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  #41  
Old 16-11-2017, 04:47 PM
Sharkba1t Sharkba1t is offline
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Originally Posted by bunter View Post
Everyone seems to be taking Sharkba1t's bait.
What I find quite laughable is that if you don't agree with the majority on here, you are clearly wrong.

The Tories didn't make these cuts because they wanted to! Nobody would. They had to, and I find it unbelievable that people cant see that.
If the situation had been the other way around then labour would have made drastic cuts too. And simply blamed the Tories.

As for Osborne personally I think he is / was useless, perhaps even more so than Brown was.

Osborne is one of the major factors that so many people voted for Brexit. And that will cost us more than "Browns Bottom" .
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  #42  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharkba1t View Post
The Tories didn't make these cuts because they wanted to! Nobody would. They had to, and I find it unbelievable that people cant see that.
You don't think a fair number of Tories would like to get us to similar levels of government spending that you see in some US states? I know a Tory who would like to see government spending as a proportion of GDP down to 25%.

It's part of their ideology. What do you think the 'Big Society' was about? Shifting public services onto the charity sector. It's caused homelessness to increase fourfold since 2010.
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  #43  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:21 PM
Harry Bassett Harry Bassett is offline
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Originally Posted by Sharkba1t View Post
What I find quite laughable is that if you don't agree with the majority on here, you are clearly wrong.

The Tories didn't make these cuts because they wanted to! Nobody would. They had to, and I find it unbelievable that people cant see that.
If the situation had been the other way around then labour would have made drastic cuts too. And simply blamed the Tories.

As for Osborne personally I think he is / was useless, perhaps even more so than Brown was.

Osborne is one of the major factors that so many people voted for Brexit. And that will cost us more than "Browns Bottom" .
Some of the spongers who lived off the state needed sorting out I doubt any sensible person would disagree with that but from another perspective the cuts were driven by warped Tory Ideology and "stuff" vulnerable people.

Thank God that for some of the time Clegg and his merry men curtailed some of the excesses of Cameron and Osborne. All politicians and in particular the Tory party (Very old fashioned people) need to understand that they represent the People.
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  #44  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharkba1t View Post
The Tories didn't make these cuts because they wanted to! Nobody would. They had to.
I don't accept that at all. It was an ideological decision, as others have already said, and therefore they did want to.

You only need to look at where the biggest cuts have been to understand that. It's very easy to cut services that you and your family will never need to use. Austerity hasn't worked, that seems clear. However, our NHS is now so underfunded that the Tories can continue to push through their stealth privatisation.
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  #45  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by brighton_eagle View Post
I don't accept that at all. It was an ideological decision, as others have already said, and therefore they did want to.

You only need to look at where the biggest cuts have been to understand that. It's very easy to cut services that you and your family will never need to use. Austerity hasn't worked, that seems clear. However, our NHS is now so underfunded that the Tories can continue to push through their stealth privatisation.
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  #46  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:25 PM
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I think some of the hysteria against the Tories need to be tempered a bit. We were coming off the biggest crash since the Great Depression. Some austerity was unavoidable. However, should it have been so harsh? No. Should the money have been earmarked for infrastructure? Yes. Should the banks that ruthlessly and recklessly chased the capitalist ideal been allowed to fail? Yes. Should have George Obsborne been Chancellor for six years? No.

Here is an interesting discussion from Quora. Both sides are represented

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Would the situation been any better under a borrow and spend policy. I think not. No one knows and its an unknowable unknown at that.
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  #47  
Old 16-11-2017, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DAWSYEAGLE View Post
I think some of the hysteria against the Tories need to be tempered a bit. We were coming off the biggest crash since the Great Depression. Some austerity was unavoidable. However, should it have been so harsh? No. Should the money have been earmarked for infrastructure? Yes. Should the banks that ruthlessly and recklessly chased the capitalist ideal been allowed to fail? Yes. Should have George Obsborne been Chancellor for six years? No.

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Would the situation been any better under a borrow and spend policy. I think not. No one knows and its an unknowable unknown at that.
I think you can certainly say yes to this. Especially on an individual basis.
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  #48  
Old 16-11-2017, 06:06 PM
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It wasn't just the Tories, nor just American in origin. The City was at the heart of the mess and New Labour had been happy to take the finance taxes and were fully signed up to neoliberalist measures and still are. The Liberals enthusiastically backed austerity when in coalition. 90+% of the media, the same jokers who now moan about fake news, helped spread the austerity agenda every day for years. It's no wonder the mud sticks.
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  #49  
Old 16-11-2017, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DAWSYEAGLE View Post
I think some of the hysteria against the Tories need to be tempered a bit. We were coming off the biggest crash since the Great Depression. Some austerity was unavoidable. However, should it have been so harsh? No. Should the money have been earmarked for infrastructure? Yes. Should the banks that ruthlessly and recklessly chased the capitalist ideal been allowed to fail? Yes. Should have George Obsborne been Chancellor for six years? No.

Here is an interesting discussion from Quora. Both sides are represented

To view the link you have to Register or Login

Would the situation been any better under a borrow and spend policy. I think not. No one knows and its an unknowable unknown at that.
I'm not sure people quite get just how much suffering this would have caused or how much this would have cost the country trying to reimburse the savings of all 50 million people who had money in a bank.

All the banks were so interlinked that if one failed all the other banks would go with them.

Simply letting the banks fold was never a realistic option and would almost certainly have lead to many, many more than 120,000 deaths over the years.

Sorry to go off on a tangent.
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  #50  
Old 16-11-2017, 07:28 PM
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Had Labour have won in 2010 they would have faced a worse situation than forecast and would have borrowed more or spent less than they forecast. The BP oil spill wiped out 1/7th of dividends, the Eurozone banking crisis led to write downs e.g 11bn in Italy and Spain by Voda, the weak domestic demand in the EU led manufacturers to switch sales towards the UK and the banks had greater hidden liabilities than expected. I still think however the investment cuts by Osborne were wrong and damaging and he should have done a lot more to protect the vulnerable.
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  #51  
Old 16-11-2017, 07:34 PM
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Agreed - thank you for that correction - austerity was the Coalition and this current mob though.
Agreed.

Whilst i agree with living within means which we were not doing under the previous Labour administration, certainly not saving for harder times, spending where there will be a return on that using low interest rates would be worthwhile.

I know a lot don't like the credit card analogy but living off the card and using it to fund the weekly shop is very different to buying a car that would allow you to get a new or better job for example.

The balance has not be found yet.
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Old 16-11-2017, 07:45 PM
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House hold budgets are a million miles from how a government budget works
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  #53  
Old 16-11-2017, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sharkba1t View Post
What I find quite laughable is that if you don't agree with the majority on here, you are clearly wrong.
Or of course, you could just be wrong.
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Old 16-11-2017, 09:56 PM
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House hold budgets are a million miles from how a government budget works
My biggest political pet peeve is how many people don't understand this
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Old 16-11-2017, 10:02 PM
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House hold budgets are a million miles from how a government budget works
Too true. This was an analogy trumped up by Osborne to justify his austeirty plan. It was grossly incorrect and misleading back then, and it still is today. Try reading Keynes and you will see how deceptive this analogy is.
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  #56  
Old 17-11-2017, 12:36 AM
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Cuts had to be made because of the awful mess the previous Govt left behind.

What about that financial genius Gordon Brown, selling off our gold reserves at its low point?

I'm not saying the Tories cuts were ALL necessary and all directed in the right places, but we undoubtedly had to make big cuts.

And the previous comment about QE are plain wrong - it was never free money! - all that cash doesn't just stay in the banks earning interest - Banks who benefited from that cheap funding were obliged to lend it on in the form of mortgages and loans to small businesses.

The bottom line is though the govts of Blair and Brown encouraged rampant borrowing without thinking ahead and now we have to pay the price in the form of cuts.
If I went round with a gun and shot 120,000 people would you be as forgiving?
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Old 17-11-2017, 12:55 AM
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The Tories didn't make these cuts because they wanted to! Nobody would. They had to, and I find it unbelievable that people cant see that.
Of course they wanted to.They chose to.The government could have borrowed more and spent if they had wanted to.They made a decision not to which many people at the time said was the wrong thing to do.The people who said this have been proved correct.
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  #58  
Old 17-11-2017, 07:16 AM
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Bloody Hell do we have to believe every piece of news every report. Go back to the first post the give away to the this is the comment in quotes "may have produced" the report the figures are based on the increase level of deaths it dismisses some and then concludes its austerity, and we get the terms economic murder etc. If you read the reports quotes even by those who wrote the report they admit they have not taken into account the affect of the ageing population for instance.
There is another report out that got lost in accusations of racism against Emma Dent Coad the deprivation in Kensington, the differences in the borough. Its another report that make me pull my hair out there is a contrast between the have and the have nots no one denies it. Read the report one part the have nots are back to Victorian times there is a case of rickets and cases of malnutrition (there is a caveat on that I will come to it). It was intended to cause a similar uproar to the report we are discussing here. Rickets the cause of is the lack of Vitamin D this can be diet related or it is lack of exposure to the sun and supplements are given its not necessarily anything to do with diet or lack of money. Unlike malnutrition we all know that is, do we also know that malnutrition can be a cause of being over weight medically its not lack of food its lack of certain vitamins in the diet. Credit the report it does mention over weight.
FFS there is enough wrong in this country the debate on austerity has been going since 2010. Personally I thought Balls had it right invest and cut I still do. Osborne cuts were wrong as much a Corbyns spend will be wrong but no, not in this country now days its the extreme.
So in my view some on here need to stop being sheep following the flock screaming at every headline that supports their own view. The bunch of politicians on both sides we have right now are the worse in my memory that are leading us all down a path of disaster, the choice is which one takes us there slower and whilst some lap up half baked reports headlines memes nothing will change. What we should be screaming for right now is in the words of the Boss a saviour to rise from these streets. For as sure as eggs are eggs unless a politician that can kick some sense back into government emerges in the very near future I despair for the long term future.
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Old 17-11-2017, 07:28 AM
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Bloody Hell do we have to believe every piece of news every report. Go back to the first post the give away to the this is the comment in quotes "may have produced" the report the figures are based on the increase level of deaths it dismisses some and then concludes its austerity, and we get the terms economic murder etc. If you read the reports quotes even by those who wrote the report they admit they have not taken into account the affect of the ageing population for instance.
There is another report out that got lost in accusations of racism against Emma Dent Coad the deprivation in Kensington, the differences in the borough. Its another report that make me pull my hair out there is a contrast between the have and the have nots no one denies it. Read the report one part the have nots are back to Victorian times there is a case of rickets and cases of malnutrition (there is a caveat on that I will come to it). It was intended to cause a similar uproar to the report we are discussing here. Rickets the cause of is the lack of Vitamin D this can be diet related or it is lack of exposure to the sun and supplements are given its not necessarily anything to do with diet or lack of money. Unlike malnutrition we all know that is, do we also know that malnutrition can be a cause of being over weight medically its not lack of food its lack of certain vitamins in the diet. Credit the report it does mention over weight.
FFS there is enough wrong in this country the debate on austerity has been going since 2010. Personally I thought Balls had it right invest and cut I still do. Osborne cuts were wrong as much a Corbyns spend will be wrong but no, not in this country now days its the extreme.
So in my view some on here need to stop being sheep following the flock screaming at every headline that supports their own view. The bunch of politicians on both sides we have right now are the worse in my memory that are leading us all down a path of disaster, the choice is which one takes us there slower and whilst some lap up half baked reports headlines memes nothing will change. What we should be screaming for right now is in the words of the Boss a saviour to rise from these streets. For as sure as eggs are eggs unless a politician that can kick some sense back into government emerges in the very near future I despair for the long term future.
Well it's taken 3 pages and 58 posts but at last we have some sense
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Old 17-11-2017, 07:57 AM
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The country is still paying the price now for the reckless and bonus driven behaviour of the banks and the pathetic regulation before the depression. Libor, sub prime mortgages, PPI etc. That behaviour brought in the taxes for the UK short term but is still causing problems today. Again, still doesn't excuse the investment cuts early in the Osborne years.
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