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  #81  
Old 25-08-2016, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by little al View Post
Only the first couple of lines got me!!
Ah, I see. Well, a summary then: under our constitution "the rules" are that a government has the right of royal prerogative only where that does not cut across a law passed by Parliament, and the argument here is that if this Government invokes Article 50 without a Parliamentary vote then it is breaking this rule. So the legal challenge is to make sure we play by the rules rather than change them.
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  #82  
Old 25-08-2016, 07:30 PM
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Ah, I see. Well, a summary then: under our constitution "the rules" are that a government has the right of royal prerogative only where that does not cut across a law passed by Parliament, and the argument here is that if this Government invokes Article 50 without a Parliamentary vote then it is breaking this rule. So the legal challenge is to make sure we play by the rules rather than change them.

Surely the peoples vote matters and the only vote Parliament need to do is on how we exit?
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  #83  
Old 25-08-2016, 07:45 PM
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Surely the peoples vote matters and the only vote Parliament need to do is on how we exit?
The EU referendum as voted for by parliament, was "non-binding".

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  #84  
Old 25-08-2016, 08:06 PM
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Surely the peoples vote matters and the only vote Parliament need to do is on how we exit?
No. The legal argument is that as Parliament passed the European Communities Act then Government cannot decide alone to leave the EEC or EU as it is now. That would fall foul of constitutional convention, or so those bringing the case believe.
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  #85  
Old 28-08-2016, 10:43 AM
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A technical article on the implications of Article 50 in terms of UK statute and the task of repatriating laws derived from the EU. The scale of this is huge and there are shortcuts so avoid everything being done by Parliament which might take 10 years, but these authors believe that there are risks to that because if you take Parliament out of the picture then you are undermining Parliamentary sovereignty.
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  #86  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:06 AM
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Lets go, just for a second, and envisage a scenario in which a British Parliament decides to ignore the wishes of the British people, as expressed on June 23rd, and votes down legislation necessary to facilitate our leaving the EU with it made abundantly clear that this is now a no-go.

Lets also assume that people like me are all bluff and bluster and would not go out onto the streets and take direct action but merely slink off back to our hovels and watch reality TV, muttering away to ourselves whilst eating fish and chips.

What next for British politics? Seriously. What actually happens then to our entire system of Government?

Does it carry on as normal? Do people go back to their tribal loyalties in terms of who they might vote for again?
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  #87  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
Lets go, just for a second, and envisage a scenario in which a British Parliament decides to ignore the wishes of the British people, as expressed on June 23rd, and votes down legislation necessary to facilitate our leaving the EU with it made abundantly clear that this is now a no-go.

Lets also assume that people like me are all bluff and bluster and would not go out onto the streets and take direct action but merely slink off back to our hovels and watch reality TV, muttering away to ourselves whilst eating fish and chips.

What next for British politics? Seriously. What actually happens then to our entire system of Government?

Does it carry on as normal? Do people go back to their tribal loyalties in terms of who they might vote for again?
probably.
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  #88  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:21 AM
Mat ov CPFC Mat ov CPFC is offline
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
probably.
Probably.

Says it all really.

A major exercise in democracy, which enthused millions of people to make the effort to vote for the first time in decades, which empowered people to actually believe in the democratic process once again and you think that people would 'probably' let the old order reestablish itself and ignore that vote.

This country would change for ever. And in a way which nobody can truly comprehend. But returning to how things were, that I think is very unlikely.

An absolutely, genuine, 'stab in the back' narrative would be created. And by the very people who, collectively, are the most despised in this country as things stand.
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  #89  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
Lets go, just for a second, and envisage a scenario in which a British Parliament decides to ignore the wishes of the British people, as expressed on June 23rd, and votes down legislation necessary to facilitate our leaving the EU with it made abundantly clear that this is now a no-go.

Lets also assume that people like me are all bluff and bluster and would not go out onto the streets and take direct action but merely slink off back to our hovels and watch reality TV, muttering away to ourselves whilst eating fish and chips.

What next for British politics? Seriously. What actually happens then to our entire system of Government?

Does it carry on as normal? Do people go back to their tribal loyalties in terms of who they might vote for again?
If a significant swathe of Brexit votes were more 'protest' ones rather than 'let's have a minor revolution' ones then those same people probably feel they have had their say and got something bothering them off their chest and would be now ok just to chugg along instead of putting the UK at unnecessary risk.

As for "ignoring the wishes of the British people" , Brexit is not my wish nor 48% of the other 33 million who voted.
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  #90  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:32 AM
Mat ov CPFC Mat ov CPFC is offline
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Originally Posted by Am Phibian View Post
If a significant swathe of Brexit votes were more 'protest' ones rather than 'let's have a minor revolution' ones then those same people probably feel they have had their say and got something bothering them off their chest and would be now ok just to chugg along instead of putting the UK at unnecessary risk.
So people should be content to just 'chugg' along because our betters up in Parliament decide that is in our best interests? You honestly believe that people should just accept that?
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  #91  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
So people should be content to just 'chugg' along because our betters up in Parliament decide that is in our best interests? You honestly believe that people should just accept that?
I didn't say that. I said that some of protest voters would be ok with the status quo having vented. Put it this way, some were a lot more passionate about the Leave vote before the referendum than after. I just can't see there being an unstoppable peoples movement a la Poll Tax to implement Brexit should it be thrown into doubt.
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  #92  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Am Phibian View Post
I didn't say that. I said that some of protest voters would be ok with the status quo having vented. Put it this way, some were a lot more passionate about the Leave vote before the referendum than after. I just can't see there being an unstoppable peoples movement a la Poll Tax to implement Brexit should it be thrown into doubt.
But in principle, you think it is fine for the victory of the Leave campaign on June 23rd to be ignored by Parliament, despite the clear pledge to have the outcome of the vote honoured?
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  #93  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mat ov CPFC View Post
But in principle, you think it is fine for the victory of the Leave campaign on June 23rd to be ignored by Parliament, despite the clear pledge to have the outcome of the vote honoured?
Parliament is not bound by the vote. No one is legally bound by the vote. The previous government had agreed to implement it but that government doesn't exist any more (though the current one seems equally intent on acting on the pledge).

So in the case of marginal outcome, which it was, I don't think there is much anyone can assume is the correct outcome. If the government puts forward the motion and is defeated, then fair enough. Though I seriously doubt it would be defeated.
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  #94  
Old 28-08-2016, 11:58 AM
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But in principle, you think it is fine for the victory of the Leave campaign on June 23rd to be ignored by Parliament, despite the clear pledge to have the outcome of the vote honoured?
If it is clear that it is going to be more or less unworkable and somewhat ruinous then 'yes' of course. Why on earth would anyone that want's what is best for the country desire something to be implemented that would be a significant negative for us?

We had a referendum which was full of lies and misinformation. Not really a concrete case for a seismic shift, is it? Especially as half the country, more or less, don't want to do it.
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  #95  
Old 28-08-2016, 12:01 PM
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We had a referendum which was full of lies and misinformation. Not really a concrete case for a seismic shift, is it? Especially as half the country, more or less, don't want to do it.
Over half the country do want it. That is the reality of the vote on June 23rd. To deny that is beyond foolish.
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  #96  
Old 28-08-2016, 12:04 PM
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Over half the country do want it. That is the reality of the vote on June 23rd. To deny that is beyond foolish.
Over half want what they were sold by Nigeboy and Goveney. But the goods are dodgy. Can they return them or get a refund? To deny them that is wrong.
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  #97  
Old 28-08-2016, 12:05 PM
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But in principle, you think it is fine for the victory of the Leave campaign on June 23rd to be ignored by Parliament, despite the clear pledge to have the outcome of the vote honoured?
If the result is non binding, do you feel lied to?
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Old 28-08-2016, 12:08 PM
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Probably.

Says it all really.

A major exercise in democracy, which enthused millions of people to make the effort to vote for the first time in decades, which empowered people to actually believe in the democratic process once again and you think that people would 'probably' let the old order reestablish itself and ignore that vote.

This country would change for ever. And in a way which nobody can truly comprehend. But returning to how things were, that I think is very unlikely.

An absolutely, genuine, 'stab in the back' narrative would be created. And by the very people who, collectively, are the most despised in this country as things stand.
It wouldn't be the 1st time though would it. After overthrowing the monarchy, it took 11 years for them to be brought back.
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Old 28-08-2016, 12:08 PM
Mat ov CPFC Mat ov CPFC is offline
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If the result is non binding, do you feel lied to?
Absolutely. More than that in fact. Conned. Betrayed. Stabbed in the back.

And that hatred and loathing will only fester. There is no acceptance around this and I am confident that the same can be said for millions of others.

A failure to honour this decision will result in this country being divided in a way not seen in hundreds of years.
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Old 28-08-2016, 12:09 PM
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Absolutely. More than that in fact. Conned. Betrayed. Stabbed in the back.

And that hatred and loathing will only fester. There is no acceptance around this and I am confident that the same can be said for millions of others.

A failure to honour this decision will result in this country being divided in a way not seen in hundreds of years.
As will honouring it.
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