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  #61  
Old 17-11-2017, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Bloody Hell do we have to believe every piece of news every report. Go back to the first post the give away to the this is the comment in quotes "may have produced" the report the figures are based on the increase level of deaths it dismisses some and then concludes its austerity, and we get the terms economic murder etc. If you read the reports quotes even by those who wrote the report they admit they have not taken into account the affect of the ageing population for instance.
I checked out the link and had a quick scan read of the report, and I don't think the report was unfair or misleading. Their conclusion points to only an "association" to cuts between the 2010/14 period. They make no claims beyond that. Just one professor was reported in the news link that made the "economic murder " claim, so you can blame him for your anger if you like. Of course, we do have an ageing population, but it hasn't just started ageing between those dates, it has been going on now for some time even when we didn't have spikes in annual death rates. In any event the figures are true, so nothing there not to be believed, and they certainly demand an urgent explanation.

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There is another report out that got lost in accusations of racism against Emma Dent Coad the deprivation in Kensington, the differences in the borough. Its another report that make me pull my hair out there is a contrast between the have and the have nots no one denies it. Read the report one part the have nots are back to Victorian times there is a case of rickets and cases of malnutrition (there is a caveat on that I will come to it). It was intended to cause a similar uproar to the report we are discussing here. Rickets the cause of is the lack of Vitamin D this can be diet related or it is lack of exposure to the sun and supplements are given its not necessarily anything to do with diet or lack of money. Unlike malnutrition we all know that is, do we also know that malnutrition can be a cause of being over weight medically its not lack of food its lack of certain vitamins in the diet. Credit the report it does mention over weight.
As you haven't provided links for any of these reports, I have checked out the stuff relating to rickets, and it is far more complex than you imply. There has been a fourfold increase in rickets, and the general consensus is that it is caused by poor diet. Poor diet is prevalent among the poor, so hence again, an "association". However, and you say there are other factors that cause vitamin D deficiencies, and most of the reports I have read also mention these and do not try to just blame poverty, As to supplements on offer to the poor, this was said:

" Families on benefits are supposed to get free vitamins but the RCPCH say that, while the take-up is poor, supplies are also low."

So yes a number of factors are all contributory, but the poor seem to be the main victims, for whatever reason.

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FFS there is enough wrong in this country the debate on austerity has been going since 2010. Personally I thought Balls had it right invest and cut I still do. Osborne cuts were wrong as much a Corbyns spend will be wrong but no, not in this country now days its the extreme.
So in my view some on here need to stop being sheep following the flock screaming at every headline that supports their own view.
There are some on here who may be guilty of reading the headline and not doing their own independent delving and research, but please don't tar all of us with same brush. Nothing is ever black and white, and it is important not to go from one extreme to the other and disbelieve everything you come across because you can't or won't handle the current bombardment of bad news.


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The bunch of politicians on both sides we have right now are the worse in my memory that are leading us all down a path of disaster, the choice is which one takes us there slower and whilst some lap up half baked reports headlines memes nothing will change. What we should be screaming for right now is in the words of the Boss a saviour to rise from these streets. For as sure as eggs are eggs unless a politician that can kick some sense back into government emerges in the very near future I despair for the long term future.
There is no political messiah out there waiting in the wings. We get the government we deserve, the government voted in by those who don't do the research and don't think for themselves. If and when we get a majority within the electorate that actually does do all that stuff, then things may improve, but here is some more bad news for you that you may not be able to handle, that ain't gonna happen.
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  #62  
Old 17-11-2017, 08:50 AM
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I think enough of us have seen too many spectacular headlines that are not backed up by substance to have the sense not to be taken in by them.

However we also have the sense to draw a distinction between well meaning policy that is badly implemented and policy that targets the vulnerable with deliberate and uncaring intent.

While people choose to dress it, make incompetence the excuse, and spread the blame for that incompetence across all parties, a heartless government iike the one we have now is given the green light to keep dishing out the same bad and corrupt medicine.

Who read posts 2 and 3 on here both shocked but at the same time not in the little bit surprised?
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  #63  
Old 17-11-2017, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
I think enough of us have seen too many spectacular headlines that are not backed up by substance to have the sense not to be taken in by them.

However we also have the sense to draw a distinction between well meaning policy that is badly implemented and policy that targets the vulnerable with deliberate and uncaring intent.

While people choose to dress it, make incompetence the excuse, and spread the blame for that incompetence across all parties, a heartless government iike the one we have now is given the green light to keep dishing out the same bad and corrupt medicine.

Who read posts 2 and 3 on here both shocked but at the same time not in the little bit surprised?
You maybe right though reading some comments on here I doubt it sometimes. Its brought into focus again in say the Grenfell Tower death toll. The police released the final number yesterday which was close to the number they released a week or so after the fire. If you go back the claims were that the number killed was double that it was being covered up to prevent a riot politicians for instance David Lammy and music stars Lilly Allan were guilty. Grenfell should never of happened the death toll at whatever number was a disgrace, but for individuals to inflate it for political point scoring as some did at the time for whatever purpose is a disgrace as well.
My anger is that more and more I am seeing politics being played at the extremes with little regard for the truth. Brexit is another example we know 350million for the NHS was bullshit but its on the bus it must be true. The memes the reports that spring up across my social media bearing little realism but they are being produced because they do influence some.
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  #64  
Old 17-11-2017, 10:39 AM
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Good post.
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  #65  
Old 17-11-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
You maybe right though reading some comments on here I doubt it sometimes. Its brought into focus again in say the Grenfell Tower death toll. The police released the final number yesterday which was close to the number they released a week or so after the fire. If you go back the claims were that the number killed was double that it was being covered up to prevent a riot politicians for instance David Lammy and music stars Lilly Allan were guilty. Grenfell should never of happened the death toll at whatever number was a disgrace, but for individuals to inflate it for political point scoring as some did at the time for whatever purpose is a disgrace as well.
My anger is that more and more I am seeing politics being played at the extremes with little regard for the truth. Brexit is another example we know 350million for the NHS was bullshit but its on the bus it must be true. The memes the reports that spring up across my social media bearing little realism but they are being produced because they do influence some.
While "fake news" is bad wherever it came from, at the same time it is obvious that austerity has, and is, killing lots of people.

From cuts to the NHS, to social services, to mental health services to policies like Universal Credit. I find it strange that someone would focus on whether the exact amount of people killed is in question, but not comment so much on the tragedy of austerity, and seem more angry about the "fake news" than the deaths.

Also to then lazily call Corbyn extreme, when actually he's a fairly bog standard left social democrat, and compare those policies as being as bad as vicious tory austerity. Odd.
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  #66  
Old 17-11-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
While "fake news" is bad wherever it came from, at the same time it is obvious that austerity has, and is, killing lots of people.

From cuts to the NHS, to social services, to mental health services to policies like Universal Credit. I find it strange that someone would focus on whether the exact amount of people killed is in question, but not comment so much on the tragedy of austerity, and seem more angry about the "fake news" than the deaths.

Also to then lazily call Corbyn extreme, when actually he's a fairly bog standard left social democrat, and compare those policies as being as bad as vicious tory austerity. Odd.
You just make my point perfectly..ok take austerity the lack of funding in the services you mentioned...
Which statement is true the lack of money invested has reduced life expectancy as per the report or lack of investment is killing people. I wonder which one will make people read the report get the coverage.
Keep screaming Corbyn is bog standard left still does not make it true.
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  #67  
Old 17-11-2017, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
Osborne cuts were wrong as much a Corbyns spend will be wrong but no, not in this country now days its the extreme.
What policies in the Labour manifesto are extreme and will cause misery like Osborne's cuts and why?
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  #68  
Old 17-11-2017, 11:17 AM
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What policies in the Labour manifesto are extreme and will cause misery like Osborne's cuts and why?
The 500 billion investment the nationalisation of whatever industry is flavour of the month.
Printing money is not the answer this wonderful free money does not exist it comes at a cost, the short and long term cost will potentially cause as much misery as Osbornes.
I have said that I believe there is another way which takes on both Osbornes and Corbyns view. I still say it works......
So answer this which country if any has adopted Corbyns approach and what has been the result, why are you so convinced he has the right answer ?
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Old 17-11-2017, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
The 500 billion investment the nationalisation of whatever industry is flavour of the month.
Printing money is not the answer this wonderful free money does not exist it comes at a cost, the short and long term cost will potentially cause as much misery as Osbornes.
I have said that I believe there is another way which takes on both Osbornes and Corbyns view. I still say it works......
So answer this which country if any has adopted Corbyns approach and what has been the result, why are you so convinced he has the right answer ?
No country has adopted the approach that Corbyn wants or that the Labour manifesto set out.Some argue Venezuela but I'm sure there are some major differences in ideology,although my knowledge of Venezuelan politics is extremely limited.

As for nationalisation I think that is one of the major positives of Labour's approach.A number of the currently privatised industries in this country are expensive,being propped up by the taxpayer anyway with profits going to a select group of wealthy individuals and,a prime example of this being the railways,are not working.Nationalisation will mean railways,the postal service etc. running more efficiently,make it cheaper for customers and save the taxpayer a fortune.
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  #70  
Old 17-11-2017, 12:06 PM
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N Herts Eagle is correct. It is about prioratisation and IMHO neither New Labour or the Tories had this right. Even now the parties including Corbynite Labour and the trade unions are still too focussed on middle class interests rather than those at the bottom.
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  #71  
Old 17-11-2017, 03:16 PM
N Herts Eagle N Herts Eagle is offline
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No country has adopted the approach that Corbyn wants or that the Labour manifesto set out.Some argue Venezuela but I'm sure there are some major differences in ideology,although my knowledge of Venezuelan politics is extremely limited.

As for nationalisation I think that is one of the major positives of Labour's approach.A number of the currently privatised industries in this country are expensive,being propped up by the taxpayer anyway with profits going to a select group of wealthy individuals and,a prime example of this being the railways,are not working.Nationalisation will mean railways,the postal service etc. running more efficiently,make it cheaper for customers and save the taxpayer a fortune.
There are policies that Corbyn has come up with that I would support enacted individually. From agreeing with you here on nationalisation, to an investment bank just not so much , plus I want more money in the NHS, more money on social housing, free education, social care, better jobs an end to zero hours contracts etc
However to achieve it the prioritisation needs to be sorted, and just as importantly funding. It falls apart at the point and the potential to crash the economy to a state worse than 2007 is possible. Worse I feel he risks tearing the very fabric of our society apart be by creating divisions within it.
Its not helped when I look a some of the wider aspects of Labour policies under Corbyn such as Brexit or defence. Add to that the rise of a racist left , the use of hate politics, or the politics of hate through envy and I personally cannot support Labour.

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  #72  
Old 17-11-2017, 03:23 PM
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You just make my point perfectly..ok take austerity the lack of funding in the services you mentioned...
Which statement is true the lack of money invested has reduced life expectancy as per the report or lack of investment is killing people. I wonder which one will make people read the report get the coverage.
Keep screaming Corbyn is bog standard left still does not make it true.
I think you've entirely missed my point but there you go. You still seem to want to concentrate on pedantics rather than austerity killing tens of thousands at a minimum and ruining many more lives short of killing them. Indeed many of my loved ones have had their lives ruined by austerity.

As for what is bog standard left, obviously that depends on your starting point. But Corbyn's views and manifesto are far less radical than Labour manifestos in the past including 1945 and 1983.
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  #73  
Old 17-11-2017, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
The 500 billion investment the nationalisation of whatever industry is flavour of the month.
Printing money is not the answer this wonderful free money does not exist it comes at a cost, the short and long term cost will potentially cause as much misery as Osbornes.
I have said that I believe there is another way which takes on both Osbornes and Corbyns view. I still say it works......
So answer this which country if any has adopted Corbyns approach and what has been the result, why are you so convinced he has the right answer ?
Scandinavian social democracy for a start.

Given the 1000 richest people have tripled their wealth to over 600 billion since the start of austerity, and that's just the richest 1000, there is clearly a lot of money out there.

As for you not supporting Labour. A shame. But 46% of people do in the polls.
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  #74  
Old 17-11-2017, 03:31 PM
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Or of course, you could just be wrong.
Or, amazingly , you could.
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  #75  
Old 17-11-2017, 03:33 PM
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If I went round with a gun and shot 120,000 people would you be as forgiving?
What a question. You've got me there. Well done.
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Old 17-11-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by N Herts Eagle View Post
The 500 billion investment the nationalisation of whatever industry is flavour of the month.
Printing money is not the answer this wonderful free money does not exist it comes at a cost, the short and long term cost will potentially cause as much misery as Osbornes.
I have said that I believe there is another way which takes on both Osbornes and Corbyns view. I still say it works......
So answer this which country if any has adopted Corbyns approach and what has been the result, why are you so convinced he has the right answer ?
The 500bn is a figure for infrastructure investing - this includes 1 million homes to be built and the renationalisation of the utilities and the potential termination of PFI projects. Why does that cause the same misery as austerity - please explain?

Money can be created without borrowing - this is called QE for the people. A national infrstructure bank would issue 0 interest coupon bonds to the Bank of England who then creates the cash (digitally) to provide the money.

Much in the same way that 475bn was created for banks and the private financial institutions for their government bonds.
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Old 17-11-2017, 03:39 PM
N Herts Eagle N Herts Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by cdm61 View Post
The 500bn is a figure for infrastructure investing - this includes 1 million homes to be built and the renationalisation of the utilities and the potential termination of PFI projects. Why does that cause misery as austerity - please explain?

Money can be created without borrowing - this is called QE for the people. A national infrstructure bank would issue 0 interest coupon bonds to the Bank of England who then creates the cash (digitally) to provide the money.

Much in the same way that 475bn was created for banks and the private financial institutions for their government bonds.
Ok 475bn of printed free money saved the banks , why then have we been through austerity to pay for it ?
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Old 17-11-2017, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Nth Kent Eagle View Post
N Herts Eagle is correct. It is about prioratisation and IMHO neither New Labour or the Tories had this right. Even now the parties including Corbynite Labour and the trade unions are still too focussed on middle class interests rather than those at the bottom.
No he is not. And Labour and unions are not focused on the middle class. The opposite in fact - that's why the manifesto committed to brining back utitilies and PFI into public administration. Due to the excessive drain they are on the public purse and the inflated prices charged to people on low incomes.
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Old 17-11-2017, 03:43 PM
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Ok 475bn of printed free money saved the banks , why then have we been through austerity to pay for it ?
We aren't paying for QE that is free money. No borrowing and interest payments are due on it. In fact its saved the government interest payments on the bonds the Bank purchased.

Austerity is politically driven - with the myth that Labour over spent. And it is being used to restructure public services and the welfare state. With the end result people have less money, poor quality public services and then die.
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Old 17-11-2017, 03:46 PM
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What is quantitative easing?
Quantitative easing (QE) is when a central bank, like the Bank of England, creates money and uses it to buy financial assets – mostly gilts (government debt) – from businesses like pension funds. We also buy a smaller amount of corporate bonds.

What is the aim of quantitative easing?
The aim of quantitative easing is to encourage spending, keeping inflation on track to meet the Government’s 2% inflation target.

Does quantitative easing involve printing money?
Quantitative easing doesn’t involve literally printing more money. Instead, we electronically create new central bank reserves – the money that banks use to pay each other – and use this to pay for the assets we buy.

How does quantitative easing work?
When we buy gilts, it pushes up their price and so reduces the yield (the return) that investors make when they buy gilts. This encourages investors to buy other assets with higher yields instead, like corporate bonds and shares. As more of these assets are bought, their prices rise, pushing down borrowing costs for businesses, encouraging them to spend and invest more.

We also buy a smaller amount of corporate bonds, which makes it easier for companies to raise money which they can then invest in their business.

Why was quantitative easing needed in the UK?
Raising and lowering Bank Rate is our main tool for controlling growth. The lower the interest rate, the more people are encouraged to spend rather than save. However, as we have cut interest rates close to zero, quantitative easing is another tool we can use to stimulate the economy when demand is too weak.
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