Home | Forums | Gallery | Twitter
 
CPFC BBS  

Go Back   CPFC BBS Off Topic General Chit Chat

Notices

General Chit Chat Off topic conversations. Please do not post CPFC or sport related threads here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:07 AM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 18,893
Rep Power: 21474855
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
The NHS has finally crashed

To view the link you have to Register or Login

Hunt, promoted by May in her re-shuffle, has now managed to manipulate the NHS into the shape he needed to argue for his favoured private insurance schemes. Perhaps he will succeed.
__________________
"Brexit is a populist and nationalist spasm worthy of Donald Trump" - Lord Adonis December 2017
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:14 AM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lewisham
Posts: 10,273
Rep Power: 21474850
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Yeap a Tory government in all its glory. But heh, the super rich are doing better than ever.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:48 AM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stirling
Age: 57
Posts: 30,375
Rep Power: 21474845
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
An extra 350M a week heading its way fairly soon will save our NHS.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:55 AM
Biggineagle's Avatar
Biggineagle Biggineagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Proud Coney Hall Village Inhabitant.
Posts: 37,361
Rep Power: 21474847
Biggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is here
I blame Labour and PFI. I also blame health tourists and 300000 people a year coming into the UK, nursing agency charges, and the Tories too.
__________________
London is lost. Cheers Khan. Go NOW
Do not be afraid of being outnumbered. A lion walks alone while the sheep flock together and bleat. !!
A Good Old Fashioned Palace Supporter since 1963

Tis but a stale sterile far left / liberal echo chamber
"WE LEAVE THE EU MARCH 2019"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/125px-Flag_of_England.svg.png

Last edited by Biggineagle; 11-01-2018 at 12:17 PM. Reason: added
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:55 AM
Windsor_Eagle's Avatar
Windsor_Eagle Windsor_Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ascot
Posts: 12,787
Rep Power: 21474843
Windsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is here
NHS has been doomed to failure in its current guise for a bloody long time.

Party politics is EXACTLY the reason that no meaningful, effective reform has been done on it to prevent this problem. Too much short-term politicking and ground-grabbing and not enough coherent thought to what it needs.

The word 'private' has been emotively mocked to make it something that the public won't tolerate yet one just has to scratch the surface to see that the introduction of private enterprise within a national health service where risk remains collectivised (rather than individual) is entirely possible. Our NHS ranks as between 20th and 28th in the context of world health systems. Virtually all those that do better have a public-private hybrid with universal access free to the service user. Something we should be taking a long hard look at and exploring how other nations manage to make it work.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-01-2018, 11:58 AM
Kidofwonder Kidofwonder is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Age: 26
Posts: 12,830
Rep Power: 21474845
Kidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is hereKidofwonder Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windsor_Eagle View Post
NHS has been doomed to failure in its current guise for a bloody long time.

Party politics is EXACTLY the reason that no meaningful, effective reform has been done on it to prevent this problem. Too much short-term politicking and ground-grabbing and not enough coherent thought to what it needs.

The word 'private' has been emotively mocked to make it something that the public won't tolerate yet one just has to scratch the surface to see that the introduction of private enterprise within a national health service where risk remains collectivised (rather than individual) is entirely possible. Our NHS ranks as between 20th and 28th in the context of world health systems. Virtually all those that do better have a public-private hybrid with universal access free to the service user. Something we should be taking a long hard look at and exploring how other nations manage to make it work.
They fund it better by paying higher levels of tax. It's not rocket science, if you want the NHS you have to pay for it.
__________________
I Believed.......In Calvin Andrew
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:02 PM
Reps AJ's Avatar
Reps AJ Reps AJ is offline
Climbing for dollars
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Somewhere you're not
Posts: 10,607
Rep Power: 21474853
Reps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
An extra 350M a week heading its way fairly soon will save our NHS.
That might not happen now farage wants a new referendum
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:04 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lewisham
Posts: 10,273
Rep Power: 21474850
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
I blame Labour and PFI.
You would you wrongun.

The Tories are pro-PFI and pro privatisation. You really are the mug the Tories love. The ultimate doormat for the rich.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:08 PM
ExiledStirling's Avatar
ExiledStirling ExiledStirling is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Stirling
Age: 57
Posts: 30,375
Rep Power: 21474845
ExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is hereExiledStirling Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reps AJ View Post
That might not happen now farage wants a new referendum
The penny has dropped that he will lose his job as an MEP if brexit happens?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:08 PM
Windsor_Eagle's Avatar
Windsor_Eagle Windsor_Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ascot
Posts: 12,787
Rep Power: 21474843
Windsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
They fund it better by paying higher levels of tax. It's not rocket science, if you want the NHS you have to pay for it.
Far too simplistic.

% GDP spend does not correlate directly to health outcomes performance. Of course, certain aspects of any health system will perform better if more money is spent on it, but it does not improve the key efficiencies.

Put it this way - cancer and chronic disease treatment (how health outcome performance is measured) will always be the core functions of a health system. % of GPD spend on the health service does not have any clear correlation with performance in this area. It is like a millionaire and somebody on a meagre wage. Both will spend about the same on the staples of their grocery bill - fruit, vegetable, milk, bread, eggs etc. The differences in spend will be on aspects that might be considered more luxurious.

One thing that public-private hybrids can achieve is introduction of competitive markets to try and drive competition and improvement of standards. I think it is important that we get away from this rhetoric that only centralised government can be trusted with patient care and that any private organisation is inherently untrustworthy. Provided care remains free to the service user and that lessons are learnt from our international peers about how to safeguard healthcare in the arms of private enterprise - I think it one of the only ways that a free health service can effectively function in the future.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:10 PM
SE25 exile's Avatar
SE25 exile SE25 exile is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: on a small island with too many small minds.
Posts: 18,893
Rep Power: 21474855
SE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is hereSE25 exile Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windsor_Eagle View Post
NHS has been doomed to failure in its current guise for a bloody long time.

Party politics is EXACTLY the reason that no meaningful, effective reform has been done on it to prevent this problem. Too much short-term politicking and ground-grabbing and not enough coherent thought to what it needs.

The word 'private' has been emotively mocked to make it something that the public won't tolerate yet one just has to scratch the surface to see that the introduction of private enterprise within a national health service where risk remains collectivised (rather than individual) is entirely possible. Our NHS ranks as between 20th and 28th in the context of world health systems. Virtually all those that do better have a public-private hybrid with universal access free to the service user. Something we should be taking a long hard look at and exploring how other nations manage to make it work.
The word "private" has been rightly derided, as we all pay national insurance anyway and that should be enough to fund the NHS adequately. If it doesn't, then it needs to be raised and/or ring fenced properly. The NHS is still the best value for money, and it is only a matter of political will to make it work properly for all.
__________________
"Brexit is a populist and nationalist spasm worthy of Donald Trump" - Lord Adonis December 2017
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:10 PM
Reps AJ's Avatar
Reps AJ Reps AJ is offline
Climbing for dollars
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Somewhere you're not
Posts: 10,607
Rep Power: 21474853
Reps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is hereReps AJ Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledStirling View Post
The penny has dropped that he will lose his job as an MEP if brexit happens?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:12 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lewisham
Posts: 10,273
Rep Power: 21474850
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windsor_Eagle View Post
Far too simplistic.

% GDP spend does not correlate directly to health outcomes performance. Of course, certain aspects of any health system will perform better if more money is spent on it, but it does not improve the key efficiencies.

Put it this way - cancer and chronic disease treatment (how health outcome performance is measured) will always be the core functions of a health system. % of GPD spend on the health service does not have any clear correlation with performance in this area. It is like a millionaire and somebody on a meagre wage. Both will spend about the same on the staples of their grocery bill - fruit, vegetable, milk, bread, eggs etc. The differences in spend will be on aspects that might be considered more luxurious.

One thing that public-private hybrids can achieve is introduction of competitive markets to try and drive competition and improvement of standards. I think it is important that we get away from this rhetoric that only centralised government can be trusted with patient care and that any private organisation is inherently untrustworthy. Provided care remains free to the service user and that lessons are learnt from our international peers about how to safeguard healthcare in the arms of private enterprise - I think it one of the only ways that a free health service can effectively function in the future.
Privatisation is already causing havoc in the NHS and more of it will only make it worse.

Private companies have a bottom line of profit, not care. And the idea that the private sector is efficient just isn't true.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:12 PM
Biggineagle's Avatar
Biggineagle Biggineagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Proud Coney Hall Village Inhabitant.
Posts: 37,361
Rep Power: 21474847
Biggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is hereBiggineagle Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
You would you wrongun.

The Tories are pro-PFI and pro privatisation. You really are the mug the Tories love. The ultimate doormat for the rich.
Labour done the major damage to the NHS with its PFI schemes.
__________________
London is lost. Cheers Khan. Go NOW
Do not be afraid of being outnumbered. A lion walks alone while the sheep flock together and bleat. !!
A Good Old Fashioned Palace Supporter since 1963

Tis but a stale sterile far left / liberal echo chamber
"WE LEAVE THE EU MARCH 2019"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/be/Flag_of_England.svg/125px-Flag_of_England.svg.png
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:14 PM
cockneyrebel cockneyrebel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Lewisham
Posts: 10,273
Rep Power: 21474850
cockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is herecockneyrebel Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggineagle View Post
Labour done the major damage to the NHS with its PFI schemes.
Which the Tories supported whole heartedly and want more privatisation. And that was New Labour.

Do try and keep up you wrongun.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:14 PM
Random*'s Avatar
Random* Random* is offline
*Contents: Hydrogen, Time
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Epsom
Posts: 6,738
Rep Power: 12561609
Random* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy dietRandom* came here looking for the peace and quiet; the healthy air and the healthy diet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidofwonder View Post
They fund it better by paying higher levels of tax. It's not rocket science, if you want the NHS you have to pay for it.
Either more taxes or, as suggested a public-private hybrid model.

Universal healthcare is a boon for everyone in the country - anyone that needs treatment should be able to get it without damaging their own livelihood.

However there are plenty of people who could afford private health insurance that would take some strain off the NHS. I'm certain there's quite a lot of people that do have a level of health insurance via their employer that don't use it, either through ignorance or unwilling to pay any excess.

The despicable Tory austerity drive has predictably taken the NHS to this point, but we do need to think how we can avoid it being entirely destroyed - it is too precious an heirloom that needs to be passed on to the next generations.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:16 PM
GreatGonzo's Avatar
GreatGonzo GreatGonzo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 57,367
Rep Power: 21474855
GreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is hereGreatGonzo Sam the man is here
Reading the report.......

A&E waits are MARGINALLY worse than 12 months ago despite this being the worst flu season for several years.

Finally crashed? or just marginally worse than 12 months ago in much more difficult circumstances?

However it is time a proper debate took place as to what the British Public want from the NHS, the costs of that and what is needed in order to pay for it.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:18 PM
Maz's Avatar
Maz Maz is offline
Semper Idem
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: A place where nothing ever happens.
Posts: 150,590
Rep Power: 21474852
Maz has disabled reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
However it is time a proper debate took place as to what the British Public want from the NHS, the costs of that and what is needed in order to pay for it.
Yes.

And a cross-party one, without party politics diminishing and ruining it.
__________________
..
..G
abba Gabba Hey

.פɐppɐ פɐppɐ Hǝʎ


Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:20 PM
Windsor_Eagle's Avatar
Windsor_Eagle Windsor_Eagle is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Ascot
Posts: 12,787
Rep Power: 21474843
Windsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is hereWindsor_Eagle Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by cockneyrebel View Post
Privatisation is already causing havoc in the NHS and more of it will only make it worse.

Private companies have a bottom line of profit, not care. And the idea that the private sector is efficient just isn't true.
Where it is currently causing havoc because it is half-baked, ill-though through, politically manacled and emotively mistrusted. I am talking about a long-term fundamental change. There's no appetite for it but it is what I think is ultimately needed. However, other aspects like primary care that GG mentioned is actually improving things substantially.

Why is bottom line of profit correlated to scorn? For something to be profitable it has to work. If something works then it tends to be well received and well used. Honestly, we hang on to this idea that our NHS is somehow the envy of the world. It really, really isn't.

The argument that just spending a bit more, a bit more, a bit more will be the magic bullet is just burying heads in the sand. The demand for more money will always increase and the inefficiencies will worsen.

None of that is to say that all about the NHS is wrong. Far from it. Parts of it work very well. Many of its processes are cutting edge, world leading and worthy of pride. However, the core markers - what the NHS is really about - saving lives - it scores really rather poorly indeed for the 5/6th largest economy in the world.

People can pin all the blame on whichever political party is the current flavour of the month for being the reason for all the countries ills all they like but every winter the crisis facing the NHS is worst than the last and it will continue in such a way whilst there is consensus that the way it is organised is sacrosanct and that a few extra million / billion will solve the issues. Regardless of what colour resides at number 10.

This book is excellent and providesverviews for various health systems across the globe and all of their strengths and weaknesses. It is an interesting (if a little long) read.

To view the link you have to Register or Login

Last edited by Windsor_Eagle; 11-01-2018 at 12:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 11-01-2018, 12:20 PM
Chillo's Avatar
Chillo Chillo is offline
Lead Worshipper
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Epsom
Posts: 8,366
Rep Power: 21474854
Chillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is hereChillo Sam the man is here
Quote:
Originally Posted by SE25 exile View Post
The word "private" has been rightly derided, as we all pay national insurance anyway and that should be enough to fund the NHS adequately. If it doesn't, then it needs to be raised and/or ring fenced properly.
It's not ring-fenced at all and never has been.

Lib Dems have suggested hypothecated taxes - which is kind of what you are alluding to - ('an extra 1% on income tax to pay for the NHS' etc.) and it was roundly rejected at previous General Elections.
__________________
The greatest day in history .....
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.