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General Palace Discussion General Palace talk - please keep transfer talk in the transfer forum.

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  #21  
Old 30-12-2017, 09:30 AM
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The Allison/Venables promotion team was the best. Of course times were different.

Dubbed 'The Team of the 80s' much as Burnley had been similarly labelled in the 70s, nothing came to fruition in those respective decades for either Palace or Burnley. That is the way of dreams and reality.
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Old 30-12-2017, 09:40 AM
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My answer would be No for now as hard to assess until this season is over.

A good start to the top flight campaign saw us 3rd in the table at the beginning of December.

Set up brilliantly for the game dubbed as Team of the seventies v Team of the eighties when we faced Liverpool. The eventual champions were 2nd at the time. They beat us comfortably 3-0 and our season fell apart. We ended up finishing 13th.
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Old 30-12-2017, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
Yet English teams were very successful in Europe, not sure I would agree with your view
But then European teams were no way near as good as they are now. Anyway it's all so subjective. Our team now is so much better than the one of 4 months ago, even though it's the same players. Likewise the team of the 80s lost a few players and were awful in 81. In fact the form of the 79-80 team in the 2nd half of the season was relegation form.
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Old 30-12-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Salad_Burnet View Post
Forgive my ignorance, but I thought the team of the eighties only played one game together: v Barnsley in 1979. Then Terry Venables sold and reassembled it at QPR, all in one pre-season, and they never actually got to play together in the eighties (at Palace, at any rate).
Sorry SB, but that is pretty ignorant on several levels, the first being that Palace and Barnsley were never in the same League for the best part of twenty years between 1964 and 1981 - you meant Burnley!

The ‘Team of the 80’s’ had it’s roots in the great Palace Youth side of the mid to late 1970s - players such as Kenny Sansom (left back), Billy Gilbert and Terry Fenwick (central defenders), Peter Nicholas (defensive midfielder), Jerry Murphy (attacking midfielder), Vince Hilaire (winger) and Ian Walsh (centre forward).

On the fringes of that great side were players such as David Fry (keeper) Neil Banfield (defender), Steve Leahy (midfield), Steve Lovell (striker) and a couple of players that were a bit younger Sean Brooks and Steve Mackenzie both midfielders who were heralded as potentially great too - Mackenzie signed for Man City (by Malcolm Allison!) and featured in their FA Cup Final clashes with Spurs in 1981 - scoring a wonder goal.

Added to that, players such as Paul Hinshelwood, Jim Cannon and David Swindlehurst had been Palace juniors since circa 1970/71 and with the return of Steve Kember in 1978, (a Palace junior since 1963, who had left in 1971 just as players like Cannon, Hinshelwood and Swindlehurst were emerging at youth level - you had a virtually entirely home grown squad by 1978 - the only significant regular non Palace junior was keeper John Burridge, who we signed in Feb 1978 - Paul Hammond had been a regular in goal for Palace between 1973 and 1976, playing in the same youth teams as Cannon, Swindlehurst and Hinshelwood, briefly replaced by Tony Burns for just over a year before Burridge arrived.

To say that the Burnley match, which was played in May 1979, the very last game of the 1978/79 was the only game played by the ‘Team of the 80’s’ is very wide of the mark!

Kenny Sansom was an integral part of the side that gained promotion from Division Three in 1976/77, along with the aforementioned Cannon, Hinshelwood and Swindlehurst, so that’s four of the players, all had played first team games since 1973 (Sansom made his debut as early as 1975!) - you could say they were the nucleus of the fabled ‘team of the 80’s’.

Players such as Gilbert, Nicholas, Hilaire and Walsh and Murphy were all on the fringe on the first team before Palace were promoted from the third tier in 1977 and played quite regularly in both the 1977/78 and 78/79 seasons - off all the players, the first major player to leave was Sansom to Arsenal in the summer of 1980 - which really did herald the decline of the side, but to say that Venables reassembled it at QPR later that year is also quite wrong.

Of the Team of the 80’s - you could only really say Terry Fenwick and John Burridge were genuinely regulars, Gerry Francis and Mike Flanagan both signed after that Burnley match in the summer of 1979 as our ‘stellar’ signings on promotion to the top tier - Tony Sealy was very much a fringe player between 1978-80 having signed from Southampton - very possibly the least outstanding player of the entire 1978/79 squad and that would include the ancient Tony Hazel who we briefly signed as centre half cover!

The last player of the six that defected with Vegtables to QPR was Clive Allen (part of the deal that took Sansom to Arsenal) who very definitely was not part of the team of the 80s, or really any Palace team after largely getting sidelined in the complete disaster that was the 1980/81 season, with four different Palace managers - he eventually got replaced by the incomporable Tommy Langley.


Could I compare the Team of the 80’s to today’s squad? Somebody already questioned Benteke versus Swindlehurst.

Swindlehurst was a very hard working ‘target man’ centre forward in the mould of say Mark Bright, Iain Dowie or Neil Shipperley, but I doubt he was better than them or Benteke, but he did work his socks off for us (missed plenty of sitters though!) alonside scoring 70 goals in around 8 seasons, he went on to Derby and West Ham after being replaced by Ian Walsh, again very commited but I would say Benteke edges him for even now for the quality of his goals at Villa, Liverpool and Palace, Walsh always looked a bit too lightweight in his career at Palace to me.

Of the others, Wilf we have already extensively discussed is on a higher level already to Vince Hilaire, but they were very similar as teenagers in terms of talent but also equally frustrating in their end product, where Zaha is now had and shoulders above Vince.

Burridge would be comforably ahead of Speroni, more imposing, especially at corners and crossing - Jules has razor sharp reflexes, but Burridge was even quicker and braver - only John Jackson and Nigel Martyn can be considered as better in the 47 years I have seen Palace keepers.

Of the defence - along with Burridge, they conceded only 24 goals in 42 games when winning the Second Division Championship in 78/79 - I would comfortably put them all ahead of virtually any Palace back four, possibly in our entire history, so that’s Hinshelwood at right back, Sansom at left back (easily Palace’s greatest full back I have seen), Cannon and Gilbert as centre backs, two of the toughest guys to ever wear the Red and Blue.

Only the 1990/91 defence of Martyn, Humphrey, Shaw, Thorn and Young would challenge them, but the difference for me was that the Palace side of 78/79 could all play great passing football, the 90/91 side was far more direct and physical.

Honestly, Sakho, Tomkins and Dann are not on the same level either physically or skill wise - don’t even get me started on the full backs - the current crop would not be allowed near the Palace dressing rooms in 79 or 91!

Midfield, Cabaye over Murphy all day long - but defensively, Peter Nicholas should be in the Palace Hall of fame - think Sean Derry, Michael Huges, Mile Jedinak, Luka Milovejevic - Nicholas for me over them all.

I get the feeling that players like Loftus Cheek and Andros Townsend would slot very well into the ball playing team of the 80s - almost an upgrade on Murphy and Hilaire, who could be frustrating and brilliant in equal measure.

Tactically, I hate to say it, Venables was probably the best coach ( and also the biggest spiv) Palace have ever had - I have heard that Roy Hodgson was quite a regular visitor to the Palace training ground at Mitcham in the mid 70’s - picking up tips from the early days of that team of the 80’s, I think I should add that people such as Arnie Warren and John Cartwright as well as Malcolm Allison had a massive input into forming the ‘Team of the 80s’ more so than Venables, who largely got to cash in on the groundwork those guys put into creating probably the best home grown squad Palace will ever have.
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  #25  
Old 30-12-2017, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Percy Dalton View Post
Yet English teams were very successful in Europe, not sure I would agree with your view
Just an opinion, but I always felt the success of the dominant teams I grew up watching was because the sum was greater than the parts - even though some of the parts were excellent!

First there was the Liverpool team, that picked up relatively unknown players like Ian Rush and Alan Hansen, and turned them into world beaters, mixing those kind of shrewd signings with a marquee signing or two like Dalglish, Barnes, and Beardsley.

Then there was the George Graham Arsenal side, with home grown talent together with some steady, unspectacular signings like Perry Groves, Lee Dixon and Steve Bould.

Followed by Manchester United, who made some expensive signings but it wasn't until they found a core of young home grown talent that they truly found success.

The key to the success of these teams, to me, came as much from their team ethos as it did to the often considerable individual talent involved.

The modern teams now seem much more expensively assembled, 'plug and play' sides. If I were an Arsenal, Liverpool, or Man Utd fan, I'd kill to rediscover that old formula, regardless of what expensive 'world class' signings are paraded in front of me every week.
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Old 30-12-2017, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by CP Satellite View Post
Sorry SB, but that is pretty ignorant on several levels, the first being that Palace and Barnsley were never in the same League for the best part of twenty years between 1964 and 1981 - you meant Burnley!

The ‘Team of the 80’s’ had it’s roots in the great Palace Youth side of the mid to late 1970s - players such as Kenny Sansom (left back), Billy Gilbert and Terry Fenwick (central defenders), Peter Nicholas (defensive midfielder), Jerry Murphy (attacking midfielder), Vince Hilaire (winger) and Ian Walsh (centre forward).

On the fringes of that great side were players such as David Fry (keeper) Neil Banfield (defender), Steve Leahy (midfield), Steve Lovell (striker) and a couple of players that were a bit younger Sean Brooks and Steve Mackenzie both midfielders who were heralded as potentially great too - Mackenzie signed for Man City (by Malcolm Allison!) and featured in their FA Cup Final clashes with Spurs in 1981 - scoring a wonder goal.

Added to that, players such as Paul Hinshelwood, Jim Cannon and David Swindlehurst had been Palace juniors since circa 1970/71 and with the return of Steve Kember in 1978, (a Palace junior since 1963, who had left in 1971 just as players like Cannon, Hinshelwood and Swindlehurst were emerging at youth level - you had a virtually entirely home grown squad by 1978 - the only significant regular non Palace junior was keeper John Burridge, who we signed in Feb 1978 - Paul Hammond had been a regular in goal for Palace between 1973 and 1976, playing in the same youth teams as Cannon, Swindlehurst and Hinshelwood, briefly replaced by Tony Burns for just over a year before Burridge arrived.

To say that the Burnley match, which was played in May 1979, the very last game of the 1978/79 was the only game played by the ‘Team of the 80’s’ is very wide of the mark!

Kenny Sansom was an integral part of the side that gained promotion from Division Three in 1976/77, along with the aforementioned Cannon, Hinshelwood and Swindlehurst, so that’s four of the players, all had played first team games since 1973 (Sansom made his debut as early as 1975!) - you could say they were the nucleus of the fabled ‘team of the 80’s’.

Players such as Gilbert, Nicholas, Hilaire and Walsh and Murphy were all on the fringe on the first team before Palace were promoted from the third tier in 1977 and played quite regularly in both the 1977/78 and 78/79 seasons - off all the players, the first major player to leave was Sansom to Arsenal in the summer of 1980 - which really did herald the decline of the side, but to say that Venables reassembled it at QPR later that year is also quite wrong.

Of the Team of the 80’s - you could only really say Terry Fenwick and John Burridge were genuinely regulars, Gerry Francis and Mike Flanagan both signed after that Burnley match in the summer of 1979 as our ‘stellar’ signings on promotion to the top tier - Tony Sealy was very much a fringe player between 1978-80 having signed from Southampton - very possibly the least outstanding player of the entire 1978/79 squad and that would include the ancient Tony Hazel who we briefly signed as centre half cover!

The last player of the six that defected with Vegtables to QPR was Clive Allen (part of the deal that took Sansom to Arsenal) who very definitely was not part of the team of the 80s, or really any Palace team after largely getting sidelined in the complete disaster that was the 1980/81 season, with four different Palace managers - he eventually got replaced by the incomporable Tommy Langley.


Could I compare the Team of the 80’s to today’s squad? Somebody already questioned Benteke versus Swindlehurst.

Swindlehurst was a very hard working ‘target man’ centre forward in the mould of say Mark Bright, Iain Dowie or Neil Shipperley, but I doubt he was better than them or Benteke, but he did work his socks off for us (missed plenty of sitters though!) alonside scoring 70 goals in around 8 seasons, he went on to Derby and West Ham after being replaced by Ian Walsh, again very commited but I would say Benteke edges him for even now for the quality of his goals at Villa, Liverpool and Palace, Walsh always looked a bit too lightweight in his career at Palace to me.

Of the others, Wilf we have already extensively discussed is on a higher level already to Vince Hilaire, but they were very similar as teenagers in terms of talent but also equally frustrating in their end product, where Zaha is now had and shoulders above Vince.

Burridge would be comforably ahead of Speroni, more imposing, especially at corners and crossing - Jules has razor sharp reflexes, but Burridge was even quicker and braver - only John Jackson and Nigel Martyn can be considered as better in the 47 years I have seen Palace keepers.

Of the defence - along with Burridge, they conceded only 24 goals in 42 games when winning the Second Division Championship in 78/79 - I would comfortably put them all ahead of virtually any Palace back four, possibly in our entire history, so that’s Hinshelwood at right back, Sansom at left back (easily Palace’s greatest full back I have seen), Cannon and Gilbert as centre backs, two of the toughest guys to ever wear the Red and Blue.

Only the 1990/91 defence of Martyn, Humphrey, Shaw, Thorn and Young would challenge them, but the difference for me was that the Palace side of 78/79 could all play great passing football, the 90/91 side was far more direct and physical.

Honestly, Sakho, Tomkins and Dann are not on the same level either physically or skill wise - don’t even get me started on the full backs - the current crop would not be allowed near the Palace dressing rooms in 79 or 91!

Midfield, Cabaye over Murphy all day long - but defensively, Peter Nicholas should be in the Palace Hall of fame - think Sean Derry, Michael Huges, Mile Jedinak, Luka Milovejevic - Nicholas for me over them all.

I get the feeling that players like Loftus Cheek and Andros Townsend would slot very well into the ball playing team of the 80s - almost an upgrade on Murphy and Hilaire, who could be frustrating and brilliant in equal measure.

Tactically, I hate to say it, Venables was probably the best coach ( and also the biggest spiv) Palace have ever had - I have heard that Roy Hodgson was quite a regular visitor to the Palace training ground at Mitcham in the mid 70’s - picking up tips from the early days of that team of the 80’s, I think I should add that people such as Arnie Warren and John Cartwright as well as Malcolm Allison had a massive input into forming the ‘Team of the 80s’ more so than Venables, who largely got to cash in on the groundwork those guys put into creating probably the best home grown squad Palace will ever have.
Thank you for such a comprehensive appraisal of that great Palace team and comparison with not only this one (the subject of the thread) but also commenting on how those players match many of the other notables who followed them (Coppell's Commandos and the likes of Derry, Jedinak and Hughes) It has stirred some wonderful memories in this supporter of many seasons.

The Allison/Venables promotion team was the best I've seen at Selhurst Park and two of that team (Cannon and Sansom) are in my top 5 greatest Palace players of all time.
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Old 30-12-2017, 12:34 PM
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The strange thing, from my point of view, was that the Palace teams assembled by Allison and Venables, even at Third Division level, were genuinely very good footballing sides, I would argure far better than the workmanlike teams I saw under Bert Head in my earliest years watching Palace - certainly better than the ‘route one’ style adopted under Coppell between 1984- to circa 1991 - although his later teams were more expansive - it’s only the period between getting relegated under Allision in 1973 and promotion back to Division One in 1979 as the best ‘footballing’ seasons I can remember watching Palace.

Those teams went toe to toe with the great Leeds team of the mid 70s (Harvey, Bremner, Hunter, Giles, Lorimer, Clarke etc and beat them 1-0 at Elland Road (the same Leeds team that controversially lost 2-1 in the European Cup Final of 1975!).

The following season, (76/77) under Venables, Palace, still in the third tier took on the Liverpool side at Anfield and drew 0-0 (lost the replay 3-2) a side that contained such greats as Clemence, Smith, Hughes, Keegan, Kennedy, Toshack etc - football was a far more
physical game in the 70s and 80s, but the Palace teams of the era could play good stuff (we were also very capable of getting thoroughly embarrased by teams like Halifax, Grimsby, Port Vale and Northampton for balance, but Allison and Venables teams had a reliance on being expansive with midfielders and defenders often interchanging (which sometimes was our undoing) so the football was usually more easy on the eye than later years.

You can’t make a like for like comparison with contemporary football to even 25 years ago - so much has changed, faster tempo, less physical challenges allowed, better playing surfaces, bigger and better quality squads and the influx of better players and coaches has made much of the football that could be best described as ‘agricultural’ largely redundant from what was the norm in the 80s and early 90s.
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Old 30-12-2017, 12:36 PM
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Great post from CP Satellite, and others.
I would add that if Micky Elwiss and Martin Hinshelwood hadn’t both picked up career ending injuries, things might have panned out even better - no need for Flanagan or Francis.
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Old 30-12-2017, 01:55 PM
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Here's the game before the Burnley one. It does back up CP Satellites point about our passing game, Sansom and Hilaire are obvious stand out players but surprised how good Gilbert looked. 2nd half was better although Orient put a lot of pressure on. Burridge was like Speroni in not liking to leave his goal line, Jimbo has a go at him for it.

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Old 30-12-2017, 02:05 PM
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The problem comparing now to then is that back then 95% of the players were British. If it was the same now the overall standard of football would be lower than it is, therefore you have to accept it probably wasn't as good back then either (note that back then Ipswich had more foreigners than most teams and were exceptional because of it).

It's like comparing Liverpool of then to Man City (all foreigners) today. Man City would win comfortably.
Not sure that argument applies as obviously as you do. English sides won the European Cup every year between 1976-1982. And Ipswich wasn't one of them.
And Swindlehurst over Benteke.
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Old 30-12-2017, 02:05 PM
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The problem comparing now to then is that back then 95% of the players were British. If it was the same now the overall standard of football would be lower than it is, therefore you have to accept it probably wasn't as good back then either (note that back then Ipswich had more foreigners than most teams and were exceptional because of it).

It's like comparing Liverpool of then to Man City (all foreigners) today. Man City would win comfortably.
It is difficult to compare but I personally think the players in the 70s 80s
Were just as good if not better
Watch the DVD I believe in miracles about the forest side that won back to back European cups and league titles
The football played is superb
You put some of the modern players on a ploughed field and getting tackled from behind I don't think they would fancy it
I don't think the modern players are any better
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Old 30-12-2017, 05:40 PM
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Didn't Villa win the European Cup the following 2 years after Forest won it 2x?

As for Swindlehurst v Benteke... Swindles all day long. I'm biased as he is one of my all time favourites, but as others have said he was a workhorse, and I never felt the frustration I feel week after week with Benteke. Swindles would throw in a few spectacular goals as well as the tap ins and headers. Can you see Benteke doing this:



Oh - and top of the league:

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Old 30-12-2017, 05:53 PM
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Didn't Villa win the European Cup the following 2 years after Forest won it 2x?
Well I got that all wrong... I just looked it up and it went between 77 and 82:
Liverpool
Liverpool
Forest
Forest
Liverpool
Villa

That was quite a run, currently being repeated by Spanish teams.
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Old 30-12-2017, 07:11 PM
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With no winter break ,limited substitutions,and smaller squads
Don't believe the hype.
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Old 30-12-2017, 07:30 PM
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The Team Of The Eighties was exactly that, they played as a team, they understood one another and everybody knew their positions. You'd struggle to find a single weak link.

The current side is a collection of thrown together players. Only a couple give the impression that they play for the team, only Zaha sweats blood for the cause, whilst many look like they are going through the motions and picking up a handsome wage cheque each week. They know that if we go down, they'll not be playing in the Championship and will continue to steal a living. The Geoff Thomas side was better than the team of the 80s, in my opinion and far better than this current motley crew.
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Old 30-12-2017, 07:49 PM
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These comparisons are always tricky through the mists of time but I think the key part of the question is the word "team". I was privileged to be able to watch those young men who went from Youth Cup winners to Div 2 winners and they, together with the additions made, were certainly the best "team" I have seen at the Palace. In terms of individuals I would say that there would be little to chose between Doris and Ward and the latter could probably have fitted in well to that side. Sansom, Gilbert and Cannon on the other hand were streets ahead as a unit to anything we have today although the chances are that you'd get 3-4 sending offs apiece for the big men in today's game. Burridge over Jules, but not by a huge amount, just on his presence. In the middle, I was always a fan of Chatterton, similar to Jimmy Mac but with a bit more composure. However, Kember's return just linked it all together and his contribution is sometimes under-rated. I think Cabaye could have performed a similar mentoring role. Peter Nicholas was immense and if you wanted someone in the trenches with you, he was your man. Murphy over Townsend for me. Although Townsend works harder (most of the time), Murph had a football brain and was a better craftsman. Swindles reminds me of Murray (or should I say the other way around) a grafter for the team and Ian Walsh (after the loss of Mike Elwiss) was the perfect partner for him.

And so to Vince. As much as I loved to watch him, Wilf would have walked into that side - providing he toed the line with the rest of the boys because they allowed no passengers. They were a team and what a team!. They always made me proud.
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Old 30-12-2017, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dowieslovechild View Post
The Team Of The Eighties was exactly that, they played as a team, they understood one another and everybody knew their positions. You'd struggle to find a single weak link.

The current side is a collection of thrown together players. Only a couple give the impression that they play for the team, only Zaha sweats blood for the cause, whilst many look like they are going through the motions and picking up a handsome wage cheque each week. They know that if we go down, they'll not be playing in the Championship and will continue to steal a living. The Geoff Thomas side was better than the team of the 80s, in my opinion and far better than this current motley crew.
Whilst Cabaye is a quality player, he can only play half a match.

I feel very sorry for Zaha. He cares and has consistently been Palace's best hope for the last 3 seasons. Deserves much better. Shame for him and most likely for us too.
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Old 30-12-2017, 08:27 PM
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Whilst Cabaye is a quality player, he can only play half a match.

I feel very sorry for Zaha. He cares and has consistently been Palace's best hope for the last 3 seasons. Deserves much better. Shame for him and most likely for us too.
Cabaye, Wilf, Sakho, Townsend, Benteke (playing for a different side) and Loftus-Cheek are all quality players, but the rest are at best good Championship level players, or are injury prone, hence our positioning in the league.
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Old 30-12-2017, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dowieslovechild View Post
The Team Of The Eighties was exactly that, they played as a team, they understood one another and everybody knew their positions. You'd struggle to find a single weak link.

The current side is a collection of thrown together players. Only a couple give the impression that they play for the team, only Zaha sweats blood for the cause, whilst many look like they are going through the motions and picking up a handsome wage cheque each week. They know that if we go down, they'll not be playing in the Championship and will continue to steal a living. The Geoff Thomas side was better than the team of the 80s, in my opinion and far better than this current motley crew.
I'm not sure I can agree with that. The team of the 80s finished 13th then half of them buggered off in the summer of 1980, although admittedly this had a lot to do with Bloye shafting us.

I'd agree we have had a few hangers on but you can't stay in this division for 5 seasons just going through the motions, and it was something the 80s team didn't even get close to achieving. The late 70s was clearly a really exciting time to be a Palace fan and the team was clearly one of the best we've ever had but it is a bit too easy to look back at that time with misty eyes blurring what really happened.
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Old 30-12-2017, 09:35 PM
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Excuse me but I always post this when a discussion on the team of the 80’s comes up, but it’s a truely remarkable stat:

Their ages at the start of our promotion winning season in 78/79:

Burridge 26
Hinshelwood 22
Sansom 19
Gilbert 18
Cannon 24
Murphy 18
Nicholas 18
Kember 29
Walsh 19
Swindelhurst 22
Hilaire 18
Fenwick 18
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