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Il Padrino
16-09-2009, 03:44 PM
NICKY CARLE'S World Cup anxiety could be eased by a return to his former club Newcastle Jets.

Jets owner Con Constantine confirmed last night he was ready to bring the Socceroos star ''home'' for a guest spell which would give him precious match fitness leading into the next transfer window on January 1. Carle knows he needs to play regularly to remain in Pim Verbeek's World Cup plans.

Carle, 27, has this season fallen out of favour at his English second-tier side Crystal Palace, where manager Neil Warnock has intimated he is free to leave if the price is right. Warnock blocked Carle's initial exit plan - a move to former South Korean champions FC Seoul - and following the closure of the recent transfer period his chances of finding a way out of Selhurst Park have narrowed considerably.

It is understood FC Seoul, who had their $520,000 offer for a season-long loan deal rejected by Warnock in July, are likely to make another bid in January. Japanese giants Urawa Red Diamonds also sent scouts to watch Carle during the recent friendly international between Australia and South Korea in Seoul, while there has been some interest from clubs in the United Arab Emirates, where the transfer window remains open until the end of this month.

Carle was again an unused substitute last weekend despite Crystal Palace slumping to a 4-0 home defeat against Scunthorpe United, and with the Socceroos having three Asian Cup qualifiers and a prestige friendly against The Netherlands during the next four months, his selection chances hinge on being able to find regular first-team football as soon as possible.

The solution could be a return to Newcastle, where he still owns a house. Carle left the Jets 2 years ago to pursue his European dreams but has always made it clear if he returned to Australia he would give his former club first call on his services.

With the Jets struggling in the attacking third and with the club pulling the lowest crowds (average 6357) in the competition, Constantine admits the timing is perfect to bring the club's favourite son back home.

''Nick is interested in coming back, and we're interested in having him,'' Constantine said. ''Nick loves the club, and I don't have a bad word to say about the boy. He's always welcome back here, and obviously he'd bring a few fans to the games. We're talking, and if we can do a deal it would be terrific. But it all comes down to dollars and cents.''

At this stage, Carle would be able to play nine games as a guest player, although it's understood the club will lobby Football Federation Australia to make an exemption in the interests of the World Cup campaign and allow him to play up to 13 games. Whether Crystal Palace will allow him to leave on loan for free remains a sticking point, but Warnock understands Carle needs to be in the shop window if the Eagles are to have any chance of selling him permanently and recouping at least part of $1.5 million transfer fee they paid Bristol City 18 months ago.

If Newcastle are to do a deal, Carle is not likely to return until after the Socceroos double-header against The Netherlands and Oman in mid-October.

Meanwhile, Constantine is confident the Jets crowds will improve now the Newcastle Knights have finished their NRL season.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/soccer/carle-express-way-can-lead-nick-to-socceroos-via-newcastle-20090917-frvu.html

Roadblock
16-09-2009, 03:53 PM
he's still a key member of of our squad. don't think we'd let him leave unless we got a fee for him.

Thanet Eagle
16-09-2009, 03:58 PM
Should be in our starting eleven.

Matt_Hep
16-09-2009, 03:59 PM
Hopefully Warnock will be out before too long and a manager that's more creative can make best use of him...feel sorry for the lad, heaps of talent but completely wrong manager - as is the case for so many of our squad

Timbo
16-09-2009, 04:05 PM
Why isn't he being given a chance to show what he can do?

palace ray
16-09-2009, 04:07 PM
i don't undrstand what he's done wrong? why don't he ever start?

Dal
16-09-2009, 04:08 PM
He should start, its not as if anyone in the team is playing well enough to keep him out of the side.

limited_edition
16-09-2009, 04:11 PM
He should start, its not as if anyone in the team is playing well enough to keep him out of the side.Agreed.

Il Padrino
16-09-2009, 04:11 PM
He showed some lovely touches when he came on against City. I'd take N'Dyaia out the firing line and let Carle bomb around the final third

mojoeagle
16-09-2009, 04:12 PM
May be appearence fees?

Matt_Hep
16-09-2009, 04:18 PM
Why isn't he being given a chance to show what he can do?

As soon as we signed him the Australian coach voiced big concerns that he'd be wasted under Warnock, due to his style of management and the style of play..Sadly this has been proved correct..

We've got so many great, exciting players simply going to waste under the Warnock regime..very sad.

Il Padrino
16-09-2009, 04:23 PM
We've got so many great, exciting players simply going to waste under the Warnock regime..very sad.

They'd be the great exciting players he put in the team in the first place...

Matt_Hep
16-09-2009, 04:25 PM
That's the point - he doesn't know how to get the most out of these players and can't for the life of him work it out...so they end up going to waste.

TheCharmer
16-09-2009, 04:25 PM
was never a million pound player, what an outrageous waste of money.

Matt_Hep
16-09-2009, 04:26 PM
If he played for us how he played for Bristol he'd more than justify the 1 million tag

Scroatey
16-09-2009, 04:27 PM
Another international player, like Carl Fletcher, overlooked, underutilised, and likely to leave. I rated both and sadly they've never been allowed to show their true talents in a Palace shirt, yet somehow luckily seem to remain fit enough to play international football and play well.

Jason
16-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Bottom line is that he's a very good player who is not suited to the CCC (regardless of who is managing the club concerned). A move overseas with is recouping as much as we can (realistically, anything above half the initial fee is a result) is in everyone's best interests imho.

Il Padrino
16-09-2009, 04:29 PM
That's the point - he doesn't know how to get the most out of these players and can't for the life of him work it out...so they end up going to waste.

Moses, Scannell and even Carle have blown hot and cold IMO. The only one who's exclusion baffles me is Clyne.

With Moses and Scannell, I don't know if its a case of them being a bit too young to perform at a high level consistency, or as you say, he doesnt know how to handle them.

The Carle situation is a strange one though- I still don't think we've played him in his best position (which I guess you'll agree with me on)

Matt_Hep
16-09-2009, 04:29 PM
Bottom line is that he's a very good player who is not suited to the CCC (regardless of who is managing the club concerned).

He was excellent for Bristol City..remember him tearing us apart in the Playoffs!?

Matt_Hep
16-09-2009, 04:31 PM
With Moses and Scannell, I don't know if its a case of them being a bit too young to perform at a high level consistency, or as you say, he doesnt know how to handle them.



Interesting mate..

YOu're right - we don't know for sure if these players are capable of top performance week in week out...we can only go on the glimpses of brilliance we've seen, interest from top clubs and international accolades..

Unfortunately with Warnock we're not going to get a system that plays to these lads strengths. Warnock is a man who has spent his entire managerial career shipping out talented players in favour of carthorses; our squad just isn't suited to him.

st albans
16-09-2009, 04:41 PM
i was always surprised that Bristol City let him go so easily, but he did look ok last season, and yet for some reason hasn't been given a chance this

very very strange

Nelson Muntz
16-09-2009, 04:42 PM
Things are so bad on the pitch, even I wouldn't flog him for the time being.

David
16-09-2009, 04:42 PM
Warnock simply doesn't know how to put a player like Carle into his 'tactical' formation. He's a very talented player, but Warncok wasted a lot of money on a midfielder who must have bad neck ache from all the hoof ball going over his head.

I don't blame Carle, I blame the manager who seemingly prefers players like NiDiaye (not ready for first team football) and Darren Ambrose (who is sadly anonymous for most of the games).

TheCharmer
16-09-2009, 05:00 PM
If he played for us how he played for Bristol he'd more than justify the 1 million tag

not in the current financial climate or in the club s perilous financial state. NW once again showed his tactical acumen or lack of by purchasing a player that doesnt fit into his preferred system.

philsick
16-09-2009, 09:23 PM
I'd be off if i was him.

philaire
17-09-2009, 03:47 AM
Carle will be desperate to leave if he doesn't get game time, otherwise he has no chance of making the Aussie WC squad. Warnock's quotes such as "Nick's not in my team" and "I can't see him going anywhere until January" suggest he doesn't rate the player.

GodstoneEagle
17-09-2009, 04:04 AM
He was excellent for Bristol City..remember him tearing us apart in the Playoffs!?
um, i remember Carl Fletcher marking him out of a game against us.


Carl. Fletcher.

the kooch
17-09-2009, 04:53 AM
Warnock simply doesn't know how to put a player like Carle into his 'tactical' formation. He's a very talented player, but Warncok wasted a lot of money on a midfielder who must have bad neck ache from all the hoof ball going over his head.

I don't blame Carle, I blame the manager who seemingly prefers players like NiDiaye (not ready for first team football) and Darren Ambrose (who is sadly anonymous for most of the games).

How is Carle any different? He didn't set the world alight when he played, and neither is he a superior player to Ambrose. I think Carle is a luxury player who would do well in a proper, well composed team and be anonymous in a circus like ours.

Il Padrino
17-09-2009, 08:40 AM
CRYSTAL Palace boss Neil Warnock says he is unaware of any approach for Nick Carle - despite the midfielder’s former club Newcastle Jets claiming they are keen to take him back to Australia.
The 27-year-old Socceroos international, left, has played just 10 minutes of competitive football for the Eagles this season and was the subject of an approach from FC Seoul in the summer.
Jets owner Con Constantine has gone public stating he would like to lure Carle back Down Under - and that a deal could be done as a guest player which would allow him to move outside of the transfer window. But Warnock said: “I know nothing about it. Nick’s not in my team and wants to be playing somewhere before the World Cup and I’m aware of that.
“We had an offer from a Korean club but we couldn’t get it through before the deadline. I can’t see him going anywhere until January unless something happens that I’m not aware of.”

George Tasker
18-09-2009, 11:23 PM
Agreed.

Agreed

gold76
18-09-2009, 11:39 PM
I think he should be in the team, starting today!
However, if he fails to re-establish himself by January & a reasonable offer comes in, it might be best to let him go
needs to be playing if he's to go to South Africa

ee-ay-ee-ay-ee-ay-o
19-09-2009, 07:48 AM
Warnock said: I know nothing about it. Nicks not in my team and wants to be playing somewhere before the World Cup and Im aware of that.
We had an offer from a Korean club but we couldnt get it through before the deadline. I cant see him going anywhere until January unless something happens that Im not aware of.
Clear signs that he wont be considered unless we're down to bare bones as a result of injuries.
He's not on NW's favoured list so he's a gonna.
Same treatment as Fletch

Dobbo
21-09-2009, 09:56 AM
Think Ertl did a decent job shoring up midfield on Saturday & would play him again at WBA, but would much prefer Carle in that position for the upcoming home games

Gooders
21-09-2009, 10:06 AM
Another international player, like Carl Fletcher, overlooked, underutilised, and likely to leave. I rated both and sadly they've never been allowed to show their true talents in a Palace shirt, yet somehow luckily seem to remain fit enough to play international football and play well.

The Carl Fletcher that is now in the engine room of the team that is propping up this league with 2 points?

Beanie
21-09-2009, 10:11 AM
Think Ertl did a decent job shoring up midfield on Saturday & would play him again at WBA, but would much prefer Carle in that position for the upcoming home games
To what end? Ertl helped free up Derry which in turn allows the likes of Danns and Ambrose to be more effective. It is the role N'Daiye started doing, but Ertl did better. If Carle is to come in he would need to replace Danns or Ambrose - and I think they are both doing too well. Ambrose, apart from being top scorer, is the only player we have who delivers a decent dead ball, and Danns energy would be a major miss.

<_tece_>
21-09-2009, 10:24 AM
To what end? Ertl helped free up Derry which in turn allows the likes of Danns and Ambrose to be more effective. It is the role N'Daiye started doing, but Ertl did better. If Carle is to come in he would need to replace Danns or Ambrose - and I think they are both doing too well. Ambrose, apart from being top scorer, is the only player we have who delivers a decent dead ball, and Danns energy would be a major miss.

I agree with your point, but would say that N'Diaye was definitely playing a more attacking role in the team when he played than Derry.

Although I would say that space will eventually be needed to have Carle in the team. To not have a player of his quality in the first team is baffling really. But we know what Warnock's like: expect the same first 11 as Saturday, until we lose.

Big Blue Eagle
21-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Carle has flattered to deceive since he arrived - lots of nice touches but precious little end product and too often running into a dead end when he has the ball. He also seems to struggle with fitness generally - his shorts on Saturday were positively Ruddock-esque in their tightness........

A manager never knows what a players' work ethic is like until he joins a club and maybe that is his issue - at BC and here?

Owngoal
21-09-2009, 10:34 AM
Don't like to think about the fee Warnock paid for Carle in the current Palace economic climate. He has been a real disappointment and we would be lucky to recover a quarter of what we paid. I've seen him several times and he has not cut it, so much so that Ertl gets in ahead of him. However, if he was to go somewhere else and do well it would say a lot about 'man management'.

Panther
21-09-2009, 11:38 AM
A manager never knows what a players' work ethic is like until he joins a club and maybe that is his issue - at BC and here?

Which might explain why he's had 8 different clubs since leaving Sydney in 2001/02.

Tomo
21-09-2009, 11:49 AM
Another international player, like Carl Fletcher, overlooked, underutilised, and likely to leave. I rated both and sadly they've never been allowed to show their true talents in a Palace shirt, yet somehow luckily seem to remain fit enough to play international football and play well.
a midfield pair of Fletcher and Carle would be great.

Carle against us gave one of the best individual performances I've seen against us in the championship.

FraserH
21-09-2009, 12:56 PM
a flair player who needs a run in the team but for some reason isn't given a chance.

if i was him i would be off as soon as i could especially with the world cup next year.

Celestial Empire
21-09-2009, 12:57 PM
Short-term loan to a Champs struggler to keep him match fit and see what he can do under another manager ?
He's much too concerned about the inevitable Oz cameo in South Africa, he's quite likely not to play anyway.
International honours are the reward for good club performance, not the main goal for professional players.
Totally wrong psychology.

Gazpacho
21-09-2009, 02:06 PM
It's a big game away at WBA on Sat - I'd play Carle as a roving midfielder in a five man midfield backed by Danns, Derry, Ertl and Ambrose. He can break fast and support Lee or cover Ambrose etc. I would start him in the WBA game ahead of Scannell. I think Carle will be in the mood to show everybody and this game and role I think would suit him.

dufski13
21-09-2009, 03:43 PM
For me Carle has been a real dissapointment, he looked way off the pace last season, & I'm not in the slightest bit surprised he hasn't featured this season. If we could get a fee once the transfer window is open & the embargo is lifted I'd be delighted to see him take his roving, feckless, twinkle toes elsewhere. All this adulation of a player who has singularly failed to show any real commitment to the cause, & cost a fair penny to boot, baffles me. The recent signing Carle reminds me most of is Marco Reich, all nice little touches with no end product & no commitment.

dufski13
21-09-2009, 03:44 PM
Oh and I hope Carle is nowhere near the team away at West Brom, the way he gives the ball away we'll get murdered.

Typical Palace
21-09-2009, 03:55 PM
Another international player, like Carl Fletcher, overlooked, underutilised, and likely to leave. I rated both and sadly they've never been allowed to show their true talents in a Palace shirt, yet somehow luckily seem to remain fit enough to play international football and play well.
I don't rate either. IMHO it's not a case of not being 'allowed' to show their talents, it's just their talent is not enough. Carle was way over priced and desperation to replace Ben meant paying over the odds. If we got anywhere neat half that now I'd take it.

Carle's been a bit unlucky - Ben stayed and that changed the situation as Ben is a far better player than him. It set Carle back at the start and he's never really got up and running since.

The facts, as I see them, are that Carle never exerts a significant enough influence over a game (maybe you can blame Neil). He's never looked fit enough over 90 minutes (something Bristol City fans warned us about). He doesn't create, or score enough, goals. He's always looked a luxury too far the way he's played here.

You can blame Neil all you like but Gary Johnson didn't see it as a backward step to sell him did he? The Wurzel's haven't exactly missed him have they (unlkie, say, Palace and Ben).

Warnock's biggest signing - Warnock's second biggest mistake.

Typical Palace
21-09-2009, 04:02 PM
He was excellent for Bristol City..remember him tearing us apart in the Playoffs!?
No Matt I don't really remember that. I do remember him giving away the penalty that could've taken us to Wembley. He can tackle like Paul Scholes.

And Tomo, what was that performance you're talking about? We played Bristol so much then and I can't recall him even approaching tearing us apart. Which game did you mean?

Charlieboy
21-09-2009, 04:03 PM
I think he's a cracking player but just isn't suited for our style of football. I mean look at his goal against sheffield united last year. If he wasn't that good he wouldn't be trying to get into the Aussie world cup squad.

macstar
21-09-2009, 04:09 PM
not a warnock hoofball player unfortunately.

dufski13
21-09-2009, 04:12 PM
I think he's a cracking player but just isn't suited for our style of football. I mean look at his goal against sheffield united last year. If he wasn't that good he wouldn't be trying to get into the Aussie world cup squad.

One goal does not a player make. Maybe that is his problem, I don't know, nor do I care. We are not a charity for over paid,under worked footballers. He has some quality, no mistake, but he seems to want to long on the ball, & IMO that is one of the main reasons he hasn't really worked here. Nothing to do with Warnock's style, whatever that is meant to mean, but that the game in the Uk is played at far too great a pace for him,with teams very quick to press the ball. As a result he loses possession far too easily. He'd be ok in Holland I reckon where they seem to give players an age on the ball.

Charlieboy
21-09-2009, 05:50 PM
One goal does not a player make. Maybe that is his problem, I don't know, nor do I care. We are not a charity for over paid,under worked footballers. He has some quality, no mistake, but he seems to want to long on the ball, & IMO that is one of the main reasons he hasn't really worked here. Nothing to do with Warnock's style, whatever that is meant to mean, but that the game in the Uk is played at far too great a pace for him,with teams very quick to press the ball. As a result he loses possession far too easily. He'd be ok in Holland I reckon where they seem to give players an age on the ball.

I'd be sure if he was in a team such as Swansea last year he would've shined.

TheArtfulDodger
21-09-2009, 06:17 PM
Why isn't he being given a chance to show what he can do?

Well said mate, a player wated by Warnocks outdated style of play and thuggish tactics, should be the kingpin in or midfield, a truely excellent player when played to his strengths.

BulletEagle
21-09-2009, 06:56 PM
You would think, with Warnock having been the one who blew our last 1,000,000 on him, with us in such a desperate situation at the moment, that he would try to use him to justify exactly why he bought him. Or maybe Warnock's the problem...

UEAgle
21-09-2009, 07:57 PM
Seeing Ertl picked ahead of him must have been really galling.

Carle is a very talented player; NW just doesn't have a clue how to use him.

GreatGonzo
21-09-2009, 08:15 PM
2 most talented players on Saturday, both wore 10 both used as late subs, yet the last 5-10 minutes of the match were by far the best when they were on.

nomad
21-09-2009, 08:54 PM
Hopefully Warnock will be out before too long and a manager that's more creative can make best use of him...feel sorry for the lad, heaps of talent but completely wrong manager - as is the case for so many of our squad

Not too sure about Warnock being out but I wish he would play a more creative team and Carle was so influential when he played for Bristol City against us that you wonder what he could do in the right team playing the passing game instead of the unattractive hoof ball team that we are fast becoming. NW seems to prefer players who give of their all regardless of their talent. I was really excited when we signed in and he has imo been wasted in the team by the style of football that we play.

Pennyfather
21-09-2009, 11:04 PM
Carle has flattered to deceive since he arrived - lots of nice touches but precious little end product and too often running into a dead end when he has the ball. He also seems to struggle with fitness generally - his shorts on Saturday were positively Ruddock-esque in their tightness........

A manager never knows what a players' work ethic is like until he joins a club and maybe that is his issue - at BC and here?

Sorry but I have to take issue with this. I've seen Carle train & he gives everything he has & imo looked like one of the best trainers at the club.

Regarding his fitness/weight you must be having a laugh! His legs are pure muscle which is why shorts look tight on him & I doubt if he has a pound of fat on his entire body!

The guy is head & shoulders above anyone else in the squad technically & mentally & the team should be built around him. Any manager who can't see that is sub standard.

Celestial Empire
21-09-2009, 11:42 PM
Sorry but I have to take issue with this. I've seen Carle train & he gives everything he has & imo looked like one of the best trainers at the club.

Regarding his fitness/weight you must be having a laugh! His legs are pure muscle which is why shorts look tight on him & I doubt if he has a pound of fat on his entire body!

The guy is head & shoulders above anyone else in the squad technically & mentally & the team should be built around him. Any manager who can't see that is sub standard.

You're 'aving a larff right ?:eek:
Carle was completely shackled by Fletch in that famous game. Is Carle worse than we thought, or is Fletch better than we thought, or are they both a bit average really ?:confused:

philsick
22-09-2009, 05:37 AM
Our best midfield over the last few years,was watson ,oster and carle,for a few games when derry was injured last year.Carle isn't perfect,i think he's quite slow.But he has that extra bit of vision and technique,that the others are lacking.I think players like moses,sears and scannell,would benefit from the service he could provide.He's not a watson,but he's the nearest we have to a playmaker.He deserves a run to prove himself.

Frisky
22-09-2009, 06:55 AM
Our best midfield over the last few years,was watson ,oster and carle,for a few games when derry was injured last year.Carle isn't perfect,i think he's quite slow.But he has that extra bit of vision and technique,that the others are lacking.I think players like moses,sears and scannell,would benefit from the service he could provide.He's not a watson,but he's the nearest we have to a playmaker.He deserves a run to prove himself.

At last a voice of reason on this thread. How anyone can critisise a player for giving the ball away and prefer players whose first thought is to launch the ball in roughly the right direction of Alan Lee is beyond me.

Carle runs well with the ball, keeps control better than most, creates space for others and has the creativity to pick a pass - where teammates make good runs. These passes won't always come off but can any of Carle's detractors claim that a ball launched at Lee from wherever on the field is a better tactic? Not me. Apart from being boring to watch it is simply not effective (as our goals to games ratio is proving).

Lets just get our best 11 playing. Lee and Ertl are not in our best 11.

Pennyfather
22-09-2009, 08:45 AM
You're 'aving a larff right ?:eek:
Carle was completely shackled by Fletch in that famous game. Is Carle worse than we thought, or is Fletch better than we thought, or are they both a bit average really ?:confused:

I'm a little confused here as I didn't mention 'that famous game' as you put nor did I mention Fletch!

For the record I do think Fletch was a decent player & should have been used a lot more than NW did. Particularly when Derry was off form last season.

Celestial Empire
22-09-2009, 12:52 PM
Our best midfield over the last few years,was watson ,oster and carle,for a few games when derry was injured last year.Carle isn't perfect,i think he's quite slow.But he has that extra bit of vision and technique,that the others are lacking.I think players like moses,sears and scannell,would benefit from the service he could provide.He's not a watson,but he's the nearest we have to a playmaker.He deserves a run to prove himself.

I have nothing against Carle, he is a skillful player, but he is unable to impose himself, maybe a sports psychology/character problem ? We do have a playmaker with all the tools though, his name is Darren Ambrose.

GreatGonzo
22-09-2009, 01:14 PM
We do have a playmaker with all the tools though, his name is Darren Ambrose.

Same number of assists as Derry, Moses, Lee and McCarthy - 1! NAd considering he is our set piece taker nbot exactly the greatest play maker.

If Carle had had similar game time i think he would have a couple more assists.

Gooders
22-09-2009, 01:20 PM
Do you think he'd have 5 or 6 goals as well?

kolinkins
22-09-2009, 01:22 PM
Carle, like a lot of our midfielders over the last decade, seems to split supporters down the middle.

I can see his value to the side - he's the only player who looks to pass into space rather than to feet - something which the likes of Moses, Scannell and Sears should thrive on.

However, he seems a bit one paced and dwells on the ball too much, so often the chance to thread through a pass is gone.

The other thing is that is he was as good as some on here say, he would not only be in our side, he'd be linked with teams far better than a Korean team or Newcastle Jets. He isnt and he isnt.

Overall, I am not bothered by him. What I am bothered by is people (some of whom didnt post after their hero got sacked, and Warnock gave 11 kids a debut on the way to getting into the play offs) using Carle as a stick to beat Warnock with. Warnock saw enough in him to buy him - and it seems for whatever reason, Carle hasnt been good enough. Carle's history, and the future (given the clubs that want him) suggest that it is down to him, and not the manager.

GreatGonzo
22-09-2009, 01:31 PM
Do you think he'd have 5 or 6 goals as well?

No but i think some of our other players might have scored more.

Think Ambrose is in and out of games as much if not more than Carle. Its tricky though with 5 of our 17 first team squad being central midfielders.

Gooders
22-09-2009, 01:41 PM
I think they'd both drift out of games in equal measure.

I think Carle has a lot of ability and I think he was a reasonable punt at the time but he's way too lardy and his head just doesn't seem to be right.

It's a shame, there's a really classy player in there somewhere but it's just not trying hard enough to get out.

Pennyfather
22-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Overall, I am not bothered by him. What I am bothered by is people (some of whom didnt post after their hero got sacked, and Warnock gave 11 kids a debut on the way to getting into the play offs) using Carle as a stick to beat Warnock with. Warnock saw enough in him to buy him - and it seems for whatever reason, Carle hasnt been good enough. Carle's history, and the future (given the clubs that want him) suggest that it is down to him, and not the manager.

I take it that's a dig at me kolinkins? Well done, pat yourself on the back.

Not only is that dig uncalled for but it's totally inaccurate too. I'm very passionate about certain players, Carle in this instance & Watson previously & I get incredibly frustrated by managers like Warnock & Dowie who prefer tall athletic players with little skill over more technically gifted players. Football used to be a game that provided entertainment & skilful players were lorded whereas now they're shunned to the reserves as managers are so bloody negative all the time.

sydnsteve
22-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this case, and I am myself divided on Carle, Klinx's devotion to the deity that is NW warms the cockles of the heart.

kolinkins
22-09-2009, 02:50 PM
I take it that's a dig at me kolinkins? Well done, pat yourself on the back.

Not only is that dig uncalled for but it's totally inaccurate too.

Which bit is inaccurate? You said at the time of his appointment you thought Warnock would be bad for the club, you hardly posted when he took us to the play-offs, and are back posting when all is not rosey.

I'm very passionate about certain players, Carle in this instance & Watson previously

Totally 100% understandable, we all have our favourites.

& I get incredibly frustrated by managers like Warnock & Dowie who prefer tall athletic players with little skill over more technically gifted players. Football used to be a game that provided entertainment & skilful players were lorded whereas now they're shunned to the reserves as managers are so bloody negative all the time.

Why highlight those 2 managers, and miss out PT (who, despite having more money than NW to spend, is the only of the three to not take us into the Playoffs)? He was hardly a champion of the technically gifted player (signed Cort, Kuqi, Craig, Hughes and Dickov), or of our young players (Hills, Scannell and Moses made their debuts within a month of him leaving).

And, PT's biggest supporter calling NW negative is highly ironic. Never so dull was the football at Selhurst Park than between August 2006 and October 2007. 11 back at corners, anyone?

Panther
22-09-2009, 03:55 PM
I am myself divided on Carle,

I've often wondered about you, Sydnsteve, but now you have admitted to being divided, can I ask you: Are you Syd or are you Steve? Are you Steve from Sydney or Sydenham? Are you two people, Syd and Steve? Or have you got a split personality? Of course, this may be your secret and if so feel free to tell me to get lost......:)

philsick
22-09-2009, 06:44 PM
We do have a playmaker with all the tools though, his name is Darren Ambrose.

Ambrose is an attacking goalscoring midfielder,definately not a playmaker.

David
22-09-2009, 06:57 PM
Which bit is inaccurate? You said at the time of his appointment you thought Warnock would be bad for the club, you hardly posted when he took us to the play-offs, and are back posting when all is not rosey.



Totally 100% understandable, we all have our favourites.



Why highlight those 2 managers, and miss out PT (who, despite having more money than NW to spend, is the only of the three to not take us into the Playoffs)? He was hardly a champion of the technically gifted player (signed Cort, Kuqi, Craig, Hughes and Dickov), or of our young players (Hills, Scannell and Moses made their debuts within a month of him leaving).

And, PT's biggest supporter calling NW negative is highly ironic. Never so dull was the football at Selhurst Park than between August 2006 and October 2007. 11 back at corners, anyone?


Your obsession and hatred towards Peter Taylor is quite worrying!

Pennyfather
22-09-2009, 07:07 PM
Which bit is inaccurate?

Firstly Peter Taylor has never been & will never be my hero. I have a huge respect for him as a player & manager but that's all.

I have posted plenty since NW took over. At a quick glance more than 300 posts. Admitedly not much this year but that is for other reasons. Who are the 10 youth players that NW has given debuts to? Realistically it's Moses, Scannell, Hills & Clyne as the others have rarely appeared. This I don't really want to argue about though as it is fair to say that NW has blooded more youngsters than any other recent manager & that is to his credit. Not many are improving much though but that's a different argument.


You said at the time of his appointment you thought Warnock would be bad for the club, you hardly posted when he took us to the play-offs, and are back posting when all is not rosey.

It wasn't just NW that I said would be bad for the club but the club as a whole based on SJ's attitude. This quote from 8/10/07 seems quite profound now! http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?p=6053959#post6053959

As is the one on this page http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?t=160049&page=2

Here's another page in between the 2 play off games with some pretty encouraging & positive words. http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?t=169937&page=2 Hardly the words of someone who wasn't behind the team.

Why highlight those 2 managers, and miss out PT (who, despite having more money than NW to spend, is the only of the three to not take us into the Playoffs)? He was hardly a champion of the technically gifted player (signed Cort, Kuqi, Craig, Hughes and Dickov), or of our young players (Hills, Scannell and Moses made their debuts within a month of him leaving).

Admitedly PT didn't purchase many technically gifted players with the exception of Kennedy but I did get the impression that Watson was one of the 1st names on any of his team sheets unlike the other 2.

And, PT's biggest supporter calling NW negative is highly ironic. Never so dull was the football at Selhurst Park than between August 2006 and October 2007. 11 back at corners, anyone?

Imo Dowie & Warnock were/are far more negative in their team selections & substitutions that Taylor. PT would make an attacking switch when scores were level whereas the other 2 simply don't.

Vince Hilaire's Afro
22-09-2009, 07:14 PM
Carle is a talented player, but doesn't have the athleticism to be a regular, even at this level. He had a fair crack of the whip last season, but failed to do anything to suggest he is any better than the players who have taken his place. We wondered at the time why Bristol let him go so easily, and now we know why. He's not the first talented 'enigma' to have been at the club, and he won't be the last. Even under Coppell, revered by many on here as a God, numerous skilful footballers came and went without making their mark.

It's nothing to do with Warnock favouring 'hoofers', we're just a club that has never been able to carry passengers. Probably since the 1979 team broke up we've been a team of grafters first and foremost. Andy Gray describedthe Villa Park semi final as 'an XR3i going up against a Rolls Royce'. We'll never be a Rolls Royce, we need a team with everyone pulling their weight in order to succeed.

Warnock's mistake was to pay too much for Carle. But he should be commended for NOT playing him, if the guy isn't putting in the effort. I'm sure Warnock would like nothing more than to play his big signing - it makes him look foolish otherwise. It's up to the player to decide if he has the hunger to get back into the side, and stay there if he does.

kolinkins
22-09-2009, 07:39 PM
Firstly Peter Taylor has never been & will never be my hero. I have a huge respect for him as a player & manager but that's all.

I have posted plenty since NW took over. At a quick glance more than 300 posts. Admitedly not much this year but that is for other reasons. Who are the 10 youth players that NW has given debuts to? Realistically it's Moses, Scannell, Hills & Clyne as the others have rarely appeared. This I don't really want to argue about though as it is fair to say that NW has blooded more youngsters than any other recent manager & that is to his credit. Not many are improving much though but that's a different argument.

Fair enough - different discussion for a different time.


It wasn't just NW that I said would be bad for the club but the club as a whole based on SJ's attitude. This quote from 8/10/07 seems quite profound now! http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?p=6053959#post6053959

As is the one on this page http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?t=160049&page=2

Here's another page in between the 2 play off games with some pretty encouraging & positive words. http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?t=169937&page=2 Hardly the words of someone who wasn't behind the team.

I never doubted your support for the team - your support for the team is admirable. I do doubt your support of our manager though.



Admitedly PT didn't purchase many technically gifted players with the exception of Kennedy but I did get the impression that Watson was one of the 1st names on any of his team sheets unlike the other 2.

I don't think that is true - Watson was a kid while Dowie was here, but Dowie still used him a fair amount.

Taylor didnt use Ben nearly as much as he should have - a lot of the time it was Kennedy and Fletcher, Watson was used when one of those was not available.

Warnock, AFAIK, used Watson everytime he was fit and available for selection, apart from 4 games last season



Imo Dowie & Warnock were/are far more negative in their team selections & substitutions that Taylor. PT would make an attacking switch when scores were level whereas the other 2 simply don't.

That's just simply not true. While Dowie's subs were often bizarre, Warnock is far more likely to go for a win from a draw (prior to this season) than PT ever was. PT set himself up for a 0-0 pretty much every game.

I'll end this post by giving you credit for debating - unlike many on here, you are reasoned and worth engaging with.

GreatGonzo
22-09-2009, 08:06 PM
Why highlight those 2 managers, and miss out PT (who, despite having more money than NW to spend, is the only of the three to not take us into the Playoffs)? He was hardly a champion of the technically gifted player (signed Cort, Kuqi, Craig, Hughes and Dickov), or of our young players (Hills, Scannell and Moses made their debuts within a month of him leaving).

And, PT's biggest supporter calling NW negative is highly ironic. Never so dull was the football at Selhurst Park than between August 2006 and October 2007. 11 back at corners, anyone?

Full season

PT
Finished 12th, 65 points, scored 59, conceeded 51

NW
Finished 15th, 56 points, scored 52, conceeded 55

Before PT arrived we sold 11.6m worth of players, our best striker and at the time our best defender, we then lost our player of the season as well and a utility player. Total income 13m.

PT had to rebuild the squad and spent about 2.5m doing it and had Kuqi brought in by other people blowing any remaining budget as a panic deperate buy.

In all PT's time at Palace (including the players sold in the summer he was appointed) we made 15m, we bought (inc Kuqi who he did not want) 6.5m.

In all NW's time at Palace we made 6m and he has spent about 3.5m.

Still lets talk about the troubled times that NW had to work in with players being sold around him whereas PT had an open chequebook and was rubbish.

Will always agree with the arguement that 11 back at corners was poor and that he should have introduced the youngsters but PT doesn't have half people looking through shit covered specs!

EddieEdwards
22-09-2009, 08:22 PM
This quote from 8/10/07 seems quite profound now! http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?p=6053959#post6053959That looks more muddled than profound to me. While we all know that SJ wants to sell the club, it's just weird to say that sacking Taylor was an indicator of this. The reason SJ sacked Taylor was that he believed that Taylor was performing poorly and that it was necessary to sack him in order to improve the club's fortunes. That would have applied equally whether SJ had it in his mind at that time to stay and build something, or to sell the club. And how it brought you to the conclusion that SJ wanted to sell "regardless of where that leaves the future of our club" is even more baffling.

Pennyfather
22-09-2009, 09:25 PM
That looks more muddled than profound to me. While we all know that SJ wants to sell the club, it's just weird to say that sacking Taylor was an indicator of this. The reason SJ sacked Taylor was that he believed that Taylor was performing poorly and that it was necessary to sack him in order to improve the club's fortunes. That would have applied equally whether SJ had it in his mind at that time to stay and build something, or to sell the club. And how it brought you to the conclusion that SJ wanted to sell "regardless of where that leaves the future of our club" is even more baffling.

Don't forget that this post was well before SJ went public on wanting to sell the club. My point back then was that if SJ was planning on sticking around for the long term he wouldn't have fired PT & paid him off in October. It's more likely that PT would have had more time even if it was only a few more months if SJ wasn't just looking for a quick fix before getting out.

kolinkins
22-09-2009, 09:27 PM
Don't forget that this post was well before SJ went public on wanting to sell the club. My point back then was that if SJ was planning on sticking around for the long term he wouldn't have fired PT & paid him off in October. It's more likely that PT would have had more time even if it was only a few more months if SJ wasn't just looking for a quick fix before getting out.

SJ went public on wanting to sell the club in 2004

Pennyfather
22-09-2009, 09:57 PM
SJ went public on wanting to sell the club in 2004


Correct me if I'm wrong here but weren't the 2004 comments fairly tame & tongue in cheek after promotion saying that if someone came along who could do better than him he'd be happy to sell?

Very different to the public 'come & get it' signal he sent out some 18 months ago.

Farawayeagle
23-09-2009, 09:53 AM
Warnock's mistake was to pay too much for Carle. But he should be commended for NOT playing him, if the guy isn't putting in the effort. I'm sure Warnock would like nothing more than to play his big signing - it makes him look foolish otherwise. It's up to the player to decide if he has the hunger to get back into the side, and stay there if he does.


That is just not the case. I spoke to Nicky during the pre season when he was training in Sydney to keep fit for the National team. He was very positive and motivated for the season and really looking forward to playing at Palace.

He was very up about playing for NW and hoping to add a few goals to his game. Knowing him -- I would say he is gutted that NW is not selecting him. It is certainly not for want of effort nor passion.

He also has the motivation that he wants to get into the world cup squad. So he willl definitely be putting the work in at training. In a recent interview for the press here -- he said he was working hard at training and waiting for his chance.

Il Padrino
23-09-2009, 10:30 AM
PT had to rebuild the squad and spent about 2.5m doing it and had Kuqi brought in by other people blowing any remaining budget as a panic deperate buy.

In all PT's time at Palace (including the players sold in the summer he was appointed) we made 15m, we bought (inc Kuqi who he did not want) 6.5m.



Do you really, honestly, truly believe that Kuqi was forced upon Taylor? He wasn't his main choice (who we missed out on) and instead turned to the list of players his director of football prepared for him and picked the top one off the list. To even consider - let alone suggest - that Taylor had no idea who Bob Dowie was recommending we sign is madness I'm afraid.

As for the rest of your comparison post, its meaningless because last season we lost players (both before and during the season) that any other manager under Jordan's reign would have been given the finance to replace. At last Mick Jones has broken silence on his blog and said that "we couldn't afford to keep Morrison", which agrees with many comments on here that CM was offered a hefty paycut in his fabled "great deal" and of course our best player went just after Xmas. Add Beattie and Soares to that and it makes it impossible to compare the two because it isnt an even playing field. The rot started at the start of last season, where we did not really spend any money either as the details of missing installments owed to Bristol City show and this year we have even less cash to play with, despite finally getting Taylor's over-age, over paid dross off the paylist.

Compare that to the money Taylor was given to piss away on Flinders, Cort, Kuqi, Scowcroft, Kennedy, Ifill and so on. We can't even afford a loan signing, let alone spend half a million on a Coventry reserve carthorse or offer a one-footed flop nine grand a week.

The only way you can run a fair comparison between Taylor and Warnock is to look at the season they were both there with the same squad, and we all know what happened there.

Sorry to go on, but when I hear nonsense like that I cant help myself

kolinkins
23-09-2009, 10:33 AM
Do you really, honestly, truly believe that Kuqi was forced upon Taylor? He wasn't his main choice (who we missed out on) and instead turned to the list of players his director of football prepared for him and picked the top one off the list. To even consider - let alone suggest - that Taylor had no idea who Bob Dowie was recommending we sign is madness I'm afraid.

As for the rest of your comparison post, its meaningless because last season we lost players (both before and during the season) that any other manager under Jordan's reign would have been given the finance to replace. At last Mick Jones has broken silence on his blog and said that "we couldn't afford to keep Morrison", which agrees with many comments on here that CM was offered a hefty paycut in his fabled "great deal" and of course our best player went just after Xmas. Add Beattie and Soares to that and it makes it impossible to compare the two because it isnt an even playing field. The rot started at the start of last season, where we did not really spend any money either as the details of missing installments owed to Bristol City show and this year we have even less cash to play with, despite finally getting Taylor's over-age, over paid dross off the paylist.

Compare that to the money Taylor was given to piss away on Flinders, Cort, Kuqi, Scowcroft, Kennedy, Ifill and so on. We can't even afford a loan signing, let alone spend half a million on a Coventry reserve carthorse or offer a one-footed flop nine grand a week.

The only way you can run a fair comparison between Taylor and Warnock is to look at the season they were both there with the same squad, and we all know what happened there.

Sorry to go on, but when I hear nonsense like that I cant help myself

Every word, spot on.

David
23-09-2009, 11:55 AM
Carle, like a lot of our midfielders over the last decade, seems to split supporters down the middle.

I can see his value to the side - he's the only player who looks to pass into space rather than to feet - something which the likes of Moses, Scannell and Sears should thrive on.

However, he seems a bit one paced and dwells on the ball too much, so often the chance to thread through a pass is gone.

The other thing is that is he was as good as some on here say, he would not only be in our side, he'd be linked with teams far better than a Korean team or Newcastle Jets. He isnt and he isnt.

Overall, I am not bothered by him. What I am bothered by is people (some of whom didnt post after their hero got sacked, and Warnock gave 11 kids a debut on the way to getting into the play offs) using Carle as a stick to beat Warnock with. Warnock saw enough in him to buy him - and it seems for whatever reason, Carle hasnt been good enough. Carle's history, and the future (given the clubs that want him) suggest that it is down to him, and not the manager.


This piece of scouting brilliance comes from someone who thinks we played OK against Scunthorpe.

I can't read your rubbish anyone, it's beyond bizarre! Everytime I see your name then a post I know the BBS is about to become less enjoyable.

Another for the ignore list.

ThisIsDoM
23-09-2009, 12:52 PM
Warnock's mistake was to pay too much for Carle. But he should be commended for NOT playing him, if the guy isn't putting in the effort. I'm sure Warnock would like nothing more than to play his big signing - it makes him look foolish otherwise. It's up to the player to decide if he has the hunger to get back into the side, and stay there if he does.

Both Warnock and Mick Jones have been saying that Carle has been working incredibly hard in training to get his place back and that he's gutted that he's not playing.

GreatGonzo
23-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Every word, spot on.

Thats funny Klinx seeing as i do not rememebr you being there when i was talking to PT, forced would be strong, but if you are offered a player or no player on deadline day not a lot of option is there.

It was discussed a lot on this site that we were after him when he was leaving Ipswich, we tracked him for a couple of years under Dowie, doesn't take a very clever person to work out that he was on a list produced by someone other than the manager!

GreatGonzo
23-09-2009, 02:11 PM
The only way you can run a fair comparison between Taylor and Warnock is to look at the season they were both there with the same squad, and we all know what happened there.

When was that? As soon as NW came in a lot of the PT squad was loaned out, we loaned in, they never actually used the same squad.

What i fail to see the sense in is that people are saying after a worse start with poor tactics that things will get better, yet how do people know we would not have improved that season under Taylor? I doubt we would have made the play-offs that was a surprise, but would we have finished better last season than we did had Taylor been in charge? All we can do is guess.

People wanted Taylor out so in their mind he would have failed, people love NW and believe be will turn it around. One of them i think will get the chance to prove if that is right and i hope that the BBS majority is right this time, but i won't hold my breath!

Malakite
23-09-2009, 02:31 PM
Do you really, honestly, truly believe that Kuqi was forced upon Taylor? He wasn't his main choice (who we missed out on) and instead turned to the list of players his director of football prepared for him and picked the top one off the list. To even consider - let alone suggest - that Taylor had no idea who Bob Dowie was recommending we sign is madness I'm afraid.

As for the rest of your comparison post, its meaningless because last season we lost players (both before and during the season) that any other manager under Jordan's reign would have been given the finance to replace. At last Mick Jones has broken silence on his blog and said that "we couldn't afford to keep Morrison", which agrees with many comments on here that CM was offered a hefty paycut in his fabled "great deal" and of course our best player went just after Xmas. Add Beattie and Soares to that and it makes it impossible to compare the two because it isnt an even playing field. The rot started at the start of last season, where we did not really spend any money either as the details of missing installments owed to Bristol City show and this year we have even less cash to play with, despite finally getting Taylor's over-age, over paid dross off the paylist.

Compare that to the money Taylor was given to piss away on Flinders, Cort, Kuqi, Scowcroft, Kennedy, Ifill and so on. We can't even afford a loan signing, let alone spend half a million on a Coventry reserve carthorse or offer a one-footed flop nine grand a week.

The only way you can run a fair comparison between Taylor and Warnock is to look at the season they were both there with the same squad, and we all know what happened there.

Sorry to go on, but when I hear nonsense like that I cant help myself

Great post :p

Il Padrino
23-09-2009, 04:10 PM
Thats funny Klinx seeing as i do not rememebr you being there when i was talking to PT, forced would be strong, but if you are offered a player or no player on deadline day not a lot of option is there.

It was discussed a lot on this site that we were after him when he was leaving Ipswich, we tracked him for a couple of years under Dowie, doesn't take a very clever person to work out that he was on a list produced by someone other than the manager!

But you're still missing a huge point.

Do you think that if PT really didn't want Kuqi he would have accepted him being forced upon him? Of course not.

I'm surprised that you put so much weight into an off the cuff comment from a manager to a supporter!

dufski13
23-09-2009, 05:16 PM
I'm very passionate about certain players, Carle in this instance & Watson previously & I get incredibly frustrated by managers like Warnock & Dowie who prefer tall athletic players with little skill over more technically gifted players. Football used to be a game that provided entertainment & skilful players were lorded whereas now they're shunned to the reserves as managers are so bloody negative all the time.


Funny 2 managers to pick to make your point really, as under Dowie we regularly played Hughes , Routledge, Aj & (in the promotion season) Grey, all skillfull players, certainly not big athletic modern footballers.We were also exciting to watch.Not to mention that it was dowie who really gave Watson his big chance.
Then under Warnock, Watson played his best football by a county mile. Warnock has also given Scannel,Moses, Clyne & countless other of our kids a chance, none of whom, wioth the exception of N'Daye really count as the type of player you are talking about,big athletic modern footballers.

i also have my favourite players & Watson was certainly a big favourite of mine in recent years. End of last season & much of the start if this the football has not been great under Warnock. the 2 points are not unconnected IMO, but I would not use either point to jump to the conclusion you do, it makes no sense. We sold Watson not because of some dreamed up by palace fans dislike of skillfull players on Warnock's behalf, but because we needed the money.

Without getting too involved in the Warnock vs Taylor arguement, Taylor had some money to spend & by & large spent it on over the hill aged journeymen on high wages, his prerogative if the chairman is silly enough to let him. Warnock has had to deal with even less money & those self same journeymen's high wages, he's done ok in the market considering that, sadly though Carle will always get harshly judged for 2 reasons imo. 1) He has infact, taken as a whole, been pretty poor in a Palace shirt. And NO i couldn't give a shit what he did for brizzle or any other pile of poop team he has played for before. and 2) because he is the one piece of real money Warnock has had to spend, & it hasn't worked. I am betting given the chance again we would not be buying Nick Carle.

CaptainCharisma
23-09-2009, 05:43 PM
When was that? As soon as NW came in a lot of the PT squad was loaned out, we loaned in, they never actually used the same squad.

What i fail to see the sense in is that people are saying after a worse start with poor tactics that things will get better, yet how do people know we would not have improved that season under Taylor? I doubt we would have made the play-offs that was a surprise, but would we have finished better last season than we did had Taylor been in charge? All we can do is guess.

People wanted Taylor out so in their mind he would have failed, people love NW and believe be will turn it around. One of them i think will get the chance to prove if that is right and i hope that the BBS majority is right this time, but i won't hold my breath!

I can see your point, but i think in some ways you answer your own question. Going into the season, the squad assembled by Peter Taylor was poor. We had no fight, no guile, no width and no pace. When taylor ws in charge, his squad was heading towards relegation. When Warnock took over, Taylor's squad he inherited continued on the same path. To save the team, Wanronck began to play kids like Scannell and Moses who had the heart and desire. He brought in pace and skill in the form of Scott Sinclair. And he brought in a bit of fight and passion in the forms of Clint Hill and Shaun Derry. Had this not hapened, we dould be in league One. There is no way Peter Taylor would have made these moves. His answer in the January window would have been to ignore his time as U-21 coach again, and find another over the hill, overpaid fat lump of crap to 'rescue us', and fail.

Plus, the tactics were different. Taylor played the idea of do nothing, try and grab a goal with the one shot on target we have, and then try and hold onto 1-0. Or if we wnt 1-0 down, the plan was 'oh well, there is always the next game'. When Warnock came in, he actually played football.

As much of a legend Taylor is, he was a horrendous manager for us.

jimos_uk
23-09-2009, 05:58 PM
This piece of scouting brilliance comes from someone who thinks we played OK against Scunthorpe.

I can't read your rubbish anyone, it's beyond bizarre! Everytime I see your name then a post I know the BBS is about to become less enjoyable.

Another for the ignore list.

David Gold :p

(I'm a huge fan of self-deprecating irony.)

Bobsta
23-09-2009, 07:47 PM
This piece of scouting brilliance comes from someone who thinks we played OK against Scunthorpe.

I can't read your rubbish anyone, it's beyond bizarre! Everytime I see your name then a post I know the BBS is about to become less enjoyable.

Another for the ignore list.

You can add me on there as well you ******* JESSY!!!!

:hi:

David
23-09-2009, 08:00 PM
You can add me on there as well you ******* JESSY!!!!

:hi:

Who are you?

Pennyfather
23-09-2009, 08:57 PM
Funny 2 managers to pick to make your point really, as under Dowie we regularly played Hughes , Routledge, Aj & (in the promotion season) Grey, all skillfull players, certainly not big athletic modern footballers.We were also exciting to watch.Not to mention that it was dowie who really gave Watson his big chance.
Then under Warnock, Watson played his best football by a county mile. Warnock has also given Scannel,Moses, Clyne & countless other of our kids a chance, none of whom, wioth the exception of N'Daye really count as the type of player you are talking about,big athletic modern footballers.

i also have my favourite players & Watson was certainly a big favourite of mine in recent years. End of last season & much of the start if this the football has not been great under Warnock. the 2 points are not unconnected IMO, but I would not use either point to jump to the conclusion you do, it makes no sense. We sold Watson not because of some dreamed up by palace fans dislike of skillfull players on Warnock's behalf, but because we needed the money.

Without getting too involved in the Warnock vs Taylor arguement, Taylor had some money to spend & by & large spent it on over the hill aged journeymen on high wages, his prerogative if the chairman is silly enough to let him. Warnock has had to deal with even less money & those self same journeymen's high wages, he's done ok in the market considering that, sadly though Carle will always get harshly judged for 2 reasons imo. 1) He has infact, taken as a whole, been pretty poor in a Palace shirt. And NO i couldn't give a shit what he did for brizzle or any other pile of poop team he has played for before. and 2) because he is the one piece of real money Warnock has had to spend, & it hasn't worked. I am betting given the chance again we would not be buying Nick Carle.


The reason I've chosen those 2 managers is because they go by the logic (& I quote ID directly) "a good big man is better than a good small man". I agree that in the promotion season we played some fantastic football but given what followed in the next 2 seasons it's a mystery to me how. ID consistently picked Soares ahead of Kolkka, Hall over Hudson & Leigertwood ahead of Watson. He also shunned players like Kaviedes & Lakis, 2 seasoned internationals in favour of harder workers & famously in our last game of the season preferred Powell over Ventola to get a goal!

NW prefers Hill over Hills, N'Diaye & Ertl over Carle, Lawrence ahead of Butts & Fonte (last season & half), Lee & Kuqi over Scannell & Moses in a striker role. He has also not given much of a chance to the likes of Griffit, Martin & Reid. Therefore I'm of the opinion that he is of the "a good big man is better than a good small man" thinking too.

kolinkins
23-09-2009, 09:02 PM
The reason I've chosen those 2 managers is because they go by the logic (& I quote ID directly) "a good big man is better than a good small man". I agree that in the promotion season we played some fantastic football but given what followed in the next 2 seasons it's a mystery to me how. ID consistently picked Soares ahead of Kolkka, Hall over Hudson & Leigertwood ahead of Watson. He also shunned players like Kaviedes & Lakis, 2 seasoned internationals in favour of harder workers & famously in our last game of the season preferred Powell over Ventola to get a goal!

NW prefers Hill over Hills, N'Diaye & Ertl over Carle, Lawrence ahead of Butts & Fonte (last season & half), Lee & Kuqi over Scannell & Moses in a striker role. He has also not given much of a chance to the likes of Griffit, Martin & Reid. Therefore I'm of the opinion that he is of the "a good big man is better than a good small man" thinking too.

But they also signed all those players they didnt always use.

(PT too favoured Kuqi and Scow over Clinton and in his 2nd season Scannell and Moses didnt even get on the radar. He also preferred the lump that is Cort of Fonte [despite signing him, using your logic], Craig over Hills etc - hardly an endorcement of technique over anything else [and dont get me started on his treatment of Speroni])

Pennyfather
23-09-2009, 09:45 PM
But they also signed all those players they didnt always use.

(PT too favoured Kuqi and Scow over Clinton and in his 2nd season Scannell and Moses didnt even get on the radar. He also preferred the lump that is Cort of Fonte [despite signing him, using your logic], Craig over Hills etc - hardly an endorcement of technique over anything else [and dont get me started on his treatment of Speroni])

This has gone way off topic!

Agree with Cort over Fonte, never really understood that one but Hills wasn't ready then & I actually liked Craig.

No idea what you mean about the treatment of Speroni but what I do know is that Speroni improved massively under PT as did many others like Hudson, Watson, Soares, McAnuff, Borrowdale & Lawrence.

kolinkins
23-09-2009, 09:51 PM
This has gone way off topic!

Sorry!

Agree with Cort over Fonte, never really understood that one but Hills wasn't ready then & I actually liked Craig.

Hills may still not be ready, but he is still better than Craig.

No idea what you mean about the treatment of Speroni but what I do know is that Speroni improved massively under PT as did many others like Hudson, Watson, Soares, McAnuff, Borrowdale & Lawrence.

The treatment of Speroni was playing Kiraly, Turner and Flinders all ahead of him.

Speroni played 13 games for PT and was solid. However, his REAL improvement came under Warnock, the first manager to show proper faith in him. Anyone trying to credit PT with that is blinded.

Watson, Soares and Borrowdale did improve - however, he was their manager at a time when it was natural for them to get better. With Watson and Soares, they were both much much better under Warnock.

Lawrence too, never a favourite of mine, was better under NW than PT.

Anyway, we're way off topic as you say.

Lets get back to Carle!

Pennyfather
23-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Sorry!



Hills may still not be ready, but he is still better than Craig.



The treatment of Speroni was playing Kiraly, Turner and Flinders all ahead of him.

Speroni played 13 games for PT and was solid. However, his REAL improvement came under Warnock, the first manager to show proper faith in him. Anyone trying to credit PT with that is blinded.

Watson, Soares and Borrowdale did improve - however, he was their manager at a time when it was natural for them to get better. With Watson and Soares, they were both much much better under Warnock.

Lawrence too, never a favourite of mine, was better under NW than PT.

Anyway, we're way off topic as you say.

Lets get back to Carle!


I'm sorry but PT did improve those players I mentioned earlier hugely albeit individually. In my mind NW hasn't improved many players at all.

Back on topic, Carle should play, simple as.

kolinkins
23-09-2009, 10:42 PM
Respect your opinion PF, but anyone who thinks PT improved Watson, Speroni and Soares more than NW isnt on planet football.

Il Padrino
24-09-2009, 08:05 AM
Under Taylor Watson had to accomodate that waste of space Kennedy in central midfield, often playing second fiddle to him. Under warnock he became the pulse of our team and added goals to his game. I'm struggling to see how anyone can think Taylor improved him

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 09:57 AM
Christ almighty! Is it any wonder I hardly post on here any more? This is precisely the reason. PT & his coaching staff turned Speroni back into a confident keeper, Hudson into a demanding centre half, Borrowdale into a reliable left back, Soares into a useful attacking midfielder rather than the defensive job ID had him doing, Lawrence into a half decent centre half/full back, McAnuff into a consistently dangerous winger with goals & most of all helped Watson mature into an all round midfielder who could tackle as well as pass.

The only amazement for me is that we didn't start very well the season PT got sacked as individually most players were doing well but collectively it didn't click.

Optimistic Kev
24-09-2009, 10:15 AM
Christ almighty! Is it any wonder I hardly post on here any more? This is precisely the reason. PT & his coaching staff turned Speroni back into a confident keeper, Hudson into a demanding centre half, Borrowdale into a reliable left back, Soares into a useful attacking midfielder rather than the defensive job ID had him doing, Lawrence into a half decent centre half/full back, McAnuff into a consistently dangerous winger with goals & most of all helped Watson mature into an all round midfielder who could tackle as well as pass.

The only amazement for me is that we didn't start very well the season PT got sacked as individually most players were doing well but collectively it didn't click.

I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree with your statement more. We actually started the season OK 4-1 at Southampton and then a draw with Leicester - then the defeats came (lots of 1-0's) if I remember correctly. The football was awful - very narrow and we had no concept of coming back from a goal down and yes we were tight at the back but this was at the expense of being creative up front.

Your comments about Speroni could not be more wrong - PT never rated Speroni, christ he played Flinders ahead of him and then loaned in Turner from Everton - hardly breeding confidence into Speroni.

Things aren't great at the moment but Peter Taylor was the most destructive manager at this club since Mullery. Despite this he is a Palace legend, as a player, most certainly not as a manager.

Il Padrino
24-09-2009, 10:43 AM
Christ almighty! Is it any wonder I hardly post on here any more? This is precisely the reason. PT & his coaching staff turned Speroni back into a confident keeper, Hudson into a demanding centre half, Borrowdale into a reliable left back, Soares into a useful attacking midfielder rather than the defensive job ID had him doing, Lawrence into a half decent centre half/full back, McAnuff into a consistently dangerous winger with goals & most of all helped Watson mature into an all round midfielder who could tackle as well as pass.

The only amazement for me is that we didn't start very well the season PT got sacked as individually most players were doing well but collectively it didn't click.

Peter Taylor dropped Speroni in favour of Flinders and then Turner.

McAnuff was so grateful for the career furtherment PT gave him he couldnt leave quick enough.

Borrowdale turned into such a reliable left back he has become a rock of the Coventry and QPR reserve teams since leaving us.

Watson, well as far as I remember PT's favoured centre midfield combo was Kennedy and Fletch.

Lawrence and Hudson were established pros before PT got his hands on them.

I wasnt born when PT played for us so cant really have an opinion on his playing days but as a manager his dour, uninspiring Palace team was matched only by dour and uninspiring personality. To me he is tha man that bought Kuqi, Kennedy, Scowcroft, Dickov and other carthorses into the team and is largely responsible for the financial mess we are in now

Gooders
24-09-2009, 11:17 AM
I'm afraid that's quite correct Il Pad. The most trugid football Palace have played in the 40 years I've been watching them, IMHO.

Gooders
24-09-2009, 11:18 AM
David Gold :p

(I'm a huge fan of self-deprecating irony.)


Me too.

If David ever posts anything that is self-deprecating, do let us know won't you.

Aaroncpfc
24-09-2009, 11:48 AM
Peter Taylor's side always had potential but the team in general was too soft. They were all potentially good individuals (as we saw when Warnock got them playing together) but couldn't click because they were far too soft. Once Sean Derry and Clint Hill were bought in to add a bit of steal to the side players like Julian Speroni, Jose Fonte, Danny Butterfield, Tom Soares and Ben Watson grew more in confidence as Derry and Hill were capable of getting involved in the side of the game that only Carl Fletcher and Mark Hudson could semi-cope with under Peter Taylor.

Il Padrino
24-09-2009, 12:03 PM
Peter Taylor's side always had potential but the team in general was too soft. They were all potentially good individuals (as we saw when Warnock got them playing together) but couldn't click because they were far too soft. Once Sean Derry and Clint Hill were bought in to add a bit of steal to the side players like Julian Speroni, Jose Fonte, Danny Butterfield, Tom Soares and Ben Watson grew more in confidence as Derry and Hill were capable of getting involved in the side of the game that only Carl Fletcher and Mark Hudson could semi-cope with under Peter Taylor.

I disagree.

When Warnock came in he changed the team by adding some much needed pace and flair to the attack and installed Fonte at the back.

Bar Hill, Derry and Sinclair, Taylor had the same players but chose to not play Fonte and keep Kennedy in the middle of the park

GreatGonzo
24-09-2009, 12:37 PM
But you're still missing a huge point.

Do you think that if PT really didn't want Kuqi he would have accepted him being forced upon him? Of course not.

I'm surprised that you put so much weight into an off the cuff comment from a manager to a supporter!

It wasn't an off the cuff comment. If you were a maanger and teh Director of football said i can get you Kuqi or nothing, what would you say knowing you were short of striking options?

GreatGonzo
24-09-2009, 12:45 PM
When taylor ws in charge, his squad was heading towards relegation. When Warnock took over, Taylor's squad he inherited continued on the same path. To save the team, Wanronck began to play kids like Scannell and Moses who had the heart and desire. He brought in pace and skill in the form of Scott Sinclair. And he brought in a bit of fight and passion in the forms of Clint Hill and Shaun Derry. Had this not hapened, we dould be in league One.

We certainly had a poor start compared to expectation but to say we would have ended up in league 1 is wild guesswork. We averaged a point a game at the start the suggestion of a relagation battle would have been worthy but equally we were pretty tight at the back and a few more goals would have seen us accelerate up the league, an equally likely guess. There was rarely more than 1 goal between the teams under Taylor so anything could have happened.

If you say we were going to end up in League 1 that season at the same time we have less points, less goals and conceeded more this season i think, so are you saying we are going down this year?

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 12:46 PM
There I go sailing off into the bbs abyss shaking my head again. :hi:

kolinkins
24-09-2009, 12:54 PM
There I go sailing off into the bbs abyss shaking my head again. :hi:

I'd walk away with my tail between my legs too if I spouting off nonsense like PT improving Speroni (by making him 4th choice), Watson (by using Kennedy ahead of him) and Soares.

See ya :hi:

sunshine lucas
24-09-2009, 12:56 PM
We certainly had a poor start compared to expectation but to say we would have ended up in league 1 is wild guesswork. We averaged a point a game at the start the suggestion of a relagation battle would have been worthy but equally we were pretty tight at the back and a few more goals would have seen us accelerate up the league, an equally likely guess. There was rarely more than 1 goal between the teams under Taylor so anything could have happened.

If you say we were going to end up in League 1 that season at the same time we have less points, less goals and conceeded more this season i think, so are you saying we are going down this year?

We were def going down under PT that year... and the difference between then and now is (among others) we do actually shoot occasionally and create a number of chances per game (even if we don't often score). PT's side were conditioned to mass behind the ball and pass sideways. We hoof it now but at least it's forwards!

GreatGonzo
24-09-2009, 12:58 PM
Your comments about Speroni could not be more wrong - PT never rated Speroni, christ he played Flinders ahead of him and then loaned in Turner from Everton - hardly breeding confidence into Speroni.

The Speroni most fans said should be sold because he was so so bad? The same Turner that most Palace fans said we should do whatever it takes to sign permenantly.

There is no doubting that Speroni was lacking form and confidence in PT's first season, Flinders was the same, and only Turner really looked good so while he was with us why would PT have brought Speroni back in. After the following pre season PT installed Speroni as the number 1, he was communicating far better, commanding his box far better and played i think every league game under Taylor before he went!

Last season i thought speroni was poorer than that season and mistakes have been creeping in again this season.

But hey its all opinions eh.

GreatGonzo
24-09-2009, 01:01 PM
We were def going down under PT that year... and the difference between then and now is (among others) we do actually shoot occasionally and create a number of chances per game (even if we don't often score). PT's side were conditioned to mass behind the ball and pass sideways. We hoof it now but at least it's forwards!

Thats nothing more than blind faith though is it. The league table, all columns tell us we are worse off than when PT was sacked!

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 01:05 PM
I'd walk away with my tail between my legs too if I spouting off nonsense like PT improving Speroni (by making him 4th choice), Watson (by using Kennedy ahead of him) and Soares.

See ya :hi:

I can't let this go without comment. TWAT!

I will now leave you & others to your shallow minded, naive, twisted & prejudice views.

palacemaniac
24-09-2009, 01:09 PM
Watching PT's Palace was extremely depressing, the team showed no desire and no imagination. Glad we got rid when we did.

GreatGonzo
24-09-2009, 01:19 PM
Watching PT's Palace was extremely depressing, the team showed no desire and no imagination. Glad we got rid when we did.

2,000 (15%) less attending the early games this season compared to 2007/08 would suggest people are no happier now.

Il Padrino
24-09-2009, 01:19 PM
Thats nothing more than blind faith though is it. The league table, all columns tell us we are worse off than when PT was sacked!

I thought we were second bottom when PT was sacked?
In terms of league placing, perfomances etc, I agree we are not far from Taylor's performance.

However, one manager got us into that situation spending millions - both on fees and wages, with a chairman who still had some interest in the game and had cash to back him up. The other has us there without a pot to piss in and still manages to conjure up victories and performances like Ipswich and mAn City.

When did Taylor's side ever 'really' beat someone? When did PT bring the whole club together like NW did at home to Burnley? When did anyone leave Selhurst feeling anything other than suicidal under Taylor?

There are issues with Warnock. His insistence on this formation and reliance on a big man when we saw what happens when we play it properly are two of the main ones, but for anti-Warnock people to hold up Taylor as not only a better manager but some kind of saviour we never had because he was sacked to early is proper, honest to goodness madness

Il Padrino
24-09-2009, 01:23 PM
2,000 (15%) less attending the early games this season compared to 2007/08 would suggest people are no happier now.

Well, there has been financial Armageddon, highest levels of unemployment etc for years since Taylor left! :D

palacemaniac
24-09-2009, 01:25 PM
2,000 (15%) less attending the early games this season compared to 2007/08 would suggest people are no happier now.

Do you think there's a direct correlation between the attendances and the quality of football or do other factors such as the credit crunch, another year without premier league football, the fact we've sold most of our best players come into it? Would attendances go up if PT returned?

DE - Glad All Over
24-09-2009, 01:54 PM
All of the above, but quality of football the biggest part me thinks...

limited_edition
24-09-2009, 04:00 PM
I can't let this go without comment. TWAT!

I will now leave you & others to your shallow minded, naive, twisted & prejudice views.Good to see ya back, PF. Some people just can't disagree with others without getting personal and nasty. Don't let 'em get to you. Just put 'em on ignore. It'd be sad to see you go.

Now as for Carle, I was very disappointed that 2 defensive midfielders in Dezza and Ertl were used ahead of him v Derby. NW clearly doesn't rate Carle this and therefore that was a million quid down the pisser. A million we could have used on a much needed striker like maybe Beattie, who knows ?

dufski13
24-09-2009, 04:48 PM
The reason I've chosen those 2 managers is because they go by the logic (& I quote ID directly) "a good big man is better than a good small man". I agree that in the promotion season we played some fantastic football but given what followed in the next 2 seasons it's a mystery to me how. ID consistently picked Soares ahead of Kolkka, Hall over Hudson & Leigertwood ahead of Watson. He also shunned players like Kaviedes & Lakis, 2 seasoned internationals in favour of harder workers & famously in our last game of the season preferred Powell over Ventola to get a goal!

NW prefers Hill over Hills, N'Diaye & Ertl over Carle, Lawrence ahead of Butts & Fonte (last season & half), Lee & Kuqi over Scannell & Moses in a striker role. He has also not given much of a chance to the likes of Griffit, Martin & Reid. Therefore I'm of the opinion that he is of the "a good big man is better than a good small man" thinking too.

Ok I've been too busy at work to respond to you on this, but you are pretty much completely wrong in almost everything you say here. Firstly I don't recall that Dowie quote, but in light of AJ's contribution I doubt very much it's true.
But let's just put some numbers from the clubs site to the nonsense you are spoutiong here.
1) ID picked Soares over Kolkka, well the truth is that in the prem season kolkka made 20 appearances to Soares 16.
2) ID did pick Hall over Hudson, but Hudson started the season & had a terrible start, so was dropped. Whenever he came back into the side he looked very nervy. He took a long time to play himself back into form.I've no problem with that choice, & in any case it's not as if Hudson turned out to be Rio ferdinand in disguise, possibly a poor mans Anton !
3)In the prem Id played Watson & Leigertwood 16 times each, but bear in mind that some of Leigertwood's appearance were made as a defender. the following year Watson made 40 appearances as opposed to Leigertwood's 18.
Kaviedes & Lakis both looked lightweight when they made appearances. Not to mention that lakis was not an established international in theway you imply, he was very much a second string player for the Greek national team, who, although had great pace, had little end product. you could even go further & argue that if lakis had the quality you imagine him to have he'd have taken one of the 2 gilt edged chances he had against Arsenal at home & we'd have stayed up !

I agree that at Charlton the decision to bring on powell rather than ventola was bonkers, I was there & we were screaming for it to be Ventola.

BUT here's where your arguement really falls down about our recent managers choices of players. in 2006/2007 under PT Watson only made 19 appearances as opposed to Kennedy 's 34 & Fletcher's 33. (grr that makes me so ANGRY - He really was a clueless chump)

Warnock last season gave the following appearances to his strikers Moses 19,Kuqi 20,Lee 10,Scannell 16,beattie 15,Stokes 11. Doesn't really bear out your assertion that Warnock clearly favours Lee/Kuqi over Mose & Scannell.

These stats are from the official site, feel free to check them, but the one thing it shows is this idea that it was under PT that our creative youngsters flourished & they were stiffled before & after is clearly utter nonsense

dufski13
24-09-2009, 05:05 PM
Christ almighty! Is it any wonder I hardly post on here any more? This is precisely the reason. PT & his coaching staff turned Speroni back into a confident keeper, Hudson into a demanding centre half, Borrowdale into a reliable left back, Soares into a useful attacking midfielder rather than the defensive job ID had him doing, Lawrence into a half decent centre half/full back, McAnuff into a consistently dangerous winger with goals & most of all helped Watson mature into an all round midfielder who could tackle as well as pass.

The only amazement for me is that we didn't start very well the season PT got sacked as individually most players were doing well but collectively it didn't click.

Why if ID had Soares playing as a defensive midfielder do you in an earlier post on this thread claim (wrongly as it happens) that ID preferred Soares to kolkka ? Presumably because , correctly in that assertion,you remember ID playing Soares as a winger. The person who brought Soares in from the wing & finally got him playing as a goal scoring attacking midfielder was of course Warnock, sadly since he's left Soares seems to again have dis-appeared.
Look I am not convinced by some of Warnock's tactics, & like every other football manager he gets it wrong sometimes. Even the very best get it wrong from time to time, Man Utd's toothless display in last season's champions league final anyone ? BUt Warnock has actually IMO wrought the best out of our homegrown talent ina way that both ID & particularly PT failed to do. I personally don't think there is any problem with Scannell & Moses development over the last season or so, i think the problem lies with grossly unrealistic expectations of very young players by the Palace fans. They may well both be destined one day for the glittering lights of the top of the tree, but certainly neither are ready for that just yet, & young players are famously inconsistent.

Neckinger Eagle
24-09-2009, 05:29 PM
For a minute I thought I had stumbled into a Wycombe Wanderers forum debating Peter Taylor.

To save my brain cells looking for the last on topic post, is there any truth in Nick Carle going to Newcastle Jets?

kolinkins
24-09-2009, 05:34 PM
Good to see ya back, PF. Some people just can't disagree with others without getting personal and nasty. Don't let 'em get to you. Just put 'em on ignore. It'd be sad to see you go.

Tell me where I was personal. Look at dufski13's posts to see how wrong PF is. Do you honestly think PT improved Speroni, Watson and Soares more than NW?

Now as for Carle, I was very disappointed that 2 defensive midfielders in Dezza and Ertl were used ahead of him v Derby. NW clearly doesn't rate Carle this and therefore that was a million quid down the pisser. A million we could have used on a much needed striker like maybe Beattie, who knows ?

We won, yet you were disappointed? No pleasing some

kolinkins
24-09-2009, 05:38 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dufski13 again.

I want to rep both posts!

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 06:33 PM
Ok I've been too busy at work to respond to you on this, but you are pretty much completely wrong in almost everything you say here. Firstly I don't recall that Dowie quote, but in light of AJ's contribution I doubt very much it's true.

You wouldn't recall it as it was a statement directly from him at a youth game on the training ground & I was within earshot.


But let's just put some numbers from the clubs site to the nonsense you are spoutiong here.
1) ID picked Soares over Kolkka, well the truth is that in the prem season kolkka made 20 appearances to Soares 16.

On the face of it yes it looks a bizarre comment but the fact is that from Soares 1st start in the league (around xmas I believe) he then started almost every game ahead of Kolkka so the stat is a little misleading.


2) ID did pick Hall over Hudson, but Hudson started the season & had a terrible start, so was dropped. Whenever he came back into the side he looked very nervy. He took a long time to play himself back into form.I've no problem with that choice, & in any case it's not as if Hudson turned out to be Rio ferdinand in disguise, possibly a poor mans Anton !

In the prem yes but I was talking more about the following season in ccc when despite Hall being awful he remained 1st choice.

3)In the prem Id played Watson & Leigertwood 16 times each, but bear in mind that some of Leigertwood's appearance were made as a defender. the following year Watson made 40 appearances as opposed to Leigertwood's 18.

Another stat that is a little misleading as it was in many very important games that Leigertwood was preferred to Watson. He also substituted Watson far too many times when he was playing well or even directly after he'd scored!

Kaviedes & Lakis both looked lightweight when they made appearances. Not to mention that lakis was not an established international in theway you imply, he was very much a second string player for the Greek national team, who, although had great pace, had little end product. you could even go further & argue that if lakis had the quality you imagine him to have he'd have taken one of the 2 gilt edged chances he had against Arsenal at home & we'd have stayed up !

Let's face it neither really had a chance did they? Kaviedes only started once & Lakis not much more & even then he was played out of position!


I agree that at Charlton the decision to bring on powell rather than ventola was bonkers, I was there & we were screaming for it to be Ventola.

At last!


BUT here's where your arguement really falls down about our recent managers choices of players. in 2006/2007 under PT Watson only made 19 appearances as opposed to Kennedy 's 34 & Fletcher's 33. (grr that makes me so ANGRY - He really was a clueless chump)

Watson was injured for a large part of that season after Bristol Rovers away.

Warnock last season gave the following appearances to his strikers Moses 19,Kuqi 20,Lee 10,Scannell 16,beattie 15,Stokes 11. Doesn't really bear out your assertion that Warnock clearly favours Lee/Kuqi over Mose & Scannell.

Quite simply how many of those appearances between Scannell & Moses were as a striker? Very few.


These stats are from the official site, feel free to check them, but the one thing it shows is this idea that it was under PT that our creative youngsters flourished & they were stiffled before & after is clearly utter nonsense

I never said that "our creative youngsters flourished". I merely stated that many of our players improved greatly under PT & his coaching staff whereas I don't believe many have under NW.

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 06:47 PM
Why if ID had Soares playing as a defensive midfielder do you in an earlier post on this thread claim (wrongly as it happens) that ID preferred Soares to kolkka ? Presumably because , correctly in that assertion,you remember ID playing Soares as a winger. The person who brought Soares in from the wing & finally got him playing as a goal scoring attacking midfielder was of course Warnock, sadly since he's left Soares seems to again have dis-appeared.

You've got this one a bit mixed up I'm afraid. Kolkka was an out & out winger, an attacking player with an eye for goal. ID played Kolkka consistently for the 1st third or so of the season through a bad patch until he hit some fantastic form. Then the negative in ID came racing to the surface & he preferred Soares for almost all of the remainder of the season as he played with much more defensive discipline & offered more cover to the full back.

Incidently, this defensive tactic was a major reason we got relegated as we averaged more points per game with Kolkka in the side than Soares. Our best average points per game though was when we played two strikers but then that rarely happened!!

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 06:50 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dufski13 again.

I want to rep both posts!

Are you really as stupid as you sound? What the f#ck does "spread some reputation" mean?

You should also know by now that I don't give a toss if I'm "giving it" to you, dufski13 or the bloody queen! If I have a point to make I'll make it.

kolinkins
24-09-2009, 09:04 PM
Are you really as stupid as you sound? What the f#ck does "spread some reputation" mean?

You should also know by now that I don't give a toss if I'm "giving it" to you, dufski13 or the bloody queen! If I have a point to make I'll make it.

Eh?

palacemaniac
24-09-2009, 09:08 PM
Are you really as stupid as you sound? What the f#ck does "spread some reputation" mean?

You should also know by now that I don't give a toss if I'm "giving it" to you, dufski13 or the bloody queen! If I have a point to make I'll make it.

:D :lux: :D

This is priceless :D

gold76
24-09-2009, 09:09 PM
I'm slighly surprised to see PT brought up tbh
Yes he was a great player & a reasonable coach at lower league level.
However as Palace manager was distinctly average who bought very poor signings.

NW is in charge now & whilst things haven't started too well, his only really questionable signing pound for pound has been Carle.

I'm hoping the player can force his way back in the team & justify his fee, although I can see the merit of a Derry & Ertl midfield giving us extra bite at the moment

palacemaniac
24-09-2009, 09:12 PM
Pennyfather's avatar is appropriate

limited_edition
24-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Are you really as stupid as you sound? What the f#ck does "spread some reputation" mean?Er, I hate to point this out P/F, but you've obviously been away for a while and don't understand the reputation points system. If a poster has been given too many rep points by a particular poster, you get that "spread some rep around" (giving rep to other posts) message before you can give him or her some rep in future.

But then again, as your posts are being obsessively stalked by the K-man (I've been, SW16 girl's been, glaziers has been, anyone who dares to have an opposing view to his has been) I can understand the red mist descending. Do what I do. Just put the K-man on ignore. He can't get the shit stirring argument he so craves if you do that. Unfortunately, he's such a wind up merchant that people keep quoting his inane drivel.

Now, about Nick Carle. If we are going for 2 strikers, I don't see why we should also have 2 defensive midfielders in the centre. It's not as if we have 2 out and out wingers who bomb forward leaving the midfield over exposed. For me it's between Danns and Carle for the attacking midfield slot alongside Dezza if we are going 4-4-2 (of sorts, minus the wingers). I think Carle could also slot into a 4-3-3 with Danns and Dezza, too. N'Diaye needs time, but I think he could challenge again for the midfield berth, too, long term.

palacemaniac
24-09-2009, 09:29 PM
Er, I hate to point this out P/F, but you've obviously been away for a while and don't understand the reputation points system. If a poster has been given too many rep points by a particular poster, you get that "spread some rep around" (giving rep to other posts) message before you can give him or her some rep in future.

:( spoil sport

Pennyfather
24-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Er, I hate to point this out P/F, but you've obviously been away for a while and don't understand the reputation points system. If a poster has been given too many rep points by a particular poster, you get that "spread some rep around" (giving rep to other posts) message before you can give him or her some rep in future.

But then again, as your posts are being obsessively stalked by the K-man (I've been, SW16 girl's been, glaziers has been, anyone who dares to have an opposing view to his has been) I can understand the red mist descending. Do what I do. Just put the K-man on ignore. He can't get the shit stirring argument he so craves if you do that. Unfortunately, he's such a wind up merchant that people keep quoting his inane drivel.

Now, about Nick Carle. If we are going for 2 strikers, I don't see why we should also have 2 defensive midfielders in the centre. It's not as if we have 2 out and out wingers who bomb forward leaving the midfield over exposed. For me it's between Danns and Carle for the attacking midfield slot alongside Dezza if we are going 4-4-2 (of sorts, minus the wingers). I think Carle could also slot into a 4-3-3 with Danns and Dezza, too. N'Diaye needs time, but I think he could challenge again for the midfield berth, too, long term.


:D Had absolutely no idea about this rep thing! Oh well, no apology needed as it's only him. Was still a great post though. ;)

On Carle I agree that in a 442 which is what most of us would like to see us play then it's a straight choice between Carle & Danns (Carle for me every time but I do like Danns also). However, if NW insists on the 433/451 formation then the midfield 3 simply has to contain Carle as our playmaker otherwise they system falls down.

Il Padrino
25-09-2009, 07:33 AM
Pennyfather, when you say younger players improved more under pt than nw I take it you mean off the pitch? There's no doubt he is a good coach for young players as his England record shows and I think they probably did benefit from him on the training pitch.

GodstoneEagle
25-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Klinx, fair play if you want to make a point but I don't think there any need to be so aggressive and abrasive.

kolinkins
25-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Klinx, fair play if you want to make a point but I don't think there any need to be so aggressive and abrasive.

I don't think I was (any more so than I received), but if I was, I apologise.

This isn't the thread for it, but I really want to know how PT improved said players more than Warnock. I also want to know why certain posters (not aimed at just PF) seem to take pleasure in NW seemingly not doing well and refuse to give any due credit

Gooders
25-09-2009, 06:08 PM
I don't think I was (any more so than I received), but if I was, I apologise.


I thought I'd better quote this as you are on everyone's ignore list. :p

I don't think you were particularly harsh either but you can't have a debate in here anymore without the usual suspects sneering and sniping so I'd give up if I were you.

I think it's a real shame Pennyfather doesn't contribute any more - even though I rarely agreed with him at least he was prepared to debate stuff without resorting to childish brickbats.

Another avenue of Palace pleasure that has turned into a cul-de-sac. :(

Pennyfather
25-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Pennyfather, when you say younger players improved more under pt than nw I take it you mean off the pitch? There's no doubt he is a good coach for young players as his England record shows and I think they probably did benefit from him on the training pitch.


Yes off the pitch but on the pitch too individually. I would look at games & think that most players had played well yet the result may not have been a good one. That is where PT was not so good in terms of getting his team to gel together & perform as a team. His selection, tactics & training were good imo & better than NW.

Where NW is better is getting the team playing better together but I do believe he falls down in some of these other areas.

Let's face it though we're unlikely to have many managers that tick all the boxes due to our size & profile & even if we did they'd be gone quickly.

Pennyfather
25-09-2009, 06:48 PM
I think it's a real shame Pennyfather doesn't contribute any more - even though I rarely agreed with him at least he was prepared to debate stuff without resorting to childish brickbats.

Another avenue of Palace pleasure that has turned into a cul-de-sac. :(

Thanks for your words Gooders.

kolinkins
25-09-2009, 08:42 PM
I thought I'd better quote this as you are on everyone's ignore list. :p

:D

I don't think you were particularly harsh either but you can't have a debate in here anymore without the usual suspects sneering and sniping so I'd give up if I were you.

You're right - I cant reply to any BBS without one of about 3 others (1 of whom claims to have me on ignore piping it. I will try to let it go, as I cannot reason with stupidity.

I think it's a real shame Pennyfather doesn't contribute any more - even though I rarely agreed with him at least he was prepared to debate stuff without resorting to childish brickbats.

Another avenue of Palace pleasure that has turned into a cul-de-sac. :(

Agree re: PF. When the subject isnt PT or NW, he's the epitome of what a Palace fan should be.

Ian Hart
25-09-2009, 10:43 PM
So is Nick Carle going to Newcastle Jets?

(Sorry to take this off topic)

orp pisshead1
25-09-2009, 11:10 PM
So is Nick Carle going to Newcastle Jets?

(Sorry to take this off topic)

:D :D :lux:

rainbow_child
25-09-2009, 11:30 PM
So is Nick Carle going to Newcastle Jets?

(Sorry to take this off topic)

LOL haha :p :D :lux:

dufski13
26-09-2009, 12:11 AM
Nick Carle's proposed move to Newcastle Jets is expecated to propel Nick into the slip stream of GLOBAL football.Oh & a world cup place.hehehe. I don't really ever get stoned, but now I am, the BBS seems a good place to play ?

Il Padrino
27-09-2009, 10:27 AM
Yes off the pitch but on the pitch too individually. I would look at games & think that most players had played well yet the result may not have been a good one. That is where PT was not so good in terms of getting his team to gel together & perform as a team. His selection, tactics & training were good imo & better than NW.

Where NW is better is getting the team playing better together but I do believe he falls down in some of these other areas.

Let's face it though we're unlikely to have many managers that tick all the boxes due to our size & profile & even if we did they'd be gone quickly.

I can't agree with what you say about tactics and team being better than warnocks. Could you name one stand out performnce from a peter Taylor team? He probably was very good with kids on the training pitch, but then didn't think enough of them to give them a game. I guess that's what to expect from a manager who fills an AJ shaped hole in the attack with James scowcroft....

GodstoneEagle
27-09-2009, 01:35 PM
I thought I'd better quote this as you are on everyone's ignore list. :p

I don't think you were particularly harsh either but you can't have a debate in here anymore without the usual suspects sneering and sniping so I'd give up if I were you.

I think it's a real shame Pennyfather doesn't contribute any more - even though I rarely agreed with him at least he was prepared to debate stuff without resorting to childish brickbats.

Another avenue of Palace pleasure that has turned into a cul-de-sac. :(
good stuff

Pennyfather
27-09-2009, 08:56 PM
I can't agree with what you say about tactics and team being better than warnocks. Could you name one stand out performnce from a peter Taylor team? He probably was very good with kids on the training pitch, but then didn't think enough of them to give them a game. I guess that's what to expect from a manager who fills an AJ shaped hole in the attack with James scowcroft....


Yes, three games spring to mind immediately. WBA away won 3-2, Colchester away won 2-0 & Sheff Utd home won 3-2.

David
27-09-2009, 10:09 PM
The thing that annoys me about people slagging off Peter Taylor's signings is that Taylor did what most of us wanted him to do, thus being finding young talent and try to mould them into decent players. He took a big gamble signing Jeff Hughes and Tony Craig and yes they were disasters, but how many of you were moaning at the time when he brought in these highly rated players?!

He tried but the players were not good enough. Surely it was better to take the risk and try.

Taylor lost the most important player in our defensive unit in Emmerson Boyce who was head and shoulders the best defender we've had in years - he beat AJ to the player of the year trophy!! He had a big rebuilding job to do.

I'm not saying that it was wrong to part company with him because I actually think it was the right decision - but to criticise the man for buying highly rated players from the lower leagues is silly.

limited_edition
27-09-2009, 10:45 PM
I guess that's what to expect from a manager who fills an AJ shaped hole in the attack with James scowcroft....Well, NW filled a Clinton shaped hole in attack with Scowie. When he plays, we play apparently...........:rolleyes:

We are still suffering now from the above mistake of letting a goalscorer go. But I hope to see more of an attack as at WBA with VicMo, Scannell and/or Sears, rather than a big striker as the focus for our attacking play. Sounds like N'Diaye pushed on from midfield to fill that role, anyway.

palacemaniac
28-09-2009, 07:42 AM
Well, NW filled a Clinton shaped hole in attack with Scowie. When he plays, we play apparently...........:rolleyes:

We are still suffering now from the above mistake of letting a goalscorer go. But I hope to see more of an attack as at WBA with VicMo, Scannell and/or Sears, rather than a big striker as the focus for our attacking play. Sounds like N'Diaye pushed on from midfield to fill that role, anyway.

No mistake, we couln't afford him

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 08:03 AM
David, I'm struggling to see how kuqi, scowcroft, Kennedy, cort, ifill and Lawrence are up and coming talent from the lower leagues!

L-E, as has been mentioned it was all about money. Mick jones' recent blog post should hopefully put the rumour that CM walked to bed

dufski13
28-09-2009, 10:33 AM
The thing that annoys me about people slagging off Peter Taylor's signings is that Taylor did what most of us wanted him to do, thus being finding young talent and try to mould them into decent players. He took a big gamble signing Jeff Hughes and Tony Craig and yes they were disasters, but how many of you were moaning at the time when he brought in these highly rated players?!

.

I was pleased at the time of signing Jeff Hughes, as at the time,wrongly as it so happens, I thought that PT would have had a really good knowledge of the young up & coming british players he could tap into. I also think that Tony Craig might have been ok for us had he really ever been given a chance. He probably would have been no more than a utility reserve player, but would he have been any worse than Lawrence over the last few seasons ? Not sure.
But the over riding majority of PT's signings, & where he spent the real money was on Ageing carthorse journeymen. We never saw what we all hoped, which was really good young talent coming into the club. I hate to say it but even his achievements with the U21's have to be put into perspective,considering how well his successors have done with the same age group. Pearce (hardly a much praised manager), has taken them to their first tournament final.

PT was who I had wanted as manager all along, i wanted him when Dowie got the job, & I was really excited by his appointment. Sadly that is where the excitment ended. He is best suited to lower league management, which I think his record clearly now shows.

Back on topic, I have been hugely under whelmed by Carle's contribution for us, but I can't see him being let go of until we have the embargo lifted & unless his fee funds some kind of replacement for the squad.

Just as an aside, PT's record in the transfer market for me was pretty poor, But so far Warnock's has not been great, certainly where he has spent money it hasn't turned out too well. Although overall i am quite happy with this summer's business on no money.

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Back on topic, I have been hugely under whelmed by Carle's contribution for us, but I can't see him being let go of until we have the embargo lifted & unless his fee funds some kind of replacement for the squad..

I think if he was given the freedom N'Diaye has to go forward we'd see a lot more of him, but I agree with you and think he will be sold pretty soon

David
28-09-2009, 12:19 PM
David, I'm struggling to see how kuqi, scowcroft, Kennedy, cort, ifill and Lawrence are up and coming talent from the lower leagues!

L-E, as has been mentioned it was all about money. Mick jones' recent blog post should hopefully put the rumour that CM walked to bed

When did I mention them........

Hughes and Craig were two signings many of us were exicted about, it didn't work out - but at least he tried.

Oh! Leon Cort was very highly rated at Hull before we signed him.

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 12:44 PM
When did I mention them........

Hughes and Craig were two signings many of us were exicted about, it didn't work out - but at least he tried.

Oh! Leon Cort was very highly rated at Hull before we signed him.

You said it here, implying that his whole transfer policy was based on digging up gems from the lower leagues.

[QUOTE=David]The thing that annoys me about people slagging off Peter Taylor's signings is that Taylor did what most of us wanted him to do, thus being finding young talent and try to mould them into decent players.[QUOTE=David]

So what you're saying he actually did is buy two young players from the lower leagues and they were both light years away from being good enough for the championship - just look where they are playing now, Bristol Rovers and Millwall?

You can't say that his team selection or transfer policy was aimed at young, exciting players. It was all no-paced over the hill carthorses

David
28-09-2009, 12:59 PM
You said it here, implying that his whole transfer policy was based on digging up gems from the lower leagues.

[QUOTE=David]The thing that annoys me about people slagging off Peter Taylor's signings is that Taylor did what most of us wanted him to do, thus being finding young talent and try to mould them into decent players.[QUOTE=David]

So what you're saying he actually did is buy two young players from the lower leagues and they were both light years away from being good enough for the championship - just look where they are playing now, Bristol Rovers and Millwall?

You can't say that his team selection or transfer policy was aimed at young, exciting players. It was all no-paced over the hill carthorses

I didn't mention the others as I thought it was obvious that a manager would bring in experience alongside youth.

As for the other players..........I think it can be equally said that these players let Taylor and us down with their performances.

Cort - Highly rated from Hull, Won our player of the year in 2007. Paid far too much money for him. Brilliant in the air but was awful on the deck.

Paul Ifill - A player who had done very well at Millwall and had lots of injuries at Sheffield United. A player who could have offered us something but spent more time on the tretment table.

Mark Kennedy - probably one of the best passers of the ball we have seen at Selhurst. A player with a big reputaton for past glories, Taylor hoped he could rekindle that form but alas he was poor.

Shefki Kuqi - Paid too much money for him, had all the attributes to be an excellent Championship striker. One problem though - his attitude stunk!

James Scowcroft - despite the petition to not sign him on here he was actually very good at times. Didn't score enough goals and inevitably was the taget of the boo boys. By no means a bad player just wasn't really an exciting player.

Matt Lawrence - Warnock gave him a new contract since he signed for taylor so he is equally his player as well.

Carl Fletcher - West Ham fans sorry to see him go, 400k looked a bargain.

At the time these all looked good signings on paper, unfortunately they let us and Taylor down badly. If they had all played to their potential who knows where we would be now!

sydnsteve
28-09-2009, 01:02 PM
Surely we aren't really still going over what sort of manager PT was? I really, really wanted him to succeed, but he produced the most mind numbing, defensively minded dross I've seen since I watched Palace. I think he is responsible for knocking a couiple of thousand off the gate.

NW is no tactical genius, and has served up his fair share of crap, but I fail to see who we could get who would be better, esp when you consider the impossible constraints he is working under.

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE=Il Padrino]You said it here, implying that his whole transfer policy was based on digging up gems from the lower leagues.

[QUOTE=David]The thing that annoys me about people slagging off Peter Taylor's signings is that Taylor did what most of us wanted him to do, thus being finding young talent and try to mould them into decent players.

I didn't mention the others as I thought it was obvious that a manager would bring in experience alongside youth.

As for the other players..........I think it can be equally said that these players let Taylor and us down with their performances.

Cort - Highly rated from Hull, Won our player of the year in 2007. Paid far too much money for him. Brilliant in the air but was awful on the deck.

Paul Ifill - A player who had done very well at Millwall and had lots of injuries at Sheffield United. A player who could have offered us something but spent more time on the tretment table.

Mark Kennedy - probably one of the best passers of the ball we have seen at Selhurst. A player with a big reputaton for past glories, Taylor hoped he could rekindle that form but alas he was poor.

Shefki Kuqi - Paid too much money for him, had all the attributes to be an excellent Championship striker. One problem though - his attitude stunk!

James Scowcroft - despite the petition to not sign him on here he was actually very good at times. Didn't score enough goals and inevitably was the taget of the boo boys. By no means a bad player just wasn't really an exciting player.

Matt Lawrence - Warnock gave him a new contract since he signed for taylor so he is equally his player as well.

Carl Fletcher - West Ham fans sorry to see him go, 400k looked a bargain.

At the time these all looked good signings on paper, unfortunately they let us and Taylor down badly. If they had all played to their potential who knows where we would be now!

Taylor picked the tactics, which were the most negative I've ever seen at Palace.

Taylor decided to keep seven (at least sometimes) back for corners

Taylor decided that we didn't need a pacy, exciting striker after AJ left, the money would be better off buying James Scowcroft.

You can see the pattern coming here, maybe they didnt perform for him - if you look at the way their careers have gone since leaving us I cant think of one that is playing at a higher level earning rave reviews. They are at Orient, Bristol Rovers, Hartlepool and New Zealand is it for Ifill? So I guess they are playing to their potential, wow, I wish we were there too!

I'd also argue that as his dour, unimaginative tactics were mirrored in his personality (ask the croydon advertiser and SLP what he was like to work with) and the players found it pretty hard to 'perform' for him. Its funny that with more or less the same group of players we went from second bottom to the play off semis dont you think? Why is that? The players all purposely underperformed under Taylor but upped their game when Warnock came? Or that Taylor was as bad at motivating as he was at tactics and in the transfer market?

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 01:13 PM
Surely we aren't really still going over what sort of manager PT was? I really, really wanted him to succeed, but he produced the most mind numbing, defensively minded dross I've seen since I watched Palace. I think he is responsible for knocking a couiple of thousand off the gate.
.

Indeed.

There are people like David and Pennyfather who are obviously big fans of his, I guess it goes back to his playing days. On my part, I wasnt born when he played for us and was looking forward to a 'legend' coming home to take over, only for him to buy crap and serve up shyte. I guess if he was your idol when you were younger you might view him differently

David
28-09-2009, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=David][QUOTE=Il Padrino]You said it here, implying that his whole transfer policy was based on digging up gems from the lower leagues.



Taylor picked the tactics, which were the most negative I've ever seen at Palace.

Taylor decided to keep seven (at least sometimes) back for corners

Taylor decided that we didn't need a pacy, exciting striker after AJ left, the money would be better off buying James Scowcroft.

You can see the pattern coming here, maybe they didnt perform for him - if you look at the way their careers have gone since leaving us I cant think of one that is playing at a higher level earning rave reviews. They are at Orient, Bristol Rovers, Hartlepool and New Zealand is it for Ifill? So I guess they are playing to their potential, wow, I wish we were there too!

I'd also argue that as his dour, unimaginative tactics were mirrored in his personality (ask the croydon advertiser and SLP what he was like to work with) and the players found it pretty hard to 'perform' for him. Its funny that with more or less the same group of players we went from second bottom to the play off semis dont you think? Why is that? The players all purposely underperformed under Taylor but upped their game when Warnock came? Or that Taylor was as bad at motivating as he was at tactics and in the transfer market?

I'm not for one minute suggesting that Taylor should have been given more time because I think he was rightfully sacked. All I'm saying is that these players were at one time very good or had potential and I think they let him down. In much the same way Taylor let us down with his tactics.

I agree his tactics were poor and far too defensive.

David
28-09-2009, 01:20 PM
Indeed.

There are people like David and Pennyfather who are obviously big fans of his, I guess it goes back to his playing days. On my part, I wasnt born when he played for us and was looking forward to a 'legend' coming home to take over, only for him to buy crap and serve up shyte. I guess if he was your idol when you were younger you might view him differently


I'm not a big fan of him as a manager, as if you would have read my previous posts from yesterday you would see I said he should have been sacked. I never saw Taylor play, I'm 26. I just met the guy and found him to be a very decent guy..........that is all!

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 01:20 PM
[QUOTE=Il Padrino][QUOTE=David]

I'm not for one minute suggesting that Taylor should have been given more time because I think he was rightfully sacked. All I'm saying is that these players were at one time very good or had potential and I think they let him down. In much the same way Taylor let us down with his tactics.

I agree his tactics were poor and far too defensive.

OK, lets leave the PT stuff shall we? :)

what do you make of Carle? sell in the transfer window or keep?

David
28-09-2009, 01:22 PM
[QUOTE=David][QUOTE=Il Padrino]

OK,

what do you make of Carle? sell in the transfer window or keep?

It depends on Warnock really. If he wants to continue with Alan Lee up front then I say sell, but if he wants to play Scannell and Sears together I say keep and let him play behind those two.

David
28-09-2009, 01:22 PM
[QUOTE=David][QUOTE=Il Padrino]

OK, lets leave the PT stuff shall we? :)

what do you make of Carle? sell in the transfer window or keep?

:p

Vince Hilaire's Afro
28-09-2009, 01:53 PM
[QUOTE=David][QUOTE=Il Padrino]

OK, lets leave the PT stuff shall we? :)

what do you make of Carle? sell in the transfer window or keep?

I think it would have been interesting to see what people would have said if Taylor had signed Carle.........













;)

dufski13
28-09-2009, 02:15 PM
[QUOTE=Il Padrino][QUOTE=David]

It depends on Warnock really. If he wants to continue with Alan Lee up front then I say sell, but if he wants to play Scannell and Sears together I say keep and let him play behind those two.

In the unlikely event of Warnock making that his game plan A (which is a shame, I think I might enjoy seeing us play that way) I would much rather see Victor Moses playing behind those 2.
I do wonder if aftr saturday we may see us playing an enterprising 4-5-1 like we did in effect on saturday. Which may mean that there is more of an opportunity for Carle, & maybe with a little less pressure on him we can see him get to express himself & show the talent he clearly has,maybe. I wouldn't mind seeing us try that formation with Victor given license to join the attack at will, would be exciting, & we may end up seeing Sean & Victor regularly playing through the middle.

limited_edition
28-09-2009, 02:15 PM
No mistake, we couln't afford himHe still vastly overrated journeymen donkies like Scowie. Like he did Lawrence.

Panther
28-09-2009, 05:22 PM
I guess if he was your idol when you were younger you might view him differently

Nope. Taylor would be a shoe-in to my Palace Team of All Time but I hated him as a (Palace) manager. Almost nothing I liked about him as a player had been translated into his managership. Another reason why I doubt the wisdom of calling for Palace "legends" to return as managers.

917L
28-09-2009, 07:36 PM
Nope. Taylor would be a shoe-in to my Palace Team of All Time but I hated him as a (Palace) manager. Almost nothing I liked about him as a player had been translated into his managership. Another reason why I doubt the wisdom of calling for Palace "legends" to return as managers.

Agree with that, he is atrue Palace great, but the flip side is that he was one of the worst managers I've witnessed here

Anyway I'm sure we've doen this to death before

Nick carle.....

Il Padrino
28-09-2009, 07:42 PM
Who do you drop do fit carle in? As I said he might do well in the role n'dyie has but other than that can't see how he would fit in

Ian Hart
28-09-2009, 10:26 PM
Who do you drop do fit carle in? As I said he might do well in the role n'dyie has but other than that can't see how he would fit in

N'Diaye must be the most mis-spelled name on these boards People tend to get the N and the E in the right place, and guess the rest. ;)

I think the problem with Carle is that his style of play is not suited to a 4-3-3. You can't play him in a holding role in the centre of midfield, and he hasn't the pace to play wide.

You would only get the best out of him in a genuine 4-4-2, in the centre of midfield, with a holding player alongside him. But besides N'Diaye, Danns would also have a better claim alongside Derry in such a system.

Beanie
29-09-2009, 10:11 AM
At the time these all looked good signings on paper, unfortunately they let us and Taylor down badly. If they had all played to their potential who knows where we would be now!
You are right that the signings you quote looked okay on paper and that they didn't do it at Palace. Question - why did they ALL go bad at Palace? Any manager gets some wrong even if they looked right at the time, but all or the majority? Either they were poor signings or they were handled poorly. It can't be every player that doesn't perform on arrival at Palace because they can't be bothered. It's like the England team - there aren't huge differences between the squad that missed Euro 2008 and the one that breezed to South Africa - the same players, very difference performance. Why could that be?

Il Padrino
29-09-2009, 11:15 AM
N'Diaye must be the most mis-spelled name on these boards People tend to get the N and the E in the right place, and guess the rest. ;)
.

I know. Was on the train so couldnt google - but knew the beginning and end were right :D

Owngoal
29-09-2009, 01:08 PM
Really would like to see Carle succeed for us but should have done something by now to indicate he could do a job week in and week out - unless something changes, if we can get money for him we should take it.

On the subject of Palace greats who managed Kember is not thought of in the same way as Peter Taylor, both ultimately flopped but Taylor the manager was boring beyond belief compared to Taylor the player who would get into almost any Palace team there has been. Dowie was not great as a player but did well for a while, then his negativity has left most of us with a downer on him.

AJ
29-09-2009, 01:29 PM
[QUOTE=David][QUOTE=Il Padrino]

In the unlikely event of Warnock making that his game plan A (which is a shame, I think I might enjoy seeing us play that way) I would much rather see Victor Moses playing behind those 2.
I do wonder if aftr saturday we may see us playing an enterprising 4-5-1 like we did in effect on saturday. Which may mean that there is more of an opportunity for Carle, & maybe with a little less pressure on him we can see him get to express himself & show the talent he clearly has,maybe. I wouldn't mind seeing us try that formation with Victor given license to join the attack at will, would be exciting, & we may end up seeing Sean & Victor regularly playing through the middle.

I have to wonder if NW (and many others) had forgotten the importance of a fast direct front man. Scannell played this role at WBA. A fast striker down the middle forces the opposition defence to defend a little deeper and have a second defender ready to cover, as a flick over the top and the forward is past the defenders and away leaving the defenders little time to respond(compared to a slower bigger striker, who for the most part will play in the same 10 foot circle) I wonder if it was this that allowed Moses to have a little more space as well.

PauLo
29-09-2009, 02:14 PM
N'Diaye must be the most mis-spelled name on these boards People tend to get the N and the E in the right place, and guess the rest. ;)

I dunno, the Hill/Hills confusion probably beats it :D

palace_burger
02-10-2009, 12:07 AM
I would be very sad to see him go, he has that bit of class that most palace players havent had in all the years i have supported them.

However if we got 30m for him, i would urge everyone to consider it :)

Celestial Empire
02-10-2009, 10:00 AM
I would be very sad to see him go, he has that bit of class that most palace players havent had in all the years i have supported them.

However if we got 30m for him, i would urge everyone to consider it :)

You could buy the entire 'A' League, with a couple of gold mines thrown in for that !;)

Big Guns
07-10-2009, 07:45 PM
according to Mick Jones blog it looks like he will be loaned out in the not to distant future

gold76
07-10-2009, 07:54 PM
Come January, instead of a loan, perhaps a transfer with a circa 400k+ fee would be better if he is not a regular?

DaveP
08-10-2009, 06:25 AM
Have to admit that im really disappointed that the club are looking to loan him out and more than likely look to sell him permanently come january.

To me i still believe he has so much to offer and there is no doubt about his talent and ability but this season just hasn't been given a chance. It's a long season and Nick could still be a vital part of our squad, especially if Danns, Ambrose, Derry, Or N'Diaye got injured at any stage.

Would be a mistake to let him go in my opinion but maybe it's the emergence and effect that Ertl has had when put in the team which has made them decide they can do without Carle.

steve hail
08-10-2009, 07:38 AM
If this happens due to a total absence of cash then fine.

It should not happen for any other reason.

kolinkins
08-10-2009, 08:52 AM
To me i still believe he has so much to offer and there is no doubt about his talent and ability but this season just hasn't been given a chance. It's a long season and Nick could still be a vital part of our squad, especially if Danns, Ambrose, Derry, Or N'Diaye got injured at any stage.



That's exactly the point, isnt it? There are 5 ahead of him, and he needs to play in WC year.

sydnsteve
08-10-2009, 09:02 AM
Shame, he has looked like he wants to play the ball about and get involved in his short appearances.

Gooders
08-10-2009, 09:10 AM
I still can't help thinking there's a player in there somewhere waiting to get out. We're never going to find out though with the odd 10 minutes from the bench.

Il Padrino
08-10-2009, 09:28 AM
CRYSTAL Palace boss Neil Warnock has revealed the club are looking to sell midfielder Nick Carle in the January transfer window.
The Australian international was a 1million signing from Bristol City last summer but has failed to start a single game in the current campaign, dropping behind Alassane N’Diaye in the pecking order.
Warnock has confirmed there have been loan approaches from South Korean side FC Seoul and a side in Qatar.
“Nick is on the market to sell permanently and we’d only look at loans at the end of January,” said the Palace boss.
“He knows he needs to be playing to get into Australia’s World Cup squad and has got to be getting games after Christmas.”
For the full story, don't miss tomorrow's South London Press.

kolinkins
08-10-2009, 09:49 AM
That's a shame because he clearly has some untapped talent.

Seems like NW isnt the first manager not to be able to get it out of him.

Makes sense to sell mind, if NW has others ahead of him in the queue, and he is a sellable asset whose sale could help the club in the short term.

DaveP
08-10-2009, 09:54 AM
Gutted to be honest.

As said before, Nick is a quality player who has immense skill when given the chance, sadly that has never happened at Palace, only in glimpses, i would imagine simply down to the fact that we don't play to his style of football.

Whatever happens to Nick i wish him all the best, he is a great guy, and will be a shame if and when he leaves.

Would still be nice to see him involved more between now and January to show Warnock he is a still a player worthy of having

Il Padrino
08-10-2009, 09:58 AM
Yep. Its a shame, because as has been said there is some real talent there. I would still like to see him given a go in a more free role where he can support the attack, like the role N'Diaye has been given.

Would have been nice to see a Palace player in a world cup :(

RednBlue
08-10-2009, 10:04 AM
N'Diaye must be the most mis-spelled name on these boards People tend to get the N and the E in the right place, and guess the rest. ;)


Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch sudty at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas thgouht slpeling was ipmorantt.
Jsut a thogut. ;)

Pennyfather
08-10-2009, 10:09 AM
What a huge disappointment! It's also a bad sign to me that our style of play is never going to improve under Mr Warnock. This really is going to be a long hard season & it'll be a struggle to get excited about watching us from here on.

kolinkins
08-10-2009, 10:16 AM
Good footballers are no guarantee of good football. We've played better this season with Derry and Danns (with one of Ertl and N'Diaye) than we did at times last season with Watson and Carle, or before that with Kennedy (technically good if lazy and moody) and Watson.

Still, 3 wins from 4 without him - I guess we wont miss him as much as we fear

Il Padrino
08-10-2009, 10:18 AM
What a huge disappointment! It's also a bad sign to me that our style of play is never going to improve under Mr Warnock. This really is going to be a long hard season & it'll be a struggle to get excited about watching us from here on.

:S: :S:

Pennyfather
08-10-2009, 10:23 AM
Good footballers are no guarantee of good football. We've played better this season with Derry and Danns (with one of Ertl and N'Diaye) than we did at times last season with Watson and Carle, or before that with Kennedy (technically good if lazy and moody) and Watson.

Still, 3 wins from 4 without him - I guess we wont miss him as much as we fear


When have we played good football this season in your opinion?

palacemaniac
08-10-2009, 10:25 AM
What a huge disappointment! It's also a bad sign to me that our style of play is never going to improve under Mr Warnock. This really is going to be a long hard season & it'll be a struggle to get excited about watching us from here on.

Yeah, I miss the good old days under Taylor :sob:
:rolleyes:

Il Padrino
08-10-2009, 10:28 AM
When have we played good football this season in your opinion?

Man City, West Brom are the immediate ones that spring to mind.

Can we please not turn this into one of your Taylor trolling sessions?

kolinkins
08-10-2009, 10:29 AM
When have we played good football this season in your opinion?

I didnt say good, I said better.

Though Man city comes to mind as us playing good football.

Pennyfather
08-10-2009, 10:44 AM
Man City, West Brom are the immediate ones that spring to mind.

Can we please not turn this into one of your Taylor trolling sessions?


Hang on, I've not even mentioned PT (except here) & have no intention of doing so as that's in the past. What I'm concerned about is the future.

Man City we played well for half hour & then were rightly outclassed. WBA we didn't play all that well but got lucky with the 3 points & hardly played great football. Moses played well but generally we couldn't keep possession for more than 4 passes.

The only game we have played good football was Ipswich away but that appears to have been a one off.

palacemaniac
08-10-2009, 10:57 AM
PT

Enough already!

GrayP41ace
08-10-2009, 11:04 AM
Duh!!

kolinkins
08-10-2009, 11:05 AM
It must have been so good you didn't even realise we played Ipswich at Selhurst ;)

Unless you mean last season (in the past ;) )?

But we played Ipswich away this season

GrayP41ace
08-10-2009, 11:06 AM
But we played Ipswich away this season

I just realised that, I was looking at our fixtures from a Palace v 'whoever' list. I then realised they were all at home :D

Terrace Bickle
08-10-2009, 11:07 AM
JAT. But perhaps the City fans who posted their surprise at us forking out 1M for Nick were right.

sydnsteve
08-10-2009, 11:17 AM
Or maybe he simply is not a NW player? I find it very hard to believe that he would not have relieved the tedium that was our (mostly bypassed) midfield on Sat. Derry was our most creative midfielder. Danns ran a lot but did nothing else, Ambrose scored but that apart I'd have been hard pressed to know he was on the pitch.
Carle's brief appearance brought attempts at taking players on at least. However, he is clearly off.

st albans
08-10-2009, 11:31 AM
hasn't done anything in his time here, even last season when played quite a lot

seems to go sideways a lot, and is afraid to shoot. you look at some youtube videos and a couple of years bach he looked quality. hasn't shown enough to warrant the money spent on him

as others have mentioned, there are better players ahead of him. would be surprised if he made the world cup sqaud, as i just don't think he's good enough

kolinkins
08-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Or maybe he simply is not a NW player?

I love it when people say this, especially about a player he signed. Do you not think he saw him play before signing him?

sydnsteve
08-10-2009, 01:07 PM
I love it when people say this, especially about a player he signed. Do you not think he saw him play before signing him?

Gotcha!

Crunchie
08-10-2009, 04:34 PM
I love it when people say this, especially about a player he signed. Do you not think he saw him play before signing him?

Yep, he fits into our direct style of play perfectly.

Gooders
08-10-2009, 06:15 PM
If our "creative" midfielders were being creative, we wouldn't be "direct".

Crunchie
08-10-2009, 06:50 PM
If our "creative" midfielders were being creative, we wouldn't be "direct".

I agree, but only Clyne, Fonte (and Hills when he plays left back) have the ability to move the ball out of defence.

Butterfield used too.

philsick
08-10-2009, 08:22 PM
We dont use the style of play,or have the players in the current usual starting 11 that suit carle,he might as well go and relieve our financial situation a bit.He looked pretty good in midfield with watson and oster last year.

Ian Hart
08-10-2009, 11:21 PM
Don't wish to get into a debate about the pros and cons of Warnock's style, or his level of success - for what it's worth I think he has done about as well as anyone could with meagre resources. However, it is a fact that the two new players he has brought to the club for money - Carle and Lee - have not turned out to be the greatest of successes, as I think he would acknowledge. My rationale for saying this is that he has tried to flog them both within a year of buying them.

I think they cost around 1.6m between them, which I suspect Neil would feel he could have used more successfully.

Farawayeagle
09-10-2009, 01:04 AM
Below is what Mick Jones wrote on Nicky Carle this week.

Do we really want to get rid of a player with this attitude.

I spoke to Nicky in pre season and he really wanted to play for us.

Quote Mick Jones:

We were also pleased to be able to give Nick Carle a good half-an-hour. The thing with Nick now is that he has World Cup ambitions and World Cup players need to be playing 90 minutes of football regularly, which he has not been doing.

I have said this about him before - Nick Carle is probably one of the best pros I have come across. He is not in the team and things are not going his way but he has never moped around. He has never complained or whined about it; okay he has asked for an explanation, which is rightfully so but he has never been a bother to anybody.

He is never disruptive when some people in that situation can be disruptive. He has done nothing other than be a perfect professional, and all credit to him.

But we are aware that he has international ambitions so we are looking at possibilities of loan situations where he is going to get 90 minutes of football.

However, while we want him to get more games, football being football you always have to take into account factors such as injuries or suspensions, the side could be on a bad run and then we need him back in the frame.

But loans are something that we have looked at because Nick, while he is the hardest trainer at the club, is in risk of losing that cutting edge in his game.

That can happen no matter who you are. You could be Nick Carle or David Beckham, if you are not playing regular first team football you will lose the cutting edge and when you lose you that all your sharpness goes and you become blunt yourself, so it is something we are very conscious of.

At the moment his move is a million miles away from a probability but there are possibilities.

sydnsteve
09-10-2009, 08:10 AM
Gooders, that is entirely the point. Our 'creative' midfielder, which is really only Ambrose as Danns is a hard runner but hardly creative, is mostly AWOL. Whereas each time carle has come on he has looked hungry for the ball and to get involved.
Hard choice, as Ambrose is our top scorer, but I'd like Carle to have a try myself

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 02:33 PM
Quote Mick Jones:
Nick, while he is the hardest trainer at the club, is in risk of losing that cutting edge in his game.


I swear someone said this earlier in the thread.

Sorry but I have to take issue with this. I've seen Carle train & he gives everything he has & imo looked like one of the best trainers at the club.

Regarding his fitness/weight you must be having a laugh! His legs are pure muscle which is why shorts look tight on him & I doubt if he has a pound of fat on his entire body!

The guy is head & shoulders above anyone else in the squad technically & mentally & the team should be built around him. Any manager who can't see that is sub standard.


Ah! There it is.

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 02:34 PM
So, PF, are Gary Johnson and NW sub standard managers? Is every manager who doesnt sign him now sub standard?

Perhaps he'll sign for Wycombe....oh wait....

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 02:39 PM
So, PF, are Gary Johnson and NW sub standard managers? Is every manager who doesnt sign him now sub standard?

Perhaps he'll sign for Wycombe....oh wait....

Not Gary Johnson really as he started Carle in almost every game.

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 02:43 PM
But he didnt build a team around him

NW used Carle in nearly every game last season. He hasnt this season, but with 3 wins from 4, there is no need to change a winning team.

I take it you think NW is sub standard. I'd like to know what you base that on.

Il Padrino
09-10-2009, 02:44 PM
Not Gary Johnson really as he started Carle in almost every game.

Where do you think NC's best position is?

I'm of the opinion he could really do some damage if he is given free reign to wander behind the attack like he did at Bristol.

I think he could come in for N'Diaye and roam around, but Warnock doest seem keen on that.

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Where do you think NC's best position is?

I'm of the opinion he could really do some damage if he is given free reign to wander behind the attack like he did at Bristol.

I think he could come in for N'Diaye and roam around, but Warnock doest seem keen on that.

I agree with this. If we could, I'd like to see us play:


Danns ---- N'Diaye --------- Derry ----- Ambrose

-------------------------Carle--------------------------

--------------------------John--------------------------


However, if we need to sell a player to keep going, I'd rather it be a player NW doesnt use regularly than a kid or first team regular.

GodstoneEagle
09-10-2009, 02:48 PM
Agree. Still wondering why klinx is being so abrasive and agressive when there's no need.

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 02:49 PM
Agree. Still wondering why klinx is being so abrasive and agressive when there's no need.

I'm not being aggressive.

I just do not like double standards.

And if PF thinks NW is sub standard, that is fine. But I would like to know why that is. And I would like to know how thinking NW is sub standard reconciles with rating PT.

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 02:52 PM
But he didnt build a team around him

NW used Carle in nearly every game last season. He hasnt this season, but with 3 wins from 4, there is no need to change a winning team.


Yes there is as those results are just papering over large cracks.


I take it you think NW is sub standard. I'd like to know what you base that on.


Based on the rubbish style of football he serves up week in week out.

Il Padrino
09-10-2009, 02:53 PM
I agree with this. If we could, I'd like to see us play:


Danns ---- N'Diaye --------- Derry ----- Ambrose

-------------------------Carle--------------------------

--------------------------John--------------------------


However, if we need to sell a player to keep going, I'd rather it be a player NW doesnt use regularly than a kid or first team regular.

Yep, that would work.

I was thinking

-----------------------Danns-----Derry-----Ambrose--------------

-------------------------------Carle---------------------------------

-----------Sears----------------------------------Moses-----------
---------------------------------John----------------------------------

Not completely sure about Ambrose as part of a midfield three. maybe swap with Sears and put Ertl in the middle. Hmmmm....

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 02:53 PM
Where do you think NC's best position is?

I'm of the opinion he could really do some damage if he is given free reign to wander behind the attack like he did at Bristol.

I think he could come in for N'Diaye and roam around, but Warnock doest seem keen on that.


I agree. NW won't play with a spare man as it's far too attack minded despite the fact that Carle's defensive game is pretty good.

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Yes there is as those results are just papering over large cracks.

Like the last 2 games of 06/07 you mean?

Based on the rubbish style of football he serves up week in week out.

This is why I take issue with you when you comment about NW. No matter what type of football the team plays, it has never been worse than the time under PT. That was the worst, most uninspiring team I can remember in my time as a Palace fan. It just smacks of real double standards.

If NW is so sub standard, why hasnt he just been sacked as a manager of a third tier team? Why isnt he a manager of a third tier team in the first place?

Stavros 69
09-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Danns - Derry - Carle - Ambrose
Moses - Sears

Perfect

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 02:55 PM
Yep, that would work.

I was thinking

-----------------------Danns-----Derry-----Ambrose--------------

-------------------------------Carle---------------------------------

-----------Sears----------------------------------Moses-----------
---------------------------------John----------------------------------

Not completely sure about Ambrose as part of a midfield three. maybe swap with Sears and put Ertl in the middle. Hmmmm....

You'd then only have a back 3, or no Jules? :D

Il Padrino
09-10-2009, 02:56 PM
I agree. NW won't play with a spare man as it's far too attack minded despite the fact that Carle's defensive game is pretty good.

And thats what baffles me about the whole Carle situation.

He clearly thought enough of Carle in that free role to change our formation for the league game against BC, saw him terrorise us in the play offs, buys him and then doesnt play him in his best role.

Absolution
09-10-2009, 02:57 PM
Not Gary Johnson really as he started Carle in almost every game.Whilst his son was injured.. then he played out of position.

Il Padrino
09-10-2009, 02:58 PM
You'd then only have a back 3, or no Jules? :D

D'OH.

*

Its been a long week, Leave me alone :D

*

*

pumaspalace
09-10-2009, 02:59 PM
Danns - Derry - Carle - Ambrose
Moses - Sears

Perfect
thats exactly what i would do!

Gooders
09-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Based on the rubbish style of football he serves up week in week out.

Good to have you posting again.

But - an ardent PT fan talking about our "rubbish style of football" is a bit rich, IMHO. :p

Justy C
09-10-2009, 03:12 PM
I'm of the opinion he could really do some damage if he is given free reign to wander behind the attack like he did at Bristol.

I think he could come in for N'Diaye and roam around, but Warnock doest seem keen on that.

Agree with all of that.

BennyPalaceFan
09-10-2009, 03:15 PM
I think Nick Carle is just the creative player we are badly needing in that midfield at the moment!! he can go out and attack on his own, create chances for the strikers, switch the play well, defend well AND take corners and free kicks just as good as Darren Ambrose (no disrespect there either).

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 05:06 PM
Like the last 2 games of 06/07 you mean?



This is why I take issue with you when you comment about NW. No matter what type of football the team plays, it has never been worse than the time under PT. That was the worst, most uninspiring team I can remember in my time as a Palace fan. It just smacks of real double standards.

If NW is so sub standard, why hasnt he just been sacked as a manager of a third tier team? Why isnt he a manager of a third tier team in the first place?


Why oh why can't you just drop the PT thing? I have for goodness sake!

I'm interested in the here & now not dwelling on the past & this thread is about Nicky Carle. Can we stick to that & relevant spring offs please?

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 05:08 PM
Good to have you posting again.

But - an ardent PT fan talking about our "rubbish style of football" is a bit rich, IMHO. :p


Thanks Gooders. Regardless of what people think of how we played under previous managers you must admit that this season has been dire for any good football or entertainment?

Pennyfather
09-10-2009, 05:09 PM
And thats what baffles me about the whole Carle situation.

He clearly thought enough of Carle in that free role to change our formation for the league game against BC, saw him terrorise us in the play offs, buys him and then doesnt play him in his best role.


Spot on. I don't get it either.

sydnsteve
09-10-2009, 05:35 PM
I also find it very odd. And the trouible is that the 4-1 win will keep NW as he is. Mind you, Mick Jones' blog was quite open that he thought the score line highly flattering.

Cardiff will be a very interesting game. NW has no option but to defend there i think.

Jason
09-10-2009, 07:21 PM
Why oh why can't you just drop the PT thing? I have for goodness sake!

I'm interested in the here & now not dwelling on the past & this thread is about Nicky Carle. Can we stick to that & relevant spring offs please?

To be fair PF, I think that you probably have more to do with the thread going off topic than anyone else (although you've posted a lot of interesting stuff, so please don't take that as a dig). While the football we've played this season (and much of last) has hardly been inspiring, I think it's fair to say that it's not really a logical position to criticize NW for the style of play, while defending PT, under whom I don't think it's an exaggeration to say we played the worst football (entertainment wise) we've seen since the days of Mullery. Given your defence of PT, it is (wrightly or wrongly) inevitable that people will respond in a certain way when you criticise Warnock based on style of play.

In terms of NC (as you say the thread is about him after all!), I see him as essentially a luxury we can't afford right now. While he is by CCC standards a seriously gifted player, I think he has a key problem in that his talent is of a type that it is difficult to apply consistently in the CCC. This is probably the root of the comments made by the Australia coach about Palace being a bad move for him, as well as the decision by Bristol City to sell him so soon after he arrived there. It has also been a factor in his limited impact for us. After all, it can hardly be said that he didn't get a good number of games last year.

Given the above, I think selling him if we get a half decent offer is in the best interests of all parties. The talents he could offer elsewhere mean he is probably wasted here (by here I mean the CCC not just Palace), and those talents are also not what we need right now. Given the cover we already have at Centre Mid, and our weak financial position, selling him on and using the fee + saved wages to help stabilise the club seems a good bet all round.

Gooders
09-10-2009, 07:46 PM
Thanks Gooders. Regardless of what people think of how we played under previous managers you must admit that this season has been dire for any good football or entertainment?

No, I honestly don't think it's been dire. I've seen the games against Plymouth, Torquay, Man City, Newcastle, Peterboro and Blackpool and on occasions we have played some good-ish football. Peterboro was about our worst performance out of that lot, I'd say.

I also have it on good authority that Warnock absolutely does not tell anyone to go out there and hoof it - they resort to it sometimes because they are not very good players and when they are under pressure it's the easy option - it really is as simple as that.

The one criticism I would offer is the obsession he seems to have for a "target-man". Employing one just gives those average defenders and midfielders an excuse to take that easy option, IMHO - and I don't think we get very effective results out of it either.

When Stern John comes back I hope that we will see an experiment without a big lump up front - there were promising signs on the football front in the Plymouth game until John got injured I reckon and with Moses, Scannell, Sears and Ambrose around there's plenty of opportunity for us to try something a bit different.

I won't hold my breath though - Mr W has rarely fielded a team without a target-man at any club he's managed has he?

Gooders
09-10-2009, 07:48 PM
I also find it very odd. And the trouible is that the 4-1 win will keep NW as he is. Mind you, Mick Jones' blog was quite open that he thought the score line highly flattering.

Cardiff will be a very interesting game. NW has no option but to defend there i think.

We will get nothing at Cardiff, and they will get at least one penalty.
Best we can hope for is no red cards.

Celestial Empire
09-10-2009, 11:42 PM
When we signed Carle, BC fans said that he doesn't score goals and is reluctant to shoot - exactly how he has performed for us.
But some football geniuses think we should now drop Ambrose for Carle.:eek:

kolinkins
09-10-2009, 11:46 PM
When we signed Carle, BC fans said that he doesn't score goals and is reluctant to shoot - exactly how he has performed for us.
But some football geniuses think we should now drop Ambrose for Carle.:eek:

Not just that, apparently, any manager who doesnt build his team around Carle is sub standard