PDA

View Full Version : Hooligans !


Mat ov CPFC
12-05-2002, 02:38 PM
I see that the BBC have a major 'investigation' into modern Football hooliganism on tonight and its set the old cogs whirring as we have recently had a 'history' of hooliganism on TV.

Are these programes made with a genuine agenda of exploring and trying to come up with the solution to this problem or are they just voyeurism ( lets be honest, as much as we might all decry football violence we will all watch it on TV, just like we stare at road accidents ) with only the viewing figures in mind. After all who does not know that modern hooligans use mobile phones, wear baseball caps and have an obsession with crass looking clothing that makes them look like a bunch of anorexic American Tourists ?

PeterH
12-05-2002, 04:07 PM
What you mean they all dress like Rory. :eek:

Yeah the media like to stir it up. They really hope theres trouble in Japan and Korea. Theres lots of football programmes on TV, three or four documenteries a week which is excellent. The Argie one last week was tops.

I love a bandwagon. Shows a great deal of imagination.

braker
12-05-2002, 04:30 PM
is it just me, or is there more hooliganism, ie millwal espeacially sp? goin on, since the influx of tv programmes examing the concept?

selhurst
12-05-2002, 04:34 PM
Interesting point. Are the media just reporting on the current trend of hooliganism, or are they responsible for creating the trend in the first place?

Mat ov CPFC
12-05-2002, 04:52 PM
Did it ever go away ? Sure it changed its nature but there was always, and probably always will be, hooliganism attached to football. But I am sure that the Media coverage does not in anyway make the problem any less and can only, even if the intention is the opposite, 'glamourize' it and encourage those inclined to join in.

And lets be honest, who amongst us have never wished to inflict physical harm on the supporter of another club, even if it was for a passing moment ? That will never go away and the partizan attachment that people have to their football club is one of the reasons why Football, despite its best efforts to treat its paying customers like dirt, has retained its postion as a global sport.

jone-zee
12-05-2002, 05:05 PM
Im convinced that Guardianistas have a secret craving to be members of a 'Footy Crew'. ;)

holeesheet
12-05-2002, 07:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mat ov CPFC
[B]

And lets be honest, who amongst us have never wished to inflict physical harm on the supporter of another club,

(sic) brighton,

TAK
13-05-2002, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Mat ov CPFC
Did it ever go away ? Sure it changed its nature but there was always, and probably always will be, hooliganism attached to football. But I am sure that the Media coverage does not in anyway make the problem any less and can only, even if the intention is the opposite, 'glamourize' it and encourage those inclined to join in.


True, however if was reported responsibly the publicity could help, part of the reason many of us wanted Millwall to be promoted. That way the money boys in the Prem would have to deal with it and not brush it under the carpet as they have done for the last 10 years.

jone-zee
13-05-2002, 01:52 AM
Excellent comments TAK trouble is they are the media darlings:confused:

lightweight
13-05-2002, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Mat ov CPFC
But I am sure that the Media coverage does not in anyway make the problem any less and can only, even if the intention is the opposite, 'glamourize' it and encourage those inclined to join in.

And lets be honest, who amongst us have never wished to inflict physical harm on the supporter of another club, even if it was for a passing moment ?

I do think the media jump on anything they can make a programme out of. Having seen first hand in Marseille in France 98 camermen looking for English fans causing trouble, and ignoring any French or Tunisians causing trouble. And on the programme, the England games in Munich, Amsterdam, and the game against Greece are all games I went to and saw virtually no trouble, albeit often by avoiding central venues. Having said that, the domestic club violence shown was predominantly Millwall and some Wolves, with behaviour that seemed more true to life. From our point of view the most violence we have seen first hand or heard about from friends is against Wolves or Millwall, who I've seen throwing signs at horses, and other similar behaviour,but when you think this kind of thing happens week in week out it, it makes you ashamed to say you're a football suppoter to be at all associated with it. Whist many people have thought, as Mat says, for a passing moment about inflicting violence, it is just that, a passing thought. Actually planning to cause trouble and go looking for a fight rather than watching the games is a different story entirely.

Malakite
13-05-2002, 02:07 AM
Did anyone just see the documentary on BBC on this?..SICKENING, made me feel ill, especially seeing those thugs at Millwall :( They should all be banned from away games, but lets face it, it wont happen will it?!

congress
13-05-2002, 02:10 AM
Having just watched the programme how can you accuse the media of trying to hype it up.
It is going on around the country and our friendly rivals in South London are one of the main culprits.

I posted on the other thread about never going to watch England abroad, where Neil the Eagle replied " That is so sad."
I watched a few of these documentaries and it is always going on abroad and dont give us all the s*** about Newpapers paying people to start the trouble either.
Look at the England Greece game in Manchester.Then you had the ex Chelsea hooligan saying how sad it was that families are going to football.
What a tosser.

England will never get rid of it.

Adrian
13-05-2002, 02:15 AM
Originally posted by Mat ov CPFC
And lets be honest, who amongst us have never wished to inflict physical harm on the supporter of another club, even if it was for a passing moment?
Me, Mat ov. And thousands upon thousands of other ordinary supporters.

[One exception to that: self-defence.]

Riccardo
13-05-2002, 02:20 AM
What a bunch of losers those thugs are. Let them fight each other and eventually they'll die out...leaving a trail of burberry and stone island clothing for the homeless :o

lightweight
13-05-2002, 02:21 AM
Oh and it was interesting to see that the area I have sat in at Millwall with my Dad in the wheelchair enclosure, and had to cover up colours, and keep my mouth shut, is the area where the Millwall hooligans sit. Good decision Millwall. No wonder the expereince is so horrible.

congress
13-05-2002, 02:23 AM
I bet no official at the Football League has even set a foot in South London to see the trouble at first hand down at Millwall.Nice crowd down there, kick a football fan when he is outnumbered by 100-1,leg it when a woman comes out and mouths off at them, then decide to set light to peoples cars just because they have a sticker in them.
I bet the mother of the baby on the bus was glad she got a shower of glass over her.

I dont like going down to their level ut put them one to one and most of them would run like the so called hard Wolves fan who pretends he is a baggie and then smacks the bloke on the back of the head and then legs it.

What about the mouthy female one abroad with England.Lighweight? ;)

ozeagle
13-05-2002, 02:30 AM
pack of ******* turds........

Mat ov CPFC
13-05-2002, 02:35 AM
Sorry but I thought it was typical BBC hand wringing nonsense. Shock, horror, at England away games 200-300 tossers gather and chuck bottles at the local Police. And a few hundred Millwall fans are violent morons. And Wolves can be quite nasty as well.

Oh, and they like to wear silly looking baseball caps. Wow. I never knew that. :rolleyes:

The programe revealed nothing new and seemed to me to be an unjustifiable expenditure of the licence-fee payers money. Thugs are an unfortunate price that we pay for the game we love. It only survives due to its almost unique form of passion that it generates and a nasty side effect of that is what we saw tonight. Also some of these ex-hooligans must make a pretty nice side income from their 'expert' opinion which is always the same old bollocks about how they only ever hurt there own. Try telling that to the poor Portsmouth supporter kicked to the ground by those Millwall w@nkers. Thats the myth that needs nailing that some how there is an 'honour' to it, a code by which they all go by as though they have some sort of morality. Why not show that aspect a lot more ?

Benny B Block
13-05-2002, 02:37 AM
Here's my theory, if you were to lock an even numbered bunch of opposing hooligans on a space the size of a football pitch to commit as much violence on each other they want, there would be hardly any fights. A large number of them are kids trying to be men, followers and petty trouble makers who probably prefer the police interference as an excuse not to get their heads kicked in, but to taunt, abuse and generally look hard in front of their mates.

Scum the lot of them

selhurst
13-05-2002, 02:41 AM
I thought tonight's documentary was disturbing, but was also an unbalanced portrayal of how bad things really are. Let's face it, if you go looking for trouble you will always find it. If you do your best to avoid it, then you probably will.

As lightweight says, the media were looking for a story at the World Cup in France '98. I was in Marseille, and the atmosphere was tense, but it was the Tunisians who started the trouble on the beach (they threw a bottle at the large video screen when Shearer scored), and attacked a guy who was in our party. He was hospitalised, but the tabloids still focused on the 'English yobs'.

N
13-05-2002, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by congress
I bet no official at the Football League has even set a foot in South London to see the trouble at first hand down at Millwall.Nice crowd down there, kick a football fan when he is outnumbered by 100-1,leg it when a woman comes out and mouths off at them, then decide to set light to peoples cars just because they have a sticker in them.
I bet the mother of the baby on the bus was glad she got a shower of glass over her.

I dont like going down to their level ut put them one to one and most of them would run like the so called hard Wolves fan who pretends he is a baggie and then smacks the bloke on the back of the head and then legs it.

What about the mouthy female one abroad with England.Lighweight? ;)
Good post. All those Millwall fans on one pompy fan that made me very:grrr:

Mat ov CPFC
13-05-2002, 02:49 AM
Originally posted by selhurst
I thought tonight's documentary was disturbing, but was also an unbalanced portrayal of how bad things really are. Let's face it, if you go looking for trouble you will always find it. If you do your best to avoid it, then you probably will.




Excatly. From people on this BBS who travel round the world with England I know that on several occassion they have not known about the supposed 'riots' until they have come back to England. It never even registered in the local media. During Euro2000 our media made much of the chairthrowing in one of the squares, prior to the Germany game yet the local newspaper, the following day carred a headline asking 'What trouble '. At England games, or any big event such as the recent May day protests, the Media spend so much money on sending TV crews that they HAVE to get some trouble on camera to justify the expenditure in the first place.

RDSdaEAGLE
13-05-2002, 03:06 AM
I'm sure some of us fans who travelled to Wolves away encountered one of the hooligans featured on the TV...think the guys name was Lenny, who was part of the Wolves Subway Firm.

I was totally terrified when the Pompey fan got beaten up/knocked out by all of those Milwall scum-bags...wouldn't it just have made sense to arrest all of those scum, rather than let them wait there for Pompey fans?

Stavros 69
13-05-2002, 03:21 AM
All i can say is that it just pisses me off. It was an eye opener but no one is willing to cough up the money to solve the problem. All the bigger ricker teams need the money to do things like get in the Champions league, buy big name players etc.. Because of this lack of funds this problem will go on untill the ''Hooligan'' generation dies out. But we all know this wont happern. They might as well start younger to dissolve the problem as it is clear their is no short term solution. U can clearly see that cases are down compared to the 70's and 80's which is a good thing. As long as the media start reporting on this and nameing and shameing people which leads to future arrests i see the problem decreasing.

Neil the Eagle
13-05-2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by congress

I posted on the other thread about never going to watch England abroad, where Neil the Eagle replied " That is so sad."


Just to clarify congress, I didn't mean that as an insult. I genuinely think that it is sad that you are so put off from travelling abroad to watch England, because of what you've seen on TV and read in the papers.

I only caught the last few minutes of the programme, but I'm glad that someone has at last exposed what happens on the "Ilderton rat run" between the ground and Bermondsey South station.

This has been a flashpoint for years, I remember almost getting a whack there in 1996. Its so depressing that the Police haven't figured out an effective way to deal with this by now.

Ian of Chatham
13-05-2002, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by Mat ov CPFC
Are these programes made with a genuine agenda of exploring and trying to come up with the solution to this problem or are they just voyeurism ( lets be honest, as much as we might all decry football violence we will all watch it on TV, just like we stare at road accidents ) with only the viewing figures in mind. After all who does not know that modern hooligans use mobile phones, wear baseball caps and have an obsession with crass looking clothing that makes them look like a bunch of anorexic American Tourists ?
No not voyeurism Matov but we all watched it for information. Despite the fact the we may all be aware of the problem you can never have enough information about something affects your personal safety. Before watching the programme I believed the problem was serious enough but after watching that programme any last chances that I will show my face at a Palace away game at the New Den have vanished completely. The same will go for Stoke's Brittannia Stadium too and apparently we'll be seeing more about Stoke's thugs in next week's programme.

congress
13-05-2002, 11:36 AM
Neil, I know you didnt mean it an an insult.
I know thousands go abroad following England successfully but I wouldnt want the hassle just in case someone targets me because I am English.The woman there trying to start the trouble was a real eye opener though.

The small pocket in the bottom section of the Millwall stand near the away fans were a total joke when Millwall turn around and say that they are trying hard to sort out the situation.
Millwall will not come down hard enough on these people as it is lost income for them.
The League have all the evidence they need via police information of the trouble that goes on down the Den.The Police Officer in charge quoted last night that they have experienced trouble on about four occasions within the first couple of months of the season just gone.

Ruskin Old Boy
13-05-2002, 12:17 PM
The Football League have been unwilling to act for many years. Ironic that in my younger days we went regularly to watch Palace play at the Old Den, observed the usual niceties of not wearing colours and walking away from the ground eyes to the front (not looking happy if Palace had won ;) ) and up to New Cross Gate Station. There was often aggro but nothing on the scale of some of the trouble at the New Den; as Neil says no-one has been able to deal with the problem of getting to and from South Bermondsey Station.

Have to agree with some of the comments on hooliganism abroad. While not glossing over the actions of some English fans abroad there is a history of violence amongst German, Dutch, Italian, etc etc fans. What seems to isolate the English in general is their inability to cause trouble without the intake of large quantities of alcohol. Turks, Tunisians, etc etc do not need the booze to cause trouble.

congress
13-05-2002, 12:53 PM
The producers of the programme on Nicky Campbells radio programme at 9 this morning.
5 Live i think?

palace ray
13-05-2002, 01:18 PM
I think it's disgusting the way these children get away with it! Because thats all it is now kids.
They said on that programe that the people that got nicked were aged between 14-18. So if thats not acting on the bad name Millwall have got what is. And I also thought it was sad when one of the ex chelsea hooligans said "it's said now because there are families are going, families it's a mans game it's not for families" what a prat. And lets be honest does it take 100 kids to beat up 1 pompy fan walking back to his car! their so hard arent they it just pisses me off those days are gone it's time to go up millwall and wolves!:grrr: :veryangry

Scoot
13-05-2002, 02:01 PM
I am surprised that many of you are so shocked, the problem has not and more than likely will never go away.
What does worry me is that some of will think me a hoolie because I wear a baseball cap and wear, Burberry and Lacoste (and yes I do own an SI jumper), and the fact that my 6 year old with me wears a baseball cap and smart clothes MUST mean that he is one also.
Trust me the Geordies and Mackems scrap with colours on.
Also, it WAS awful seeing that one pompey lad getting slapped but I got done by about 5 down at Fratton a few years ago.

Also, why do some of you think that Millwall going up would highlight the problem? They have thus far ignored the travelling Manure, Leicester, West Ham, Chelsea, Leeds and so on ...... they are mearly sweeping it under the carpet for fear of losing the T.V money.

Dodger
13-05-2002, 02:09 PM
I thought the programme was fantastic just because it continued to highlight millwall hooligans, and show everyone that you certainly shouldn't feel safe at the New Den.

It's all very well some of you saying 'you can avoid trouble easily if you are careful' but there were a few examples on the show which quite clearly showed this not to be the case. When the reporter got stopped by 'Lenny' and 7-8 of his associates he only just escaped a beating becuase he recognised him.

Lucky the police was so co-operative when they stop and searched the reporter or he could have been in a fair bit of trouble!

And as for the tw@ts at the station moaning because they were stopped by police and searched :rolleyes:

Elephant with mouse gyp
13-05-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Ruskin Old Boy
What seems to isolate the English in general is their inability to cause trouble without the intake of large quantities of alcohol. Turks, Tunisians, etc etc do not need the booze to cause trouble.

I don't agree with this 'let's whitewash the poor England fans' line taken by most of you on here.

The problem is not so much the tiny minority of out and out hooligans - I accept most countries have them, too. The problem is the behaviour of large numbers of the ordinary Engalnd fans.

Say there was absolutely no violence whatsoever at an England game during a tournament. Even then a lot of England fans would be a disgrace. Enough of them (not all etc blah, blah) exhibit a rabid version of screwed-face jingoism that turns the stomach. You don't get that in the same numbers and with the same consistency from fans of most other countries.

oli
13-05-2002, 02:11 PM
Did anyone notice at the end of the england - germany footage the massive union flag layed out on the terracing with CPFC Loyalists on it ?? Seems to back up what was talked about at that Rangers game.

Merton Eagle
13-05-2002, 02:36 PM
I saw the CPFC flag, not surprised. The whole thing, like they said, has only just been in a lull in the early 90s. Following the many dawn raids around that time it went very quiet but now it's back with a bang. I don't care if groups of lads want to have a scrap and target each other. What is wrong is to pick 1 bloke and gang up 10 to 1. Pathetic and any of the "top firms" wouldn't bother with this. I also object to smashing up property (and their own people's property?) buses, children & family vehicles, basically anyone not interested in the fighting. It is absolutely pathetic if you ask me and most of the dedicated hoolis wouldn't bother.

I agree with the comment that if you locked an equal number of fans in a closed off area you wouldn't see much trouble. Makes me alugh when you see some of them dancing forward and backwards goading each other. However, some of the organised and more serious hoolis would go over the top and you'd see some casualties.

Pear
13-05-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by N

Good post. All those Millwall fans on one pompy fan that made me very:grrr:

You're not the only one..

"Hooligan code of honour" always has been a pile of bóllocks, and it was a shame that the beeb allowed the retired mugs talk it up in that way..

Bit of a cop out I thought.. England fans and the nationwide league.. hmmmm

Ian of Chatham
13-05-2002, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp


I don't agree with this 'let's whitewash the poor England fans' line taken by most of you on here.

The problem is not so much the tiny minority of out and out hooligans - I accept most countries have them, too. The problem is the behaviour of large numbers of the ordinary Engalnd fans.

Say there was absolutely no violence whatsoever at an England game during a tournament. Even then a lot of England fans would be a disgrace. Enough of them (not all etc blah, blah) exhibit a rabid version of screwed-face jingoism that turns the stomach. You don't get that in the same numbers and with the same consistency from fans of most other countries.
I totally agree. I've had the same old arguments with some BBSers before who say it is always somebody else's fault for the trouble, i.e. the Turkish fans in Belgium during Euro 2000 or the North African youths in Marseille during the 1998 World Cup. It took me only one minute of that programme last night to realise what a bloody disgrace England fans are when they are abroad, with that "No Surrender" song which always seems to come out.

I saw that CPFC loyalist flag oli mentioned as well. I taped the programme and I could not believe it was Palace at first so wound the tape back a few times to double check. I am bloody ashamed to see Palace associated with these type of thugs and hope it never makes an appearance during a Palace game.

Merton Eagle
13-05-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Ian of Chatham
I saw that CPFC loyalist flag oli mentioned as well. I taped the programme and I could not believe it was Palace at first so wound the tape back a few times to double check. I am bloody ashamed to see Palace associated with these type of thugs and hope it never makes an appearance during a Palace game. Don't be surprised if it comes out when we eventually play Celtic. At every London game you may possibly get a mixture of London fans with the help of a certain political party from the South East London area.

anti-addick
13-05-2002, 03:05 PM
There's only one way to deal with it. Surround them, put them in a ring one on one with each other gladiator style. Only one comes out. After round one you'll have half the original number, just keep going until only one is left, then hang him.
Seriously, although i'd love to do that it wouldn't be possible. But what they must do is round them up, arrest and charge them. If it means doing this every week and changing the law to allow curfews, fines, prison or even stocks outside the ground with rotten veg at hand then it needs to be done.

I remember telling some of my friends 3 years ago that I felt that hooliganism was on the way back. And I know 2 Millwall fans that I had argued with after the Palace violence, they defended Millwall to the hilt and said that all of the incidents were blown up by the press. Well now we can see that all season and for some of last season that riots were a regular event at practically every match and supressed by the media. I will never ever go to Bermondsey after seeing this. The Pompey fan thing turned my stomach, thankfully he was rescued before the guy got killed.
And to show how disinterested the animals were in actually supporting Millwall they left 10 minutes early, despite only being 3-2 down, just so they could get into position for the riot that they knew they would cause.
Lenny was a coward, running around with his gang of stupidly dressed mates and punching a guy from behind and running away. What a c*nt. Plus he's a long term dole sponger apparently, that type wouldn't be alive in a Britain run by me, i'd simply have him murdered for being such a waste of space and problem for society. The thug who said about families have ruined football is a plank, what he fails to understand is that is how football should be, without his moronic type ruining it for the rest of us. B@stards the lot of them.

Ruskin Old Boy
13-05-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp


I don't agree with this 'let's whitewash the poor England fans' line taken by most of you on here.



That wasn't my line (OK, I'm being defensive here). No way would I whitewash English fans but having seen Marseilles fans in action in Paris - in real time, not on TV, Feyenoord fighting Ajax, and the unreported (in the UK) border fight a few years between Dutch and German "fans" when the police lost control of the situation for several hours the English press clearly underplay the activities of other countries "fans". Or maybe it's the usual English ignorance of what happens in other countries....:confused:

existential eagle
13-05-2002, 04:19 PM
First of all let's get this into perspective, over 10,000+ England fans travelled out for the game in Munich, and while the programme showed a less than 200 hundred "idiots" throwing bottles and smashing up cars and shops lets not forget that the other 9,800+ of us, had a few beers,watched a great game,sang our hearts out for the lads and came home happy, so please don't generalise when it comes to "England fans abroad"
Just like most Football clubs in the U.K, England has a minority of followers intent on causing trouble, but having followed England abroad for a number of years and looking forward to a great summer out in Japan, as someone else has already mentioned in this thread, it's easy to spot where the potential "hot spots" are and avoid them.
In the case of Munich, Me and the group of lads I go with stayed in Stuttgart on the Friday night frequenting a local pub/club, caught the train to Munich for the game and then straight after returned to Stuttgart to spend the following Sunday morning in a sunny park with a few Steins of beer and large smiles on our faces, no trouble encountered.

As for the Millwall scum rioting every week after the game, if they can't get near enough to arrest them, why don't the old bill get one of those Continental water cannon wagons, a few soakings in their nice clobber on a cold November/December Saturday afternoon would make them think twice about hanging around to throw things at the fans/police.

anti-addick
13-05-2002, 04:33 PM
Well said, a water cannon would soon sort out those tossers. Once they have to walk home soaked and bloody freezing they'd think about having to do it every week.
Also, since it's a riot, why don't the Police encircle them and give their shins a good beating with the long truncheon? Those 'experienced' thugs are only hard when surrounded with their little army, disperse that with a few bruises and soakings and none will bother in future.

We just need to get tough with these outrageous little sh*ts.

johanncryuff
13-05-2002, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Ian of Chatham

I am bloody ashamed to see Palace associated with these type of thugs and hope it never makes an appearance during a Palace game.
Was this merely a flag promoting a CPFC supporter with Loyalist tendencies. Someone born and bred in Belfast perhaps. Who supports Palace.
Just because it is, doesnt make the guy a thug does it. Personally I am against it - but remember some mates a few years back with the Ski hats - Palace one side and Rangers the other. They were NOT thugs. Just Palace fans that either supported the loyalist cause in NI, supported Rangers as their "sweaty" team, or just didn't uinderstand the connatations of the above.
Don't slag off any Palace flag that appears at an England (or an Ireland game) this summer unless it is offensive - and neither the tricolour or the red hand are offensive. But being Bloody ashamed is offensive to me

Sandowneagle
13-05-2002, 05:00 PM
The best is still to come. Wait for the investigation on the Cardiff Soul Crew over the next few weeks. It's a real eye opener.

Ian of Chatham
13-05-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by johanncryuff

Was this merely a flag promoting a CPFC supporter with Loyalist tendencies. Someone born and bred in Belfast perhaps. Who supports Palace.
Just because it is, doesnt make the guy a thug does it. Personally I am against it - but remember some mates a few years back with the Ski hats - Palace one side and Rangers the other. They were NOT thugs. Just Palace fans that either supported the loyalist cause in NI, supported Rangers as their "sweaty" team, or just didn't uinderstand the connatations of the above.
Don't slag off any Palace flag that appears at an England (or an Ireland game) this summer unless it is offensive - and neither the tricolour or the red hand are offensive. But being Bloody ashamed is offensive to me
Did you see the programme last night? The flag cleary was marked with the word "LOYALISTS" on it, not "Rangers". If that is not offensive then what would you say if someone else brought a tricolour to an Ireland game with "Palace IRA" on it? Where do you draw the line?

johanncryuff
13-05-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Ian of Chatham

Did you see the programme last night? The flag cleary was marked with the word "LOYALISTS" on it, not "Rangers". If that is not offensive then what would you say if someone else brought a tricolour to an Ireland game with "Palace IRA" on it? Where do you draw the line?

No I didnt see the programme. But this is quite funny - me an Irish Catholic Palace fan, stating that it is NOT offensive to anyone for another Palace fan to have a flag showing that he is loyal to the Queen of his country.
Palace IRA would indeed be offensive - they are an outlawed organisation. Loyalists are not - it is a term for people loyal to the crown.
Now if it said "Palace loyalist paramilitary groups" then not only would it be offensive, it would be a bloody huge flag;)

leekent1
13-05-2002, 05:24 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by johanncryuff

Was this merely a flag promoting a CPFC supporter with Loyalist tendencies. Someone born and bred in Belfast perhaps. Who supports Palace.
Just because it is, doesnt make the guy a thug does it. Personally I am against it - but remember some mates a few years back with the Ski hats - Palace one side and Rangers the other. They were NOT thugs. Just Palace fans that either supported the loyalist cause in NI, supported Rangers as their "sweaty" team, or just didn't uinderstand the connatations of the above.
Don't slag off any Palace flag that appears at an England (or an Ireland game) this summer unless it is offensive - and neither the tricolour or the red hand are offensive. But being Bloody ashamed is offensive to me [/QUOTE

Johann, this is a very good point. I used to go to Palace matches in the late seventies with a couple of brothers who lived in Bermondey but were from Northern Ireland who supported the loyalists.(Their names are mentioned on another recent thread). I dont see much of them anymore, the last time I saw the younger brother was at Sheff Wed two seasons ago.
Maybe they watch England away matches now and still want to be associated with CPFC. Nothing wrong with that.
I come from Bermondsey, was brought up in Raymouth Road. 1 mile from the New Den and although there was always trouble when I lived there (1961-1978) it was nothing compared to today.
I come to Palace matches with my 13 year old daughter,we are season ticket holders.We go to a few away games together as well, but we will not be attending the Millwall home or away matches this forthcoming season. The police cannot gaurantee our safety and if Millwall 'fans' attack people for just returning to their cars and attack cars for commiting the crime of having a sticker in them, I'd rather not bother. We go to Palace games to enjoy a day out, not to be imtimadated by some idoit who thinks its funny to scare a 13 year old girl. This is not how life should be. Water cannons for Millwall home games seems a good idea. National Service for those caught appeals to me.
I have contacted Palace to ask what thoughts or plans the club have regarding next seasons Millwall matches, I am awaiting reply, but wont hold my breath.........

seaweed hater
13-05-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by johanncryuff

Was this merely a flag promoting a CPFC supporter with Loyalist tendencies. Someone born and bred in Belfast perhaps. Who supports Palace.
Just because it is, doesnt make the guy a thug does it. Personally I am against it - but remember some mates a few years back with the Ski hats - Palace one side and Rangers the other. They were NOT thugs. Just Palace fans that either supported the loyalist cause in NI, supported Rangers as their "sweaty" team, or just didn't uinderstand the connatations of the above.
Don't slag off any Palace flag that appears at an England (or an Ireland game) this summer unless it is offensive - and neither the tricolour or the red hand are offensive. But being Bloody ashamed is offensive to me

very good, well thought out response i personally thought.

congress
13-05-2002, 05:37 PM
Man City v Millwall this year no trouble
Millwall v Man city this year no trouble
Both these games the away fans were banned

Easy answer , just ban their fans but in Palace's circumstance it would be difficult unless they sold tickets to season ticket holders and members only.

It would certainly hit Millwall in the pocket and should then encourage them to do something about their lame attempt at trying to clear up the problem.

Ruskin Old Boy
13-05-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by johanncryuff


No I didnt see the programme. But this is quite funny - me an Irish Catholic Palace fan, stating that it is NOT offensive to anyone for another Palace fan to have a flag showing that he is loyal to the Queen of his country.
Palace IRA would indeed be offensive - they are an outlawed organisation. Loyalists are not - it is a term for people loyal to the crown.
Now if it said "Palace loyalist paramilitary groups" then not only would it be offensive, it would be a bloody huge flag;)

Check out this Northern Ireland Glasgow Rangers web site: http://www.ulsterloyal.freeservers.com/glasgowrangers.html It's a mild one compared to some on the web... Loyal to the Crown? More like loyal to Paisley :clown:

eagle mart
13-05-2002, 05:50 PM
RE: The flag

That is a fair point about the Flag. I clocked the flag with CPFC on it but didn't realise that it had Loyalists on it as well.

I 'm surprised nobody saw a Palace fan getting in amongst it at the beginning of the Programme, no congress, it wasn't Neil The Eagle. He was in the same mob that Yam Yam Lenny was in. (well outside the same pub anyway) I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned it. He did nothing on film apart from be there and yell a few things, but I recognised him as Palace straight away.

As for the person that laughed at the people complaining for being searched at Manchester Piccadilly. It is funny that they do something so obviously for the Camera when they know all the real Hooligans were just being watched outside a pub. I dare say that they wouldn't try and ask one of them to step aside to be searched. It was a stunt for the camera nothing else.

congress
13-05-2002, 05:56 PM
Did i say I saw Neil the Eagle there?

eagle mart
13-05-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by congress
Did i say I saw Neil the Eagle there?

I am joking :p, I was just refering to your rather large paintbrush that's dipped in Whitewash.

Justin
13-05-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by eagle mart
RE: The flag

I 'm surprised nobody saw a Palace fan getting in amongst it at the beginning of the Programme, no congress, it wasn't Neil The Eagle. He was in the same mob that Yam Yam Lenny was in. (well outside the same pub anyway) I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned it. He did nothing on film apart from be there and yell a few things, but I recognised him as Palace straight away.



Do you mean the fan with longish black curly hair?

Scoot
13-05-2002, 06:09 PM
Made me laugh when they 'Section 60'd a bloke for stepping to one side and the copper said 'I stood in the middle' and he made a move to one side...... well course he would cos some prat had stood in his path. :rolleyes:

eagle mart
13-05-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Justin


Do you mean the fan with longish black curly hair?

Could be.

dannyturner
13-05-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by selhurst
I thought tonight's documentary was disturbing, but was also an unbalanced portrayal of how bad things really are. Let's face it, if you go looking for trouble you will always find it. If you do your best to avoid it, then you probably will.



And why exactly should we have to go out of our way to avoid trouble. I should be able to take my family to Millwall and wear my Palace shirt. As long as I am not looking for any trouble I should be safe. This was the very scenario when Palace played in a friendly there about 3 season ago, and what did we get "you f*****n' Palace w@nkers" etc etc. My missus completely lost her rag and wanted to have a go, but I thought the safety of our seven year old son was also quite important in the circumstances. I will never go to Millwall again, and I despise their fans coming to Selhurst, especially after last season. How crap was the reporting of the chair throwing last season?

So my point would be, if the media start to report these things, no matter how poorly, they will highlight the problem, and perhaps some proper action can be taken. It's not a social problem, it's a football problem, as if there wasn't any football there wouldn't be a problem.

NRM the 2nd
13-05-2002, 06:28 PM
What surprised me most was that Kevin Keegan is now head of Manchester police, that guy is the spitting image!!

Anerley Eagle
13-05-2002, 06:32 PM
The programmes got a website.


Hooligans (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2002/hooligans/)

Benny B Block
13-05-2002, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by NRM the 2nd
What surprised me most was that Kevin Keegan is now head of Manchester police, that guy is the spitting image!!

Too true :D

johanncryuff
13-05-2002, 11:10 PM
Sorry this is such a long reply but I just started typing and went a bit loony!!:D

Originally posted by Ruskin Old Boy


... Loyal to the Crown? More like loyal to Paisley :clown:

I didnt want to turn the thread political/religious. It is about hooligans after all - people who go to football and fight because of a tribal/territorial/pride thing. Not about religion/politics/race/creed/colour. So apologies for that to all!!
But the website you attach - I am well aware of hundreds of these, on both sides - many are associated with football through the fact that young males on both sides support a religious or political cause, BUT also go to football. The Green/Blue divide is bigger than football and is used as an excuse for football violence, but is NOT the cause of it. I don't know all the answers. But I do think that the media coverage in this country of any football violence is sh!te - they either "glorify" it in documentaries/ignore the bits they don't want to report/blame the same people all the time.
At most football matches in Div 1 there will be at least 30/40 boys from either side seriously willing to have a go at each other - sometimes "organised" at England games, but more likely based on a pub/corner that has always been the meeting point. BUT, there are at least another couple of hundred people at most clubs WILLING to get involved on certain days - Palace is no different, apart from the fact that they are not as well organised (in large numbers) as some other clubs. The thing is that certain clubs like Millwall and Cardiff have attracted a higher % of these people than other clubs because of their "hard" reputation (stemming in the first place from the type of supporter attracted - dockers etc - the lowest paid and hardest working of the working class in the early 1900's). This then becomes self-perpetuating, and grows further. So, one answer may be to not report any violence at football at all. Then websites like ITK spring up to discuss "events that have happened, not as a planning mechanism". Or you get a complete web based/mobile phone based underground network of boys arranging fights here there and everywhere - the Kent-Essex Sunday game a few years back when 24 arrests were made OUTSIDE the ground following scuffles between supporters "many of whom had West Ham and Milwall tattoos" (the Telegraph, I think, reported this). Or the Brum fans at W-S-M this weekend
Or we just accept that violence has been part of football since it began - Christ - most of the violence was ON the pitch in the early days!! What about ground closures at the Nest (1911??) Millwall numerous times, Man U had their ground closed twice etc in the pre war days, and many other events.
Take any event when predominatly young males from urban areas come together and there will be tension and/or violence. It is on a bigger scale at football than other events because of the "history" of rivalry (media or club hype). And because of alcohol and our inability to handle it. and because of Cocaine. And because of the sheer inability of successive Governments in this country to give both the Police and the courts sufficient powers to stamp it out.

Oh yeah, and because of the fact that many young men see it as a way to be accepted. How many on the BBS can identify with that??

Kevin T
13-05-2002, 11:33 PM
Hardly surprising to see the Palace flag, seeing as almost the first guy shown on camera in Germany (Baseball cap, longish dark hair) is one of Palace's 'top boys'.

selhurst
13-05-2002, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by dannyturner
And why exactly should we have to go out of our way to avoid trouble. I should be able to take my family to Millwall and wear my Palace shirt. As long as I am not looking for any trouble I should be safe.

I know danny, in an ideal world you would be safe. If only this was an ideal world...

Kevin T
13-05-2002, 11:39 PM
Oops sorry - already mentioned above.

I'll tell you what was funny though. Towards the end of the season, him and his mob were walking up the road and there was one policman over the road, about 50 yards behind darting in and out of doorways trying to follow them without being noticed.

What wasn't funny, was when they decided to give Chris who sits behind us a bit of a pasting for singing Palace songs before one game. What code of honour does that follow?

Mat ov CPFC
14-05-2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Kevin T
Oops sorry - already mentioned above.

I'll tell you what was funny though. Towards the end of the season, him and his mob were walking up the road and there was one policman over the road, about 50 yards behind darting in and out of doorways trying to follow them without being noticed.

What wasn't funny, was when they decided to give Chris who sits behind us a bit of a pasting for singing Palace songs before one game. What code of honour does that follow?


Sorry Kev, I am confused. Why would a Palace mob give a Palace fan a pasting for singing Palace songs ?

bobmatt
14-05-2002, 01:01 AM
If you follow this link you will find the bottom of the football league of IQs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/testthenation/results/tables/bottom.shtml

Nuff said

leekent1
14-05-2002, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by bobmatt
If you follow this link you will find the bottom of the football league of IQs

http://www.bbc.co.uk/testthenation/results/tables/bottom.shtml

Nuff said

I dont know weather to laugh or cry.....!

Ruskin Old Boy
14-05-2002, 02:10 AM
The IQ results are worth a new thread:p

They could add a new line to their song

No-one loves us
We don't care
We are stupid, etc etc

PY Palace
14-05-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Ian of Chatham



I saw that CPFC loyalist flag oli mentioned as well. I taped the programme and I could not believe it was Palace at first so wound the tape back a few times to double check. I am bloody ashamed to see Palace associated with these type of thugs and hope it never makes an appearance during a Palace game.

The flag is one of the best around at the moment - all the England lads mention it when you say your Palace and it was on proud display at Old Trafford for the Greece game as well.

I cant understand why people are so shocked that Palace have this kind of following at Enland games, it part of English football culture not just some clubs - we are no different.

The Lion Tamer
14-05-2002, 03:15 AM
Originally posted by Mat ov CPFC



Sorry Kev, I am confused. Why would a Palace mob give a Palace fan a pasting for singing Palace songs ?


Chris had had a few and was just being friendly. They took what he said out of context and decided he was fair game.

scum.

Ian of Chatham
14-05-2002, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by johanncryuff


No I didnt see the programme. But this is quite funny - me an Irish Catholic Palace fan, stating that it is NOT offensive to anyone for another Palace fan to have a flag showing that he is loyal to the Queen of his country.
Palace IRA would indeed be offensive - they are an outlawed organisation. Loyalists are not - it is a term for people loyal to the crown.
Now if it said "Palace loyalist paramilitary groups" then not only would it be offensive, it would be a bloody huge flag;)
Nice try but I'm not entirely convinced. Call me, PC (a rubbish term I don't bother to recognise), over-sensitive or whatever you like but I would not have too much of a problem if it was just the flag with the red hand symbol with "CPFC" on it but the word "loyalists" in large letters is probably just a bit much. I also get offended by the "No surrender" song as well which doesn't help. I'm sure that there are many groups which are also legal but would be very offensive to people. We all have views and opinions which may offend other Palace fans on the General Chit-Chat forum from time to time but they stop the moment we walk through the turnstiles at Palace, it probably doesn't for those guys with that flag, nor is that the case for many Rangers and Celtic fans, who can keep their bigotry north of the border and away from the English league.

Originally posted by PY Palace


The flag is one of the best around at the moment - all the England lads mention it when you say your Palace and it was on proud display at Old Trafford for the Greece game as well.

I cant understand why people are so shocked that Palace have this kind of following at Enland games, it part of English football culture not just some clubs - we are no different.
I'm sure it is a well made flag, I just object to what is on it. See above.

What?
14-05-2002, 04:22 AM
My boss was on that programme! He is a brighton fan as well, so he is a **** of the highest degree!

Kevin T
14-05-2002, 11:22 AM
The only thing I personally find offensive is a clump round the head. Life is too short to worry what other football fans write on a flag.

PeterH
14-05-2002, 05:08 PM
Finally got around to seeing this last night and bits of it terrified me to be truthful. The code of honour was almost bollix. I think it was a German fan that went down outside the tube station, surely first rule is to stay on your feet, and that bloke really used his head for a football. I suppose the code comes into effect in the fact the perpetrators mates stopped him kicking him again.

The louts at Millwall were really brave doing that Portsmouth fan, his head really hit the road. If that bloke had kicked him then that would have been all over. No Code of honour there. Dispels the myth that they are only after their own and that if you are not looking for it you wont get it.

Again it had its comic moments, 'You a Baggie' 'Yeah mate' and then he tw@ts him a few moments later. And what was that woman doing in Munich fancy being married to that, scary. :eek:

It was a quite excellent programme, at last showing what goes on outside grounds that we all knew about. The extent of it surprised me. I wonder how I have avoided it for so long. Other than seeing some stuff v Millwall and feeling some intimidation I have been barely affected. When you consider the number of pubs I have drunk in away from home.

Millwall fans can no longer act the innocent after this. To leave the ground ten minutes before the end of a crucial fixture and be celebrating the equalising goal outside, what is that all about. That women and her baby having a go at them. It vindicated the stories about them attacking Wolves and the stabbings, Portsmouth at Waterloo, and a large number of home matches. Why should the police agree to the costs of this every week, especially when they are being attacked. They liked giving the poor horse a bit of a kicking as well. What about the scumbags in the ground, and the racists and police taunters outside. Im so glad I am Palace. I feel realy sorry for you Pear, I bet you are almost speechless.

I will not be going to the New Den again, they can keep it.

Interesting insights into the policing, especially containment. How did they manage to nearly lose the Nottm boys at London Bridge though.

Scary, but compulsive viewing.

johanncryuff
14-05-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Ian of Chatham

Nice try but I'm not entirely convinced.
Why the F not?? To me, an Irishman in London, both the Red Hand and the term Loyalist are thrown about all over the place. But the red hand is a symbol of a loyalist organisation. The word loyalist means Loyal to the Queen.
In this context that flag should be offensive to me, but as I have a fair idea whose flag it is I'll let the fat, smelly, no good b@stard off.
More offensive is to receive unsolicited txt messages during the Scottish Cup final saying FTP - how would you like something similar??

NRM the 2nd
20-05-2002, 02:25 PM
So who saw last nights episode 'Kicking Off', which mainly featured Cardiff. After watching this surely the FA have to investigate the actions of Sam Hamman and what seems like his full support of their 'Soul Crew'. Offering support to those who get arrested, taking them for Champagne dinners, employing the top members, even calling a meeting and joking with them about what happened against Leeds. Ive never liked this man and that programme has highlighted him as a Disgrace in my opinion. Also thought the steward joking with a fan who had just thrown a chair was beyond belief. After watching this episode it's difficult to decide whos worse, cardiff or Millwall.

Any more views?

Ruskin Old Boy
20-05-2002, 02:29 PM
From an academic point of view (sorry :o ) it has to be Cardiff - Sam H has been actively encouraging this type of behaviour for some time now; no one could accuse the Millwall chairman of similar behaviour.

Sir.S.C Remembered
21-05-2002, 03:45 AM
Went to BBC website about it and Palace didn't have one reported hooligan incident, think thats in last year or so though.

Miss Chief
21-05-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Sir.S.C Remembered
Went to BBC website about it and Palace didn't have one reported hooligan incident, think thats in last year or so though.

I sadly have an example of a Palace hooligan at the last game of the season... West Brom. I was there with four guys (not wearing colours) and two very large, intoxicated and enthusiastic West Brom supporters sat in the away end, in front of us. It was inevitably going to turn into trouble and yep when the frist goal was scored... it kicked off but no-one I was with got involved.

However, a Palace supporter sitting quite a distance away decided to make it his business and mis-took my cousin for a West Brom Supporter and went for him for no apparent reason. It was all pretty scary and ugly. I had to run down to the stewards that seem to be watching it all and eventually we got a sluggish response from the police, who evicted all those involved (but not my cousin who was totally innocent and was there just to enjoy a game of footie). The Palace supporter was let back in towards the end of the match and I then realised he was at the match with his wife and young daughter.... what a terrible example to be setting!

Stavros 69
21-05-2002, 07:09 PM
I watched the programme on Sunday night. Sam H was an absolute disgrace. He encouraged he gang and open took them places. They should be kicked out of the league for what they have done. The only good thing to come out of it was the millionaire thug. I cant see anyone doing business with his for a long time after that programme.

I was thinking of setting up my own gang called the Jazz Group. Anyone interested :o

PeterH
21-05-2002, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Stavros 69
I watched the programme on Sunday night. Sam H was an absolute disgrace. He encouraged he gang and open took them places. They should be kicked out of the league for what they have done. The only good thing to come out of it was the millionaire thug. I cant see anyone doing business with his for a long time after that programme.

I was thinking of setting up my own gang called the Jazz Group. Anyone interested :o

What about the Jizz Group or have Brighton already cornered that one. :p

Stavros 69
22-05-2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by PeterH


What about the Jizz Group or have Brighton already cornered that one. :p

:D :D

AJ1969
22-05-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Merton Eagle
What is wrong is to pick 1 bloke and gang up 10 to 1. Pathetic and any of the "top firms" wouldn't bother with this.

Are you trying to use the old 'honour among thieves' thing here? As far as I'm concerned they're all sad mindless (& futureless) idiots who should be locked up.

Essexeagle
22-05-2002, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Elephant with mouse gyp


I don't agree with this 'let's whitewash the poor England fans' line taken by most of you on here.

The problem is not so much the tiny minority of out and out hooligans - I accept most countries have them, too. The problem is the behaviour of large numbers of the ordinary Engalnd fans.

Say there was absolutely no violence whatsoever at an England game during a tournament. Even then a lot of England fans would be a disgrace. Enough of them (not all etc blah, blah) exhibit a rabid version of screwed-face jingoism that turns the stomach. You don't get that in the same numbers and with the same consistency from fans of most other countries.


I pretty much agree - English (actually British) supporters must be the only supporters in the world who fly into somewhere wonderfully cultural like Rome or Milan and head straight for the pub to drink themselves stupid, intimidate the locals by singing loudly and then go to the game.

I still remember the image of Man Utd fans in Monaco a few years ago, there were basically around 60 of them, bare chested, fat and tatooed - all clutching beer cans, staggering around and singing on an escalator at around 2pm on a Wednesday afternoon.

The locals really couldn't believe what was going on. What the Brits see as 'good old boisterous drinking', the rest of the world sees as stupid, drunken British idiots.

sexyrazor
27-05-2002, 01:14 AM
Is anybody watching the final installment? Boca Juniors and Lazio are crazy!!

LLCOOLSTEVE
27-05-2002, 01:28 AM
Yes, Argentinian football is corrupt, always has been and always will be....

congress
27-05-2002, 02:06 AM
Remember that programme, the next time Palace fans come on here saying the atmosphere was brilliant in a and b blocks in the Holmesdale.

Ruskin Old Boy
27-05-2002, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by sexyrazor
Is anybody watching the final installment? Boca Juniors and Lazio are crazy!!

Yes, gruesome viewing:(

johanncryuff
27-05-2002, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by congress
Remember that programme, the next time Palace fans come on here saying the atmosphere was brilliant in a and b blocks in the Holmesdale.

Sorry Congress - I miss your point. although it has been a long weekend;)
Could you explain please m8??

Riccardo
27-05-2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by congress
Remember that programme, the next time Palace fans come on here saying the atmosphere was brilliant in a and b blocks in the Holmesdale.

It's all relative really. I'd rather A&B be 'fairly loud' than banners with Nordic horsemen on them in the Holmesdale !

Those Boca & Lazio fans were scary, in the sense that they had so much power within the club. In some ways I felt it was sad that Lilan Thuram didn't move there, he could have changed a few people's minds and become a hero....or am I just dreaming ?? Maybe one day, eh ??

Rash the Smash
27-05-2002, 02:52 AM
Without wishing to in anyway defend what was seen tonight I'm afraid we were treated to some fairly selective editing.How many Lazio fans did we actually see involved in any trouble,yet how many were seen passionately supporting their team? The film was carefully made to show the Louis Theroux lookalike leader instigating imflammatory chanting with a megaphone but aside from those around immediately around him no one took much notice. A relatively small section of the Curva Nord was shown emptying to protest at the lack of passion yet the overall message was that the game in Italy is controlled by violent facist sympathisers.
I went to the Lazio v Roma game in March 2000 with a few mates and stood on the Curva Nord. The atmosphere was passionate with non stop noise and spectacle. It was a little ugly when Roma scored at "our" end but there was no violence and no facist saluting.Outside the majority of both sets of fans mingled happily.
Hooliganism is a cancer on the game that we all love but I'm afraid that this series has done litle but sensationalise it. BBC 0/10.

Kevlon
27-05-2002, 03:58 AM
I think the last episode was just to point out that it aint just the English who have hooligans.

But as someone said a bit earlier, Im shocked at the amount of power the Lazio fans have! Even the Frenchy bloke couldnt understand that!

PeterH
27-05-2002, 05:27 PM
I don't agree Rash and if you don't like it we will have a meet your mates and mine okay?

To be fair the programme was designed to look at Hooligans and how they operate within and without their clubs framework. I saw absolutely no suggestion that all Boca or Lazio fans were tarred with the same brush. I saw a few self important thugs that, a bit like Tony Ten Bellies, had been given a few crumbs from the top table, with some free tickets and nice touches at restaurants. Cripes I can just imagine one of us manning our own freebie turnstyle, but its happened with Liverpool effectively before (leading to disaster). I reckon its still a bit like the BBS or the Supporters Trust, SJ makes all the right noises but we haven't got any power. they pander to these groups, but Louis and the Boca bloke are going to be club presidents in the future, because money talks.

Seeing the female Boca fan praying as the second and third Racing goals went in told a story I think. One of the Argie supporters got a real battoning by the police, bet that hurt.

Lazio fans turning on the players at the training ground and people on here get a bit sensitive when our Trev gets a couple of boos.

Ive seen Lazio play at the Olympic and away at Real Madrid, got a few funny looks at the Olympic when I was jumping up and down when Lombardo came on. No trouble though. Although I was in the Pantheon wearing my Palace top and when I was purchasing a map the bloke said, ahh Crystal Palace, ahh Lombardo, bastardo. He had a smile with menaces he was a Roma fan.

Went to see Buenos Aires team San Lorenzo win the Copa Americana and it was absolutely manic and they play in kits identical to Palace. No trouble luckily. Visited Bocas ground a district and was there around 26th January, or perhaps just before. There would have been a good chance of me going to that, with killings in the past not sure whether I would have liked to. Just avoided the worst of the civil unrest as well.

It was a programme about hooligans not about the countless numbers of loyal respectable fans. It never pretended it was anything else.

9/10 from the safety of my settee. :p

Rash the Smash
27-05-2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by PeterH
I don't agree Rash and if you don't like it we will have a meet your mates and mine okay?

It was a programme about hooligans not about the countless numbers of loyal respectable fans. It never pretended it was anything else.

9/10 from the safety of my settee. :p

I take your point but what was it FOR? It rambled on about links with the far right and we saw a bit of posturing but no positive links or evidence whatsoever.
It was the most blinkered, one sided sensationalist tosh since "Great Britain United"

PM me about the meet. ;)