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GreatGonzo
30-01-2002, 05:42 PM
These referees are time and time again critised by players managers and fans for some of the most incompetent performances and worst refereed games. Yet these 3 cretins astonishingly make up 33% of Englands FIFA referees!

http://www.footballnews.co.uk/referees/00/0070/home.page

pete eagle
30-01-2002, 05:48 PM
they are poor. The ref's first half was awful last night. Redeemed himself slightly in the second

GreatGonzo
30-01-2002, 05:50 PM
Pete know what you are saying, but there are enough threads about last nights ref, and while he is named here this is rteally about peoples views on why the FA feels it can call these referees good enough for FIFA standing.

30-01-2002, 08:59 PM
Name 3 'Mistakes' Styles made last night :o

I was at the match and thought he was awful, I've just reviewed the video and I'm hard pressed to disagree with any of his decisions. :sob:

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/fart.gif

Dobbo
30-01-2002, 09:05 PM
Try time added on

biggus mickus
30-01-2002, 09:12 PM
Was he at the first half of this game. I have seen the re-run of our player getting his head kicked off. Mr Stiles was a pish poor joke. I hope he looks at the re-run of his performance and learns something from it.
I doubt he will, to short sighted to see the tv.:grrr:

eieieio steveb
30-01-2002, 09:18 PM
He was trying to make a name for himself on the Tele.
A ref should be seen and not herd. The best refs are the ones that you don't notice.

See the p rick on the jumbotron at h/t he was loving it!!
Lost all control and ruined the game. :sob:

Trolley
30-01-2002, 10:34 PM
If we had emerged victorious, there would have been NO complaints whatsoever directed at Mr Styles.

Isn't it strange that the poor referee always has vitriol heaped on him by supporters of teams that have been defeated.

From my perspective, I was slightly bemused by some of his decisions, however he was a great deal closer to the action than my good self perched in the Directors Box and his eyes are probably far better than mine !

On a general point, referees are only human and WILL make mistakes just like we do in all walks of life.We would NOT expect Mr Morrison to score from EVERY shot, we would NOT expect Mr Mullins to complete every pass so why should we expect referees to be absolutely spot on ALL the time ?

GreatGonzo
30-01-2002, 10:43 PM
Dear Mr. Trolley

May i suggest a quick phonecall to the opticians as it seems your prescription spectacles are not working properly.

This thread is not about last night, it is about the fact that these 3 referees have in recents weeks been critisiesed by many many people.

That is FACT

Crunchie
30-01-2002, 10:51 PM
Some of the time would be a start though Trolley.

I agree that we blame the ref more often when we lose, but for example when we beat Bradford 2-0 at home, I mentioned then that the Referee was awful.

My opinion at the end of the day, is that too many referees have inflated egos, and want to get noticed in their job.

As already said on this thread, is that the best referees are the ones you hardly notice during the game.

This is because they let the game flow, or the make the majority of the decisions correctly, and sometimes both.

The best ref in the world is that Italian Ref because this is exactly what he does.

Last night the ref was inept and that was putting it lightly. Its inconsistency that gets on my nerves. Tackles when it is inoxious and others where the player is poleaxed on purpose are often treated with the same treatment- Yellow.

Why is it, like last night and in many games these days, that the victim of a retaliation (i.e Boothroyd on Granville) gets a red card as well as the aggressor.

If Boothroyd didn't retaliate the Granville would have got a yellow card - end of story (maybe not last night though :rolleyes: ). But as he did, they both got Red, why?

Also, it is amazing that a lineman needs lesson in the offside rule.- You can only be offside, if and when the ball is played forward - you muppet

Trolley
30-01-2002, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by GreatGonzo
Dear Mr. Trolley

May i suggest a quick phonecall to the opticians as it seems your prescription spectacles are not working properly.

This thread is not about last night, it is about the fact that these 3 referees have in recents weeks been critisiesed by many many people.

That is FACT

With respect, the opening post mentioned a certain Mr Styles so it seemed appropriate to make a comment about his performance last night.

Besides, my final comment was directed at referees in general and seemed relevant and pertinant as the three officials mentioned are part of the "Referees Union".

Referees like Messrs Poll,Styles and Riley will have good games and bad games and will have periods when they are "Off Form".
In this respect they are no different to any footballer or indeed employees in general.

Gavin Axten
30-01-2002, 11:03 PM
That was not being off form, you cannot be as bad as Styles last night, he was just inept. I would like to think that if the club complained the FA would study the video of last night match. When there is so much at stake with regards to possible promotion and relegation issues the refs need to be more accountable for their actions. There is so much big money in football that referees could end up costing a club millions. I also don't believe that crap about decisions even themselves out over the course of a season, maybe i'm biased but we certainly seem to have come off the worse over recent seasons.

Trolley
30-01-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Gavin Axten
I also don't believe that crap about decisions even themselves out over the course of a season, maybe i'm biased but we certainly seem to have come off the worse over recent seasons.

I am NOT aware of any statistical analysis that has been undertaken to backup the familiar mantra that decisions even themselves out over the course of a season.

Perhaps it is only a perception or club officials believing in the "Law of averages".

Crunchie
30-01-2002, 11:39 PM
Sorry C0cked up here

Maidstoned Eagle
31-01-2002, 12:03 AM
The problem is that we seem to always get the wrong end of poor refereeing decision, or if not always a vast majority of the time.

I hope that it has been no coincedence that in the last two seasons our chances of reaching the fourth round of the F.A. Cup have been thwarted by poor decisions by the same man? Mike Riley. Examples? Last year at Sunderland, failure to give a clear Penalty when Sorenson brought Forsell down in the last few minutes of the game. Press photo's the next day clearly showed Sorenson holding onto Mikkel's ankle!
This season, he gave a free kick for handball, which (even without the aid of slow motion replays) clearly wasn't the case and Shearer scored from. Then we have a perfectly good goal disallowed, which would have brought us level at a crucial point in the match.

Witness the awful refereeing decisions we had to endure when we were in the Premiership, Pistones, unpunished challenge on Bruce Dyer, Edworthy being sent off for "running in a threatening manner" are two examples that spring instantly to mind.

These poor decisions have invairibly cost us, not just financially but also in the advancement of this club and I'm sorry to say that it keeps happening. Rob Styles made many errors last night which have been recounted all over the BBS today and the galling thing is that he will not be made accountable. This is what is wrong with the system we have in football. A lot has been made about the bringing in of "full-time referees", whereby they are paid to do this job on a proffessional basis, however if I did the job, that I was paid to do, and made mistakes that cost my clients (because that is what football teams are for referees, clients) money I would be sacked, end of story. Referees on the other hand , are demoted down to the Nationwide for a couple of weeks and then get let back up to the Premiership. And anyone who watched Jeff Winters attitude towards the Natinwide teams when he refereed our match against Notts Forest last season will know what they think of that idea.

Things have to be done, and the only thing that can be done is to have video replays, with a fifth official sitting in the stands. I know people complain that it would hold the game up, but I'd much rather sit around for 30 seconds waiting for a decision than watch another perfectly good goal dissallowed.

Gooders
31-01-2002, 12:21 AM
Trolley - your automatic defence of referees has become as boringly predictable as your whinging about people standing up. Change the record please.

Catalogue of errors last night, did someone say?

Failure to book or even talk to players who deliberately did not retreat 10 yards at free-kicks.
Failure to notice or do anything about Gary Breen pushing and pulling Palace players all over the place at every corner.
Failure to book two players who "dived" even though he didn't give them penalties or free-kicks.
Failure to book or even have a word with a player who nearly took Flemings head off with a dangerously high tackle.
Adding 2 minutes only on to a first half in which there were two goals, two sendings off, two lengthy stoppages for injuries and two substitutions.
Adding 2 minutes only on to a second half in which there were two goals, numerous bookings, two lengthy stoppages for injuries and four substitutions, not to mention Hedman being booked for time-wasting.

There you go - I've left out the really contentious stuff like the disallowed goal and free-kick that shouldn't have been given that led to their second and the numerous incorrect off-side decisions and the blatant push on Dougie and the incorrect sending off of Granville etc, but I think the catalogue of woe is long enough already.

Styles is a **** of the highest order, and Trolley you are a **** for so predictably defending him.

Gosling
31-01-2002, 12:27 AM
Trolley,

To paraphrase some clever bloke at some point, the only war criminal is the loser in the war. Therefore, the only people to blame the ref are the losing side. Yes, I suppose you are right. And on this occasion that was us.

But,

WE HATE ROB STYLES
AND WE HATE ROB STYLES

WE HATE ROB STYLES
AND WE HATE ROB STYLES

WE HATE ROB STYLES
AND WE HATE ROB STYLES

WE ARE THE ROB STYLES

HATERS!!

What?
31-01-2002, 12:27 AM
Bad decisions are part of football, and unless, like last night, it happens to us can be entertaining.

Trolley
31-01-2002, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Gooders
Trolley - your automatic defence of referees has become as boringly predictable as your whinging about people standing up. Change the record please.

Styles is a **** of the highest order, and Trolley you are a **** for so predictably defending him.

Gooders,

I am within my rights to express my opinions on the BBS every much as you have the right to express yours.
As with opinions, views and standpoints one can never please ALL of the populace ALL of the time and of course what might be deemed tedious to one might be enlightning to another.

Regards, Mr Styles, if you had read my previous posts you would have seen that I stated categorically that I was a tad bemused by some of his decisions, however he was a great deal closer to the play than my good self and his eyes a lot better than mine !

From an overall perspective, I can only re-iterate that referees being human cannot always perform at their peak of their abilities and some will of course err sometimes with far reaching consequences for a particular team.
We should NOT expect referees to be on top of their game EVERY game - They make mistakes and will continue to make mistakes just like we all do in our various walks of life.

JohnA
31-01-2002, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by GreatGonzo
why the FA feels it can call these referees good enough for FIFA standing.

I was like a savant quoting Style's FIFA grade last night. It started as fact and ended as me quoting that he was a FIFA ref, in ever more desperate tones (like the 20 year old who has just moved out of home and to be disappointed on Dec 25th when he discovers that there is no Santa) There are no decent refs (however anyone see the African Nation's cup? - maybe much like Catholic Ireland is taking in African priests, English football should take in African ref's - in both cases everyone benefits).

hughff
31-01-2002, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Trolley
If we had emerged victorious, there would have been NO complaints whatsoever directed at Mr Styles.

Isn't it strange that the poor referee always has vitriol heaped on him by supporters of teams that have been defeated.

Both Palace and Coventry are complaining about the refereeing. That Palace are complaining louder is to be expected, as they suffered more from the decisions made.

Originally posted by Trolley
On a general point, referees are only human and WILL make mistakes just like we do in all walks of life.We would NOT expect Mr Morrison to score from EVERY shot, we would NOT expect Mr Mullins to complete every pass so why should we expect referees to be absolutely spot on ALL the time ?

Just because people moan about referees after they have lost does not mean that they don't have genuine complaints. If a Palace player is not up to scratch, the supporters get stuck into him too. The importance and the dificulty of what is done also affects the response. If a player never puts a foot wrong except to miss a tap in (easy) or give away a penalty in the last minute at the corner of the penalty box and goal line (vital) then he will be slated. Referees decisions are often vital, so they are bound to be hammered. Not getting something as simple as the time added on correct is also fair game.

Fallen Eagle
31-01-2002, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by GreatGonzo
Dear Mr. Trolley

This thread is not about last night, it is about the fact that these 3 referees have in recents weeks been critisiesed by many many people.

That is FACT

OK so it may be a fact that people are having a go at these three refs but "many people" dislike Eastenders, it doesn't make it factually crap, they are expressing opinions. Looks like we've got another Trolley vs everyone else thread on our hands. I hope we start sticking to the point.
In my opinion, the ref was not helped by the linesmen who were poor. Do they use the same linesmen every week? It might be useful so that they get some form of team spirit / understanding going. Perhaps someone could write to the FA and ask if the assessor was at last night's game. I'd like to know what they made of it all.

Or are we just moaning again and not doing anything about it? My word, how the FA are quaking in their boots at the thought of the BBS complaining about refs. Great, they make up 33% of England's FIFA refs, why don't you send them the tape of the game and ask them to do something about the standard of refering that could be on display in the World Cup. At least that is doing something. Yawn:eek:

Fallen Eagle
31-01-2002, 03:56 AM
Sorry. Given up smoking. Bit moody. Please forgive or send patch or gum...:sob: :sob: :sob: :sob:
Or fag.

Neil the Eagle
31-01-2002, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Fallen Eagle


... "many people" dislike Eastenders, it doesn't make it factually crap ...

Wanna bet? ;)

Fallen Eagle
31-01-2002, 05:34 AM
Personally my idea of hell is to be chained to the sofa with an endless tape of Eastenders is being played.

For my idea of heaven, well, digital tv has seen to that but we'll keep the chained to the sofa part..:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sorry Neil, it took me literally seconds to struggle to think of an analagy (ouch, that don't look right) an Eastenders is all my holiday ready brain could come up with.

Fallen Eagle
31-01-2002, 05:41 AM
By the way is the Great Banzai or whatever he's called obsessed with refs, this is the second thread on them he's started recently. Does he, as Blur once sang "like a man in uniform" (not that there's anything wrong with that he says covering his usually politically correct tracks and not trying to imply anything other than the fact that Fozzy Bear needs to worry about his team a little more and perhaps take some uppers - my name's Ben Elton, good night)

Grim Reaper
31-01-2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
If we had emerged victorious, there would have been NO complaints whatsoever directed at Mr Styles.

Isn't it strange that the poor referee always has vitriol heaped on him by supporters of teams that have been defeated.

On a general point, referees are only human and WILL make mistakes just like we do in all walks of life.We would NOT expect Mr Morrison to score from EVERY shot, we would NOT expect Mr Mullins to complete every pass so why should we expect referees to be absolutely spot on ALL the time ?

Trolley

I'm amazed at the front you continue to show after being embarrassed the last time you spewed out your bilge on the subject of refs. When asked straight question you fail to give straight answers i.e. Alan Gunn's officiating in teh FA Cup Final.

Bad refs are bad refs and I have pointed out time and again occasions when we have had diabolical refs and still won. You talk in cliches yet dress them up in this Corinthian lanaguage and actually spoil a lot of potentially good threats. You've done enough wind ups now. Can't you just leave fans to discuss issues.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get involved because after all this board's for everyone but is it really necessary to recycle the some old rhetoric every time you post?

Grim Reaper
31-01-2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
If we had emerged victorious, there would have been NO complaints whatsoever directed at Mr Styles.

Isn't it strange that the poor referee always has vitriol heaped on him by supporters of teams that have been defeated.

On a general point, referees are only human and WILL make mistakes just like we do in all walks of life.We would NOT expect Mr Morrison to score from EVERY shot, we would NOT expect Mr Mullins to complete every pass so why should we expect referees to be absolutely spot on ALL the time ?

Trolley

I'm amazed at the front you continue to show after being embarrassed the last time you spewed out your bilge on the subject of refs. When asked straight question you fail to give straight answers i.e. Alan Gunn's officiating in the FA Cup Final.

Bad refs are bad refs and I have pointed out time and again occasions when we have had diabolical refs and still won. You talk in cliches yet dress them up in this Corinthian lanaguage and actually spoil a lot of potentially good threats. You've done enough wind ups now. Can't you just leave fans to discuss issues.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get involved because after all this board's for everyone but is it really necessary to recycle the some old rhetoric every time you post?

Tony Humphreys
31-01-2002, 01:52 PM
In my opinion most refs are pretty useless, mainly because they rarely show much common sense or appreciation of the spirit of the game. However, I doubt if any of the poor sods actually affect results very often. (Certainly, apart from disallowing what appeared to be a good goal, I couldn't see that Mr Styles influenced Coventry's win, which seemed to me to be more a matter of luck and poor defending.)

eieieio steveb
31-01-2002, 09:06 PM
From an overall perspective, I can only re-iterate that referees being human cannot always perform at their peak of their abilities and some will of course err sometimes with far reaching consequences for a particular team.
We should NOT expect referees to be on top of their game EVERY game - They make mistakes and will continue to make mistakes just like we all do in our various walks of life.


Trolley if I made the mistakes he did at my work I would be at the job centre now
:p

Gooders
01-02-2002, 01:36 AM
Trolley, I wasn't for one minute suggesting that you don't have a right to express your opinion.

What I was saying was that regardless of the circumstances, when it comes to referees you always express the same one.

I just wish that sometimes you would stop trying to defend the indefensible. Styles is a target after the other night because he was ******* awful the other night. It's as simple as that.

The timekeeping is perhaps the most stark example of the man's incompetence.

In the second half there were 2 goals, 4 substitutions, a booking for time-wasting, a lengthy period of treatment to Gray (at least 2 minutes on it's own) when the Man of the Match kicked him up in the air and another fairly long stoppage when Morrison went down.

How in the hell did the prat come up with 2 minutes injury time? If he can't even perform basic tasks like timekeeping - what's he doing on the referees list at all?

Anyway, don't take it personally Trolley.

Can an invented persona take things personally? Now there's a thought.

Trolley
01-02-2002, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Gooders

Can an invented persona take things personally? Now there's a thought.

The inference that I am an "invented persona" is total and utter bilge and I refute these ridiculous allegations.

You are clearly a new member of the "Smear Campaign" which is prevalent on the BBS at the present time.

Such smears are a gross insult to someone who prides himself on being as honest as the day is long and who holds honesty and integrity in high store.

Utter poppycock.

Trolley
01-02-2002, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Grim Reaper


Trolley

I'm amazed at the front you continue to show after being embarrassed the last time you spewed out your bilge on the subject of refs. When asked straight question you fail to give straight answers i.e. Alan Gunn's officiating in teh FA Cup Final.

Bad refs are bad refs and I have pointed out time and again occasions when we have had diabolical refs and still won. You talk in cliches yet dress them up in this Corinthian lanaguage and actually spoil a lot of potentially good threats. You've done enough wind ups now. Can't you just leave fans to discuss issues.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get involved because after all this board's for everyone but is it really necessary to recycle the some old rhetoric every time you post?

Grim Reaper,

With respect I answered your comments concerning Mr Gunn - If you failed to see my reply that is a matter for your good self.

In broad terms, I refuted the ridiculous allegation that Mr Gunn "Cheated" in the FA Cup Final in the sense that he made a knowingly wrong decision for reasons of bias against Manchester United.
Do you really believe that with the eyes of the world prying into his every decision he would wish to give a decision in the full knoeledge that it was wrong ? - If your mind works in this fashion then I would suggest that you are totally and utterly misguided.

Finally, what IS recycled are is the scurrilous allegations that I post in order to provoke responses on the BBS.
I am entitled to my opinion and the fact that it is at variance with the vast majority does NOT mean that I am "Winding -Up" all and sundry.
Indeed, If I was this way inclined and it was in my nature to behave in this fashion, I would have extolled the virtues of Mr Smith, instead I was extremely critical of the poor chap.

Back to the drawing board young man.

Grim Reaper
03-02-2002, 08:56 PM
Trolley

I saw your post on Gunn and was frustrated by your side-stepping of the issue once again, which confirmed in my mind that you are indeed a wind up merchant. Most people worked it out a long time ago but it took me a little longer, I must admit.

If you honestly believe a Brighton fan (this is fact) didn't cheat when the physical evidence of a divot in the ground clearly in the penalty area was there for all to see then I would say it is YOU not me who is misguided.

Psychokiller
03-02-2002, 09:06 PM
Ok, lets ignore the ficticious incontinent pensioner and go back to the original subject of the thread.

My view is that referees are becoming markedly worse in standards as their public profiles are getting larger. After all, how many refs could any of us name say 20 years ago? The only one I remember from that time is Keith Hackett and that's only because he wrote a book. Problem is, these days referees even have their own newspaper columns and some (especially Mr Poll) seem to think that they're as big celebrities as the players. These referees are former accountants, schoolteachers and the like who have been lucky enough to get a few years being involved in the nation's favourite sport. Therefore they're going to relish every column inch in every gutter tabloid that they can get.

Trolley
03-02-2002, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Grim Reaper
Trolley

I saw your post on Gunn and was frustrated by your side-stepping of the issue once again, which confirmed in my mind that you are indeed a wind up merchant. Most people worked it out a long time ago but it took me a little longer, I must admit.



Your repeated claim that I am a "Wind-Up Merchant" is re-gurgitated old tosh.

As for Mr Gunn,I refute the allegation that I side stepped any issues.I stand firmly behind my claim that Mr Gunn did NOT cheat in the sense that he KNOWINGLY made an incorrect decision in front of the prying eyes of the World's coverage.

On reflection, Mr Gunn might have concluded that his decision was incorrect, however at the time he made an honesty decision in a split second moment in a highly charged emotional high profile match.

I certianly do NOT back the judgement of referees blindingly and refuse to admit that they err from time to time.I have stated categorically that they DO make mistakes but I refuse to admit that they are Cheats who make decisions on the basis of favouring one team or another.

If you cannot understand my standpoint on this matter this is a matter for yourself.

Trolley
03-02-2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Ok, lets ignore the ficticious incontinent pensioner and go back to the original subject of the thread.

.

I shall treat this unadulterated bilge with the contempt it deserves.

Walrus
04-02-2002, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Ok, lets ignore the ficticious incontinent pensioner and go back to the original subject of the thread.

My view is that referees are becoming markedly worse in standards as their public profiles are getting larger. After all, how many refs could any of us name say 20 years ago? The only one I remember from that time is Keith Hackett and that's only because he wrote a book. Problem is, these days referees even have their own newspaper columns and some (especially Mr Poll) seem to think that they're as big celebrities as the players. These referees are former accountants, schoolteachers and the like who have been lucky enough to get a few years being involved in the nation's favourite sport. Therefore they're going to relish every column inch in every gutter tabloid that they can get.

And if we think about it, the standards are only going to get worse. Why ? Because the national media-fuelled obsession with slagging the match officials off for every perceived injustice a team suffers is not exactly going to get hordes of quality applicants banging down the doors of the FA and Leagues is it ?

And also, the adage that it is easier to play football from a seat in the stands also holds true to refereeing. I would love to see Sky put a Refs-Eye camera into their coverage so all the pundits in the studio, the stands and in the armchairs get to see the same view the ref gets of an incident - AND ONLY SEE IT ONCE, AT REAL TIME SPEED. Now that would be a worthwhile use of technology IMVHO.

PalaceFan in Alabama
04-02-2002, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Trolley
We should NOT expect referees to be on top of their game EVERY game - They make mistakes and will continue to make mistakes just like we all do in our various walks of life.

Trolley, I am will have to take you to task on this one:grrr:

Yes we should expect them to be on top of their game EVERYTIME they walk on the pitch, as we do the players we support.

I know that they will never get everything correct, but it has come to a point when we need to have Professional Officials. They should be expected to attend clinics during the season and show the required fitness levels.

PalaceFan in Alabama
04-02-2002, 03:47 AM
Originally posted by Walrus
And if we think about it, the standards are only going to get worse. Why ? Because the national media-fuelled obsession with slagging the match officials off for every perceived injustice a team suffers is not exactly going to get hordes of quality applicants banging down the doors of the FA and Leagues is it ?

And also, the adage that it is easier to play football from a seat in the stands also holds true to refereeing. I would love to see Sky put a Refs-Eye camera into their coverage so all the pundits in the studio, the stands and in the armchairs get to see the same view the ref gets of an incident - AND ONLY SEE IT ONCE, AT REAL TIME SPEED. Now that would be a worthwhile use of technology IMVHO.

A excellent post:p

Walrus
04-02-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by PalaceFan in Alabama


Trolley, I am will have to take you to task on this one:grrr:

Yes we should expect them to be on top of their game EVERYTIME they walk on the pitch, as we do the players we support.

I know that they will never get everything correct, but it has come to a point when we need to have Professional Officials. They should be expected to attend clinics during the season and show the required fitness levels.

PFIA, the top echelon of match officials do have to pass regular fitness asessments in order to maintain their place. And before you ask I'm not aware that eye tests are included :D

sydney eagle
04-02-2002, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by Gooders
Trolley - your automatic defence of referees has become as boringly predictable as your whinging about people standing up. Change the record please.
. well said Gooders.:p

bald-eagle
04-02-2002, 04:23 PM
Ref's eye cameras would be very interesting but, I think, highly unlikely ever to be introduced. The referee's would no doubt see them as a tool with the sole purpose of discrediting them. I can see Hanson and Lawenson having a filed day.

This type of camera would not necassarily show what the referee sees. Since eyes move independantly of the head they would therefore not always show what the ref is actually looking at, thus laying the ref open to more critisism if the camera shows an incident that the ref doesn't appear to act on.

I think the referees already admit that they are fallable, like the rest of us, and I think that the introduction of such cameras woud serve no practical purpose. I don't think ref's are any worse than 15/20 years ago. In fact I think they're a lot better, they just get much more atention by tv which, when you think about it, is only going to highlight errors and inconsistency.

I think, if we're going down the new technology route, we ought to be using it to aid the referees more directly rather than simply trying to duplicate the same view of an incident. Perhaps by providing the 4th official with instant reviews of incidents, such as off the ball clashes and goal line action, we would gain more useful help. There has already been work carried out on a "magic eye" type machine for offsides. This would have a huge practical benefit if a consistent result could be achieved. Just look at clintons "offside" goals of the last few weeks!

Perhaps a push to help referees understand the dynamics of a foul could be introduced as well. It seems to me that players are becoming so adept at appearing to be fouled that the ref's are finding it hard to distinguish between real fouls and dives. For example:- Why do players' legs fold up when someone touches their back? Why is it that when a goalkeeper comes for the ball and misses it the strikers legs come together at the heel and he topples over ?

PalaceFan in Alabama
04-02-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by bald-eagle
here has already been work carried out on a "magic eye" type machine for offsides. This would have a huge practical benefit if a consistent result could be achieved. Just look at clintons "offside" goals of the last few weeks!

It failed because the camera could not tell what direction the ball had been played:eek:, but as I have already stated do you realise the cost of having this equipment setup on both sides of a ground and who is going to pay for it; the club or the FL/FA?

brighton_eagle
04-02-2002, 04:42 PM
I think the offside decision is one of he hardest to make. A linesman must be looking at two or sometimes even three places at one time, all the time. It is inevitable that errors will occur, and I think we all accept that.

However, what really annoys me about offside decisions is those cases where the flag comes up late. Why does this need to happen? A player is either on or off side when a ball is passed. The lino should make the decision at the time the ball is passed. Not after the player has received the pass and run into a good position.

Lastly, yes, of course refs will make mistakes. But Styles was a very poor referee against Coventry. There is no excuse for some of his decisions, and I don't pay good money to come and watch a game for it to be ruined by his ineptitude.

GreatGonzo
04-02-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Walrus


PFIA, the top echelon of match officials do have to pass regular fitness asessments in order to maintain their place. And before you ask I'm not aware that eye tests are included :D

And correct me if i am wrong but didn't the majority of referees FAIL this test just before the season started? (fitnees not eye, although i doubt they would have passed that one either)

Beanie
04-02-2002, 05:41 PM
The person I really blame for the standard of refs is Mr Phillip Don. Any time he is on the TV / Radio he reminds me an ostrich - head in sand so he can't see any problem. A few points -

1 I don't believe that ANY ref or linesman out there sets out to be bad or biased

2 I accept that any person in any job can have a "bad day at the office"

3 I accept that every ref does his best and that, as far as is possible, he is consistent

4 I accept that it is human nature to have a go when you see somebody do a bad job in nay wlak of life.

BUT -

Football needs to look at the way other sports work as ask why some of them are better. Instead of just making excuses, which wear thin at times, find out how it can be done better. I would look to American Football. Some of our American contributors can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think football has this to learn two things.

* Officials work in teams, the same each week, meaning that they get to know what each will do.

* During the week they review each others games, discuss borderline or difficult decision so that they can be as sure as possible not only that each official is consistent, but that each team of officials acts in the same way as other teams.

I work in training - and when I do Management training two points I make loud and clear are - if you get it wrong admit it YOURSELF, don't wait for somebody else to point out your mistakes, and certainly don't try to pretend it didn't happen and second, most people give respect to the person "in charge" - but it can be lost in a second if you are unreasonable, appear to not know the job the staff are doing or are seen to be "unfair". Once lost it is a massive task to get it back.

Our refs - and Mr Don in particular - seem to demand respect just for putting on the kit. Sorry, it no longer works TOO MANY bad days at too many offices, and too many officials who don't understand the game (as opposed to the rules). Until the referess regain the respect there will always be somebody having a go, and it is now in their court to do something about.

May not be entirely fair, but it is the case.

Grim Reaper
04-02-2002, 06:38 PM
Nice one Beanie.

Shame Trolley's going to ruin the general maturity and quality of this thread (when people have concentrated on the real issues of refereeing etc) and post some bilge about how great refs are.

bald-eagle
04-02-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by PalaceFan in Alabama


It failed because the camera could not tell what direction the ball had been played:eek:, but as I have already stated do you realise the cost of having this equipment setup on both sides of a ground and who is going to pay for it; the club or the FL/FA?

Surely it's just a matter of time before they solve the problem of ball direction? We can get cameras to calculate speeds of cars and read number plates, surely its just a case of fine tuning the system to compare subsequent frames, or whatever the digital equivalent is?

No I don't have any idea of the costs involved, was that rhetorical or do you have figures from somewhere? Perhaps the tv companies could pay for it and then have rights for the use of the film after the match? Perhaps the clubs? How much do the clubs think 3 points instead of 1 or none is worth? Could literally be many millions if relegation or entry into the champions league etc etc hangs on a single decision during the last game of the season?

Refereeing is undoubtedly harder now than 15/20 years ago. It's much faster and players are very often trying to con the ref into giving wrong decisions more than yesteryear. Who is more to blame, the "cheating" players or the ref who is taken in by the con?

The players all want more consistency (as we all do) but then still try and take advantage of situations using all sorts of "professional" techniques. Leeds, in the 60's/70's probably started the ref baiting which is seen at virtually every game now. Liverpool and Man U carried it through the 80's and 90's respectively but now we even see it from the likes of Coventry?!?! The Italians and South Americans were lambasted in the 80's and 90's for their theatrical dives and rolls. Now, after we all saw it on world cup coverage, we're doing it over here it suddenly becomes acceptable, unless of course your team is on the recieving end of it.
I know the money today puts more pressure on the game but I do think it's not just the refs' who need to look what they're doing and how honest they're being.

Elephant with mouse gyp
04-02-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
These referees are former accountants, schoolteachers and the like

Exactly, Elleray being the scumiest example of the lot. One trend I have noticed is that not as many as some years ago seem to come from among our good friends in the police force. Doesn't stop them being part-time coppers though.

I'm afraid I think we should start off with the idea that a ref is a c unt unless he proves otherwise. If you think that's harsh, ask yourself what kind of person would really want to be a ref? Not the Sunday league ones, who deserve some credit, and are often there genuinely to help out, but the ones who have serious ambition in this direction.

If they just want to be involved in football, they could choose something else, like coaching. But no, they deliberately choose to become the person who blows his shrill whistle and orders more talented people around. Where's Fan when you need him?

Trolley
04-02-2002, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Grim Reaper
Nice one Beanie.

Shame Trolley's going to ruin the general maturity and quality of this thread (when people have concentrated on the real issues of refereeing etc) and post some bilge about how great refs are.

If you had taken the trouble to read some of my posts you would have noticed that I have NOT stated "How great Refs" are - I have repeatedly claimed that referees are no different from all of us good folk in as much as they do make mistakes and one should NOT expect them to be spot-on with each and every decision.

What I do NOT accept is that referees cheat and knowingly make incorrect decisions due to bias towards a particular team.

There are some people who continually berate referees and linesman but have NEVER performed these roles and indeed are not conversant with all the laws of the game.

From my perspective, I am as bemused as the next supporter at times and mutter my abhorrance at certain decisions but I am only too aware that such decisions are made in a split second without the benefit of numerous cameras and slow motion replays.

hong_kong_hg
04-02-2002, 11:13 PM
May I add a perspective to this debate from a "linesman"'s perspective. I have had the good fortune to run the line in many games over the last four years or so in Hong Kong and Dubai at competetive local league and cup games.

It really is not difficult to keep up with the play. As a linesman, you should always be level with the last defender (except the goalkeeper). This makes it particularly easy to identify when an attacking player is offside. All you need is a modicum of fitness - the ability to run down the side of the pitch in line with the last defender. It is not difficult.

You do not need to be looking at the player kicking the ball forward - even at 100 metres it takes only 1/3 of a second for the sound of the kick to reach the linesman. Eyes on the last defender, in line, and you can accurately judge an offside correctly every time. I have made some crap decisions - but these have been due to my own incompetence at reacting to the defending team coaches/supporters raising hell when they perceive an offside and me stupidly raising my flag without thinking. Premiership or first division standard referees/linesmen - I would expect no such errors.

I really cannot understand the ineptitude of the officials at the highest level - even when I watch Premier league games there are often several blatently incorrect decisions. From the referee I can understand but the linesman has no excuse. At all. If he is not level with play, don't raise your flag!

Walrus
05-02-2002, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by GreatGonzo


And correct me if i am wrong but didn't the majority of referees FAIL this test just before the season started? (fitnees not eye, although i doubt they would have passed that one either)

Sorry Gonzo, I have to correct you. Almost all the Select Group refs exceeded the fitness standard in the pre season training. They also have regular check ups during the season.

Any that did not reach the standard in pre season get a chance to make it in the early season check ups, and if they don't, they are out.

Psychokiller
11-02-2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Ok, lets ignore the ficticious incontinent pensioner and go back to the original subject of the thread.

My view is that referees are becoming markedly worse in standards as their public profiles are getting larger. After all, how many refs could any of us name say 20 years ago? The only one I remember from that time is Keith Hackett and that's only because he wrote a book. Problem is, these days referees even have their own newspaper columns and some (especially Mr Poll) seem to think that they're as big celebrities as the players. These referees are former accountants, schoolteachers and the like who have been lucky enough to get a few years being involved in the nation's favourite sport. Therefore they're going to relish every column inch in every gutter tabloid that they can get.

Just thought I would reactivate this thread. Did anyone read the story in the News of the World where Poll has admitted to doing just what I accused him of in this post - that is sending off big name players in order to make a name for himself! He must be kicked out of football immediately!

PalaceFan in Alabama
11-02-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Just thought I would reactivate this thread. Did anyone read the story in the News of the World where Poll has admitted to doing just what I accused him of in this post - that is sending off big name players in order to make a name for himself! He must be kicked out of football immediately!

Did anyone read the article about him letting players using foul and abusive language, which was loud and clear to those in the press box let alone the paying public. He was told to F**K OFF twice by an up and coming young midfielder from an East London club :eek:

So Psychokiller, you now wish us to consider you as our own tea cup reader :D :D :p
This is a real gem "where Poll has admitted to doing just what I accused him of in this post", when can I pop around for a reading :D

Psychokiller
11-02-2002, 05:37 PM
PFiA - Did you actually read the article?

Thought not:rolleyes:

Still, I could always blame a member of the royal family then you'll have a real excuse to change this into a 'let's ridicule Psychokiller's views' thread.

Benzhiyi
28-04-2002, 03:27 AM
Anyone see Ipswich v Man Utd today?

Surprise number one: Cretinous penalty given to Man Utd. Surprise number two: The referee giving this season-turning penalty in front of a huge Sky audience: Rob Styles, ladies and gents.

Sorry to open an old thread, but this guy really does love the limelight.

And have you seen Mike Riley is refereeing the Cup Final? That should be eventful..... :rolleyes:

sydney eagle
28-04-2002, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Benzhiyi
Anyone see Ipswich v Man Utd today?

Surprise number one: Cretinous penalty given to Man Utd. Surprise number two: The referee giving this season-turning penalty in front of a huge Sky audience: Rob Styles, ladies and gents.

Sorry to open an old thread, but this guy really does love the limelight.

And have you seen Mike Riley is refereeing the Cup Final? That should be eventful..... :rolleyes: That was a disgraceful penalty and Van Whathesknee should of been given a yellow card right away. Marcus bent got sandwiched in the box in the second half,not much in it but if he gave that ridiculous penalty to the manc scum then that had to be one too surely.

Walrus
28-04-2002, 04:12 AM
Originally posted by Benzhiyi
Anyone see Ipswich v Man Utd today?

Surprise number one: Cretinous penalty given to Man Utd. Surprise number two: The referee giving this season-turning penalty in front of a huge Sky audience: Rob Styles, ladies and gents.

Sorry to open an old thread, but this guy really does love the limelight.



Q: If said "foul" had been on a Palace player in the box during a game, would you have shouted "Penalty" ?

A: Probably.

Still, it's well up there with 30/70 Penalty awards that seem to go the way of loud mouthed ref-griefing teams like Moan Utd.

Benzhiyi
28-04-2002, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Walrus


Q: If said "foul" had been on a Palace player in the box during a game, would you have shouted "Penalty" ?

A: Probably.

Still, it's well up there with 30/70 Penalty awards that seem to go the way of loud mouthed ref-griefing teams like Moan Utd.

Honest to god, no. There have been three or four times this season that Dougie has gone to ground ridiculously easily and I hate it, as I posted in another thread I hate it when players dive in games I play on Sunday morning and I even hate when my own team do it. Of course, Van Nistelrooy didn't dive, he stumbled over his own foot (as they showed tonight on the Premiership) but Styles could just have easily awarded Ipswich two second half penalties where Moan U defenders DID make contact.

Oh, and I wanted Man U to win because I hate Arsenal more, but I still didn't applaud the penalty decision as I thought it was diabolical, even on first viewing! Sorry Walrus!

Gooders
28-04-2002, 04:22 AM
I think that Moan United, Liverpool and possibly Newcastle are the only three teams in the country that would have been given that penalty.

As soon as he went down I said "he's tripped over his own feet" and that was exactly what had happened - the two appeals that Ipswich had in quick succession in the second half were far more obvious penalties, but of course there wasn't the remotest chance that Styles would give them because he hasn't got the guts.

If we were in Ipswich's position and that penalty had been given against us, I would be distraught tonight.

Hope you have a restless tonight Mr Styles, because you don't deserve to sleep easy after that decision.

Bottler. :grrr:

Walrus
28-04-2002, 04:46 AM
Originally posted by Benzhiyi


Honest to god, no. There have been three or four times this season that Dougie has gone to ground ridiculously easily and I hate it, as I posted in another thread I hate it when players dive in games I play on Sunday morning and I even hate when my own team do it. Of course, Van Nistelrooy didn't dive, he stumbled over his own foot (as they showed tonight on the Premiership) but Styles could just have easily awarded Ipswich two second half penalties where Moan U defenders DID make contact.

Oh, and I wanted Man U to win because I hate Arsenal more, but I still didn't applaud the penalty decision as I thought it was diabolical, even on first viewing! Sorry Walrus!

Fair play BenZ :p I've only seen it once, and first thought was "Play on" but you do see that sort of Pen given - true, usually when The Usual Suspects are playing :o

Let's hope you see hardly any Pens in the World Cup, and games finishing with 7 a side due to the new FIFA directives on "simulation" being strictly enforced.

Not likely. Pity, as the conning of officials and the "winning" of attacking free kicks and penalties is strangling the game. Anyone watch Hockey ? It's all about winning those Penalty Corner things - goals from open play are a bonus. I'd love to see a rule change whereby pens can't be given when a forward trips over the goalie when he's poked the ball toward the touch line and fallen in a heap over the hapless keeper. Dunno what you'd give instead though
:rolleyes:

pete eagle
28-04-2002, 02:00 PM
So Van Nistelrooy trips over himself and gets a penalty for it - ridiculous decision, there was no Ipswich hand anywhere near him.

But Darren Bent gets kicked in the crutch by Wes Brown and then Marcus Bent gets a great big whack from behind from Mikael Sivelstre and both of these are not penalties:rolleyes:

And the wisdom put forth by Andy Townsend for this. Van Nistelrooy fell over properly while the two bent's did not:rolleyes: . I think that is called being professional and trying to carry on but that is tradition long lost in the Premiership these days

Trolley
28-04-2002, 02:17 PM
My good self has NOT seen the incidents in question, however to suggest that Mr Styles was biased towards Man Utd is ridiculous.

If indeed, he made mistakes during the course of the game, they were honest mistakes and I am sure that if he sees the replays and deems that he erred he will be distraught, for NO referee likes to be exposed in this manner.

Referees are only human and with a fast flowing game not helped by players who seek to gain an advantage by attempting to influence decisions, mistakes are undoubtably made.

We all err from time to time and referres are NO exception.One would NOT expect players to be 100% foolproof throughout the course of a game so why should we expect such infallibility from referees ?

Pete B
28-04-2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
My good self has NOT seen the incidents in question, however to suggest that Mr Styles was biased towards Man Utd is ridiculous.

If indeed, he made mistakes during the course of the game, they were honest mistakes and I am sure that if he sees the replays and deems that he erred he will be distraught, for NO referee likes to be exposed in this manner.

Referees are only human and with a fast flowing game not helped by players who seek to gain an advantage by attempting to influence decisions, mistakes are undoubtably made.

We all err from time to time and referres are NO exception.One would NOT expect players to be 100% foolproof throughout the course of a game so why should we expect such infallibility from referees ?

Trolley I Agree that Styles is not biased but he is incompetent. His names crops up every time there is controversy (Millwall v Watford, Palace v Coventry, Ipswich v Man U and many more). He must be removed from the list of referees but knowing the people that run our game he will no doubt be promoted to the FIFA list soon

Gooders
28-04-2002, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
I haven't seen the incidents in question. However, to suggest that Mr Styles was biased towards Man Utd is ridiculous.



For the umpteenth time, no one is suggesting he is deliberately biased.

We are saying that he is a) incompetent and b) lacking the bottle to give (or not give) the difficult decisions involving the big clubs.

That's all.

By the way, I couldn't resist the urge to de-Trolleyise your quote above. Hope you don't mind.

;)

Trolley
28-04-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Pete B


Trolley I Agree that Styles is not biased but he is incompetent.

With respect, the people who are best qualified to judge whether Mr Styles is competent or not the likes of your good self and I but the assessors and clearly they have concluded that on merit he deserves to referee games in the Premiership.

Referees WILL err and some will have "Bad Games" but any mistakes are honest ones and NOT as a result of any bias towards a particular team.

Split second decisions by their very nature are open to error and any referee certainly does NOT wish to be pilloried as a result of umpteen slow motion replays which prove that he made a costly mistake.

Psychokiller
28-04-2002, 05:42 PM
Once again Trolley comes out with the same tedious load of crap that he always spouts whenever anyone with any sort of authority (whether referees, the police or judges) is criticised. Basically this referee has all but relegated Ipswich, certainly he has cost them a valuable point with what was a woeful decision. Referees are now professional and paid a fat wage to get it right and this one so obviously didn't. When players make mistakes they often get fined by the FA (for 'bringing the game into disrepute - something the FA have been doing since their formation). I think that refs should also be fined a weeks wages when making scandalously innaccurate decisions like the one made yesterday.

Cue Trolley with some more pro-referee bulls**t.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller


Cue Trolley with some more pro-referee bulls**t.

If you analyse my opinions on this subject, you will conclude that I do NOT support referees "Carte Blanche" and I have consistently stated that they DO err from time to time like we all do in our various walks of life.

What I will NOT accept is that referres make decisions that are knowingly incorrect as has been inferred in various posts.

Referees are subject to assessors and if their marks are NOT acceptable they pay the consequences - Mr Rennie being a case in point when he was relegated from the Premier List but has now returned.

Players do NOT score with every shot,Players do NOT find their team mates with a pass on every occasion - We should NOT expect referres to be 100% correct on EVERY decision particularly as they have to make split second decisions in an exceedingly fast moving game.

Of course referees cost teams points (They also gain teams points !) but in the final analysis this is the nature of the game and as managers often state, decisions tend to even themselves up over the course of a season.

Psychokiller
28-04-2002, 05:57 PM
This ref could have made up for his mistake by awarding Ipswich their perfectly legitimate penalty. It is obvious that he did not do so because he was afraid of the consequence. Ferguson holds a lot of influence on the FA and the Premiership - I bet all it takes is a minimal amount of pressure from this red faced Scottish arsehole to get the FA to relegate a referee from the Premiership list.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
This ref could have made up for his mistake by awarding Ipswich their perfectly legitimate penalty. It is obvious that he did not do so because he was afraid of the consequence. Ferguson holds a lot of influence on the FA and the Premiership - I bet all it takes is a minimal amount of pressure from this red faced Scottish arsehole to get the FA to relegate a referee from the Premiership list.

If the referee firmly believed that Ipswich had deserved a penalty he would have awarded it without fear or favour.

I do NOT believe for one minute that the likes of Mr Ferguson can get referees relegated from the Premiership on the basis of a single decision, indeed on any basis whatsoever.
It is ludicrous to believe that this is the case.

The notion that Mr Styles failed to award a penalty for fear of such consequences is risible in the extreme and an insult to his integrity.

Referres get demoted on performances as appraised by assessors and they certainly do NOT knowingly make incorrect decisions for they are fully aware that a string of poor marks will mean certian demotion.

Referres are only human and as such will err from time to time - They always have done and they will continue to do so.

Psychokiller
28-04-2002, 06:17 PM
Once again, Trolley proves his utter ignorance to the facts. Did you watch the highlights of this particular game? Thought not.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Once again, Trolley proves his utter ignorance to the facts. Did you watch the highlights of this particular game? Thought not.

Once again you have failed to grasp the thrust of my posts or indeed read them thoroughly.

I stated categorically that my good self has NOT seen the incidents in question and indeed have NEVER stated that Mr Styles was RIGHT in his decisions that have courted such controversy.

I have however stated that any mistakes made (If indeed they were) would have been HONEST mistakes and NOT decisions made by the referee on the basis of bias towards a team or for fear of demotion from the Premership List.

My comments transcended this particular game and were designed to look at the wider picture of referees and the split second decisions they have to make in a fast flowing game.

Psychokiller
28-04-2002, 06:28 PM
Well, watch the f***ing incidents before coming out with this sort of crap.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Well, watch the f***ing incidents before coming out with this sort of crap.

The comments that I have made hold sway irrespective of the incidents in that particular game so there is no chance whatsoever that I will change my opinions based on the decisions that have courted such controversy.

I would have thought that you could distinguish between the "Wider Picture" and the "Small screen view" of a particular Premiership Match.

Gooders
28-04-2002, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Trolley


Referees WILL err and some will have "Bad Games" but any mistakes are honest ones and NOT as a result of any bias towards a particular team.



FOR THE LAST ******* TIME, NO ONE IS SUGGESTING DELIBERATE BIAS - JUST INCOMPETENCE.

'kin ell.

:grrr:

Trolley
28-04-2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Gooders
Originally posted by Trolley


FOR THE LAST ******* TIME, NO ONE IS SUGGESTING DELIBERATE BIAS - JUST INCOMPETENCE.

'kin ell.

:grrr:

With respect, your good self stated categorically that in your belief only Man Utd,Newcastle or Liverpool would have been awarded that penalty so I have concluded that the inference to be drawn is that the referee is somehow biased in favour of these clubs.

If you are suggesting that the referee is "Incompetent", I would assume therefore that he would be "Incompetent" with regard to ALL clubs not merely the three in question.

PalaceFan in Alabama
28-04-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Once again Trolley comes out with the same tedious load of crap that he always spouts whenever anyone with any sort of authority (whether referees, the police or judges) is criticised. Basically this referee has all but relegated Ipswich, certainly he has cost them a valuable point with what was a woeful decision. Referees are now professional and paid a fat wage to get it right and this one so obviously didn't. When players make mistakes they often get fined by the FA (for 'bringing the game into disrepute - something the FA have been doing since their formation). I think that refs should also be fined a weeks wages when making scandalously innaccurate decisions like the one made yesterday.

OK, so do we assume that you do not take the other track with regard to authoirty:p

Let us assume that you are correct and he gave the penalty to Moan Utd, because he is a closet supporter, surely even you would have to admit that the FA would have to much to lose to allow him to be in charge of this game? If he was wrong, then I agree with you he should be taken in front of the FA and ask to explain, but please understand that there are at least 3 or 4 other FA members at the game and this together with the 3 remaining members of his team will submit a report. These together with any complaints from Ipswich will result in the FA reviewing the tape of the game and reveiwing the reports.
Now if you expect anything to come of it, I have a pier on the South Coast I would like to sell you :eek:

You have a team in place to win the league and a team fighting to stay up, the only real way to resolve this would be to replay the game, but you and I both know that will never happen.

Just as a side issue, during my visit to Dublin with the USSF; there was a discussion started by the USSF about Officials having help with offside and penalties :eek:
The opinion of the FL Managers and those players playing in Europe was to leave things alone, TV coverage would have to be at every ground and it would have to be total coverage.
What would the fan reaction be, if the game was delayed for the numerious incidents that happen during the average game?
What would you do to stop a manager from asking for every tackle or offside to be reviewed, he could take the other team out of the game by stopping the flow of the game (surely you all still remember the Sheff ? WBA game)! One suggestion was to make the team that appealed and if their appeal was turned down give up a sub, but what do you do if they have used their subs? We do not have time outs to give up?

Before you ask for this, please think about it! I have watched a college game here in the states where they used the local TV Station to cover the game and you think we have problems NOW!

Remember it is his interpretation of the incident, also remember that he does not have to stop the game because a foul has been committed or for any infingement of the rules, which leads us back to interpretation and that is their escape clause!

pete eagle
28-04-2002, 07:29 PM
Trolley, having watched the penalty decision 3 or 4 times, watching it at normal speed there is no evidence of contact between Bramble and Van Nistelrooy. And if you watch after he gave the penalty, Styles was surrounded by Ipswich players who asked him what the penalty was for and he did not tell them which they are entitled to know. Van Nistelrooy 'fell over' and he gave the penalty.
Now having watched the Ipswich penalty claims, both players went down in pain, especially Marcus Bent as he had taken a full blooded whack from behind, now this is a clear example of cheating and it should be a penalty but neither Styles or his linesman gave the penalty for either the foul on Darren or marcus Bent.

It was disgraceful refereeing and it has cost Ipswich 10-15 million.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by pete eagle
It was disgraceful refereeing and it has cost Ipswich 10-15 million.

My good self will have to view the controversial incidents before passing comment on the specific refereeing decisions, however to infer that the referee cheated is beyond the pale.

The referee may or may not have made grave mistakes but if so they were HONEST mistakes and he will be distraught if he concludes that he erred if and when he views the incidents on television.

Finally it is ludicrous to suggest that the decisions cost Ipswich 10 - 15 Million.This was just one of the many matches that this club have played in the Premiership and the return of a mere 36 points to date speaks volumes.Perhaps some of the points that they gained were as a result of refereeing mistakes which worked in their favour !

pete eagle
28-04-2002, 07:42 PM
I said it was disgraceful refereeing not that he cheated.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by pete eagle
I said it was disgraceful refereeing not that he cheated.

You stated "That this is a clear example of cheating" - I assumed rightly or wrongly that you were referring to the referee.

If I have assumed incorrectly then kindly enlighten me and inform me as to the context in which the words were used.

Thank You

pete eagle
28-04-2002, 07:56 PM
i was referring to Wes Brown who kicked Darren Bent in the groin area and Mikael Silvestre who kicked Marcus Bent in the back of his legs.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by pete eagle
i was referring to Wes Brown who kicked Darren Bent in the groin area and Mikael Silvestre who kicked Marcus Bent in the back of his legs.

Without viewing the incidents I cannot pass comment on the specifics of the cases in question.

However if indeed Messrs Brown and Silvestre DID indeed act as you have portrayed then I would not strictly term this "Cheating" but let us not go down the road where semantics overshadow some of the arguments.

No doubt the assessor will have a view of the incidents and if in his opinion the referee made grave mistakes, he will no doubt reflect these in the marks he awards.

PalaceFan in Alabama
28-04-2002, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
No doubt the assessor will have a view of the incidents and if in his opinion the referee made grave mistakes, he will no doubt reflect these in the marks he awards.

Is this after he has had a drink with Ferguson, come on Trolls me old china, no assessor is going out of his way to hang one of their own. I will be surprised if it is even mentioned, interpretation is the name of the game. He will state "I saw it this way", so end of story; close ranks and screw them all! One more victory for the establishment, OK PK your turn :D

Maidstoned Eagle
28-04-2002, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Trolley

No doubt the assessor will have a view of the incidents and if in his opinion the referee made grave mistakes, he will no doubt reflect these in the marks he awards.

The referee made three very poor decisions yesterday, these decisions will directly contribute to Ipswich's survival in the Premiership, their future income and maybe the outcome of the Championship.

He will not be brought to book by the assessor, the assessors are seemingly there to defend, not accuse the referees. The system stinks.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Maidstoned Eagle


The referee made three very poor decisions yesterday, these decisions will directly contribute to Ipswich's survival in the Premiership, their future income and maybe the outcome of the Championship.

He will not be brought to book by the assessor, the assessors are seemingly there to defend, not accuse the referees. The system stinks.

With respect this is unadulterated poppycock.

I suppose your good self would discount all the other games in which Ipswich have played and for which their points tally is a mere 36.
No doubt you would conclude that their meagre total is a direct result of disgraceful refereeing decisions !

Whether a team survives or is relegated does NOT hinge on a single game or refereeing decision, it hinges on how they perform over the ENTIRE season.

Your comments on the assesors beggars belief - I suppose you will claim that referees who have been demoted were demoted by Premiership managers with a "Hot Line" to the FA !

New_Malden_Eagle
28-04-2002, 08:42 PM
It's the second dodgy penalty Styles given them this season, against Sunderland Giggs ran straight into a Sunderland defender, fell over, and to no-one's suprise yet again he gave the Manc Scum the decision.

Trolley
28-04-2002, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by New_Malden_Eagle
It's the second dodgy penalty Styles given them this season, against Sunderland Giggs ran straight into a Sunderland defender, fell over, and to no-one's suprise yet again he gave the Manc Scum the decision.

For all we know, Mr Styles might have angered a number of Man Utd players and Mr Ferguson for decisions that they believed should have been awarded in their favour but were given in favour of the opposition.

I do not belong to the "School of Thought" that Man Utd are awarded more decisions in their favour than other clubs.

New_Malden_Eagle
28-04-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Trolley

I do not belong to the "School of Thought" that Man Utd are awarded more decisions in their favour than other clubs.

Well learn up! :)
There was a study a while back that analysed borderline decisions, statistics of free kicks given to home and away teams, etc. and guess who came top of the "lucky" list....

Trolley
28-04-2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by New_Malden_Eagle


Well learn up! :)
There was a study a while back that analysed borderline decisions, statistics of free kicks given to home and away teams, etc. and guess who came top of the "lucky" list....

I would be interested to know when this study was conducted, by whom it was conducted, over what period the statistics were analysed and some more details as to the study brief.

I certainly do NOT belong to the "School of Thought" that Man Utd are favoured by officials and if a comprehehsive study has revealed that they received the "Lion's share" of borderline decisions this must have been a matter of judgement for the officials concerned and not as a result of any bias towards that club.

New_Malden_Eagle
28-04-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
this must have been a matter of judgement for the officials concerned and not as a result of any bias towards that club.

Probably true, but it still pisses me off!

PalaceFan in Alabama
28-04-2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Trolley
I would be interested to know when this study was conducted, by whom it was conducted, over what period the statistics were analysed and some more details as to the study brief.

It was carried out by everyone who dislikes Moan Utd :rolleyes: I am sure there are thousands out there who would more than pleased to give you "their opinion" as to why they 'do appear to get the rub of the green' or maybe 'God' is a Moan Utd supporter? Maybe that is the answer, I do believe he is suppose to be 'RC' and we know that a very high percentage of Moan Utd supporters are of that cloth!

Trolls me old china, why do you defend the undefenable, us officials know going in that we will be called every name in the book! If you do not have a thick skin, then you should never become an official! At the end of the day, you can only give what you see and then it depends on your view of the incident.
It is very easy to sit in front of your TV and make calls or find fault with those given during the game and none are worse than myself! Ask SS about my ranting and raving during a game! Remember it is easy to look in, but much harder to be in there!

Benzhiyi
28-04-2002, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by Trolley


I would be interested to know when this study was conducted, by whom it was conducted, over what period the statistics were analysed and some more details as to the study brief.

I certainly do NOT belong to the "School of Thought" that Man Utd are favoured by officials and if a comprehehsive study has revealed that they received the "Lion's share" of borderline decisions this must have been a matter of judgement for the officials concerned and not as a result of any bias towards that club.

It was (I believe) done by Match of the Day magazine a couple of years back, and used OPTA stats for something like two seasons on every club in the league. Very accurate it seemed to me too!

pedro
28-04-2002, 11:11 PM
Mike Reilly produces more cards than Clintons whilst each season Graham Poll tries to win as many man of the match awards as he can by always getting himself in the centre of everything. However they are nothing compared to that w****r Styles who is so imcompetant that he would still be out of his depth refereeing a Sunday League game on the Purley Way. As for Man Utd searching for an assistant for Fergie, Mr Styles please take one step forward, to$$er !

PalaceFan in Alabama
04-05-2002, 07:31 PM
I see that everyones top Referee is in the middle for the FA Cup :eek:
Do not disagree with the first yellow, but please tell me why Parlour has not gotten a card ? One of the problems with awarding a yellow so early in the game is you must continue in the same vain!. Now the prick has given a yellow card for a nothing foul and the Chelsea player made a meal of it :veryangry
All one can expect from from an official is to be consistent :hmph: