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Steve in Phoenix
24-01-2002, 12:07 AM
Pot A: France (reigning champions), Sweden, Spain, Czech Republic, Germany, Republic of Ireland, Romania, Italy, Belgium, Turkey

Pot B: Russia, Croatia, Denmark, Netherlands, Yugoslavia, Poland, England, Slovenia, Ukraine, Scotland

Pot C: Austria, Norway, Slovakia, Israel, Switzerland, Iceland, Bulgaria, Finland, Greece, Hungary

Pot D: Cyprus, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Belarus, Wales, Estonia, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Georgia, FYR Macedonia, Lithuania

Pot E: Armenia, Moldova, Albania, Faroe Islands, Azerbaijan, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Malta, Luxembourg, Andorra


Well Turkey, Belgium and Ireland are all top seeds while Holland and England arent? :rolleyes: Which semi finals of any major competition have any of these three ever made?

Strathclyde Eagle
24-01-2002, 12:13 AM
Well Turkey reached the second round of Euro 2000. Of course the Republic weren't there at all.

I'm very, very confused about the way this draw has been organised.

sydney eagle
24-01-2002, 12:20 AM
Germany in pot A again :rolleyes:

Steve in Phoenix
24-01-2002, 12:32 AM
By the way dont get your hopes up of an easy draw.. Spain have first dibs on the following from each group.. Slovenia, Austria, Cyprus and San Marino. :) At least we cant get Scotland or Poland. Norway and Greece are definitely the most dangerous teams in group C.

Levski
24-01-2002, 12:35 AM
Does this mean Ireland are rated higher than England? That's a farce.
And how on Earth are Scotland in the same rating as England?
I'm not even much of an England fan, but this is unbelievable.
Scotland always get easy qualification groups and still very rarely if ever qualify. When they do qualify they never make round 2. Bizarre.

sydney eagle
24-01-2002, 01:11 AM
Spain are the ones who get it easy EVERY SINGLE TIME:grrr:

wedgetail
24-01-2002, 01:39 AM
Originally posted by sydney eagle
Spain are the ones who get it easy EVERY SINGLE TIME:grrr:

fair dues mate, they do pay for it.

Sunny Fan
24-01-2002, 01:35 PM
When's the draw being made?

Raf
24-01-2002, 01:42 PM
This draw is complete gubbins. Apparently it's decided on Euro 2000 performances and WC 2002 performances. In that case, how can Germany be above England - when we beat them in BOTH groups?? :confused:
And why are Turkey rated better than Holland?!?

Farnboro' Eagle
24-01-2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Raf
This draw is complete gubbins. Apparently it's decided on Euro 2000 performances and WC 2002 performances. In that case, how can Germany be above England - when we beat them in BOTH groups?? :confused:
And why are Turkey rated better than Holland?!?

I can understand the Turkey/Netherlands situation from a WC qualification perspective, but not from previous form. It does appear to be a rather fracical situation!

Cleon
24-01-2002, 01:51 PM
I really don't understand why the Republic would be ranked higher than England on any basis. They failed to qualify for ER96, WC98 or ER00 (England qualified for all, reaching semis in 96), came second in their group for WC02 (England won their group), and are ranked lower than England in the FIFA world standings.

Can somebody help me out here please?!

bucketbongeagle
24-01-2002, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Sunny Fan
When's the draw being made?

Come on someone must know.....

Strathclyde Eagle
24-01-2002, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Steve in Phoenix
Well Turkey, Belgium and Ireland are all top seeds while Holland and England arent? :rolleyes: Which semi finals of any major competition have any of these three ever made?

On call... Captain Irrelevant... Belgium did reach the semis of the World Cup in 1986. Of course that was sixteen years ago now. :rolleyes:

On the same basis you would have thought that Denmark would be more deserving of a place in pot A, given that they actually won the whole tournament ten years ago.

The whole thing seems to be a total mess. Sums up UEFA nicely if you ask me.

Raf
24-01-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Sunny Fan
When's the draw being made?

The draw's tomorrow - sometime in the morning, I think.

Found this which sheds a bit more light on how UEFA came up with their cunning seedings...

"Teams are seeded according to their performances in qualifying for the 2002 World Cup and Euro 2000.
The calculation involves dividing the total number of points gained in both competitions by the number of games played.
Both England and Scotland finished second in their qualifying groups for Euro 2000, and played each other for the right to play at Euro 2000.
And while Scotland failed to qualify for this year's World Cup, England had the lowest points total of all the teams who finished top of their group." (from BBC)
Just seems like UEFA making it as tricky as possible for England to qualify if you ask me.

Sunny Fan
24-01-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Raf

Just seems like UEFA making it as tricky as possible for England to qualify if you ask me.
Which is strange considering England would provide some of the greatest TV revenue.

Cleon
24-01-2002, 02:31 PM
Still doesn't explain Ireland's place in the top tier? Ireland have a good team now, but their performance over the last six years has been fairly poor in comparison.

Jack Regan
24-01-2002, 02:33 PM
Italy beat Zimbabwe last year but Zimbabwe arn't even in the draw!

Who's organising the draw, Don King?

This stinks!

Banger
24-01-2002, 02:37 PM
U.E.F.A don't want England to qualify because of the hooligan problem. It's that simple!

simon
24-01-2002, 02:57 PM
how many go through?

Parkice
24-01-2002, 03:08 PM
The 50 teams entering the draw are split into 10 groups of five.

10 group winners will qualify automatically for Euro 2004

the 10 runners-up get the chance to play-off for the remaining five places in the tournament.

biggus mickus
24-01-2002, 08:57 PM
I just feal that UEFA hate us.

hong_kong_hg
24-01-2002, 09:05 PM
All seems logical to me based on the logic for the draw already posted. Removing one's rose-tinted (England- ha ha!) glasses for a moment, since the draw will be random the only certainty is that England won't meet any of the other countries in group B and may well find the group they are in quite favourable.

Strathclyde Eagle
24-01-2002, 09:15 PM
So if I've understood this correctly you could get a group consisting of:

Belgium
Slovenia
Iceland
Wales and
Andorra

While you could also get a group of

France
England
Norway
Georgia (no mugs) and
Albania (who gave us two tough games in WC qualifying)

T'rific. :rolleyes:

PeterH
24-01-2002, 09:31 PM
So the fact Ireland didn't qualify for the last one, had to play off against Iran for this years World Cup when we won the group and that we were semi finalists in 1996 doesn't count.

Its definately a conspiracy.

Daniel_Nash
25-01-2002, 02:20 AM
Conspiracy theory:

UEFA are against England because of the history of the fans in European competitions. They realise that England now have the support and the players, and the youth system to challenge. Now and in the future. So by putting England in tougher groups for the qualification there is a lesser chance we will qualify in top place for the finals, meaning we get put in a tougher group for the actual finals (like this time) and there is then a lesser chance of us getting far in the competition.

It's all Lennart Johansson!!! He is the head of this conspiracy.

great dane
25-01-2002, 02:35 AM
anybody knows what time the draw is ?

firesign
25-01-2002, 02:53 AM
I agree with the conspiracy theory. It's true the Irish are popular abroad and the English aren't (sadly with good reason too often).

Anyway, I don't think there should be any seeding - it should be a completely random draw. The FA Cup isn't seeded is it?

LittlePinkStar
25-01-2002, 03:02 AM
If any of you can get in the real world here. UEFA do not have anything against England or any other country. They have to have a draw system and try to do it as fair as possible. The seeding thing is made up from past-qualifaction for major tournaments, performance in major tournaments and current rankings. All the points get sorted out and then the top 9 teams go into the first pot and so on. Just coz you all love England so much doesn't mean they get a raw deal. What have they done in past competitions (NOTHING) and they qualified with the least amount of points. England are second, DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve in Phoenix
25-01-2002, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by LittlePinkStar
If any of you can get in the real world here. UEFA do not have anything against England or any other country. They have to have a draw system and try to do it as fair as possible. The seeding thing is made up from past-qualifaction for major tournaments, performance in major tournaments and current rankings. All the points get sorted out and then the top 9 teams go into the first pot and so on. Just coz you all love England so much doesn't mean they get a raw deal. What have they done in past competitions (NOTHING) and they qualified with the least amount of points. England are second, DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What have they done? Semi Finalists twice in last 12 years. Holland made a few semi finals in that time too. What have Belgium, Ireland and Turkey done? One semi in their whole history combined. Only Belgium actually won a qualifying group (which is what being a top seed means you are expected to do).

(Not to mention Holland and England are top 10 in the world while Turkey dont even make the top 20 and probably wouldnt make most people's top 30).

Steve in Phoenix
25-01-2002, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by great dane
anybody knows what time the draw is ?

I dont see it listed on any of my regular sites.. I guess around lunchtime in Porto tomorrow (Friday).

LittlePinkStar
25-01-2002, 04:11 AM
Sorry everyone but my chimp of a mate is staying round at the moment and he posted without me knowing. He thinks he knows everything about everything but hasn't got a clue really (Let's face it he does support Everton). Anyway ignore my last post on here. Also did you see John Gregory resigned tonight (didn't think he was that bad myself) and well done to Brentford for beating the seaweeders 4-0.

Steve in Phoenix
25-01-2002, 04:19 AM
Not a problem.. nothing wrong with his post.

A lot of non-English fans feel that way about it actually from what Ive seen on message boards.

Steve in Phoenix
25-01-2002, 11:38 AM
Just did a bit of research and it confirmed what I think..

BTW - Sweden was ranked No.2 after France :eek: top team yeah but ahead of Italy, Germany, Spain.. I dont think so .. they had rankings based on this criteria of adding the points together and dividing by games played.

What about the obvious factor that England only played in smaller groups than most -twice- and didnt get an extra easy team to play both times? Not only that but theirs was the only group to have just one easy team both times (Albania and Luxembourg) - others had three, such as Ireland and Turkey

Euros - Sweden England Poland Bulgaria Luxembourg
World - England Germany Finland Greece Albania

Turkey had:
Euros - Germany Turkey Finland N.I. Moldova
World - Sweden Turkey Slovakia Macedonia Azerbaijan Moldova

Being in a small group also affected Denmark who would have been in the top group but for the extra easy games counting. Belgium only had one campaign which was in a small group but had two very easy teams (three if you count Scotland) and of course it counted double compared to most countries.

Effing ridiculous way of ranking the teams. I dont mind England being behind Denmark or even Belgium.. but please.. Turkey? Jeez.

great dane
25-01-2002, 12:31 PM
Now I'm pro-Denmark, since I'm, well, Danish:) and I totally agree on the Turkey thing. They haven't accomplished anything on the international scene anyway. Denmark won the bloody tournament in '92. I know it's 10 years ago but still. We also won the Intercontinential Championship tournament (i know it's not a big tournament, but still) in 1995 by beating Argentina 2-0 in the final. We also did pretty well in the 98 WC (where we qualified top of the group ahead of Croatia and Greece) beating Nigeria 4-1 and matched Brazil in the quarters but sadly lost 3-2:sob:. In the WC 02 qualifiers we won the group ahead of teams like the Czech Republic and Bulgaria, that must count for something, the Turks only came second behind Sweden. I'm not one to brag or anything but it's all hard facts. I don't know, maybe the effort put in by the Danes in euro 2000 cancelles it all out by losing all games in the group with a total score of 0-8:eek:
Still I don't mind Denmark being in the 2nd pot, just as long as teams like Turkey and Rep. of Ireland aren't in the 1st one.
Well thats just my opinion anyway. But be sure that we either get France, Spain or the Czechs in our group, we always does:p

Sunny Fan
25-01-2002, 03:08 PM
BBC website says 1100 GMT.
Which is now.

Sunny Fan
25-01-2002, 03:32 PM
Well, England have got Turkey, so we'll see:)

GROUP 1
France
Slovenia
Israel
Cyrpus
Malta


GROUP 2
Romania
Denmark
Norway
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Luxembourg


GROUP 3
Czech Republic
Holland
Austria
Belarus
Moldova


GROUP 4
Sweden
Poland
Hungary
Latvia
San Marino


GROUP 5
Germany
SCOTLAND
Iceland
Lithuania
Faroe Islands


GROUP 6
Spain
Ukraine
Greece
Northern Ireland
Armenia


GROUP 7
Turkey
ENGLAND
Slovakia
Macedonia
Liechtenstein


GROUP 8
Belgium
Croatia
Bulgaria
Estonia
Andorra


GROUP 9
Italy
Yugoslavia
Finland
WALES
Azerbaijan


GROUP 10
Republic of Ireland
Russia
Switzerland
Georgia
Albania

Scotty
25-01-2002, 03:37 PM
No away games I fancy going to there!

Cleon
25-01-2002, 03:38 PM
Sweet draw! Ireland, despite the odd positioning, have a much more difficult group.

Ruskin Old Boy
25-01-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Scotty
No away games I fancy going to there!

Liechtenstein is very nice. The ground is very Ryman's league :)

Chocky
25-01-2002, 03:43 PM
England in "easy" group draw shocker.

Bloody hell even Graham Taylor couldn't f*** that one up.

Even if we win the group by a mile I bet we're still unseeded for the tournament draw, getting in a group with France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Argentina even though they're not European init, with 6 teams qualifying from the group.

Skin Up
25-01-2002, 03:44 PM
Well if UEFA conspired to prevent crowd trouble it definatly backfired with England and Turkey in the same group:eek:

If your all going to Macidonia clap your hands

Ruskin Old Boy
25-01-2002, 03:45 PM
Group 9 looks the toughest...

Sunny Fan
25-01-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Ruskin Old Boy
Group 9 looks the toughest...
Yup, poor old Wales, eh.
Come on Aki:)

Strathclyde Eagle
25-01-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Ruskin Old Boy
Group 9 looks the toughest...

Wales to finish bottom?

What?
25-01-2002, 03:48 PM
HA HA! The easyness! May well be worth a bet!

Sunny Fan
25-01-2002, 03:48 PM
Berti Vogts, as Scotland manager, to face Germany

The Omen
25-01-2002, 03:58 PM
Should make for some interesting holidays over the next two years!

Never been to Liechenstein, Macedonia or Slovakia. Must admit though, Turkey as a football holiday, doesn't appeal to me one bit. :(

Elephant with mouse gyp
25-01-2002, 04:22 PM
Just read this thread from beginning to end.

Now would all you chip on your shoulder English nationalist conspiracy theory types please come on hear and admit you were wrong. Good job there were no Aussies watching - whingeing Poms indeed.

The Omen
25-01-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp
Just read this thread from beginning to end.

Now would all you chip on your shoulder English nationalist conspiracy theory types please come on hear and admit you were wrong. Good job there were no Aussies watching - whingeing Poms indeed.

Just becuase the draw was kind to us, doesn't hide the fact that we were clearly discriminated against when the pots were chosen.

We should not have been behind Ireland, Turkey, Spain or Belgium - all of which have performed worse than us in recent tournaments.

Ruskin Old Boy
25-01-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Strathclyde Eagle


Wales to finish bottom?

Not with Symons in the side :)

melteagle
25-01-2002, 05:56 PM
Now we know the group - this'll be a stroll - i'm already booking my flights - it just so happens that i own a little pad in west algarve - does anybody know the venues yet - lisbon is about 4hrs/faro 90 mins drive from my front door

Unfortunately David Seaman is having a villa built on the same complex - so i suppose i'll have to put up with loads of gooners hanging around the place

oh dear its a tough life

:p

Elephant with mouse gyp
25-01-2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by The Omen


Just becuase the draw was kind to us, doesn't hide the fact that we were clearly discriminated against when the pots were chosen.

We should not have been behind Ireland, Turkey, Spain or Belgium - all of which have performed worse than us in recent tournaments.

Don't think so. They all did better in the World Cup qualifying campaign, according the rules UEFA used. It might be an odd system to some, but it does reward current performance much more than previous systems - a good idea in my view.

England also had quite a weak group in World Cup qualifying, including the worst German side since records began, a Greek side imploding that England drew at home against and a Finnish side which are on the up but not there yet. Ireland knocked out Holland for godsake, one of the best sides in the world and were up against Portugal, another very strong side. Turkey and Belgium might be more arguable, but Turkey have improved immeasurably over the past decade, while Belgium came through against Croatia, yet another side which would certainly give England a run for its money.

And, let us not forget, which team it was that stank the place out at the last tournament.

In any case, if UEFA had really wanted to do the dirty on England, why would they have left it to chance like that?

nicky
25-01-2002, 06:26 PM
Can anyone see any of the "3rd teams" getting through?

The Omen
25-01-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp


Don't think so. They all did better in the World Cup qualifying campaign, according the rules UEFA used. It might be an odd system to some, but it does reward current performance much more than previous systems - a good idea in my view.

England also had quite a weak group in World Cup qualifying, including the worst German side since records began, a Greek side imploding that England drew at home against and a Finnish side which are on the up but not there yet. Ireland knocked out Holland for godsake, one of the best sides in the world and were up against Portugal, another very strong side. Turkey and Belgium might be more arguable, but Turkey have improved immeasurably over the past decade, while Belgium came through against Croatia, yet another side which would certainly give England a run for its money.

And, let us not forget, which team it was that stank the place out at the last tournament.

In any case, if UEFA had really wanted to do the dirty on England, why would they have left it to chance like that?

You seem to be missing the point. Yeah, ok, Turkey and Belgium have improved lately, but they still are not as good as us - if you think they are then you obviously change your mind quickly as you said previously that England are in an easy group - and that contains Turkey.

If, as you are saying, Ireland have got in the top seeds because they knocked Holland out then surely we should have been in there instead of Germany.

Its a fix. There are so many different ways UEFA and FIFA keep working out the way the pots are drawn. They must go through every mathematical way of doing it and settle for the one which goes against some teams that they don't want to see do well.

Oh and I'm sorry, but out last WC Qualifying was anything but easy. There was not one easy team in the whole group. :rolleyes:

The Omen
25-01-2002, 07:08 PM
I reckon these four countries who were in the third pot stand a chance of getting a play-off place.

Israel, Norway, Iceland and Finland

Ian of Chatham
26-01-2002, 02:12 PM
I can't see the point of making a fuss aboout seedings for a qualifier to be honest, unlike a Euro/WC finals draw it does not mean that the seeded team play all their games in one place doesnt it? We could have easily drawn the same group we have now if we were seeded and Turkey wasn't and another thing, if England were so good as you lot say we are that we should be seeded in every tournament we enter, let's prove it be beatiing the stronger sides in our group when we are not seeded. I think people moan because they don't want to play the stronger sides in the qualifier stages.

As for the conspiracy theory about hooliganism, I don't believe it's true but if it was, we deserve it anyway and would continue to do so until our fans learned how to behave abroad.

PeterH
27-01-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp


Don't think so. They all did better in the World Cup qualifying campaign, according the rules UEFA used. It might be an odd system to some, but it does reward current performance much more than previous systems - a good idea in my view.

England also had quite a weak group in World Cup qualifying, including the worst German side since records began, a Greek side imploding that England drew at home against and a Finnish side which are on the up but not there yet. Ireland knocked out Holland for godsake, one of the best sides in the world and were up against Portugal, another very strong side. Turkey and Belgium might be more arguable, but Turkey have improved immeasurably over the past decade, while Belgium came through against Croatia, yet another side which would certainly give England a run for its money.

And, let us not forget, which team it was that stank the place out at the last tournament.

In any case, if UEFA had really wanted to do the dirty on England, why would they have left it to chance like that?

Im sorry but you argument is full of holes. Although your last point makes a lot of sense. It looked like a case of UEFA
finding a set of rules that would make it hardest for England. Some facts:

On paper our qualifying group wasn't weak, when we drew the Germans at the time they were considered good. Considered so good in fact they are still top seeds for the Euro Draw (how on your arguments about current form) and this years World Cup Finals. Did Ireland and Germanys current form score improve because they counted wins in play off matches, certainly looks like it.

Ireland havenīt even qualified for the last two Euro championships. The two football mad Irish on my current trip couldnīt beleive the seedings. Germany stank the place out more than us, we beat them. Oh and Ireland weren't there.

Ireland and Turkey are both below us in the world rankings, do these superficial figures count for nothing when theres bribes going around.

What world cup qualifying campaign did Germany and Ireland do better than say us and Denmark in was that where the later qualified by right and the former by play offs.

Personally I would like to think that the know nothing men in suits just ballsed it up as usual, and theres nothing more sinister.

What was that dig about drawing at home against the Greeks. It doesnīt matter we won the group, not difficult to understand is it.

We are not the ones with a mountain size chip on our shoulders. Please tell us your preferred national team. You have uttered such anti-English rubbish above without once giving over your team.

Ireland did well to qualify in the same group as Holland, but top seeds, please. Its a joke and a bad one.


Still alls well that ends well. You are so impressed with Turkey, how about a 50 quid wager who finishes highest in the group.

Absolutely no complaints, the Jocks and the Wesh should be out, the Irish will probably come second to Russia, we will walk our group. France have it easy again??? and wheres Portugal??? Donīt fancy being Austria or Norway. :eek:

Steve in Phoenix
28-01-2002, 01:05 AM
Portugal are hosts remember, so qualify automatically.

Dont forget this is based on points per game average in the qualifying campaigns. Since England only had one easy qualifier to beat (Albania then Luxembourg) in smaller groups while most teams such as Ireland got two or even three easy teams (therefore two more games at a points per game average of 100% or 3.00 per game) in larger groups, unsurprisingly those teams benefited.

PalaceFan in Alabama
28-01-2002, 01:45 AM
Come on "Elephant with mouse gyp", I await your response to PeterH's comments :p The poms comment was a little too obvious, but there again I could be wrong :rolleyes:

Outside of the host and the prior winner, why should any team be seeded, why not just throw them all into a hat and let them fall as picked, at least that way some of the smaller countries may have a chance of making it. It appears to have worked OK for the FA Cup for the last 100+ years:p But there again because it works does not make it right in some peoples eyes.:rolleyes:

PeterH
28-01-2002, 02:04 AM
Yep Portugal qualifying as hosts would make sense. :o