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  #23821  
Old 10-11-2017, 07:23 AM
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Are you two still going at it?
**** off. Thought you were better than that.
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  #23822  
Old 10-11-2017, 05:01 PM
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Really poor that ASLEF has left the RMT to fight on alone. ASLEF has always been a bit like that. Good on the RMT.

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RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said;

This shoddy deal, sponsored by Theresa May and Chris Grayling, extends and institutionalises discrimination against disabled and older people. Where once such passengers who required assistance were guaranteed a second member of staff to assist a new clause in this deal deliberately sets out how where there is no on board supervisor the driver will knowingly have to leave such passengers stranded on trains and stations. That is frankly appalling.

“RMT believes that a significant factor in delivering this result was the threat of massive legal costs levied on the union by GTR as a result of the anti-trade union laws. According to the respected industry journal Rail Business Intelligence punishing costs of £250,000 have already been meted out with a further half a million pounds being held back with a final payment to be based on the final terms agreed in any resolution to the dispute. That was a massive financial stick that the Courts had handed over to beat the union and its members with. RMT believes that threat had a decisive impact on this result.

“No one should underestimate the impact of the bundles of cash that were being waved about by the basket-case Southern Rail to swing this vote through, it’s just a scandal that the company won’t make the same financial commitments to keeping a guard on their trains.

“The result changes absolutely nothing in terms of RMT’s campaign for a safe and accessible railway for all.

"On behalf of RMT I repeat the demand that Theresa May and Chris Grayling call off the centrally imposed blockade on serious talks in all of the current rail disputes and allow us to get on with genuine negotiations with their contractors."

“If the Government allows normal industrial relations to recommence it would free the union up to negotiate deals like the ones we have successfully struck in Wales and Scotland that‎ guarantee a guard on the trains. If it's good enough for Scotland and Wales it's good enough for the rest of Britain.”
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  #23823  
Old 10-11-2017, 05:46 PM
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Fight on alone. ASLEF was dragged into the mess they created in the first place! Not to mention you can't sympathy strike anyway.
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  #23824  
Old 10-11-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Really poor that ASLEF has left the RMT to fight on alone. ASLEF has always been a bit like that. Good on the RMT.

ASLEF can only fight their battle... sympathy strikes are illegal.

I donít think the deal is brilliant, but itís far better than previous deals. The exceptions when a Train can run DOO have been cut from 9 reasons to 3. There is a Joint Working Party set up to monitor disabled access issues (I would have liked to see a disability rights campaigner on it). We have a commitment to upgrade CCTV.

Where the deal doesnít quite work for me... GTR/DfT have gone from treating disabled equally to positively discriminating against them. With this deal the impact will be limited... but itís still a (small) step in the wrong direction.
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  #23825  
Old 10-11-2017, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mushroom View Post
ASLEF can only fight their battle... sympathy strikes are illegal.

I donít think the deal is brilliant, but itís far better than previous deals. The exceptions when a Train can run DOO have been cut from 9 reasons to 3. There is a Joint Working Party set up to monitor disabled access issues (I would have liked to see a disability rights campaigner on it). We have a commitment to upgrade CCTV.

Where the deal doesnít quite work for me... GTR/DfT have gone from treating disabled equally to positively discriminating against them. With this deal the impact will be limited... but itís still a (small) step in the wrong direction.
It's the thin end of the wedge.

There are ways of getting around the draconian anti union laws. The RMT position is far more principled.
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  #23826  
Old 11-11-2017, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
It's the thin end of the wedge.

There are ways of getting around the draconian anti union laws. The RMT position is far more principled.
More principled... What everyone was made to change their job anyway and RMT done nothing to stop it.

Not to mention as an OBS they get paid more to do less work anyway.
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  #23827  
Old 11-11-2017, 02:04 AM
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More principled... What everyone was made to change their job anyway and RMT done nothing to stop it.

Not to mention as an OBS they get paid more to do less work anyway.
Paid more to do less? Well worth striking over that and buggering up peopleís lives.
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  #23828  
Old 11-11-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
It's the thin end of the wedge.

There are ways of getting around the draconian anti union laws. The RMT position is far more principled.
ASLEF a much smaller union than the RMT have spent over £1 million on court fees and their members have lost more in pay than the RMT members who will get £60 tax free for everyday they have been on strike from the RMT hardship fund, once the dispute is over .

The deal ASLEF agreed is a far improved deal for the guards and OBS role than previously offered .
Some striking guards actually wanted the drivers to agree this latest offer in hope that their dispute will end .
This is the best deal for all IMO and a fair compromise both by the the ASLEF union and Southern GTR and now everyone can move on and re-establish good industrial relations along with improving the Train service .

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  #23829  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
It's the thin end of the wedge.



There are ways of getting around the draconian anti union laws. The RMT position is far more principled.

You may have a point about it being the thin end of the wedge... time will tell.. we may even have to fight this battle again at some time in the future.

What ways are there of getting around the union laws? GTR are very litigious... ASLEF have paid out hundreds of thousands in Legal expenses... so itís gonna have to be good.

Iím not going to dig out drivers for accepting a better deal for disabled and safety. Iím proud they fought so hard... GTR obviously thought they could offer us money and weíd forget about safety/disabled access.

Undoubtedly, this deal isnít as good for disabled as before enforced doo... but weíre fighting a company and a Tory government... it ainít easy.

To win this fight, we needed to be as one... guards/drivers/commuters. That was never gonna happen... sympathy strikes are illegal. *Not enough commuters understood what the strikes were about (Some thought it was just about who closes the doors).
You can see by this thread... loads of people just wanted to get to work... they pay their (high) fares... why should they get involved in a fight about disabled access??? Obviously some commuters did... and that was awesome... but not enough to so DfT would listen. Divide n conquer innit.

I voted no (I was close to voting yes) purely because this deal meant disabled were gonna be treated differently. Maybe under a different government... we can come back to this.
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  #23830  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:28 AM
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You may have a point about it being the thin end of the wedge... time will tell.. we may even have to fight this battle again at some time in the future.

What ways are there of getting around the union laws? GTR are very litigious... ASLEF have paid out hundreds of thousands in Legal expenses... so it’s gonna have to be good.

I’m not going to dig out drivers for accepting a better deal for disabled and safety. I’m proud they fought so hard... GTR obviously thought they could offer us money and we’d forget about safety/disabled access.

Undoubtedly, this deal isn’t as good for disabled as before enforced doo... but we’re fighting a company and a Tory government... it ain’t easy.

To win this fight, we needed to be as one... guards/drivers/commuters. That was never gonna happen... sympathy strikes are illegal. *Not enough commuters understood what the strikes were about (Some thought it was just about who closes the doors).
You can see by this thread... loads of people just wanted to get to work... they pay their (high) fares... why should they get involved in a fight about disabled access??? Obviously some commuters did... and that was awesome... but not enough to so DfT would listen. Divide n conquer innit.

I voted no (I was close to voting yes) purely because this deal meant disabled were gonna be treated differently. Maybe under a different government... we can come back to this.
Haven't Labour promised to Nationalise the railways and reinstate guards or halt DOO ?
The disabled groups will likely mount a legal challenge at some stage as well .
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  #23831  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:41 AM
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Haven't Labour promised to Nationalise the railways and reinstate guards or halt DOO ?

The disabled groups will likely mount a legal challenge at some stage as well .

I hope so.... it will be costly though
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  #23832  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:54 AM
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Laugh away at the ******* misery you’ve caused ordinary commuters. Families ****ed off with not knowing when their dad will be home. Promising to be home at a certain time and turning up ages later because the trains were ****ed.

You’ve balled up my life for a pay rise.
I've asked this before and didn't really get an answer iirc

Why not change your commute ? Stop whining and acting like a two year old when things don't go perfectly and do something proactive about it.

I drive to Leeds most days. I know that if I set off before 6.30 I'm (generally) going to have a decent run and it will take me about an hour. If I leave much after 7 I'm pretty sure it will be sticky and I'll end up being stop start most of the way and could be sat in the motor for anything from 1 hour 20 to 2 hours.

I know that coming home if I leave after 4.30, I'm fooked. So I make sure I leave before then whenever possible. That's how it works. I dont bleat about it and let it ruin my life.

Yes, the train companies should be held accountable but seriously, you need to take matters into your own hands and don't give them the opportunity to let you down
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  #23833  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:57 AM
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I hope so.... it will be costly though
I think now this deal has been agreed the Disabled groups will become more organised and vocal .
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:29 AM
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You may have a point about it being the thin end of the wedge... time will tell.. we may even have to fight this battle again at some time in the future.

What ways are there of getting around the union laws? GTR are very litigious... ASLEF have paid out hundreds of thousands in Legal expenses... so itís gonna have to be good.

Iím not going to dig out drivers for accepting a better deal for disabled and safety. Iím proud they fought so hard... GTR obviously thought they could offer us money and weíd forget about safety/disabled access.

Undoubtedly, this deal isnít as good for disabled as before enforced doo... but weíre fighting a company and a Tory government... it ainít easy.

To win this fight, we needed to be as one... guards/drivers/commuters. That was never gonna happen... sympathy strikes are illegal. *Not enough commuters understood what the strikes were about (Some thought it was just about who closes the doors).
You can see by this thread... loads of people just wanted to get to work... they pay their (high) fares... why should they get involved in a fight about disabled access??? Obviously some commuters did... and that was awesome... but not enough to so DfT would listen. Divide n conquer innit.

I voted no (I was close to voting yes) purely because this deal meant disabled were gonna be treated differently. Maybe under a different government... we can come back to this.
I don't blame the drivers I blame the ASLEF leadership. For ages there has been the sense they have been desperate to end the dispute. It hardly gives confidence to members. I think if they had then drivers may have fought on with the RMT.

The scathing words of the RMT about the deal, sadly, I think are true.

It's not just a matter of the unions sizes, for a long time the RMT has had a more radical leadership.

This deal is clearly the thin end of the edge as it concedes that sometimes it's ok to leave disabled people on the platform. Once that point is conceded it's a very dodgy road to go down.
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  #23835  
Old 11-11-2017, 09:46 AM
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For those who say it was about money Drivers on Virgin trains have been awarded a 9% pay rise this year .
A shortage of drivers and the training costs is driving up the pay .
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:52 AM
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This dispute is clearly about far more than money.

But when people go on about train drivers and money it really winds me up.

Firstly it's a very tough job. Constant shifts, and a very real chance once or more times you will see a suicide right in front of you in your career.

Secondly see them as an inspiration of how workers can get decent pay. Rather than blaming drivers for low pay else where, as if they are the reason!
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Old 11-11-2017, 09:56 AM
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I don't blame the drivers I blame the ASLEF leadership. For ages there has been the sense they have been desperate to end the dispute. It hardly gives confidence to members. I think if they had then drivers may have fought on with the RMT.

The scathing words of the RMT about the deal, sadly, I think are true.

It's not just a matter of the unions sizes, for a long time the RMT has had a more radical leadership.

This deal is clearly the thin end of the edge as it concedes that sometimes it's ok to leave disabled people on the platform. Once that point is conceded it's a very dodgy road to go down.
79% of Drivers voted for the deal so your talking rubbish as usual and Mick cash is a poor leader for the RMT hence why Mick Lynch is seen more in the media , The heady days of the RMT led by the faultless Bob Crow are sadly over .
All the trains that had guards will now have an OBS , In that respect nothing has changed for the disabled , Under the old system with a guard the train would be cancelled in the 3 exceptions and any disabled person planning to travel on the cancelled service would be unable to travel in the same way they can't now .
ASLEF have not compromised the disabled in anyway extra with this deal over what was already in place as far as I can see .
The fight is now down to those outside the industry .
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:16 AM
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79% of Drivers voted for the deal so your talking rubbish as usual and Mick cash is a poor leader for the RMT hence why Mick Lynch is seen more in the media , The heady days of the RMT led by the faultless Bob Crow are sadly over .
All the trains that had guards will now have an OBS , In that respect nothing has changed for the disabled , Under the old system with a guard the train would be cancelled in the 3 exceptions and any disabled person planning to travel on the cancelled service would be unable to travel in the same way they can't now .
ASLEF have not compromised the disabled in anyway extra with this deal over what was already in place as far as I can see .
The fight is now down to those outside the industry .
I know 79% of drivers voted for the deal, my point is it's obvious the leadership has been trying to get this dispute called off for ages (didn't they recommended a previous deal that was then rejected?).

Bob Crow would have said the same about this deal. It is shoddy, leaves disabled people on platforms when there is a train there and is the thin end of the edge. It concedes the principal that it's ok to have a train at a platform that a disabled person can't get on, meaning they are a second class citizen treated differently than others.

As for you, you thought voting thatcher was a good idea.
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:28 AM
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I know 79% of drivers voted for the deal, my point is it's obvious the leadership has been trying to get this dispute called off for ages (didn't they recommended a previous deal that was then rejected?).

Bob Crow would have said the same about this deal. It is shoddy, leaves disabled people on platforms when there is a train there and is the thin end of the edge. It concedes the principal that it's ok to have a train at a platform that a disabled person can't get on, meaning they are a second class citizen treated differently than others.

As for you, you thought voting thatcher was a good idea.
How does this deal degrade what was already in place for the disabled with Guards on trains ? The situation with the disabled is no worse than previously ?
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
I don't blame the drivers I blame the ASLEF leadership. For ages there has been the sense they have been desperate to end the dispute. It hardly gives confidence to members. I think if they had then drivers may have fought on with the RMT.



The scathing words of the RMT about the deal, sadly, I think are true.



It's not just a matter of the unions sizes, for a long time the RMT has had a more radical leadership.



This deal is clearly the thin end of the edge as it concedes that sometimes it's ok to leave disabled people on the platform. Once that point is conceded it's a very dodgy road to go down.


Youíre last paragraph I agree with. DfT are heartless
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