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  #61  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Woosie View Post
An academy is far more than just producing footballers for the first-team. It has a significant benefit to the lives of some young people who otherwise would end up in pretty shit situations in life. It can bring some out of poverty, it teaches them important skills for life and a whole host of other things. It benefits the community as well.

What do you mean by "vast sums of money" - relative to what? Because the investment in the academy is not huge. It might be more pertinent to look at the reasons the club has not produced anyone from the academy since the likes of Wilf and Clyne. What is going wrong? What could be done better? Looking from the outside in I would say that we don't get players out on loan to the right club early enough, or out on loan enough at all.

The facilities are also not that helpful - though not the main issue - playing at Goals with poor pitches which are rented hardly helps to give them the best chances to develop.

The main issue is the fact we are in the Premier League, and the fact we have had a succession of managers who are focused solely on the first-team (for understandable reasons). To play in the PL requires a significantly better quality of player than to play in the Championship, and also a different type of player mentally as well as technically.

It is harder to make it in a top-flight team than a second division side, the squad in the PL is larger so if any injuries come along then you're more likely to see the manager turn to a player who has experience who has sat on the bench with much higher wages than a kid who has no or little experience. The bigger the squad the more players you have who you need to play or you'd be more likely to play over a kid.

The cost of relegation is so high now as a result of the TV money and sponsorship deals that a manager is far less likely to play a youth player because it is theoretically more of a risk than playing someone who has sat on the bench and had a few games here and there. Anything which increases the risk of relegation is not going to be considered by a manager who knows they will get sacked if they take the club down. Or by a manager who fears/knows that they won't be around for a long time.

That's just some of the reasons why we haven't produced anyone like Wilf/Clyne etc. 180 out of 1.5million kids playing organised youth football will make a Premier League appearance.

Until such a time as we are able to establish ourselves as a club which isn't constantly fighting relegation, only the very very very best young players will come through. Even then it will be difficult, and the chances of that happening are fairly slim given that mid-table no longer seems to exist in the PL.

That doesn't necessarily answer the question of what is the point of the academy, but historically Palace is a club which has cared about the academy, taken pride in it and bringing players through, but also for the community aspect of it. If you focus on an academy in purely football terms then you do a disservice to the community which the club serves.

TL;dr version - it helps the community, PL money makes it harder, lack of managerial stability, and one player coming through could pay for 10 years of running the academy
Agree with all that. FWIW I wouldn't disband the academy, but in a pure financial sense (ie if the owners didn't care about the community) they would.
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  #62  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:02 PM
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My youngest son played for Camden District for a year, as a goalkeeper. From what I, and he, have experienced, the respect and support shown to the players at borough level doesn't compare unfavourably with professional academies.
He learnt a lot, through some excellent coaching, trained at good facilities, and played in some well organised tournaments. Yet, he didn't have to contend with the idea that he was going to be working towards being a professional, and that he could just enjoy the opportunity and experience.
I have to say that some of the parental pressure and ambition that I witnessed was pretty ugly, particularly towards those boys who were already signed up to academies. There's a point where parental aspiration borders on abuse, and that is often exploited by professional clubs.
We still don't do enough to point out the realities for most kids, and still allow them to have unrealistic expectations and put all their eggs in one basket.
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  #63  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MFBias View Post
Compare Southampton’s catchment area with ours and the teams that are in that area. The academy is probably under invested but we are probably 5th choice at best for youngsters in the london area just on reputation alone.
Should be first choice in South London, Surrey, Sussex, Kent etc. But we are not because we are Category Two. Without Category One status we won't attract as much talent as we'd like to see coming through, simple as that.
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  #64  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:14 PM
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Would Wilf or Clyne have made it through today?
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  #65  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MFBias View Post
Out of interest, what divides a good coach and bad coach in youth football, what do they do/dont do?
In my opinion there are a number of things good coaches do.

They leave the boys in no doubt about what they are doing right and wrong. they have regular individual conversations with them and not just collectively. Even to the extent that they will take them aside mid match and risk the impact of doing so in order to help the player improve.

They will run high tempo training sessions that don't negate technical stuff but at the same time aren't constantly being stopped and started for intricate detail (albeit this does have to happen sometimes). He has an understanding of the game that means he can identify where each player needs to improve and he works on that with them. They will not have a succession of drills with players waiting in the queue. This is especialy important with young players, modern London dictates kids aren't kicking a ball around morning noon and night until their mum calls them for tea. They need to be kicking a ball for as much of the 2/3 hours training they are getting a week.

They are charismatic and nurturing but not the kind of person that the kids think they can arse about. If he tells them to listen he has the strength of personality to ensure they do. Without having to resort to swearing or shouting too often (however i am not against the odd bad word or shouting where appropriate).

They are flexible tactically. They don't stick rigidly to a formation or a style in the face of it destroying his players. If they come up against a team that is clearly stronger he isn't afraid to tighten things up and be more pragmatic recognising even at that level the result isn't important but not being blown away is. They believe in equal game time but at the same time don't suddenly withdraw the player keeping them in the game to put a relative struggler in the heart of defence.

In my opinion too many people get into coaching that simply aren't football fanatics and aren't prone to really thinking about it, some aren't prone to thinking about anything too deeply. They perform in game management like a repeated formula rather than reacting to what is happening. They often do not have the ability to identify the specifics each player needs extra work on. They are often young and don't feel confident enough to really control the behaviour of the children. They will run a set of drills and stick with them even if the session has lost tempo and momentum.

Last edited by scro; 08-02-2018 at 03:18 PM.
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  #66  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:16 PM
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Would Wilf or Clyne have made it through today?
nope. nor Victor Moses.
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  #67  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
What improvement and what benefits do you expect to see?

Youth football is dominated by 2 clubs in this country. The FA Youth cup, is it 4 years in a row it have been an Man City Vs Chelsea final?

2010-11 was the last year Chelsea did not make the final.

Last 3 years the 2 clubs have dominated the U18 league as well even though some of their eligible players will play up in the U23s. However look at how many players make it from those squad now? They have the very best youngsters from across the globe usually and even they struggle to get them through at PL level.

Pep only have 6 players on his bench because he didn't have anyone else! It was a ridiculous comment but shows how far off he thinks you youth players at City (who have many of the best) are from PL football.
Some great points there, that really puts it into perspective, but where does it leave the likes of Palace?
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  #68  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:34 PM
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Not sure what the OP means, won't be long before our academy keeper makes his 1st team debut.
Ha ha, clever, but a bit below the belt
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  #69  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:36 PM
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Smith View Post
Everyone I speak to - 'feeder' clubs and the kids who play in those teams; those running Academies at other clubs; scouts; coaches who work in our Academy; and even kids on contract at our Academy - tell you the same thing, our Academy is rubbish. Not shit, just rubbish.

That's disappointing, but on the other hand this obsession with Academies is just another expression of Modern Football. We should do a Huddersfield; much more ethical - and honest.
Interested, in what way rubbish? , the pitches, coaches facilities?
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Old 08-02-2018, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatGonzo View Post
One issue is that we have a few teams who dominate the youth level of football in this country so their youth teams are stockplied with more players than they can actually play. EPPP was about getting English players into and improving the national team.

Chelsea U18 keepers, Karlo Ziger is Croatian and joined last year, Nicolas Tie is French. Up front they have Redan who they bought last summer from Ajax!
They have a lot more than 3, they take young talent from everywhere
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  #72  
Old 08-02-2018, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by glaziers fan View Post
Should be first choice in South London, Surrey, Sussex, Kent etc. But we are not because we are Category Two. Without Category One status we won't attract as much talent as we'd like to see coming through, simple as that.
Yes, and ironically, South London is known as a hot-bed of talent, so receives attention from big clubs across the country, not just London. We probably have the weakest academy in South London, despite the poor state of the other clubs. I'm sure SP didn't expect our academy to be sacrificed for the first-team, nor for the training ground to take years to be resolved, but that is what has happened.
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  #73  
Old 08-02-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Celestial Empire View Post
Yes, and ironically, South London is known as a hot-bed of talent, so receives attention from big clubs across the country, not just London. We probably have the weakest academy in South London, despite the poor state of the other clubs. I'm sure SP didn't expect our academy to be sacrificed for the first-team, nor for the training ground to take years to be resolved, but that is what has happened.
Well, exactly, look at Ademola Lookman and Ruben Loftus-Cheek as just two examples of South London lads brimming with talent who are on the books of other clubs. Very sad, but that's where we are.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by viking's no1 View Post
Maybe one for a new thread but how do kids get noticed by Academies?

I can see that some clubs run open trials, there are some companies who have 'links' with academies and select a team to play them, some companies have a league and then select the best from the league to play against academies, some scouts turn up at local pitches.

Is it a case that if they're good enough they'll be noticed or should the parent be doing more to ensure they learn and play at the highest level they can?
I think in reality it's much less clandestine than the romantic image of scouts watching games in parks for the most part. Although perhaps that does happen.

I can only speak for how I have seen it work but often grassroots clubs will have contacts that they can recommend players to. There is minimal risk for the pro clubs because they will have a player training with their development unit for a while before taking them into the academy proper. This is unless a kid is exceptionally talented of course at which point they will have often have a number of offers to choose from. If you are a good kids coach and you have a player that is excellent i am sure clubs like palace have no problem with you calling them up and recommending the odd player. I am sure you would soon get cut off if you proved a nuisance time waster.

Also pro clubs at a young age will play lots of games against grassroots clubs and the coaches will often ask the stronger players from the clubs they play against to come and train.

It's by no means a perfect system but from what i have seen really decent and active grassroots players get 3/4 cracks at it even if they are rejected at various times. So i doubt many fall through from that pool of players. The area I suspect is not very well tapped is the ones that haven't got motivated parents or parents that simply do not have the money for grassroots football which in london can be expensive. There are clubs trying to put that right but they are few and far between. Understandably these things cost money and often they are run as someones business or sideline.

There are some popping up as pay what you can afford charities but they are few and far between and I am not entirely sure if they work completely in terms of actually attracting players that cannot afford to play.
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Old 08-02-2018, 04:20 PM
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Well, exactly, look at Ademola Lookman and Ruben Loftus-Cheek as just two examples of South London lads brimming with talent who are on the books of other clubs. Very sad, but that's where we are.
Palace had Ademola Lookman in on trial on several occasions. At least one kid at Man City came through Kinetic which is based in Croydon were also at Palace.
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:04 PM
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As an aside Woos, yours and Gazzas opinions are always top notch, do you feel optimistic that any of the current crop will make it?

It good to see Allesani excelling this season, I'm sure he'll be snapped up by a league 2 side come the summer
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