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  #20001  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:10 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
I am a bit confused? All I was trying to do was justify why I thought that people living within the UK should have an automatic right to move around the UK whilst those from Canada might not automtaically (although they might under certain circumstances). I'm not sure what is so controversial, or does everyone agree with CockneyRebel that there should be automatic free movement from workers around the world?
That's a different question. But I'm talking about the rights EU migrants have and why they should have as much right coming to London, going forward, as someone from Stoke. Personally I think it would be good if we could sign FOM agreements with other countries.

Indeed one of the totally and utterly undemocratic things about the referendum was that EU citizens living in the UK couldn't vote. If they could Remain would have almost certainly won. Yet Aussies over here for a year could vote.
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  #20002  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:10 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Oisin View Post
I thought it controversial you equated citizenship with tax contribution. That is irrelevant
Exactly.
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  #20003  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:14 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
A significant portion of local government taxes are paid for out of central government funding, lottery grants are paid for out of the national lottery and public sector wages in London are paid for out of national taxes - just like the other way round. So yes Stoke people have paid taxes to support London as the other way round. In any case I think Stoke people should be able to move to London and I think those in Ohio should be able to move to New York. That is a free market and free movement within a sovereign country so I'm not sure what you are talking about here.
Actually by 2020 all local government funding will be raised locally. So what you're saying isn't true. Including local government workers. So by your utter nonsense that paying tax should equate to rights, everyone should have to stay in their borough or county.

You are now going on to some vague stuff about sovereign countries. You originally suggested people moving around and large populations could affect wages and unemployment and rents. Where is the evidence for this in the USA or China?
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  #20004  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:16 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
That's a different question. But I'm talking about the rights EU migrants have and why they should have as much right coming to London, going forward, as someone from Stoke. Personally I think it would be good if we could sign FOM agreements with other countries.

Indeed one of the totally and utterly undemocratic things about the referendum was that EU citizens living in the UK couldn't vote. If they could Remain would have almost certainly won. Yet Aussies over here for a year could vote.
Sorry, not clear here. If you are saying that those from EU countries living here should have their rights protected I agree 100%. Personally I would rather not have left even though I am concerned about the rights of those with family members from, say, Jamaica. However, I suspect that what we will end up with free movement to the UK if you have a job offer or you are clearly self-supporting but will lose some free market access at the edges. The alternative will ruin many people's lives both economically and socially both here and in Europe. Too many are making the mistake of looking at winners and losers at a macro-economic rather than micro-economic level.
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  #20005  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:17 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Sorry, not clear here. If you are saying that those from EU countries living here should have their rights protected I agree 100%. Personally I would rather not have left even though I am concerned about the rights of those with family members from, say, Jamaica. However, I suspect that what we will end up with free movement to the UK if you have a job offer or you are clearly self-supporting but will lose some free market access at the edges. The alternative will ruin many people's lives both economically and socially both here and in Europe. Too many are making the mistake of looking at winners and losers at a macro-economic rather than micro-economic level.
No I'm saying EU citizens should continue to have the right, as they do now, to come to the UK, just as much as someone from Stoke should continue to have the right to come to London.
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  #20006  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:18 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Actually by 2020 all local government funding will be raised locally. So what you're saying isn't true. Including local government workers. So by your utter nonsense that paying tax should equate to rights, everyone should have to stay in their borough or county.

You are now going on to some vague stuff about sovereign countries. You originally suggested people moving around and large populations could affect wages and unemployment and rents. Where is the evidence for this in the USA or China?
No you said that people in Stoke had not paid taxes to London and I am saying they have. Their national taxes pay for salaries of central government workers, their national taxes pay for local government right now and their lottery tickets have paid for buildings in London - as the other way round.
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  #20007  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:19 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
No I'm saying EU citizens should continue to have the right, as they do now, to come to the UK, just as much as someone from Stoke should continue to have the right to come to London.
Do you think after leaving the EU that citizens from EU countries should have priority over relatives from countries such as Jamaica, Australia and India?
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  #20008  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:26 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
No you said that people in Stoke had not paid taxes to London and I am saying they have. Their national taxes pay for salaries of central government workers, their national taxes pay for local government right now and their lottery tickets have paid for buildings in London - as the other way round.
Firstly I don't think how much tax you pay should have any kind of impact on your rights. It's totally out of order. People under 18, people who can't work because of disabilities or sickness, those who haven't been able to find work. It would mean, in your book, they shouldn't have rights.

And as I've pointed out all local government funding by 2020 will be raised locally. So by your strange way of stating who has right to move around or not, we would all be told to stay in our local borough or county.
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  #20009  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:27 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
Do you think after leaving the EU that citizens from EU countries should have priority over relatives from countries such as Jamaica, Australia and India?
I think that EU citizens already have these rights and should keep them. Just like people being able to move to London from Scotland, Wales or Ireland should keep them.

We should then look at expanding that with FOM agreements with other countries.
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  #20010  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:28 PM
Hpalace Hpalace is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
So what if people have paid taxes? Again people in Stoke haven't paid any taxes to local government in London or for the GLA, so why should they move here by your rationale? What about 18 year olds that haven't paid any tax yet, should they have to stay in their town?

It's not obvious what you're saying at all. In the USA no one says that people moving about causes more unemployment or affects wages. It's just a total and utter bullshit logic.
I can see your point CR but there is a couple of factors that have to be taken into account. In the USA everyone is paid in dollars. There is variation from state to state as to how many dollars per hour a 'job is worth' and variation from state to state as to cost of living. Now if you have a scenario that all of a sudden a US carpenter directly competes against a carpenter that walks into the US from Haiti, previously paid in the gourde then those variations become much more exaggerated.

In the case of the EU there was little complaint (as far as I can recall) about FOM when it was just the original states. These complaints started when the East European nations joined as all of a sudden another more extreme factor was thrown into the mix. Rightly or wrongly the perception was that a 25 year old Polish carpenter could treble his wages by moving to the UK and still undercut the 25 year old UK born carpenter. For me given further investment in the EU over time these extreme balances would have become less exaggerated. Unfortunately the majority did not agree with me.

I for one have to constantly compete with people massively undercutting the services I offer. FOM or no FOM this will continue to be the case. I can live with this but I can also kind of understand why others have had enough and were not prepared to give it more time. If for instance we had FOM with Malawi it would not work unless serious investment went into Malawi and wages began to get close/equal to those in the UK.
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  #20011  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:34 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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I can see your point CR but there is a couple of factors that have to be taken into account. In the USA everyone is paid in dollars. There is variation from state to state as to how many dollars per hour a 'job is worth' and variation from state to state as to cost of living. Now if you have a scenario that all of a sudden a US carpenter directly competes against a carpenter that walks into the US from Haiti, previously paid in the gourde then those variations become much more exaggerated.

In the case of the EU there was little complaint (as far as I can recall) about FOM when it was just the original states. These complaints started when the East European nations joined as all of a sudden another more extreme factor was thrown into the mix. Rightly or wrongly the perception was that a 25 year old Polish carpenter could treble his wages by moving to the UK and still undercut the 25 year old UK born carpenter. For me given further investment in the EU over time these extreme balances would have become less exaggerated. Unfortunately the majority did not agree with me.

I for one have to constantly compete with people massively undercutting the services I offer. FOM or no FOM this will continue to be the case. I can live with this but I can also kind of understand why others have had enough and were not prepared to give it more time. If for instance we had FOM with Malawi it would not work unless serious investment went into Malawi and wages began to get close/equal to those in the UK.
Not sure different currencies have much to do with it. Ireland don't have the same currency but I think should keep their FOM rights.

Also people go from Alaska and Hawaii and Puerto Rico to the mainland USA. I think the variation in rates and inequality could well be larger from state to state in the USA than country to country in the EU.

I think it's just as much rubbish that 25 year old plumber from Poland undercuts wages, than a 25 plumber from a poor US state going to a rich US state. Or a poor area of China to a rich area of China.

The thing that will stop companies screwing over workers are strong unions and workers rights. This could have been achieved in a far better way in a global economy across Europe than in one country.

Last edited by cockneyrebel; 23-01-2017 at 03:37 PM.
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  #20012  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:42 PM
Nth Kent Eagle Nth Kent Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Firstly I don't think how much tax you pay should have any kind of impact on your rights. It's totally out of order. People under 18, people who can't work because of disabilities or sickness, those who haven't been able to find work. It would mean, in your book, they shouldn't have rights.

And as I've pointed out all local government funding by 2020 will be raised locally. So by your strange way of stating who has right to move around or not, we would all be told to stay in our local borough or county.
Agree, it should never just be about taxes and people who make other contributions to society should also be recognized e.g. work in the community, volunteering and campaigning for the rights around disability. Many under 18 will pay taxes by the way such as VAT.
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  #20013  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:48 PM
Hpalace Hpalace is offline
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Not sure different currencies have much to do with it. Ireland don't have the same currency but I think should keep their FOM rights.

Also people go from Alaska and Hawaii and Puerto Rico to the USA. I think the variation in rates and inequality could well be larger from state to state in the USA than country to country in the EU.

I think it's just as much rubbish that 25 year old plumber from Poland undercuts wages, than a 25 plumber from a poor US state going to a rich US state. Or a poor area of China to a rich area of China.

The thing that will stop companies screwing over workers are strong unions and workers rights. This could have been achieved in a far better way in a global economy across Europe than in one country.
I agree in an ideal Star Trek world kind of way (not taking the piss but could not think of a better way to describe a world with a level playing field).

Ireland is a good example. For years and years there has been emigration from Ireland to the UK with very little recipricol emigration from the UK to Ireland. The Irish used to come over, share a house with multiple occupancy, live off cheap food and undercut the UK worker. This was met with resentment and racism. The UK worker felt that the Irish worker was able to convert their pounds to punts and send the money home to their family. The converted punts were worth more in Ireland and gave his family in Ireland a better way of life than they would have had if daddy had stayed at home. Now the Welsh carpenter still has to pay UK taxes, feed his family and pay his rent with pounds. He can undercut but not to the same extreme. Remember "Irish need not apply"? It was protectionism.

The key to the EU project IMOP was time. Bring the other countries up and the workers will not come en-masse as the push/pull factors would decrease. Over time those countries become wealthier and they buy your goods/services. Everyone wins. The UK (England) traditionally does not respond well to mass immigration. It was really fecking stupid to open the doors and not follow the route of the other original states which gives more TIME for the other states to catch up economically a bit lessening push/pull.

Economically sound but politically stupid given history.
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  #20014  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:48 PM
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  #20015  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:49 PM
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Agree, it should never just be about taxes and people who make other contributions to society should also be recognized e.g. work in the community, volunteering and campaigning for the rights around disability. Many under 18 will pay taxes by the way such as VAT.
Which comes back to my view that EU citizens should maintain their right to have FOM to the UK, just as people from Ireland, Scotland and Wales should maintain their right to come to England, and from Stoke to the UK.
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Old 23-01-2017, 03:51 PM
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Stoke to the UK.
Harsh
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  #20017  
Old 23-01-2017, 03:53 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
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I agree in an ideal Star Trek world kind of way (not taking the piss but could not think of a better way to describe a world with a level playing field).

Ireland is a good example. For years and years there has been emigration from Ireland to the UK with very little recipricol emigration from the UK to Ireland. The Irish used to come over, share a house with multiple occupancy, live off cheap food and undercut the UK worker. This was met with resentment and racism. The UK worker felt that the Irish worker was able to convert their pounds to punts and send the money home to their family. The converted punts were worth more in Ireland and gave his family in Ireland a better way of life than they would have had if daddy had stayed at home. Now the Welsh carpenter still has to pay UK taxes, feed his family and pay his rent with pounds. He can undercut but not to the same extreme. Remember "Irish need not apply"? It was protectionism.

The key to the EU project IMOP was time. Bring the other countries up and the workers will not come en-masse as the push/pull factors would decrease. Over time those countries become wealthier and they buy your goods/services. Everyone wins. The UK (England) traditionally does not respond well to mass immigration. It was really fecking stupid to open the doors and not follow the route of the other original states which gives more TIME for the other states to catch up economically a bit lessening push/pull.

Economically sound but politically stupid given history.
It's not a weird star trek world though. Until 2016 it was seen as perfectly normal that people in the EU could move around how they wanted to.

I still maintain, and I think the evidence backs it, that people moving around is not what affects wages or unemployment. Otherwise the USA and China would be screwed. I'm sure that people from Hawaii and Puerto Rico send money back to Hawaii and Puerto Rico, or people in New York can send money back to Ohio.

I think nationalism and patriotism are a total mugs game that just benefit the rich. The UK will be far worse off place and far worse off economically by pulling up the drawbridge.
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Old 23-01-2017, 03:54 PM
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Harsh
I meant London. But yeah I may have inadvertently had a point. London should become a city state and stick up borders. Then we'd see how the rest of the UK got on without "that London".
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Old 23-01-2017, 04:06 PM
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It's not a weird star trek world though. Until 2016 it was seen as perfectly normal that people in the EU could move around how they wanted to.

I still maintain, and I think the evidence backs it, that people moving around is not what affects wages or unemployment. Otherwise the USA and China would be screwed. I'm sure that people from Hawaii and Puerto Rico send money back to Hawaii and Puerto Rico, or people in New York can send money back to Ohio.

I think nationalism and patriotism are a total mugs game that just benefit the rich. The UK will be far worse off place and far worse off economically by pulling up the drawbridge.
It was seen as normal until the accession states joined and economic disparity was an issue. Its been a large political ball for several years. Irish were an issue and black immigration was an issue previously.

I agree. Someone working in London and sending money back to Stoke will leave their family better off. Someone working in New York and sending their money back to Ohio will be better off. However someone working in London and sending their money back to Riga will be considerably better off and someone working in New York and sending their money back to Haiti will be considerably better off. I have some friends that decided to go and teach in Riga for two years. In just two years they were able to save a 10% deposit for a house in the South East. International teaching pays roughly the same but it is one of the very few exceptions and has high barriers of entry. Their cost of living was one fifth of what it cost to live in the UK.

I agree the UK will be worse off economically. Patriotism is not a mug's game however nationalism is. If we ever go to war again in a serious way patriotism will come in very useful.
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Old 23-01-2017, 04:29 PM
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It was seen as normal until the accession states joined and economic disparity was an issue. Its been a large political ball for several years. Irish were an issue and black immigration was an issue previously.

I agree. Someone working in London and sending money back to Stoke will leave their family better off. Someone working in New York and sending their money back to Ohio will be better off. However someone working in London and sending their money back to Riga will be considerably better off and someone working in New York and sending their money back to Haiti will be considerably better off. I have some friends that decided to go and teach in Riga for two years. In just two years they were able to save a 10% deposit for a house in the South East. International teaching pays roughly the same but it is one of the very few exceptions and has high barriers of entry. Their cost of living was one fifth of what it cost to live in the UK.

I agree the UK will be worse off economically. Patriotism is not a mug's game however nationalism is. If we ever go to war again in a serious way patriotism will come in very useful.
I don't think the accession states caused that much of a big deal. I don't think anyone was that bothered about having a referendum, and if we hadn't had one, most people wouldn't have cared. Brexit had a hugely anti migrant campaign and has whipped up negative feeling. But I agree that over time it would have been less and less of an issue.

I think that someone sending money from New York to Puerto Rico would be considerably better off. Fundamentally unions and good workers rights get people good wages and good employment, stopping migrants won't. Any more than banning women coming in to the workplace would or have a one child birth control policy would.

We will have to disagree about patriotism and agree about nationalism
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