

It's a meaningless statement anyway, as formulated by you, because there's no such thing as "efficiency" per se. The question is, "efficient in terms of what?". Delivering a service that fulfils democratic decisions taken by an elected government? Handing over profits to shareholders? The former will be better done by a state run company, the latter by a private one. All depends what you want.

Do you really think the Big Six energy companies in the UK are "more efficient" than the old CEGB? If so, explain to me how having six identical sets of bureaucracies replacing one is "more efficient". Explain how having six (nearly) identical boards and chairmen paying themselves tens of millions of pounds per year for doing the same job that was done by one board paid the going civil service pay rate for the job, is "more efficient". Explain how the hundreds of millions of pounds spent by these companies advertising their wares each year as opposed to the advertising spend of zero is "more efficient".

It's all paid for by us. What do we get for it?
Whilst not the perfect answer by any means, it would be useful to see how much our energy costs in real terms nowadays compared to thirty years ago. Likewise how standards of service compare.
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  #100  
Old 26-12-2013, 05:33 PM
Clapham Rover Clapham Rover is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
Whilst not the perfect answer by any means, it would be useful to see how much our energy costs in real terms nowadays compared to thirty years ago. Likewise how standards of service compare.
Why not answer your own question then. Do you think that our energy companies are "more efficient" now than under a state run system? It would help if you'd specify what efficiency you are talking about.
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