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Rimmer10
09-12-2009, 11:40 AM
surley we can sell some fringe players like carle, john/lee etc... to keep us going and hold on to moses, clyne etc.. at least until the end of the season & see if we can reach the playoffs and maybe go up. then we can afford to keep them for longer , prices go up makes buisness sence

stinky
09-12-2009, 11:44 AM
To sell, we need people who would want to buy. Also, I doubt we'd get much for the combined sale of players like John, Carle etc. Whereas selling a Moses, or a Clyne would bring in more.

And it doesn't make business sense. It doesn't make sense to gamble on our future. If we don't get promoted and we still had our most sellable assets, we'd be in big big trouble

kettle
09-12-2009, 11:48 AM
not being harsh, but that is a very Rimmer comment.

Carle, Lee, John are not in demand. We would get low money, if any for them. We need to sell a big player or 2 to safeguard the very future of the club. As always it won't be dull supporting Palace.

Rimmer10
09-12-2009, 11:51 AM
I think we would have people to buy carle and john, obviously will not generate as much cash but maybe just enough till the end off season. If we dont go up then you sell the better younger players

stinky
09-12-2009, 11:54 AM
If we dont go up then you sell the better younger players

For a massively reduced price because we'll be in dire need of the cash by then and will be held to ransom because of it.

Whichever way you look at it, it won't get any prettier. We need to sell some players in January and look forward to seeing the likes of Pinney and Cadogan come through the ranks

Kirby
09-12-2009, 12:09 PM
Yeah why don't we just sell Matt Lawrence?

Rimmer10
09-12-2009, 12:13 PM
is he still alive??

PhyshtaMagishta
09-12-2009, 12:20 PM
but seriously though, if we're lucky and get maybe 3mil for moses (people already know we're desperate for money) is that actually really gonna help us? From what i've heard we're about 20-30mil in debt... 3mil (again, if we're extremely lucky) is barely gonna dent this debt? seems we're fecked either way, and is beginning to look like getting promoted, however unlikely, may actually be the most realistic way of getting out of this mess!?

red&blue_moomin
09-12-2009, 12:28 PM
but seriously though, if we're lucky and get maybe 3mil for moses (people already know we're desperate for money) is that actually really gonna help us? From what i've heard we're about 20-30mil in debt... 3mil (again, if we're extremely lucky) is barely gonna dent this debt? seems we're fecked either way, and is beginning to look like getting promoted, however unlikely, may actually be the most realistic way of getting out of this mess!?

Right now some money is better than no money is what it boils down to as we are potless.

prizesucker
09-12-2009, 12:30 PM
Carle is nailed on to leave for 3 reasons -
1) we still owe Bristol City money so his departure would go towards paying that off (esp if bristol city bought him back)
2) he isn't playing in the first XI and
3) he wants to play in the world cup in SA next summer

There is a possibility Sears could go back to west ham in January, John only signed a 1yr contract so any fee for him, i suspect would be minimal but every little helps. Lee is hardly a fringe player this season as its turned out but if a Barnsley or someone came in for him NW would have to consider it.

Bottom line is, everyone is for sale, the sales that would bring in the most money would be Speroni, Ambrose & Moses, then Scannell/Clyne. Those also happen to be players most fans do not want to leave.

glaziers fan
09-12-2009, 12:36 PM
If Scannell left I wouldn't be too upset.

I'd like to hold onto Speroni, Fonte, Clyne, N'Diaye, Ambrose and Moses at all costs though.

stinky
09-12-2009, 12:38 PM
If Scannell left I wouldn't be too upset.

You need to edit your sig then

Bobby Woodruff
09-12-2009, 12:44 PM
What also needs to be remembered is that every player sold in January is a player whose wages do not have to be paid for the rest of the season. Of course Moses, Clyne etc are not the highest paid members of the squad. In that respect the original poster is correct, they are the best players to get rid of but beggars can't be choosers...

Like it or not if the club is to survive the wage bill needs to be reduced to a level where it can be financed on 14K gates plus a bit of tv money. If a buyer doesn't come in and we avoid administration expect the squad to look very different next season.

andy m
09-12-2009, 06:33 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the last few matches aside, and whether for the right reasons or not, Moses and Clyne have had seriously little impact on our first team results this season. They may be the best things ever to come out of the Academy, Moses almost certainly is, but if we need to sell it is surely only a plus that our most saleable assets have hardly contributed to a side that is just two points of the play offs.

Duffle Coat
09-12-2009, 08:27 PM
Moses was by all accounts terrific last night but how many first team starts has he had this season ? How many winning appearances has he made ? How many goals has he scored ? If he gets a really high valuation, say 5m or more, I reckon Palace would be laughing. If the survival of the club hinges on his sale, so be it. Otherwise,t is as if we have the Mona Lisa in Vic's Chip shop and we're about to have a last night sell off of all the fryers. However, we intend to hold on to the picture of the pouty one for sentimental reasons.

David
09-12-2009, 08:49 PM
surley we can sell some fringe players like carle, john/lee etc... to keep us going and hold on to moses, clyne etc.. at least until the end of the season & see if we can reach the playoffs and maybe go up. then we can afford to keep them for longer , prices go up makes buisness sence

And, if we don't go up then what.

Also, how much do you think John and Carle are worth as Warnock clearly doesn't think they are good enough for Palace.

Shipp Ahoy!
09-12-2009, 08:53 PM
I think we need to get real here, a club that can't pay its playerd wages on time because its trying to find the money from somewhere to pay them has NO options and there is NO case of why don't we sell x, why don't we hold on to y.

We recieve an offer in January unless it is so feable even an administrator would think twice it gets accepted regardless of the player, and that includes free transfers for players on decent wages who don't command any decent transfer fee.

Bad times :(

Jason
09-12-2009, 08:56 PM
And, if we don't go up then what.

Also, how much do you think John and Carle are worth as Warnock clearly doesn't think they are good enough for Palace.

About 500k between them IF Keane wants John full time at Ipswich. I suspect Carle is probably still worth in the region of 300-400k despite his poor form with us, while given their League position, Ipswich will be persuaded to part withh 100-150k for John. If Ipswich don't want to keep John, we'll struggle to get anything for him elsewhere.

Also not insignificant is the fact that getting those two off the wage bill would probably bring about a saving in wages of close to 10K a week which is not insignificant, especially given the damage to our squad would be mnimaal.

To quote a well known supermarket . . . . . every little helps

Palace Kebab
09-12-2009, 09:12 PM
I hazard a guess John will go to Ipwich in exchange for writing off what we still owe them for the purchase of Lee.

PhyshtaMagishta
09-12-2009, 11:24 PM
I think we need to get real here, a club that can't pay its playerd wages on time because its trying to find the money from somewhere to pay them has NO options and there is NO case of why don't we sell x, why don't we hold on to y.

We recieve an offer in January unless it is so feable even an administrator would think twice it gets accepted regardless of the player, and that includes free transfers for players on decent wages who don't command any decent transfer fee.

Bad times :(

I know that this probably all makes sense, it just seems so hopeless selling off people like moses, for what - 2 or 3 mil tops - just to face exactly the same situation when that cash has gone in a few months time. I'll admite i'm pretty naive about all this financial stuff, but is there any hope that the "cash flow" problem is exactly that. I was thinking about it and I'm pretty sure we actually only had 4 home games throughout the whole of October and November, but have 3 in December alone... is this likely to ease the severity of the situation even enough that we're not having to worry about paying people on time next month?

I know i'm clutching at straws but at the moment I don't see anyway out of it, even if we managed to sell moses, clyne, scannell, ambrose, fonte, and matt lawrence all for half decent fees. I can't see any way out of this other than promotion sadly. Booo :sob:

sydnsteve
10-12-2009, 11:15 AM
I hazard a guess John will go to Ipwich in exchange for writing off what we still owe them for the purchase of Lee.

I thought we'd paid Ipswich for Lee?

thehalifaxman
10-12-2009, 02:30 PM
Who is on the high wages then? Obviously they need to be off. Even if we don't get a fee for them. If we haven't paid for Lee or Carle maybe they need to go and I'm sure they're well paid. Harsh on both of them especially Lee as he's worked so hard this year but desperate times. If someone is willing to take on his wages and the remainder of the fee for him we'll have to part.

Stellavista
10-12-2009, 04:51 PM
We could sell everyone in the squad, at optimum value, and still not make a decisive impact on the club's debts.
There is no point at all in anyone hoping that we might sell a few spare parts and keep the bulk of the squad intact.
It's f*cked.

PhyshtaMagishta
10-12-2009, 05:51 PM
We could sell everyone in the squad, at optimum value, and still not make a decisive impact on the club's debts.
There is no point at all in anyone hoping that we might sell a few spare parts and keep the bulk of the squad intact.
It's f*cked.

exactly, which is why I reckon we should just gamble, if its at all possible, by hanging on to everyone we can for the remainder of this season. Yeah it might end in the total destruction of our club if we don't get promoted, but then it looks like that that's only a matter of time anyway. Might as well go down in a blaze of glory.

Woodside_CP
10-12-2009, 06:06 PM
I know that this probably all makes sense, it just seems so hopeless selling off people like moses, for what - 2 or 3 mil tops - just to face exactly the same situation when that cash has gone in a few months time. I'll admite i'm pretty naive about all this financial stuff, but is there any hope that the "cash flow" problem is exactly that. I was thinking about it and I'm pretty sure we actually only had 4 home games throughout the whole of October and November, but have 3 in December alone... is this likely to ease the severity of the situation even enough that we're not having to worry about paying people on time next month?
i don't understand the complexities of administration, but in the past it has seemed that clubs simply go into admin, get a 10 point deduction and then get reborn under a slightly different company name with all the debt of the old company cancelled. If that is the case i'd take admin now and then come out of it with a new buyer next season, with all our players still here and (hopefully) still be in the championship after getting enough points to swallow up the points deduction.

Halfwayline
10-12-2009, 06:50 PM
If we do not get a buyer by July 1st we need to cut the wage bill to a break even level.

Expect Speroni, Clyne, Hill, Ambrose, John, Carle, Moses, Smith, Flahaven,and Lawrence to go. That should save 40k a week or 2m a year in wages and bring in 7m or so.

That would leave Derry, Fonte, Dannes, Scannell, Hills, Andrew, Lee, Butts, Djilali, Davies, Ertl and N'Diaye. 4 kids, a new goalie and 5 loan players to fight off relegaton.

Jason
10-12-2009, 08:52 PM
If we do not get a buyer by July 1st we need to cut the wage bill to a break even level.

Expect Speroni, Clyne, Hill, Ambrose, John, Carle, Moses, Smith, Flahaven,and Lawrence to go. That should save 40k a week or 2m a year in wages and bring in 7m or so.

That would leave Derry, Fonte, Dannes, Scannell, Hills, Andrew, Lee, Butts, Djilali, Davies, Ertl and N'Diaye. 4 kids, a new goalie and 5 loan players to fight off relegaton.

If we're working on that basis, you can add Derry, Danns, and Butts to that list for certain, with Fonte, Lee, and McCarthy being possibles to go. Flahaven may actually end up staying as 1st choice in that scenario, as we might not be able to afford anyone better. Likewise Smith

The 1st choice line up in that scenario isn't actually as bad as you might think, and would go something like this.


Scannell Andrew

Smith Ertl N'Diaye Dijali

Hills Davies ???? ????? / Abnett?

Flahaven

A couple of shrewd loan / free transfers for the defensive positions (I've taken the "worst case" scenario of all the possibles leaving for the line up), and you've got a first choice line up more than capable of staying up imho.

The problem of course, is the complete lack of squad depth. You're suddenly looking at Charlie Mann as your back up keeper, and expecting the like of Codagon (sp?), Pinney and Comley to be the first choice back up players. As such, including the gaps in teh starting 11, you probably need half a dozen new faces.

These would be a mixture of loans, young players who we've probably never heard of who've been released (rather than sold) by Prem clubs, and Bosmans from lower Leagues who would essentially accept high end League 1 wages to play in the Championship . . . . .either that or some of the out of contract players would need to be willing to take a drastic pay cut.

With the right management, the above would probably have enough in the tank to stay up, although it wouldn't be pretty . . . . .but at least we'd have a club!!

Duffle Coat
10-12-2009, 09:25 PM
If we're working on that basis, you can add Derry, Danns, and Butts to that list for certain, with Fonte, Lee, and McCarthy being possibles to go. Flahaven may actually end up staying as 1st choice in that scenario, as we might not be able to afford anyone better. Likewise Smith

The 1st choice line up in that scenario isn't actually as bad as you might think, and would go something like this.


Scannell Andrew

Smith Ertl N'Diaye Dijali

Hills Davies ???? ????? / Abnett?

Flahaven

A couple of shrewd loan / free transfers for the defensive positions (I've taken the "worst case" scenario of all the possibles leaving for the line up), and you've got a first choice line up more than capable of staying up imho.

The problem of course, is the complete lack of squad depth. You're suddenly looking at Charlie Mann as your back up keeper, and expecting the like of Codagon (sp?), Pinney and Comley to be the first choice back up players. As such, including the gaps in teh starting 11, you probably need half a dozen new faces.

These would be a mixture of loans, young players who we've probably never heard of who've been released (rather than sold) by Prem clubs, and Bosmans from lower Leagues who would essentially accept high end League 1 wages to play in the Championship . . . . .either that or some of the out of contract players would need to be willing to take a drastic pay cut.

With the right management, the above would probably have enough in the tank to stay up, although it wouldn't be pretty . . . . .but at least we'd have a club!!
You are hereby appointed as Merlin in Chief. I think this sounds marvellous. Given that we are looking at nowhere and somewhere, I go with you.

Rimmer10
10-12-2009, 10:58 PM
exactly, which is why I reckon we should just gamble, if its at all possible, by hanging on to everyone we can for the remainder of this season. Yeah it might end in the total destruction of our club if we don't get promoted, but then it looks like that that's only a matter of time anyway. Might as well go down in a blaze of glory.


Have to agree! i dont want to see the club go under, but like others have said if we raise a few million by selling are best players that money will not make a dent in the debt. if we hold on till the end of the season just maybe we can do it and get promoted. the club is saved, moses turns into a 10 million pound player etc.. etc... if we dont go up we stay in the same boat we are in now. which is ****ed!!!

red&blue_moomin
11-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Closest analogy I can think of here is Lehman Brothers Bank. Gambled went bust.....helped destabilise the world economy (not that Palace going belly up woud do that).....RL isn't the films where everything goes right. You'd rather risk the security of the club for the sake of a couple of players? You can only live to fight another day if your still alive.

PhyshtaMagishta
11-12-2009, 05:52 PM
Closest analogy I can think of here is Lehman Brothers Bank. Gambled went bust.....helped destabilise the world economy (not that Palace going belly up woud do that).....RL isn't the films where everything goes right. You'd rather risk the security of the club for the sake of a couple of players? You can only live to fight another day if your still alive.

Normally I'd totally agree with you, sell whoever we can, save the club. But it seems that we can sell all our players and we are still up shit creek. We are not going to be secure by selling moses, ambrose whoever. We are just going to be in the same situation in a few months time, only this time we'll have no one left to sell. And no hope of promotion, and earning that extra money to keep us afloat.
This is a rubbish analogy but its like somebody saying i'm going to shoot you unless you play russian roulette with this gun which has 5 bullets in it. You might as well play roulette and possibly shoot yrself rather than do nothing and die anyway. I told you rubbish analogy.

Or am I being too pessimistic? Do people genuinely think we have any chance of surviving unless we go up this year? If that was guaranteed then I'm all in favour of selling the lot, but it doesn't sound likely.

gold76
11-12-2009, 06:00 PM
Carle is the only fringe player I think we could get a reasonable fee for.
Comley, who the management team have been talking about recently, could take his place on the bench.

Smith will probably be let go in January as Cadogan & Djalili will be back from loans.

Louis
11-12-2009, 06:37 PM
Given the nature of our problems, it surprises me that we haven't sold more players (have we sold any?). Even if we only got small fees, we would reduce outgoings. We have got quite a few out on loan though, which helps.

AJ
11-12-2009, 06:59 PM
What also needs to be remembered is that every player sold in January is a player whose wages do not have to be paid for the rest of the season.


I don't know if the problem at Palace(as in today) is that there is not enough cash flow to pay the wages or if loans are being called in etc. If it is the wages, then selling off or releasing the older and higher paid players and reducing the monthly wage bill would work.
I assume that NW is looking to sell the least amount of players for the highest amount of money, so, not disrupting the squad too much.
If you look at the starting 11 against Reading, I would hazard a guess that only Moses, Clyne, Ertl and possibly Fonte of those players are earning less than 4k a week.

Jason
11-12-2009, 07:35 PM
Normally I'd totally agree with you, sell whoever we can, save the club. But it seems that we can sell all our players and we are still up shit creek. We are not going to be secure by selling moses, ambrose whoever. We are just going to be in the same situation in a few months time, only this time we'll have no one left to sell. And no hope of promotion, and earning that extra money to keep us afloat.
This is a rubbish analogy but its like somebody saying i'm going to shoot you unless you play russian roulette with this gun which has 5 bullets in it. You might as well play roulette and possibly shoot yrself rather than do nothing and die anyway. I told you rubbish analogy.

Or am I being too pessimistic? Do people genuinely think we have any chance of surviving unless we go up this year? If that was guaranteed then I'm all in favour of selling the lot, but it doesn't sound likely.

I think if we can get the right players out, then we can at best trade our way out of this, and at worst at least stop the situation deteriorating still further.

Using the example of how the squad could be carved up that I posted earlier, at an educated guess, you'd probably bring in somewhere in the region of eight to ten million, while at the same time saving in wages in the region of 3m per year. With the debt (excluding what is owed to SJ directly, which is a different matter entirely), being seemingly in the region of 20-25m, this strategy would reduce the debt significantly, while reducing costs as well. As well as the three million wage saving, you also have the fact that at the rates we're probably paying, the removal of the burden of servicing 8-10m of debt probably saves close to another 1m a year. Thjis means that the cost of reducing the club is reduced by some 4m pa overall.

In addition to all of the above, this strategy also involves young players from the academy getting big opportuinities. This in turn provides possible future sales (the line up in my previous post featured four or five academy graduates in the "1st 11", with others on the bench), which reduces the deficit further and creates a virtuous circle where good young players want to come to Palace as they will get a chance, meaning we can sell more of them ito secure the club in the future.

This route has two key advantages. Firstly, making the club less of a financial basket case makes us less unntractive to potential buyers. If that doesn't work, the second advantage is that it provides us with a "plan B" which enables us to trade out of this position over a number of years.

Plan B is certainly not an ideal situation. It would take several years to get out of the mire (think early Coppell years). What's more, it requires us to stay in the Championship for it to work, and on the resources that would be available, this would not be easy. Relegation would be a real risk, and would throw us right back to square one if it materialised.

For all that though, this "slash and burn" approach, is propbably the best shot we have of saving the club (either from outright extinction or a Luton style freefall). The problem is, for it to work, it has to be done NOW. We probably should have done something on these lines as soon as we failed to go straight back up to the Premiership. At that stage, the medicine would have been much less drastic than that required now. We're now at the point where we have to cut right to (and possibly into . . ouch!) the bone for this type of approach to work. Leave it another six Months, and the option of trading out of trouble wont be there at all.

PhyshtaMagishta
11-12-2009, 07:57 PM
I think if we can get the right players out, then we can at best trade our way out of this, and at worst at least stop the situation deteriorating still further.

Using the example of how the squad could be carved up that I posted earlier, at an educated guess, you'd probably bring in somewhere in the region of eight to ten million, while at the same time saving in wages in the region of 3m per year. With the debt (excluding what is owed to SJ directly, which is a different matter entirely), being seemingly in the region of 20-25m, this strategy would reduce the debt significantly, while reducing costs as well. As well as the three million wage saving, you also have the fact that at the rates we're probably paying, the removal of the burden of servicing 8-10m of debt probably saves close to another 1m a year. Thjis means that the cost of reducing the club is reduced by some 4m pa overall.

In addition to all of the above, this strategy also involves young players from the academy getting big opportuinities. This in turn provides possible future sales (the line up in my previous post featured four or five academy graduates in the "1st 11", with others on the bench), which reduces the deficit further and creates a virtuous circle where good young players want to come to Palace as they will get a chance, meaning we can sell more of them ito secure the club in the future.

This route has two key advantages. Firstly, making the club less of a financial basket case makes us less unntractive to potential buyers. If that doesn't work, the second advantage is that it provides us with a "plan B" which enables us to trade out of this position over a number of years.

Plan B is certainly not an ideal situation. It would take several years to get out of the mire (think early Coppell years). What's more, it requires us to stay in the Championship for it to work, and on the resources that would be available, this would not be easy. Relegation would be a real risk, and would throw us right back to square one if it materialised.

For all that though, this "slash and burn" approach, is propbably the best shot we have of saving the club (either from outright extinction or a Luton style freefall). The problem is, for it to work, it has to be done NOW. We probably should have done something on these lines as soon as we failed to go straight back up to the Premiership. At that stage, the medicine would have been much less drastic than that required now. We're now at the point where we have to cut right to (and possibly into . . ouch!) the bone for this type of approach to work. Leave it another six Months, and the option of trading out of trouble wont be there at all.

interesting. although I have to say I really don't share your optimism about the chances of us staying up with the team we would have left.

Having said that though, if this were all to happen in january, it would hopefully give them long enough to gel together while the headstart on avoiding relegation this season might be enough... and then who knows for next season.

I love the idea of having a team full of locally produced youngsters though, even if it is in a league lower, but then i guess if we are a league lower then we're back at square one again financially. hmmmm.

Oh well, never a dull moment. Bring it on!

Jason
11-12-2009, 08:11 PM
interesting. although I have to say I really don't share your optimism about the chances of us staying up with the team we would have left.

Having said that though, if this were all to happen in january, it would hopefully give them long enough to gel together while the headstart on avoiding relegation this season might be enough... and then who knows for next season.

I love the idea of having a team full of locally produced youngsters though, even if it is in a league lower, but then i guess if we are a league lower then we're back at square one again financially. hmmmm.

Oh well, never a dull moment. Bring it on!

You may be right on the field, it certainly will be tough. I think though that you're right that the key is in the fact that most of this would happen in Jan. If we can be 12-15 points clear of the drop zone at the beginning of Jan, we should be OK for this year. Next season, the youngsters will have had a crucial half season of experience under their belts, and a couple of shrewd freebies gives us a good chance of being OK after that.

It will be tough, but like you I can't help finding the whole idea of a team of youngsters and rejects giving their all for the club strangely appealing. . . . . . .certainly gotta be better than wtaching the club piss money up the wall on the likes of Paul Ifill and Shefki Kuqi!!!!!

cockles
11-12-2009, 09:22 PM
It will be tough, but like you I can't help finding the whole idea of a team of youngsters and rejects giving their all for the club strangely appealing. . . . . . .certainly gotta be better than wtaching the club piss money up the wall on the likes of Paul Ifill and Shefki Kuqi!!!!!

Tend to agree. Might actually be a great thing for the future of Palace in a round-about way. Any decent kids now trying to decide who's academy to join are now seeing Victor succeed (while Bostock stagnates) and as you say, loads of others from the academy likely to play 1st team football in the next year.

The Palace academy should be now the most attractive in London, and who know what this may yield for the 2020's decade;)

CPFC_DAVE77
12-12-2009, 02:10 PM
Haven't read the whole thread, but Lee is not a fringe player. He is far from a fringe player.

Adlerhorst
12-12-2009, 02:12 PM
The Palace academy should be now the most attractive in London, and who know what this may yield for the 2020's decade;)That's the spirit!