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  #21  
Old 08-11-2017, 01:46 PM
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Stphen E Ambrose - Pegasus Bridge

The first incursion of D-day and the turning point of the war. Loosely touched on by Band of Brothers
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Brody View Post
Thought I'd start a specific thread, as this has been a refreshing off-topic debate recently within other threads.

Some questions raised thus far;

1) was Great Britain actually in danger of being successfully invaded in 1940?

2) who had the most powerful naval forces?

Feel free to widen the debate.

I'll start by adding my post re the Battle of Britain.
1) Not really

2) USA by the end of the war. Possibly GB or Japan at the start.
I think Germany had the best trained navy and quality of vessels, just not the numbers.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:54 PM
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Interesting, my source was 'Horrible Histories'.
Ha!

As much as it sounds amusing now, disciplinary action was taken against the HG member and his unit, along with revised orders being issued to prevent repetition. It went up to the Under Secretary of State for War.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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Stphen E Ambrose - Pegasus Bridge

The first incursion of D-day and the turning point of the war. Loosely touched on by Band of Brothers
Sorry, his book is crap IMO. Littered with errors and reads like fiction.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:56 PM
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I think Germany had the best trained navy and quality of vessels, just not the numbers.
Sums the Germans up doesn’t it? Great training and quality of weapons, vessels, aircraft etc, but never had the manpower to realistically win the war.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:58 PM
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1) Not really

2) USA by the end of the war. Possibly GB or Japan at the start.
I think Germany had the best trained navy and quality of vessels, just not the numbers.
Interested to hear your views fleshed out re the Kriegsmarine?
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:59 PM
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Sums the Germans up doesn’t it? Great training and quality of weapons, vessels, aircraft etc, but never had the manpower to realistically win the war.
Yet, the largest combatant with significant reliance on horsepower....(edit Russia was large too, but believe Germany fielded the largest number of horses)

The BEF in comparison was entirely motorised at the start of the War, mule trains being used in some colonial units.
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Last edited by Chief Brody; 08-11-2017 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Russia edit
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Old 08-11-2017, 02:27 PM
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Yet, the largest combatant with significant reliance on horsepower....(edit Russia was large too, but believe Germany fielded the largest number of horses)

The BEF in comparison was entirely motorised at the start of the War, mule trains being used in some colonial units.
I didn’t say they had the best military, that’d be the US as it was just the most well rounded by a mile. But they had some fantastic weapons (MG-42, MP40, STG-44 towards the end of the war,) great tanks (struggled to prouduce enough Tigers which is a result of manpower,) aircraft that wasn’t any better than say a spitfire but still decent. Navy was definitely lacking though. The soldiers were well trained and their commanders employed revolutionary tactics, the most obvious being Blitzkreig. The quality was there in most aspects of their military, it was just the lack of manpower to A) produce enough aircraft, tanks etc B) Match the sheer numbers of the Soviets in particular and C) Fight on two fronts. I.e, quality but not quantity.
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Old 08-11-2017, 02:32 PM
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I didn’t say they had the best military, that’d be the US as it was just the most well rounded by a mile. But they had some fantastic weapons (MG-42, MP40, STG-44 towards the end of the war,) great tanks (struggled to prouduce enough Tigers which is a result of manpower,) aircraft that wasn’t any better than say a spitfire but still decent. Navy was definitely lacking though. The soldiers were well trained and their commanders employed revolutionary tactics, the most obvious being Blitzkreig. The quality was there in most aspects of their military, it was just the lack of manpower to A) produce enough aircraft, tanks etc B) Match the sheer numbers of the Soviets in particular and C) Fight on two fronts. I.e, quality but not quantity.
Sure, I made my point from an oxymoron pov.

And re your wider point above. Yes, they were outmanned, but also, crucially, out built as you say.

Re the US, best military? Arguable. The best economy, yes.
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  #30  
Old 08-11-2017, 02:50 PM
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The soldiers were well trained and their commanders employed revolutionary tactics, the most obvious being Blitzkreig.
That is the well-trodden doctrine, but became ineffective and inappropriate as the War progressed, and ultimately redundant as the Germans moved to the defensive.

THE key tactical difference employed by the German Army of WW2 (and WW1, with origins dating back to Frederick The Great) and what undoubtedly gave them the opportunity of superiority over their enemies from squad level and up, throughout the conflict, was Auftragstaktik.

Check it out. Very interesting. Very simple.
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  #31  
Old 08-11-2017, 02:57 PM
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Stphen E Ambrose - Pegasus Bridge

The first incursion of D-day and the turning point of the war. Loosely touched on by Band of Brothers
If you are interested in this action, can I suggest, IMO, the best book on the subject by Neil Barber. And only 0.99p on Kindle at present.

You won't read a better researched account.

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  #32  
Old 08-11-2017, 04:22 PM
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With regards to naval tactics, the 'Wolfpacks' were incredibly effective and must have been absolutely terrifying to face.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:31 PM
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What the importance of Escape to Victory, had they lost that match would we still have won the war?
Why did the crowd, as they were living at the height of the conflict, sometime between 1942 and 1945, dress in a style most would recognise to be associated with the 1970's?

Was there a particular part of Paris that had discovered bell-bottom jeans decades before it was inflicted on the rest of the world, and did this abomination in itself play any part in Hitler's occupation of France?
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  #34  
Old 08-11-2017, 04:46 PM
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Hitler only ever visited Paris once. Maybe he wasn't a fan of 1970's jeans?
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:58 PM
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1) No. The Germans lacked the capability to force an opposed crossing and follow up. From initially considering it to be a glorified river crossing, they fairly quickly realised it was a sea they could not crack.

2) The Allies had the most powerful and effective naval forces throughout the conflict.

3) The Allied forces in UK would have used chemical weapons on the invaders.
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  #36  
Old 08-11-2017, 05:11 PM
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The Germans would have wanted control over Britain but would not (IMO) instigated a full invasion.

Essentially a German satellite state but keeping all the British bits Hitler liked including a Royal family with Edward and Wallis etc.

Fatherland and that BBC drama had similar themes - I don't think we would all be speaking German as is often said although maybe as second language.
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:22 PM
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The Germans would have wanted control over Britain but would not (IMO) instigated a full invasion.



Essentially a German satellite state but keeping all the British bits Hitler liked including a Royal family with Edward and Wallis etc.



Fatherland and that BBC drama had similar themes - I don't think we would all be speaking German as is often said although maybe as second language.

How would Germany have control over GB, without us suing for peace?

And if they could not invade us, which they could not, why would we sue for peace?
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:57 PM
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Here's a question... If the Channel wasn't there:

1) Would the Nazis have ever ever invaded Belgium, Holland and France?

2) If so, would the Nazis have attempted to take over Britain at the same time too?

3) Either way, would they ever have successfully invaded Britain?
1) Absolutely yes. I am not sure I understand the question really. Germany was at war with France - France had declared war on Germany shortly after Germany attacked Poland. Invading the low countries was a way to circum-navigate the Maginot Line and invade France, so I can't see the Channel had much to do with it.

2) Yes, without doubt. They tried to attack Britain when the Channel was there (see Battle of Britain), so they definitely would if it hadn't been there. In such a scenario I suspect they would have attacked London as a bigger priority ahead of Paris. Blitzkreig relied on hitting the tough targets before the enemy could organise.

3) Yes, no problem at all if there was no English Channel.

Last edited by Raggy; 08-11-2017 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:04 PM
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Interested to hear your views fleshed out re the Kriegsmarine?
Several reasons.

Germans had superb pocket battleships and more advanced submarine tactics.

While there was no major naval face off in WW2, in WW1, the Battle of Jutland proved that the German navy outmatched the British pound for pound.

Finally, I remember reading somewhere that the German sailors were better trained, disciplined and all-round more effective than pretty much all other navies at the time.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:43 PM
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The Germans would have wanted control over Britain but would not (IMO) instigated a full invasion.

Essentially a German satellite state but keeping all the British bits Hitler liked including a Royal family with Edward and Wallis etc.

Fatherland and that BBC drama had similar themes - I don't think we would all be speaking German as is often said although maybe as second language.
You make it sound almost benign.
Certainly wouldn't be speaking much German if you were a British Jew.....
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