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  #281  
Old 05-02-2018, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bubbs11 View Post
That’s what I’ve been thinking but would they consider the Lovren pass deliberate so seen as a second phase thing? I qualified as a ref many moons ago and the rules were a lot more black and white back then. Totally confuse me now.

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But he was offside when the first ball was played, and interfering with play IMO - I’m confused as well on that part!
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  #282  
Old 05-02-2018, 11:06 PM
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So NFL fans are debating some of the calls during the Superbowl, despite VAR and a lot more practice and umpteen officials.

Sort of works in the NFL due to the stop start nature of the sport, and they still can't make a conclusive decision if the call goes against you.
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  #283  
Old 05-02-2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 917L View Post
I still want someone to explain what Lovren has to do with it

The ball was a direct pass to Kane, and he was offside the moment it was played.
You just need to look up FA Laws of the Game offside and read on.

In summary it's because Kane didn't do anything when Alli kicked the ball forward, even though he was standing in an offside position. This is where the active part comes into significance as anyone can stand in an offside position and it's not necessarily an offence against the offside law. If Lovren hadn't touched the ball, and then Kane still did what he did and score, Kane would have been active in an offside position and the goal wouldn't have stood. As people have said, it's because Lovren deliberately (although miskickingly) played the ball, that suddenly Kane was onside. Had Kane gone to challenge Lovren for the ball, a free kick would have given against Kane for offside. I sort of can't believe that this situation was one that was envisaged when the law makers were writing it down, but then again having reread it several times now, the law does make sense. The Salah first goal was a good example of someone being in an offside position, but not breaking the offside law, purely because the defending player kicked the ball to him.

I said in summary but.........................
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  #284  
Old 05-02-2018, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FourtyTwo View Post
But he was offside when the first ball was played, and interfering with play IMO - I’m confused as well on that part!
No, that's the point - he wasn't interfering with play when the ball was first kicked. According to the laws, you have to be challenging for the ball or getting in the way of the defender's sight lines to be active. That's why linos can't raise the flag until the player in the offside position interferes with the defending player by challenging or kicking the ball.

And, with respect, IMO doesn't matter.
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  #285  
Old 06-02-2018, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
No, that's the point - he wasn't interfering with play when the ball was first kicked. According to the laws, you have to be challenging for the ball or getting in the way of the defender's sight lines to be active. That's why linos can't raise the flag until the player in the offside position interferes with the defending player by challenging or kicking the ball.

And, with respect, IMO doesn't matter.
Having read the law on offside I can't agree with you. The law is very confusing anyway. So much so I found myself agreeing with Clattenburg on This and feel dirty now. There is no way Kane can be deemed not interfering with play primarily because of where he is and the intended pass. The law is when the ball is played. When it was played by Alli he was offside. Same way as a player coming back 10-15 yard in to his own half is called offside when he was offside when ball was originally played. It does not make sense any more and if it doesn't make sense it needs to be rewritten.
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  #286  
Old 06-02-2018, 01:52 PM
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It's offside because he was in an offside position when the ball was played forward by Ali and gained an advantage from being in that position. If Ali had shot and the keeper saved with the ball then going to Kane he would have been given offside. It's the same thing really because the ball would have last been played by a Liverpool player but he would have been given offside.
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  #287  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair View Post
Having read the law on offside I can't agree with you. The law is very confusing anyway. So much so I found myself agreeing with Clattenburg on This and feel dirty now. There is no way Kane can be deemed not interfering with play primarily because of where he is and the intended pass. The law is when the ball is played. ....
But that is the point. Its all about the definition of 'interfering' with play. The guidance is pretty specific - 'interfering with play' means playing or touching the ball. But it does of course recognise other issues, so they are also judged to be offside if they interfering with an opponent; tackling them, obstructing the defender's line of vision or making movements which 'deceives or distracts the defender.

Now for me it is the last point - if the player standing in the offside position (but not actually offside) starts making a secondary run towards the flight of the ball, that could be deemed to influence the defender, hence you see players standing still for instance.

People need to untangle the idea of being IN an offside position and actually BEING offside. I get it all the time if I have to step in and ref on a Sunday.

It was all to encourage positive attacking play, but probably just makes it a bit of a mess.
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  #288  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Lombardo's hair View Post
Having read the law on offside I can't agree with you. The law is very confusing anyway. So much so I found myself agreeing with Clattenburg on This and feel dirty now. There is no way Kane can be deemed not interfering with play primarily because of where he is and the intended pass. The law is when the ball is played. When it was played by Alli he was offside. Same way as a player coming back 10-15 yard in to his own half is called offside when he was offside when ball was originally played. It does not make sense any more and if it doesn't make sense it needs to be rewritten.
I agree that the law is very confusing and I also agree that Kane can’t be not interfering with play, bearing in mind where he was, and therefore it should be offside – but, and it’s a very big but, what Kane did, did not fall foul of the offside law, which is why it was not given offside and is why the refs assoc has agreed with the decision. I don’t know what Clattenburg said, as I’m not interested in that buffoon, but if he said it was offside, according to the law, then he is wrong.

The relevant parts of the law are copied below. I’ve added numbers to the law for simplicity. In Kane’s situation, we can all agree he was in an offside position.

Looking under ‘offside offence’, Kane does not do anything that is an offence under numbers 1 to 9 or 11 or 12. Under number 10, Lovren deliberately played the ball and therefore Kane cannot be guilty of an offside offence.

In summary, although Kane was in an offside position when Alli kicked it, he didn’t commit an offence under the offside law and therefore, because of Number 10, Kane wasn’t offside. Had Lovren not deliberately kicked the ball, Kane would have been guilty of an offside offence.

Personally, I feel that Lovren was put off by the very fact that Kane was behind him and that that should be an offside offence, but Kane didn’t actively interfere with Lovren so, under the law, Kane wasn’t guilty of an offence – however mad that sounds.


Offside position
It is not an offence to be in an offside position.

A player is in an offside position if:

• any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
• any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent
• The hands and arms of all players, including the goalkeepers, are not considered.

A player is not in an offside position if level with the:

• second-last opponent or
• last two opponents

Offside offence
A player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by:

• 1. interfering with play by playing or touching a ball passed or touched by a team-mate

• or

• 2. interfering with an opponent by:

• 3. preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or

• 4. challenging an opponent for the ball or

• 5. clearly attempting to play a ball which is close to him when this action impacts on an opponent or

• 6. making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball

or

• 7. gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:

• 8. rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar or an opponent

• 9. been deliberately saved by any opponent.

• 10. A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.

A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands/arms (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

11. In situations where:

• 12. a player moving from, or standing in, an offside position is in the way of an opponent and interferes with the movement of the opponent towards the ball this is an offside offence if it impacts on the ability of the opponent to play or challenge for the ball; if the player moves into the way of an opponent and impedes the opponent's progress (e.g blocks the opponent) the offence should be penalised under Law 12
• a player in an offisde position is moving towards the ball with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred before the offside offence
• an offence is committed against a player in an offside position who is already playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the offside offence is penalised as it has occurred before the foul challenge
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  #289  
Old 06-02-2018, 02:48 PM
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If the law says that Kane wasn’t interfering with play there, the law is crazy.

If Kane isn’t standing there, Lovren has 3 options:

Hoof it out first time, like he woefully tried to do.
Control the ball and make a decision on what to do next.
Leave it for the keeper to collect.

Because of where Kane was, those last two don’t become viable options so I think it’s totally mental if the law genuinely says Kane was not interfering with play. In the normal sense of the word interfering, Kane was absolutely doing so.
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  #290  
Old 06-02-2018, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Thunderwing View Post
It's offside because he was in an offside position when the ball was played forward by Ali and gained an advantage from being in that position. If Ali had shot and the keeper saved with the ball then going to Kane he would have been given offside. It's the same thing really because the ball would have last been played by a Liverpool player but he would have been given offside.
Your first sentence is partially true, he was in an offside position (but it is not against the law to be in an offside position) and he did gain an advantage, but the advantage gained was not one that is classed as an offence in the law. Your second sentence is true and he would have been given offside.

It doesn't seem right that the inability of Lovren to kick the ball properly should allow Kane to take advantage but then again, Salah took advantage of being in an offside position for the first goal when Dier couldn't kick the ball properly and put him clean through. It is what it is.
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  #291  
Old 06-02-2018, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cpfc4evandeva View Post
If the law says that Kane wasn’t interfering with play there, the law is crazy.

....
And also because linesmen are told not to flag till they are interfering, defenders are not too sure if they would be adjudged offside, if they for instance let the ball go and let the goalie get it.

Yet that is the law and the advice given to refs.

I had it the other week, where a ball was played through to a player standing offside. He made no movement towards it at all, even holding his hands up a bit. He wasn't near our defender yet the whole defence stopped, shouting for offside (as were parents). A quick thinking midfielder of theirs ran through got the ball and scored. I have reminded parents of the law and how their shouts can confuse players!

Generally speaking, the law now works moderately well. Unless we want to return to the old, if you are offside you are offside, which brings many anomalies itself.
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  #292  
Old 06-02-2018, 03:22 PM
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And also because linesmen are told not to flag till they are interfering, defenders are not too sure if they would be adjudged offside, if they for instance let the ball go and let the goalie get it.

Yet that is the law and the advice given to refs.

I had it the other week, where a ball was played through to a player standing offside. He made no movement towards it at all, even holding his hands up a bit. He wasn't near our defender yet the whole defence stopped, shouting for offside (as were parents). A quick thinking midfielder of theirs ran through got the ball and scored. I have reminded parents of the law and how their shouts can confuse players!

Generally speaking, the law now works moderately well. Unless we want to return to the old, if you are offside you are offside, which brings many anomalies itself.
I can't work out if you think linos should be raising their flag straight away? The linos can't be raising flags just because any old Tom, Dick or Harry Kane is standing in an offside position, as they've yet to cause an offence. That would be like a ref blowing up for a foul every time Mark Dennis or Luka looked like he might be about to make a tackle.

Congratulations on your superb officiating at your junior game BTW. We still struggle on how to throw in correctly.
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  #293  
Old 06-02-2018, 03:37 PM
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I can't work out if you think linos should be raising their flag straight away? The linos can't be raising flags just because any old Tom, Dick or Harry Kane is standing in an offside position, as they've yet to cause an offence. That would be like a ref blowing up for a foul every time Mark Dennis or Luka looked like he might be about to make a tackle.

Congratulations on your superb officiating at your junior game BTW. We still struggle on how to throw in correctly.
Oh no. The lino can't be flagging. My point was more that makes the defenders job at decision making hard.

Perhaps we should just expect a well paid professional football players not to ******* miskick a ball Not an issue then .
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  #294  
Old 09-02-2018, 09:30 PM
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  #295  
Old 09-02-2018, 09:50 PM
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All the above arguments tells me is that the active/inactive distinction is a stupid idea and we need to go back to relying on where players are when the ball is played.
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  #296  
Old 09-02-2018, 10:30 PM
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It is a complete shambles the Goalline Technology addition is great and very reliable and doesn't hold up the game.

With VAR it still comes down to someone's opinion which could differ from person to person.

The crowd is unaware of what is going on and holds up play. Tonight's Penalty reversal was unbelievable in the Fiorentina game. Ball on the spot for 3 minutes and the ref changes his mind to award a free kick for offside!

Don't like seeing more ex refs like Graham Poll in a tv studio getting work commenting on decisions being made.

The refs decision should be final and will still be debated after the game which still happens now VAR has been introduced.
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Old 09-02-2018, 11:18 PM
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  #298  
Old 09-02-2018, 11:26 PM
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It is a complete shambles the Goalline Technology addition is great and very reliable and doesn't hold up the game.

With VAR it still comes down to someone's opinion which could differ from person to person.

The crowd is unaware of what is going on and holds up play. Tonight's Penalty reversal was unbelievable in the Fiorentina game. Ball on the spot for 3 minutes and the ref changes his mind to award a free kick for offside!

Don't like seeing more ex refs like Graham Poll in a tv studio getting work commenting on decisions being made.

The refs decision should be final and will still be debated after the game which still happens now VAR has been introduced.
But VAR doesn't just come to one person's decision though does it? In the situation you've highlighted it is a fact whether the player is offside or not. It is not opinion. VAR gives the correct decision which is what we all want isn't it? The fact it took so long and the crowd were not informed of the incident is something to be worked on but the correct decision was made.
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Old 10-02-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
But VAR doesn't just come to one person's decision though does it? In the situation you've highlighted it is a fact whether the player is offside or not. It is not opinion. VAR gives the correct decision which is what we all want isn't it? The fact it took so long and the crowd were not informed of the incident is something to be worked on but the correct decision was made.
Its an opinion if it was a penalty/dive/red card

And whilst offside is supposed to be a matter of fact, I guarantee that dozens of players will be given offside before the season is over when in identical positions to Kanes last week, and no one will bat an eyelid
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Old 10-02-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 917L View Post
Its an opinion if it was a penalty/dive/red card

And whilst offside is supposed to be a matter of fact, I guarantee that dozens of players will be given offside before the season is over when in identical positions to Kanes last week, and no one will bat an eyelid
Just to confirm. My response was on the offside which is a matter of fact. I'd agree that there will be lots of incorrect offsides given which, with the use of VAR, will give more advantage to defenders.

But, VAR will only add to getting key decisions right. And it is still on the opinion of the ref. He has the overall say.
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