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  #21  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:22 AM
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This makes interesting reading. Points deduction!!! We could be off the bottom by Christmas after all.

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  #22  
Old 06-11-2017, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Cpfcbob View Post
David Icke exposed this two decades ago, has also insisted for twenty odd years that prince philip is a bigger pedo than jimmy savalie
David Icke is an interesting case. I have listened to quite a bit of what he's said over the years and to me, putting to one side all the things he claims, and just analysing his demeanour and the tone and manner in which he says things; he does strike me as somebody who is mentally unwell. Now that's not to say that everything he claims is untrue, but he reminds me of people I've known in my life who have been diagnosed with Schizophrenia or other mental disorders.

It's the fervent way he puts his views across with little or no humour, has a persecution complex and comes across as quite paranoid, and also appears to have complete certainty in everything he is saying...it just looks like he's having some kind of psychological episode to me.

Doesn't necessarily mean everything he says is wrong though .
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  #23  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Kipungu View Post
Tops.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2017, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by boxthorncutter View Post

Top 1% already pay 28% of tax revenues in this country btw.
Not on all their income though.
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by boxthorncutter View Post
Wait, is this the same BBC that blabbers on & on about how Brexit could upset the City of London?

Very selective over the rich they choose to pick on, as usual.

Top 1% already pay 28% of tax revenues in this country btw.
Oh yes of course. 28% of what is not stashed away in offshore tax havens
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  #26  
Old 06-11-2017, 07:39 AM
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Just read on the BBC that Lord Ashcroft sat in the House of Lords for years whilst not even a proper resident of the country.

How the **** is that allowed?
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  #27  
Old 06-11-2017, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Golf Boy View Post
Just read on the BBC that Lord Ashcroft sat in the House of Lords for years whilst not even a proper resident of the country.

How the **** is that allowed?
He has/had non-don status. He was tax resident. But if he has managed the trust’s activities he is in the shit
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  #28  
Old 06-11-2017, 07:45 AM
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I guess either you believe in free(ish) trade and free(ish) movement of wealth, or you don't. I would rather have the system we do now than currency controls and needing a licence to take five hundred quid out of the contry for your summer holiday.

Avoiding tax is not illegal; investing overseas is not illegal; yet even though the reports make that caveat once or twice the tone of all the reportage is that this is a massive scandal and heinous wrongdoing has been exposed.

Even bog-standard high street stocks & shares ISAs will have exposure to overseas investments. (In fact, owing to the principle of spreading risk, it would be concerning if they didn't.) So to imply that just because someone has money overseas, or in trusts, they are automatically shady is very unfair. In some ways it's tantamount to defamation.

That's not to say that some structures aren't complicated and opaque; or that money laundering or tax evasion doesn't go on - of course it does: domestically as well as internationally. But without evidence that someone has broken the law, the coverage is snide and laughable, really. I mean, one of the whinges the Beeb has against the Queen is that some of her money was in Threshers, which collapsed and went out of business. Right, so your point being...?

Find the people who've stolen money, who've evaded tax, who've broken the law and expose them. Leave everyone else out of it. This petty finger-pointing is myopic, seemingly driven by envy of the rich, and doesn't really consider wider issues.
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  #29  
Old 06-11-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
I guess either you believe in free(ish) trade and free(ish) movement of wealth, or you don't. I would rather have the system we do now than currency controls and needing a licence to take five hundred quid out of the contry for your summer holiday.

Avoiding tax is not illegal; investing overseas is not illegal; yet even though the reports make that caveat once or twice the tone of all the reportage is that this is a massive scandal and heinous wrongdoing has been exposed.

Even bog-standard high street stocks & shares ISAs will have exposure to overseas investments. (In fact, owing to the principle of spreading risk, it would be concerning if they didn't.) So to imply that just because someone has money overseas, or in trusts, they are automatically shady is very unfair. In some ways it's tantamount to defamation.

That's not to say that some structures aren't complicated and opaque; or that money laundering or tax evasion doesn't go on - of course it does: domestically as well as internationally. But without evidence that someone has broken the law, the coverage is snide and laughable, really. I mean, one of the whinges the Beeb has against the Queen is that some of her money was in Threshers, which collapsed and went out of business. Right, so your point being...?

Find the people who've stolen money, who've evaded tax, who've broken the law and expose them. Leave everyone else out of it. This petty finger-pointing is myopic, seemingly driven by envy of the rich, and doesn't really consider wider issues.
not sure I agree with this, well that last part mainly.

HMRC’s responsibility is to properly investigate everyone. Naturally the focus is going on large taxpayers / MNCs who would appear to pay less tax than you might otherwise expect. Tax structuring requires a lot of maintenance to be effective, so if someone hasn’t properly maintained whatever they were doing of course the focus should be on that, likewise if the person concerned has blatantly ignored the rules they should be thrown to the lions. If Ashcroft has actively managed trust activity (and approving trust actions before they do them is that) then he should be thrown to the lions.
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Last edited by Adlerhorst; 06-11-2017 at 08:06 AM.
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  #30  
Old 06-11-2017, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
I guess either you believe in free(ish) trade and free(ish) movement of wealth, or you don't. I would rather have the system we do now than currency controls and needing a licence to take five hundred quid out of the contry for your summer holiday.

Avoiding tax is not illegal; investing overseas is not illegal; yet even though the reports make that caveat once or twice the tone of all the reportage is that this is a massive scandal and heinous wrongdoing has been exposed.

Even bog-standard high street stocks & shares ISAs will have exposure to overseas investments. (In fact, owing to the principle of spreading risk, it would be concerning if they didn't.) So to imply that just because someone has money overseas, or in trusts, they are automatically shady is very unfair. In some ways it's tantamount to defamation.

That's not to say that some structures aren't complicated and opaque; or that money laundering or tax evasion doesn't go on - of course it does: domestically as well as internationally. But without evidence that someone has broken the law, the coverage is snide and laughable, really. I mean, one of the whinges the Beeb has against the Queen is that some of her money was in Threshers, which collapsed and went out of business. Right, so your point being...?

Find the people who've stolen money, who've evaded tax, who've broken the law and expose them. Leave everyone else out of it. This petty finger-pointing is myopic, seemingly driven by envy of the rich, and doesn't really consider wider issues.
I understand all that but why is the money invested secret which of course makes it harder for the revenue to investigate
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  #31  
Old 06-11-2017, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by bubbs11 View Post
David Icke is an interesting case. I have listened to quite a bit of what he's said over the years and to me, putting to one side all the things he claims, and just analysing his demeanour and the tone and manner in which he says things; he does strike me as somebody who is mentally unwell. Now that's not to say that everything he claims is untrue, but he reminds me of people I've known in my life who have been diagnosed with Schizophrenia or other mental disorders.

It's the fervent way he puts his views across with little or no humour, has a persecution complex and comes across as quite paranoid, and also appears to have complete certainty in everything he is saying...it just looks like he's having some kind of psychological episode to me.

Doesn't necessarily mean everything he says is wrong though .
He's a soft target and the butt of endless jokes. Would be nuts to agree with everything he says, as radical it seems, but the further down the rabbit hole you go, the quicker your overcome your cognitive dissonance and realise that, bloody hell, perhaps this man could have a point. Many, in fact.

Regarding mental health, I 100% believe people on various bands of the spectrum have 6th sense information and am sure science will reveal much more on this in the future.

Going back to the subject matter Icke exposed this wealth transfer long long ago.
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  #32  
Old 06-11-2017, 08:38 AM
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What a load of ******* shit. Icke is delusional.

Also he’s a stalking horse for much worse. If you are ****ed up enough to consider space lizards, Elders Of Zion should be an easy sell
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  #33  
Old 06-11-2017, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
I guess either you believe in free(ish) trade and free(ish) movement of wealth, or you don't. I would rather have the system we do now than currency controls and needing a licence to take five hundred quid out of the contry for your summer holiday.

Avoiding tax is not illegal; investing overseas is not illegal; yet even though the reports make that caveat once or twice the tone of all the reportage is that this is a massive scandal and heinous wrongdoing has been exposed.

Even bog-standard high street stocks & shares ISAs will have exposure to overseas investments. (In fact, owing to the principle of spreading risk, it would be concerning if they didn't.) So to imply that just because someone has money overseas, or in trusts, they are automatically shady is very unfair. In some ways it's tantamount to defamation.

That's not to say that some structures aren't complicated and opaque; or that money laundering or tax evasion doesn't go on - of course it does: domestically as well as internationally. But without evidence that someone has broken the law, the coverage is snide and laughable, really. I mean, one of the whinges the Beeb has against the Queen is that some of her money was in Threshers, which collapsed and went out of business. Right, so your point being...?

Find the people who've stolen money, who've evaded tax, who've broken the law and expose them. Leave everyone else out of it. This petty finger-pointing is myopic, seemingly driven by envy of the rich, and doesn't really consider wider issues.
This is the right answer. Although it is unpalatable that some people or companies 'avoid' tax it is not 'evasion'.. any credible finance director has to be tax efficient and a large number of people have ISA's etc If we dont it like then change the law e.g introduce a 'point of consumption on companies like Starbucks and Amazon like they did with the gambling industry.
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  #34  
Old 06-11-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DANGERMOUSE View Post
I guess either you believe in free(ish) trade and free(ish) movement of wealth, or you don't. I would rather have the system we do now than currency controls and needing a licence to take five hundred quid out of the contry for your summer holiday.

Avoiding tax is not illegal; investing overseas is not illegal; yet even though the reports make that caveat once or twice the tone of all the reportage is that this is a massive scandal and heinous wrongdoing has been exposed.

Even bog-standard high street stocks & shares ISAs will have exposure to overseas investments. (In fact, owing to the principle of spreading risk, it would be concerning if they didn't.) So to imply that just because someone has money overseas, or in trusts, they are automatically shady is very unfair. In some ways it's tantamount to defamation.

That's not to say that some structures aren't complicated and opaque; or that money laundering or tax evasion doesn't go on - of course it does: domestically as well as internationally. But without evidence that someone has broken the law, the coverage is snide and laughable, really. I mean, one of the whinges the Beeb has against the Queen is that some of her money was in Threshers, which collapsed and went out of business. Right, so your point being...?

Find the people who've stolen money, who've evaded tax, who've broken the law and expose them. Leave everyone else out of it. This petty finger-pointing is myopic, seemingly driven by envy of the rich, and doesn't really consider wider issues.
It may not be illegal but going to great lengths to avoid tax is surely immoral and grotesquely unfair on hard working pay as you earn plebs.

Apartheid was also legal in South Africa but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be frowned upon.

Clearly not exactly comparing like for like with that example but pointing out that illegal/immoral can be a thin line sometimes.
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  #35  
Old 06-11-2017, 09:10 AM
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And remind me what % of the assets the top 1% own?
And how that percentage has soared during austerity since the banking fraud.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by boxthorncutter View Post
Wait, is this the same BBC that blabbers on & on about how Brexit could upset the City of London?

Very selective over the rich they choose to pick on, as usual.

Top 1% already pay 28% of tax revenues in this country btw.
My you've done a great job bashing the BBC and defending tax evasion. Why would you want to do that?
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnybegood View Post
This is the right answer. Although it is unpalatable that some people or companies 'avoid' tax it is not 'evasion'.. any credible finance director has to be tax efficient and a large number of people have ISA's etc If we dont it like then change the law e.g introduce a 'point of consumption on companies like Starbucks and Amazon like they did with the gambling industry.
Wrong answer. A tax on all movement of money across national borders is essential.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:18 AM
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  #39  
Old 06-11-2017, 09:31 AM
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It may not be illegal but going to great lengths to avoid tax is surely immoral and grotesquely unfair on hard working pay as you earn plebs.

Apartheid was also legal in South Africa but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be frowned upon.

Clearly not exactly comparing like for like with that example but pointing out that illegal/immoral can be a thin line sometimes.
te thing is no one actually cares, or at least does not care enough to change their behaviours. And that includes individuals and governments.

Let me give you a for example. Apple sell hardware through what is essentially a commissionaire structure. The laws that govern whether or not a commissionaire structure creates a taxable presence in a country (called a permanent establishment) are governed both through domestic law and bilateral treaties between countries. Broadly under those arrangement the equipment selling entity with have a taxable presence in a country where another entity which is not independent (Apple retail stores) have the authority to and habitually conclude contracts on behalf of the non-resident entity. For commissionaire structures, due to their nature, the local entity does not do this, so the equipment sales are not taxed locally, and the local entity pays tax on the services it provides (which are essentially sales support)

Now there has been lots of pressure / shouting about how outrageous this is. And the OECD just ran a massive project to simultaneously change the tax treaties of every country who participted. To get people to participate they had to include optionality in the deal. One of the things they gave optionality over was the definition of Agency PE to specifically catch these commissionaire structures. So if countries wanted to kill the structures they could have.

There are 200 plus countries in the world. About 90 got involved in the project in some form. About 60 ish signed up to the instrument that allowed the changes to be made to their tax treaties. Only 27 chose the optionality to stop this structure. Many of those who decided not to pick that optionality were countries who have been very outwardly vocal about how evil Apple are. They chose to allow them to continue.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Adlerhorst View Post
te thing is no one actually cares, or at least does not care enough to change their behaviours. And that includes individuals and governments.

Let me give you a for example. Apple sell hardware through what is essentially a commissionaire structure. The laws that govern whether or not a commissionaire structure creates a taxable presence in a country (called a permanent establishment) are governed both through domestic law and bilateral treaties between countries. Broadly under those arrangement the equipment selling entity with have a taxable presence in a country where another entity which is not independent (Apple retail stores) have the authority to and habitually conclude contracts on behalf of the non-resident entity. For commissionaire structures, due to their nature, the local entity does not do this, so the equipment sales are not taxed locally, and the local entity pays tax on the services it provides (which are essentially sales support)

Now there has been lots of pressure / shouting about how outrageous this is. And the OECD just ran a massive project to simultaneously change the tax treaties of every country who participted. To get people to participate they had to include optionality in the deal. One of the things they gave optionality over was the definition of Agency PE to specifically catch these commissionaire structures. So if countries wanted to kill the structures they could have.

There are 200 plus countries in the world. About 90 got involved in the project in some form. About 60 ish signed up to the instrument that allowed the changes to be made to their tax treaties. Only 27 chose the optionality to stop this structure. Many of those who decided not to pick that optionality were countries who have been very outwardly vocal about how evil Apple are. They chose to allow them to continue.

Do you know why?
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