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Nigelbrag
18-05-2014, 10:38 AM
The simple facts are, this project is always going to be a square peg in a round hole project, a very restricted and difficult build to overcome so we cant be too ambitious in our plans. As I have said many times before, the ideal scenario would be a move to a new site as we are then able to develop a purpose built stadium, but that seems an impossible dream trying to find a suitable site locally.
So how do we move forward? looking at those overhead photos of the stadium, shows just how difficult the task is, so many restrictions. I feel even with the building of a large new Main Stand, will require CP of those few houses next to the main gates on the Holmesdale road stand, to allow the New Main stand to be built with greater depth, also allowing both stands to be linked in the corners to increase capacity. The building of the new Main Stand should be of a similar height to the Holmesdale stand (new roof needed) to give an even look, and should be Two Tier with double row of Private boxes, Lounge/Bars areas, Restaurants, etc, and with underground car parking. I assume this project could be carried out without the need for a new Sainsbury's store to be built, should They wish Not to do so.
As for the Whitehorse Lane end, surely the easiest way when looking at that overhead picture is to totally demolish the stand, leaving Sainsbury's and the Houses at the front untouched, and rebuild a larger Three Tier stand similar height to the Main stand (no private boxes) with the top tiers overhanging the bottom area to save space, again link in the corner to the new main stand to increase capacity.
As for the AW stand, it looks far too deep to be practical so a total rebuild is needed. So as to make it a practical stand and cost effective, why not dig down say a further 10 meters to create an area under the stand for Club Offices, restaurant/coffee shop, Club shops, etc. And then build a steeper Two Tier stand with the upper tier overhanging the bottom level slightly, this will allow the stand to be constructed further forward which will provide a more spacious pavement area on Park Rd, and spacious fronting to the new AW stand, and most importantly the roof height level could remain the same.
I should assume the stadium capacity would be around the 40/42k surely sufficient for our long term needs. It may well be these works could be carried out One stand at a time, or we may need to ground share for a couple of seasons.

davemorris04
18-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Let's not end up with something like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vF-31b42LyI/TY8BfdxaIlI/AAAAAAAAAfU/xSb2DE23dAg/s1600/Untitled.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Valley_Parade,_Bradford.jpg

the drexciyan
18-05-2014, 11:12 AM
Filling in corners before rebuilding tiny stands.. What was Geoffrey Richmond thinking?

Arron
18-05-2014, 11:21 AM
Filling in corners before rebuilding tiny stands.. What was Geoffrey Richmond thinking?

I think his ego had pretty much taken over by then.

DaveTuttles
18-05-2014, 11:23 AM
They're also got houses behind their tiny stand so probably can't make it bigger either. The perils of being a smaller club with no clout I'm afraid.

EryrExile
18-05-2014, 11:27 AM
They're also got houses behind their tiny stand so probably can't make it bigger either. The perils of being a smaller club with no clout I'm afraid.

There's a road between the houses and the stand, too. Doubt they'd have much luck building anything under those constraints, so obviously it follows that they'd need to maximise capacity on the other side, even if that leaves a lopsided stadium.

spt1978
18-05-2014, 11:28 AM
Very difficult task for us, need to buy up some of the surrounding properties.

Simmo the Elder
18-05-2014, 12:15 PM
Must admit, on a general note I would not care if all four stands looked different and had their own characteristics. 3 tier Whitehorse to save depth has its merits (like a nicer version of Derby's baseball ground?) this would give the away fans their own tier without any segregation being needed if it completely overhung a tier containing Palace (or vice versa). Hope our main stand has individuality once upgraded, this is the stand the TV public sees, not many clubs have a famous building in its title / history, maybe the main stand could have elements of the Crystal Palace once finished.

dannyturner
18-05-2014, 12:23 PM
There is no great rush IMO, and I am not convinced we would retain our greatest asset with 35-40 thousand in the ground, i.e the current feel of the club and atmosphere.
I have waited 30 odd years for some of these recent experiences, and I am enjoying them fully with Selhurst as it is at present. There were even toilet doors, paper, and hand towels in the Whitehorse this season.

mattyb21
18-05-2014, 03:29 PM
Let's not end up with something like this:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vF-31b42LyI/TY8BfdxaIlI/AAAAAAAAAfU/xSb2DE23dAg/s1600/Untitled.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Valley_Parade,_Bradford.jpg

To be honest from 3 of those stands you'd get a perfect view anywhere in the stand.....

Can't be said about Selhurst.

I personally don't see a problem with Valley Parade if they did the small end up behind goal they'd have 4 pretty good stands and a 30k capacity

Billyd
18-05-2014, 04:52 PM
To be honest from 3 of those stands you'd get a perfect view anywhere in the stand.....

Can't be said about Selhurst.

I personally don't see a problem with Valley Parade if they did the small end up behind goal they'd have 4 pretty good stands and a 30k capacity

Quite. May not look great but they have actually done a really good job with the limited space they have.

Billy Rhino
18-05-2014, 06:08 PM
There is no great rush IMO, and I am not convinced we would retain our greatest asset with 35-40 thousand in the ground, i.e the current feel of the club and atmosphere.
I have waited 30 odd years for some of these recent experiences, and I am enjoying them fully with Selhurst as it is at present. There were even toilet doors, paper, and hand towels in the Whitehorse this season.

That's a very good point, Selhurst has become a very difficult place for the opposition to come to and it's vital we retain, if not improve that atmosphere.

However, a 2nd tier on the Whitehorse end would surely be an improvement as those in the Lower Holmesdale who like to sit/not join in the singing will have more choice, and an improved bigger Main stand would do likewise. The design of the Arthur Wait is key, especially the roof, and if that is too high we could lose the atmosphere.

Billyd
18-05-2014, 06:26 PM
I think the club accepts that the AW needs doing 'first' however it is also realises that it is the biggest stand and going to be almost impossible to build a new AW stand with anything like the same capacity. Therefore by doing the Whitehorse first we still would be able to keep a decent capacity in Selhurst.

Nth Kent Eagle
18-05-2014, 06:49 PM
I'm actually a little disappointed that there aren't any short term measures to provide some additional capacity as there will be young fans who won't be able to see their local team. A real shame.

Bryan
18-05-2014, 07:04 PM
What about rebuilding half the AW at a time I.e. Demolishing half of it completely so reducing the amount of lost seats if part of it has to be done during a season? Just a thought. By the way, how long does it take to build a new stand?

The most important thing for me is we increase the angle of the seating in any of the stands as much as possible which would (1) enhance the acoustics and so overall atmosphere (2) put more rows of seats in the same footprint.

By the way, There is not much wrong with the Holmesdale. Love it.

Billyd
18-05-2014, 07:23 PM
I'm actually a little disappointed that there aren't any short term measures to provide some additional capacity as there will be young fans who won't be able to see their local team. A real shame.

We only actually sold out 3 or 4 games this season I believe.

Nth Kent Eagle
18-05-2014, 07:30 PM
We only actually sold out 3 or 4 games this season I believe.

Sure but we make it quite hard for casual fans. A few more seats for young local fans at cheap prices would be a great building block for the future. Quick edit - success on the pitch may also build ticket demand.

OakwoodEagle
18-05-2014, 08:11 PM
Sure but we make it quite hard for casual fans. A few more seats for young local fans at cheap prices would be a great building block for the future. Quick edit - success on the pitch may also build ticket demand.

We've already given free season tickets to under 10s, what more do you suggest?!

Billy Rhino
18-05-2014, 10:01 PM
What about rebuilding half the AW at a time I.e. Demolishing half of it completely so reducing the amount of lost seats if part of it has to be done during a season? Just a thought. By the way, how long does it take to build a new stand?

The most important thing for me is we increase the angle of the seating in any of the stands as much as possible which would (1) enhance the acoustics and so overall atmosphere (2) put more rows of seats in the same footprint.

By the way, There is not much wrong with the Holmesdale. Love it.

I agree with your first point but obviously you would have to take the roof off first. The issue is that the foundations aren't strong enough to build on top of, however I still think it would be possible to keep half of the stand open for at least some of the season.

If it is possible to build a 2nd tier on the Whitehorse whilst keeping the exec boxes then that is the first logical step. Where all those air-conditioning vent units would go that are currently where the 2nd tier would go is a mystery?

Is there any evidence a steeper rake adds to atmosphere? The Lower Holmesdale and Arthur do fine with a shallow rake.

EEEEEEagles
19-05-2014, 10:42 AM
OK, so after the huge success of my previous mock up:rolleyes:
Here is a 3 tier version of the Whitehorse Land end. If existing tier was not demolished it might be possible to create a stand in this fashion by building above the Sainsbury's building and using the space where the boxes are now. It night cause sight line problems with the filled in corners but that could be ironed out in the design I'm sure.The other alternatives are obviously 2 tiers or one tier that would require varying degrees of demolition. I know there will be those who think this is pie in the sky but I feel we must show some ambition in this department or at least imagine the possibilities just for fun.41858

Billy Rhino
19-05-2014, 10:56 AM
Very good. I think the middle tier would be exec boxes but otherwise it looks spot on.

EEEEEEagles
19-05-2014, 11:07 AM
Very good. I think the middle tier would be exec boxes but otherwise it looks spot on.

Cheers. I feel that the Boxes would be better off on the side stands when they are built and keeping them on the WH would be a major spanner in the design and capacity of a new stand. I appreciate that there is an issue with loss of revenue that the board would be concerned with but this would only be for a season and ultimately two pitch length stands of executive boxes would make up the loss in the longer term.

Dave
19-05-2014, 11:11 AM
executive boxes are traditionally sideways on the pitch as it's the best view

Pub Idol
19-05-2014, 11:39 AM
OK, so after the huge success of my previous mock up:rolleyes:
Here is a 3 tier version of the Whitehorse Land end. If existing tier was not demolished it might be possible to create a stand in this fashion by building above the Sainsbury's building and using the space where the boxes are now. It night cause sight line problems with the filled in corners but that could be ironed out in the design I'm sure.The other alternatives are obviously 2 tiers or one tier that would require varying degrees of demolition. I know there will be those who think this is pie in the sky but I feel we must show some ambition in this department or at least imagine the possibilities just for fun.41858

We need corporate boxes - As many as we can get in. Being a London club we can really cash in with these. I know that's not what supporters wanna here but its mental the money they bring in.

smileysmith
19-05-2014, 11:41 AM
OK, so after the huge success of my previous mock up:rolleyes:
Here is a 3 tier version of the Whitehorse Land end. If existing tier was not demolished it might be possible to create a stand in this fashion by building above the Sainsbury's building and using the space where the boxes are now. It night cause sight line problems with the filled in corners but that could be ironed out in the design I'm sure.The other alternatives are obviously 2 tiers or one tier that would require varying degrees of demolition. I know there will be those who think this is pie in the sky but I feel we must show some ambition in this department or at least imagine the possibilities just for fun.41858

Looks good. Suspect there may need to be a few supporting columns somewhere to hold the two stands at the top up ...

Dave
19-05-2014, 11:46 AM
Modern construction techniques mean probably not

alanlee11
19-05-2014, 11:53 AM
sounds like there will be no work in the Arthur this summer :( - I guess it's not worth doing anything in there if there is larger revamps on the way, but as it is likely to stay as is for years to come, there must surely be some improvements that can be made, that go beyond the superficial stuff.

Few things I can think of:
- antibacterial gel/foam in the toilets (seeing as the soap and paper towels run out so quickly)
- proper in and out signs for the toilets
- move the TV's to above the food kiosks so people are standing on the other side of the concourse, not right in the way of the coutners

EEEEEEagles
19-05-2014, 12:00 PM
We need corporate boxes - As many as we can get in. Being a London club we can really cash in with these. I know that's not what supporters wanna here but its mental the money they bring in.

Can't argue with that, but it would be better to locate them in the new Main Stand and the new AW when built. It would be a shame to compromise the WH development for the sake of a couple of seasons of revenue loss. If we retain the boxes at that end with the space available, a new top tier would have to hold another 5+ K to make the retain a decent capacity while the rest of the ground is being upgraded. That is a possibility, but it wouldn't look too good in my opinion.

EEEEEEagles
19-05-2014, 01:00 PM
41859So if the WH retained the boxes we are thinking of something like this presumably. I think that the upper tier would have to be larger than the one I have knocked up to make a dent on the capacity. The Holmesdale lower holds 5,341 where as the WH holds 2,245. The upper tier of the Holmesdale holds 2,806 so to get a capacity similar in the WH would require an upper tier holding Approx 6,000. In other words, a tier that was similar to the lower part of the Holmesdale. This IMO is exceedingly unlikely. There is of course the possibility of 3 tiers plus the boxes but that would be require a structure that rivaled Eiffel Tower in height.

Daveywest
19-05-2014, 01:20 PM
We won't be able to build a 3 tier Whitehorse unless Sainsburys is demolished. Have you not seen how tiny the concourses are under there?

EEEEEEagles
19-05-2014, 01:35 PM
We won't be able to build a 3 tier Whitehorse unless Sainsburys is demolished. Have you not seen how tiny the concourses are under there?

I don't pretend to know the specifics but I do know that necessity is the mother of invention.
I suspect that a 2 tier with boxes compromise will be the way we go. A 4K ish upper tier making a capacity of around 6,250 in that end reducing the overall capacity by a couple of thousand when the Main stand comes down. That holds 6,163 btw.

AJ
19-05-2014, 01:59 PM
41859So if the WH retained the boxes we are thinking of something like this presumably. I think that the upper tier would have to be larger than the one I have knocked up to make a dent on the capacity. The Holmesdale lower holds 5,341 where as the WH holds 2,245. The upper tier of the Holmesdale holds 2,806 so to get a capacity similar in the WH would require an upper tier holding Approx 6,000. In other words, a tier that was similar to the lower part of the Holmesdale. This IMO is exceedingly unlikely. There is of course the possibility of 3 tiers plus the boxes but that would be require a structure that rivaled Eiffel Tower in height.

The goal appears to be to increase the capacity by 10k. If a rebuild of the AW and Main stand can bring both those up to to 10K, then with the WH and corners having to add about 6k. Another option would be to add a 2nd tier on the AW, assuming that the roof can be raised up(could be plausible as today the roof is almost flat with the houses on the road behind, so an extra 20 feet may not affect lighting etc.)

AJ
19-05-2014, 02:02 PM
I appreciate that there is an issue with loss of revenue that the board would be concerned with but this would only be for a season and ultimately two pitch length stands of executive boxes would make up the loss in the longer term.

I think it will be longer than that. With the complications with Croydon council and the money needed it will take many years in the Prem before either of the side stands are replaced.

Daveywest
19-05-2014, 02:05 PM
I think it will be longer than that. With the complications with Croydon council and the money needed it will take many years in the Prem before either of the side stands are replaced.

Perhaps the Trust should employ someone to give some members of the council some backhanders?

elgin eagle
19-05-2014, 02:20 PM
We won't be able to build a 3 tier Whitehorse unless Sainsburys is demolished. Have you not seen how tiny the concourses are under there?

Surely any upper tier would be able to have massive concourses due to being over the supermarket though? The concourse for the lower tier is tight now its sold out every week to be fair.

Talking about congested space, surely the aw is the biggest issue here? If they are such a money spinner, would it not make sense to build temporary boxes running the back of the arthur, allowing for a much bigger whitehorse upper? As Dave says, they traditionally run along the side of the pitch anyway, and it may slightly ease congestion in that stand.

firesign
19-05-2014, 02:26 PM
If you’re interested in the whole stadium construction stuff there is fairly easy-to-read snippets on here. http://www.grandstands.net/information.htm

bubbs11
19-05-2014, 02:39 PM
Bit of a minor point but something that has crossed the mind; I presume that as side stands go, the Main stand will be first for reconstruction. If so will the TV gantry be moved to there so the viewing public don't see a building site staring back at them?

Simmo the Elder
19-05-2014, 02:47 PM
Bit of a minor point but something that has crossed the mind; I presume that as side stands go, the Main stand will be first for reconstruction. If so will the TV gantry be moved to there so the viewing public don't see a building site staring back at them?
Maybe the main stand redevelopment/extension might be built around the existing structure as Liverpool were able to do with the Kemlyn Road (Centenery Stand):

http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/12/73/54/34/centen10.jpg

The viewing public might then see progression, ambition and intent instead. Who knows.

croydonexile
19-05-2014, 03:03 PM
On a slight different note,SP confirmed on Twitter that a new big screen is being installed. He didn't say if it was going in the same place as the jumbotron or somewhere more visible to people in the AW

EEEEEEagles
19-05-2014, 03:15 PM
I think it will be longer than that. With the complications with Croydon council and the money needed it will take many years in the Prem before either of the side stands are replaced.

Possibly.
There might be some merit in the idea of erecting some temporary boxes elsewhere in the ground. If the WH increases say another 4K, the rest of the ground needs an extra 6k. Currently the AW and Main stand combined holds a tad under 16k. I see the main stand increasing to around 8k and the AW reducing to around 8k which means that the extra capacity will have to come from the filled in corners. My figure of 8k comes from roughly extrapolating from the capacity of the Holmesdale lower tier which is 5,341. In any case it seems to me that the extra 10K can probably be achieved without 2 tiers on the sides.

Seba
19-05-2014, 03:17 PM
On a slight different note,SP confirmed on Twitter that a new big screen is being installed. He didn't say if it was going in the same place as the jumbotron or somewhere more visible to people in the AW

Isn't really anywhere else to put it, is there?

croydonexile
19-05-2014, 03:20 PM
The bit between the AW and holmesdale maybe ?

Nigelbrag
19-05-2014, 03:23 PM
OK, so after the huge success of my previous mock up:rolleyes:
Here is a 3 tier version of the Whitehorse Land end. If existing tier was not demolished it might be possible to create a stand in this fashion by building above the Sainsbury's building and using the space where the boxes are now. It night cause sight line problems with the filled in corners but that could be ironed out in the design I'm sure.The other alternatives are obviously 2 tiers or one tier that would require varying degrees of demolition. I know there will be those who think this is pie in the sky but I feel we must show some ambition in this department or at least imagine the possibilities just for fun.41858

Excellent mock up of the type of a Three Tier Stand that I suggested was needed for the Whitehorse Lane in my suggestions yesterday, with the Bottom tier allocated to away fans. Personally, as I said I would keep it without Executive Boxes, and the Boxes would be incorporated into the new large Main Stand. Well done good graphics.

Seba
19-05-2014, 03:24 PM
The bit between the AW and holmesdale maybe ?

Would be in the way of the sky/tv box and the disabled platform wouldn't it? Plus. would imagine, depending on how far forward or back it was, would mean few from the Holmesdale would be able to see it.

Selhurst Celtic
19-05-2014, 03:26 PM
Landsdowne Road/Aviva Stadium in Dublin suffered from affecting the local houses light issues, hence the bedpan appearance.

http://www.burohappold.com/fileadmin/uploads/bh/Photos/Projects/Slideshow/Aviva%20Stadium%20arial%20view.jpg

http://www.stwarchitects.com/data/projects/04135/img1.jpg

elgin eagle
19-05-2014, 03:50 PM
Maybe cpfc2010 are waiting for safe standing to be approved before anouncing plans for a vast 12,000 standing area in the whitehorse lane end, and shifting the boxes into the aw to ease congestion in there a bit.

That would take capacity to 35000 without doing hardly anything :)

Nigelbrag
19-05-2014, 04:04 PM
Landsdowne Road/Aviva Stadium in Dublin suffered from affecting the local houses light issues, hence the bedpan appearance.

http://www.burohappold.com/fileadmin/uploads/bh/Photos/Projects/Slideshow/Aviva%20Stadium%20arial%20view.jpg

http://www.stwarchitects.com/data/projects/04135/img1.jpg

Stunning architecture and a fab modern stadium, just a pity it has that lowered end.

dave_who_ru
19-05-2014, 04:08 PM
Maybe cpfc2010 are waiting for safe standing to be approved before anouncing plans for a vast 12,000 standing area in the whitehorse lane end, and shifting the boxes into the aw to ease congestion in there a bit.

That would take capacity to 35000 without doing hardly anything :)

Safe standing still means seats which means you will still be limited capacity wise.

firesign
19-05-2014, 04:11 PM
i think the lowered end looks fine

elgin eagle
19-05-2014, 04:12 PM
Safe standing still means seats which means you will still be limited capacity wise.

True, but rail seats hold more bums than big plastic buggers with no legroom.

the drexciyan
19-05-2014, 04:24 PM
41859So if the WH retained the boxes we are thinking of something like this presumably. I think that the upper tier would have to be larger than the one I have knocked up to make a dent on the capacity. The Holmesdale lower holds 5,341 where as the WH holds 2,245. The upper tier of the Holmesdale holds 2,806 so to get a capacity similar in the WH would require an upper tier holding Approx 6,000. In other words, a tier that was similar to the lower part of the Holmesdale. This IMO is exceedingly unlikely. There is of course the possibility of 3 tiers plus the boxes but that would be require a structure that rivaled Eiffel Tower in height.

This design probably wont happen because the rake of the upper tier could be greater than the maximum allowed. That pic has the view from the upper tier only upto the penalty area, you wouldnt be able to see the goal.

I dont think exec boxes are in the long term plan for the WH, I reckon its going to be a 2-storeys of them in a massive new main stand. The challenge is what to do in the interim building phase, I can see a lot of double decker portacabins squeezed into corners over the course of at least one season.

the drexciyan
19-05-2014, 04:35 PM
hehe, one kickarse way to solve the exec boxes issue could be to build them to run above the main stand on a temporary platform whilst the WH is being rebuilt. That of course is merely kicking the can down the road for when the main stand is rebuilt, but it could alleviate the issue of losing the WH boxes in the short term. Amazing view probably too.

elgin eagle
19-05-2014, 04:57 PM
hehe, one kickarse way to solve the exec boxes issue could be to build them to run above the main stand on a temporary platform whilst the WH is being rebuilt. That of course is merely kicking the can down the road for when the main stand is rebuilt, but it could alleviate the issue of losing the WH boxes in the short term. Amazing view probably too.

Or maybe something like this above the players tunnel?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=celebrity+squares&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=lTd6U6yKNobAPJLdgfgJ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=929#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=SYGYi6vkIaRaSM%253A%3BH39WLsv8vrw9EM%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252FJ_K9I5Z-TNw%252F0.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Farticle.wn.com% 252Fview%252F2014%252F04%252F23%252F23_4_2014_Cele brity_Squares_on_ITV_DCD_Media_plc%252F%3B480%3B36 0

the drexciyan
19-05-2014, 05:01 PM
Or maybe something like this above the players tunnel?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=celebrity+squares&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=lTd6U6yKNobAPJLdgfgJ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=929#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=SYGYi6vkIaRaSM%253A%3BH39WLsv8vrw9EM%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fi.ytimg.com%252Fvi%252FJ_K9I5Z-TNw%252F0.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Farticle.wn.com% 252Fview%252F2014%252F04%252F23%252F23_4_2014_Cele brity_Squares_on_ITV_DCD_Media_plc%252F%3B480%3B36 0

The modular construction could work, need a bit more depth though :D

elgin eagle
19-05-2014, 05:20 PM
The modular construction could work, need a bit more depth though :D

It could work, that area needs something and it could act as an infill. Just stack up a load of truck containers, sorted :p

anti-addick
19-05-2014, 09:16 PM
A big glass roof over the stadium and ladders to get up to it. Fans lay face down, planking, to watch from directly above.

Wayne-o
20-05-2014, 07:04 AM
I've been fascinated by the Wolves Stan Cullis stand redevelopmentsince I first saw that time lapse video ( a few pages back on this thread I think). For what seems like a comparatively simple / straightforward upgrade, it's still unbelievably expensive! It certainly puts into perspective some of the wild ideas on here, not least because we'd probably have far bigger challenges Re residents, foundations, Sainsbury etc.:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molineux_Stadium

Plans were announced in May 2010 to begin an extensive multi-million pound programme of redevelopment to enlarge the stadium's capacity and develop its facilities.[4] A full application for planning permission was submitted in September 2010,[8] and granted three months later.[9]

Phase 1 of this process was confirmed in February 2011,[10][11] and commenced on 23 May 2011 as demolition of the Stan Cullis Stand began. In its place a new two-tier stand (seating 7,798), complete with mega-store, museum, café and hospitality facilities, was planned for the 2012–13 season which extended around into the north-east corner.[10]

This phase, costing an estimated £18 million, was carried out by contractors the Buckingham Group.[12] By September 2011 the lower tier was opened to fans, permitting a temporary stadium capacity of 27,828.[13][14] The stand was fully opened on 11 August 2012 for the club's first fixture of the 2012–13 season,[15] creating a new official stadium capacity of 30,852.[2]

Simmo the Elder
20-05-2014, 07:19 AM
I've been fascinated by the Wolves Stan Cullis stand redevelopmentsince I first saw that time lapse video ( a few pages back on this thread I think). For what seems like a comparatively simple / straightforward upgrade, it's still unbelievably expensive! It certainly puts into perspective some of the wild ideas on here, not least because we'd probably have far bigger challenges Re residents, foundations, Sainsbury etc.:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molineux_Stadium

Plans were announced in May 2010 to begin an extensive multi-million pound programme of redevelopment to enlarge the stadium's capacity and develop its facilities.[4] A full application for planning permission was submitted in September 2010,[8] and granted three months later.[9]

Phase 1 of this process was confirmed in February 2011,[10][11] and commenced on 23 May 2011 as demolition of the Stan Cullis Stand began. In its place a new two-tier stand (seating 7,798), complete with mega-store, museum, café and hospitality facilities, was planned for the 2012–13 season which extended around into the north-east corner.[10]

This phase, costing an estimated £18 million, was carried out by contractors the Buckingham Group.[12] By September 2011 the lower tier was opened to fans, permitting a temporary stadium capacity of 27,828.[13][14] The stand was fully opened on 11 August 2012 for the club's first fixture of the 2012–13 season,[15] creating a new official stadium capacity of 30,852.[2]
Thanks Wayne-o an excellent example of modern day costs and timescales for a stand which I'm guessing will probably be around similar size to new WHL. I am very pleased to see they got the lower tier (which is a fairly sizeable one) built and open after just four months, but this would appear to have been without a roof for a while? Cheers

Norwich_Eagle
20-05-2014, 11:46 AM
The costs of redevelopment are always going to be more significant than a new development. Same with anything, because you have to build around what is already there, improve what is already there etc. the costs go up. If you are building where nothing is it is quicker as well usually.

I believe when the plans for CPP were released I saw quite a few plans/reports etc. that quoted £1m for every seat in building a brand new stadium. So a new 35,000 all-seater stadium would cost you £35m to build. But that doesn't take into account any extras like buying residents properties to knock down etc. but if you are new-building a ground you wouldn't likely have to do that anyway.

Liverpool are looking to spend £150m on adding just under 20,000 seats to Anfield - £7500 per seat
Real Madrid are looking to spend £330m on just improving the Bernabeu not adding any seats
Ulster Rugby club spent just over £20m on adding various facilities and 6,500 seats - nearly £3100 per seat
Peterborough are spending £5.5m on re-developing the Moys End which is only adding 700 additional capacity - nearly £8000 per seat

Obviously that price per seat is not taking into account additional facilities that the new stand can include - restaurants/bars/learning centres/museums etc.

Compare that to the price of new stadium builds:

Cardiff City Stadium - 32,000 seats at a cost of £48m = £1.5m p/seat
(Rotherham's) New York Stadium - 12,021 seats at a cost of £20m = £1.6m p/seat
(Leicester's) King Power Stadium - 32,262 seats at a cost of 37m = £1.14m p/seat
(Reading's) Madejski Stadium - 24,161 seats at a cost of £50m = £2.1m p/seat

I would argue that building a brand new 35,000 seater stadium would cost (based on those "new-build" numbers above ave. £1.5m) would cost us a total of £52.5m (roughly)

Re-developing Selhurst Park up to 35,000 i.e. adding 10,000 seats (based on those "redevelopment" numbers above) would cost us a total of £48m (roughly) alone.

Lord Flange
20-05-2014, 12:17 PM
Norwich, I hope you're talking in thousands (£) per seat. By your calculations it could cost billions to build. :eek::hmph:

Twilko
20-05-2014, 01:01 PM
Yeah, think you might have to revisted the maths on that one...

Norwich_Eagle
20-05-2014, 01:17 PM
Yes I have made a slight formula error in the examples but I cannot be bothered to change them. The end numbers are correct though, to add 10,000 on an existing site using an average of the costs in the examples would cost us around £48m where as building a new 35,000 seater stadium would cost £52.5m again based on an average of the costs on those examples.

Lord Flange
20-05-2014, 01:34 PM
Grateful for the maths Norwich. Puts into perspective what we need to do and raise. I reckon with some prudent housekeeping and help perhaps from the likes of Sainsburys another two to three years in the prem would provide enough income to fund any redevelopment.

EEEEEEagles
20-05-2014, 02:04 PM
I think any sensible minded person would be in favour of a new stadium with all the advantaged it would bring. The relative cost alone is reason enough.
The stumbling block is always where to build it and how many hurdles have to be jumped and how long it will take.
Rumour has it that if you want to ride rough shod over local objections and planning issues, you have to know the right politicians and grease the right palms.
On another subject: Has any body seen the recent ruling on the redevelopment of Lydd airport in Kent by middle eastern businessman. Thousands of locals objected and environmentalists were up in arms but it is still going ahead anyway at this point.

gadford4th
20-05-2014, 05:15 PM
If the club wants the WH stand to be the first to be redeveloped, I can't see anyway of doing this without persuading Sainsburys to build a new store over the car park.

The footprint of the carpark is roughly the same as the Sainsburys in Selsdon, where most parking is accommodated underground.

If you win the space back, you can build a pretty decent stand in the WH, including a decent corner where the loading bay/delivery area currently abides.

Norwich_Eagle
20-05-2014, 07:16 PM
Agree with that Gadford4th I never realised until just now how big the Sainsburys site is there if you include the delivery area etc. which you would have too.

Have attached a photo roughly showing the actual size of the WHL Stand compared to the Sainsburys area. To give you some indication the stand area would appear to fit in the area that is "Sainsburys" about 4 times.

There are currently about 400 car parking spaces in the "Sainsburys Car Park"
There are currently about 150 car parking spaces in the "Directors Car Park"

If you could somehow move Sainsburys into the position it is in my attached photo (red box) and give it some form of underground car park to accommodate those 550/600 parking spaces - or the majority of them, then it could be possible that there is same size Sainsburys, better access roads in and out of both car parks, a bigger WHL Stand, bigger area to re-develop the Main Stand which would ultimately give us a much bigger capacity.

Rev.B
20-05-2014, 07:43 PM
If they built a new Sainsburys, they could put a multi-tier parking structure on top of the store instead, and get a lot more parking spaces to boot. It might be easier construction than digging down. The placement and shape of the store/structure would be key, to avoid any light-infringement issues for the surrounding houses.

CPFC BORN &BRED
20-05-2014, 07:54 PM
There is a new Sainsburys in Rustington near worthing,which is massive and is built on stilts,with the car park below,they could easily replicate this in the car park area.

imashed
20-05-2014, 08:16 PM
i think the lowered end looks fine

It looks odd inside with a sort run out of money end look.

Stigma
20-05-2014, 08:30 PM
How about a campaign threatening to stop shopping at this Sainsbury shop if they aren’t playing ball with Palace? Surely there are xxx number of Palace fans shopping there?

anti-addick
20-05-2014, 08:56 PM
If they built a new Sainsburys, they could put a multi-tier parking structure on top of the store instead, and get a lot more parking spaces to boot. It might be easier construction than digging down. The placement and shape of the store/structure would be key, to avoid any light-infringement issues for the surrounding houses.


Tesco, Yate. New store, all of the parking is underneath. The rest of the carpark was already there.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LZJAe4OCU3c/TqSI6we5guI/AAAAAAAADAs/PwvMm_B1zf4/s1600/tesco.jpg

anti-addick
20-05-2014, 09:00 PM
I've been fascinated by the Wolves Stan Cullis stand redevelopmentsince I first saw that time lapse video ( a few pages back on this thread I think). For what seems like a comparatively simple / straightforward upgrade, it's still unbelievably expensive! It certainly puts into perspective some of the wild ideas on here, not least because we'd probably have far bigger challenges Re residents, foundations, Sainsbury etc.:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molineux_Stadium

....


Expected:
http://news.wombourne.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/molineux2.jpg

Now:
http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/united_kingdom/england/west_midlands/wolverhampton_molineux1.jpg


I think any sensible minded person would be in favour of a new stadium with all the advantaged it would bring. The relative cost alone is reason enough.
The stumbling block is always where to build it and how many hurdles have to be jumped and how long it will take.
Rumour has it that if you want to ride rough shod over local objections and planning issues, you have to know the right politicians and grease the right palms.
On another subject: Has any body seen the recent ruling on the redevelopment of Lydd airport in Kent by middle eastern businessman. Thousands of locals objected and environmentalists were up in arms but it is still going ahead anyway at this point.


No thanks. New stadium = shit atmosphere overnight. You'll never get it back either.

Dave
20-05-2014, 09:22 PM
The costs of redevelopment are always going to be more significant than a new development. Same with anything, because you have to build around what is already there, improve what is already there etc. the costs go up. If you are building where nothing is it is quicker as well usually.

I believe when the plans for CPP were released I saw quite a few plans/reports etc. that quoted £1m for every seat in building a brand new stadium. So a new 35,000 all-seater stadium would cost you £35m to build. But that doesn't take into account any extras like buying residents properties to knock down etc. but if you are new-building a ground you wouldn't likely have to do that anyway.

Liverpool are looking to spend £150m on adding just under 20,000 seats to Anfield - £7500 per seat
Real Madrid are looking to spend £330m on just improving the Bernabeu not adding any seats
Ulster Rugby club spent just over £20m on adding various facilities and 6,500 seats - nearly £3100 per seat
Peterborough are spending £5.5m on re-developing the Moys End which is only adding 700 additional capacity - nearly £8000 per seat

Obviously that price per seat is not taking into account additional facilities that the new stand can include - restaurants/bars/learning centres/museums etc.

Compare that to the price of new stadium builds:

Cardiff City Stadium - 32,000 seats at a cost of £48m = £1.5m p/seat
(Rotherham's) New York Stadium - 12,021 seats at a cost of £20m = £1.6m p/seat
(Leicester's) King Power Stadium - 32,262 seats at a cost of 37m = £1.14m p/seat
(Reading's) Madejski Stadium - 24,161 seats at a cost of £50m = £2.1m p/seat

I would argue that building a brand new 35,000 seater stadium would cost (based on those "new-build" numbers above ave. £1.5m) would cost us a total of £52.5m (roughly)

Re-developing Selhurst Park up to 35,000 i.e. adding 10,000 seats (based on those "redevelopment" numbers above) would cost us a total of £48m (roughly) alone.

2m per seat

AJ
20-05-2014, 09:48 PM
Agree with that Gadford4th I never realised until just now how big the Sainsburys site is there if you include the delivery area etc. which you would have too.

Have attached a photo roughly showing the actual size of the WHL Stand compared to the Sainsburys area. To give you some indication the stand area would appear to fit in the area that is "Sainsburys" about 4 times.

There are currently about 400 car parking spaces in the "Sainsburys Car Park"
There are currently about 150 car parking spaces in the "Directors Car Park"

If you could somehow move Sainsburys into the position it is in my attached photo (red box) and give it some form of underground car park to accommodate those 550/600 parking spaces - or the majority of them, then it could be possible that there is same size Sainsburys, better access roads in and out of both car parks, a bigger WHL Stand, bigger area to re-develop the Main Stand which would ultimately give us a much bigger capacity.

I remember back in the really old days when the Whitehorse was all terrace. It was large and at the back of the top tier there was a line of bathrooms and a snack bar and behind that was rough ground that was equal to the size of the whole end which stretched back to a fence which overlooked Whitehorse Lane, the houses that now face Whitehorse Lane were part of the rough ground area. All I can say is that the idiot(s) greedy SOBs who sold all that land for a small profit ****ed up the chance for Palace to have a really large all seated stadium.

Hal Low
20-05-2014, 10:18 PM
I remember back in the really old days when the Whitehorse was all terrace. It was large and at the back of the top tier there was a line of bathrooms and a snack bar and behind that was rough ground that was equal to the size of the whole end which stretched back to a fence which overlooked Whitehorse Lane, the houses that now face Whitehorse Lane were part of the rough ground area. All I can say is that the idiot(s) greedy SOBs who sold all that land for a small profit ****ed up the chance for Palace to have a really large all seated stadium.

Raymond Bloye. And even at the time it was obvious madness. On the bright side, though, since then I've never been at the Holmesdale end looking over to the Whitehorse packed with 15,000 Chelsea or Arsenal

Celestial Empire
20-05-2014, 10:47 PM
2m per seat

Err ... £2K /seat ?

GorBlimey
20-05-2014, 11:51 PM
Raymond Bloye. And even at the time it was obvious madness. On the bright side, though, since then I've never been at the Holmesdale end looking over to the Whitehorse packed with 15,000 Chelsea or Arsenal

I think it may have been Ron Noades when he first took over?

PalaceSi
21-05-2014, 12:09 AM
I think it may have been Ron Noades when he first took over?

No it wasn't, it was Bloye. An unbelievably short sighted and absolutely useless piece of business.

GorBlimey
21-05-2014, 12:15 AM
No it wasn't, it was Bloye. An unbelievably short sighted and absolutely useless piece of business.

Well he must have b*uggered off shortly afterwards then 'cos Noades took over around that time.

davech
21-05-2014, 12:55 AM
No it wasn't, it was Bloye. An unbelievably short sighted and absolutely useless piece of business.

Yes. It was Bloye in Sept 1980, around the time the "Team of the Eighties" started to implode.

Bloye did a runner, Ron came along in January. No idea if Ron knew about the deal or was party to it. Find it difficult to believe that a man shrewd enough to hold onto the ground when selling to Goldberg had no knowledge of it though

winston the dog
21-05-2014, 02:27 AM
I know there are natural light issues with the houses in the corner but couldn't an extent tier be built on top of the main stand while that stand was kept open?
Guessing no but just a thought.

GorBlimey
21-05-2014, 02:31 AM
No idea if Ron knew about the deal or was party to it. Find it difficult to believe that a man shrewd enough to hold onto the ground when selling to Goldberg had no knowledge of it though


I think that there must have been some really strange financial shenanigans going on at the time then. Venables was there too wasn't he?

Twiggy
21-05-2014, 05:38 AM
How about a campaign threatening to stop shopping at this Sainsbury shop if they aren’t playing ball with Palace? Surely there are xxx number of Palace fans shopping there?

... i think that any time it gets to this point we can forget about any development.... for sure the way ahead at selhurst is with open and friendly cooperation with common financial benefits not an atmosphere of threats and distrust....but of course it will be better to emphasis that CPFC supporters will also be sainsbury's customers too !! )))

Dorking .Eagle
21-05-2014, 05:47 AM
Sainsburys annual turnover puts Palace seriously in the shade. We need them to co-operate with us much more than the other way around. Getting stroppy with them will not help in any way.

anti-addick
21-05-2014, 06:51 AM
Sainsburys plc or just that store? And turnover means feck all.

Scrumpy
21-05-2014, 07:41 AM
Sainsburys plc or just that store? And turnover means feck all.

Sainsburys PLC pre-tax profit for the year to 15 March rose by 16.3% to £898m, so I think a handful of Palace fans refusing to shop their won't have too much of a drastic effect

Don't_care
21-05-2014, 08:09 AM
How about a campaign threatening to stop shopping at this Sainsbury shop if they aren’t playing ball with Palace? Surely there are xxx number of Palace fans shopping there?

Oh no! I've suddenly got visions of a few "stripey Nigels" chained to the railings preventing delivery lorries turning up to the Sainsburys Crystal Palace branch.

Simmo the Elder
21-05-2014, 08:12 AM
Agree with that Gadford4th I never realised until just now how big the Sainsburys site is there if you include the delivery area etc. which you would have too.

Have attached a photo roughly showing the actual size of the WHL Stand compared to the Sainsburys area. To give you some indication the stand area would appear to fit in the area that is "Sainsburys" about 4 times.

There are currently about 400 car parking spaces in the "Sainsburys Car Park"
There are currently about 150 car parking spaces in the "Directors Car Park"

If you could somehow move Sainsburys into the position it is in my attached photo (red box) and give it some form of underground car park to accommodate those 550/600 parking spaces - or the majority of them, then it could be possible that there is same size Sainsburys, better access roads in and out of both car parks, a bigger WHL Stand, bigger area to re-develop the Main Stand which would ultimately give us a much bigger capacity.
Yep, a big ole bit of space behind that WHL goal. Using the Arthur's depth, length and seating capacity as a guide (9754 seats) - the depth of the Arthur you could easily fit behind that goal on top of the yellow box in your handy thumbnail picture - and you can get 7000 behind that goal, without even an additional overhanging tier(s) or the big docking corner filled in. Exec Boxes might reduce this.

Beanie
21-05-2014, 08:46 AM
How about a campaign threatening to stop shopping at this Sainsbury shop if they aren’t playing ball with Palace? Surely there are xxx number of Palace fans shopping there?

I doubt there are enough to make a dent in the stores profit, and all any press coverage would be free advertising. They'd probably come out on top!

Norwich_Eagle
21-05-2014, 09:45 AM
You can actually get a bigger stand than the current AW Dimensions into the space that is currently Sainsburys and the WHL Stand. See Picture two.

Picture 1 - Sainsburys and Selhurst Park Currently
Picture 2 - Sainsburys moved to the car park and Main Stand & WHL Stand the same as the AW
Picture 3 - Sainsburys moved to the car park, the WHL Stand is the same size as the AW is currently and the Main Stand is extended to have the corners filled in between the Holmesdale and the WHL Stands.

If you build a ground with the capacity similar to Picture 2 you would effectively have capacities of the following:

AW - 9,754
Holmesdale - 8,147
Main Stand - 8,500 (less seats due to Exec. Boxes, Media Boxes etc.)
WHL - 9,754
Total - 36,155

If you build a ground with the "corners filled" as well similar to Picture 3 you would effectively have capacities of the following:

AW - 9,754
Holmesdale - 8,147
Main Stand - 10,500 (less seats due to Exec. Boxes, Media Boxes etc.) but with 1,000 extra seats in each "corner"
WHL - 9,754
Total - 38,155

Once, Sainsburys has moved, the WHL has been re-built, the Main Stand re-built, the corners filled in you could then look at re-designing the AW Stand and hit that magic 40,000 All-Seater Capacity I guess.

Simple :rolleyes::clown::lux:

GreatGonzo
21-05-2014, 10:04 AM
Sainsbury's will want a roadside frontage. The best solution would be to get hold of the houses on Whitehorse Lane and build a new Sainsburys superstore where they are and over the existing supermarket site. Then any stand we build can be built over the top of it and be very very deep if we wanted it to be.

There are 2 types of Tesco/Sainsburys etc being built. Convenience store and huge supermarkets. Selhurst is neith so using its footprint is IMO irrelevant. The commercial viability of that store has to be questioned given its size and range, especially with Tesco in Thornton Heath so close. Either they will want to develop BIG (which i think is the case) or they could move out of the site. Sainsbury's Purley Way is 3-4 times the size of the Selhurst park site.

Norwich_Eagle
21-05-2014, 10:18 AM
If you open the Entrance/Exit where it currently is now i.e. in between the Fuel Station and the Club Shop on the corner and angled the new supermarket correctly then you would still have roadside frontage. Certainly similar to what they have now.

That being said I completely agree with you buying the houses on WHL and moving the store "roadside" thus allowing a deeper stand would be brilliant. But very very costly - there are 15 flats there from memory, if each cost say £200k then you are looking at £3m straight away.

GreatGonzo
21-05-2014, 10:34 AM
If you open the Entrance/Exit where it currently is now i.e. in between the Fuel Station and the Club Shop on the corner and angled the new supermarket correctly then you would still have roadside frontage. Certainly similar to what they have now.

That being said I completely agree with you buying the houses on WHL and moving the store "roadside" thus allowing a deeper stand would be brilliant. But very very costly - there are 15 flats there from memory, if each cost say £200k then you are looking at £3m straight away.

£3m to who?

You ignore the bit where i say Sainsbury's HAS to increase in size to survive there. They will have to be involved in the development and therefore share some of the costs.

Norwich_Eagle
21-05-2014, 10:45 AM
I'm not ignoring that point at all Gonzo I am completely agreeing with you, I am just saying that there will be ways around it. I should have ended my 2nd sentence "certainly similar to what they have now, if not bigger" followed by:

For instance moving the store to where the car park is now but opening the entrance/exit to the road itself up will improve visibility and access in/out of the car park. Plus there is a larger area there for Sainsburys and the club to work with in terms of store size and multi-storey/underground car park options.

The £3m is a rough figure for compulsory purchase orders where you have to provide the value of the property, costs of acquiring and moving to a new property as well as some costs to the tenant.

AJ
21-05-2014, 10:55 AM
It's interesting to see how skinny the Main Stand and WHL stands arecompared to the AW, it seems of all the stands the AW has the worse number of seats per sq foot. If the AW can be increased In height and slimmer, then possibly the same amount of people could fit into a smaller footprint(wide), which could allow the pitch to move away from the main stand and a new larger(wide) stand with more seats could be built in place of the main stand. There is room to fill the AW side of the Holmesdale whole closing the part that would be behind the replacement main stand to keep that capacity of the Holmesdale the same.

Spanish Dan
21-05-2014, 11:27 AM
It's interesting to see how skinny the Main Stand and WHL stands arecompared to the AW, it seems of all the stands the AW has the worse number of seats per sq foot. If the AW can be increased In height and slimmer, then possibly the same amount of people could fit into a smaller footprint(wide), which could allow the pitch to move away from the main stand and a new larger(wide) stand with more seats could be built in place of the main stand. There is room to fill the AW side of the Holmesdale whole closing the part that would be behind the replacement main stand to keep that capacity of the Holmesdale the same.

I was wondering if the same thing could be done along the length of the pitch, albeit on a much smaller scale since we have quite a short pitch anyway. Could we remove, say, the first 2 rows of the Holmesdale and move the pitch a few metres in that direction? That would give a little bit more breathing space for the lower tier of the WHL stand which, combined with a slightly steeper incline might be enough to gain a bigger concourse behind it.

Simmo the Elder
21-05-2014, 11:28 AM
You can actually get a bigger stand than the current AW Dimensions into the space that is currently Sainsburys and the WHL Stand. See Picture two.

Picture 1 - Sainsburys and Selhurst Park Currently
Picture 2 - Sainsburys moved to the car park and Main Stand & WHL Stand the same as the AW
Picture 3 - Sainsburys moved to the car park, the WHL Stand is the same size as the AW is currently and the Main Stand is extended to have the corners filled in between the Holmesdale and the WHL Stands.

If you build a ground with the capacity similar to Picture 2 you would effectively have capacities of the following:

AW - 9,754
Holmesdale - 8,147
Main Stand - 8,500 (less seats due to Exec. Boxes, Media Boxes etc.)
WHL - 9,754
Total - 36,155

If you build a ground with the "corners filled" as well similar to Picture 3 you would effectively have capacities of the following:

AW - 9,754
Holmesdale - 8,147
Main Stand - 10,500 (less seats due to Exec. Boxes, Media Boxes etc.) but with 1,000 extra seats in each "corner"
WHL - 9,754
Total - 38,155

Once, Sainsburys has moved, the WHL has been re-built, the Main Stand re-built, the corners filled in you could then look at re-designing the AW Stand and hit that magic 40,000 All-Seater Capacity I guess.

Simple :rolleyes::clown::lux:
I am not a million miles away from your calculation examples Norwich, using a different way of calculating WHL and WHL / AW corner linking WHL to AW. Anyway, throw future safe standing possibilities for WHL or Holmesdale lower into the mix and 40k would be exceeded, IMO without even touching the Arthur or 3 of the corners.

Exciting times indeed. I wonder if TP is aware of the averages and crowds first in the late 60's early 70s then the 1979/80 season and the 1980 crash, which included the demolition of one end. Unless I am mistaken, we have just achieved our highest average since 1979-80 so the restoration of the Whitehorse will be symbolic of a 34 year+ recovery, that is what it is

Norwich_Eagle
21-05-2014, 11:41 AM
I think it is all very achievable, they key thing for me is what Sainsburys want to do. If they are prepared to move on the site and the car park issue can be sorted then everything else will fall into place over time. Likely to be a long time and a lot of planning will be needed obviously but this is exciting!

Scrumpy
21-05-2014, 11:45 AM
I was wondering if the same thing could be done along the length of the pitch, albeit on a much smaller scale since we have quite a short pitch anyway. Could we remove, say, the first 2 rows of the Holmesdale and move the pitch a few metres in that direction? That would give a little bit more breathing space for the lower tier of the WHL stand which, combined with a slightly steeper incline might be enough to gain a bigger concourse behind it.

My season ticket is in the second row!! :sob::sob:

lawsy_boy
21-05-2014, 11:53 AM
Who owns Crystals anyway? That seems to be right in the mix of any store move for Sainsburys

Simmo the Elder
21-05-2014, 12:04 PM
Skyscraper City is an interesting site for those who do not know it.

The Coface Arena project is an interesting example of modern techniques used in a restricted space and which includes a fair bit of glass and also safe standing:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1631175&page=2

A good site for up to the minute photos of the stadium taken by Palace enthusiasts too!

My apologies to anyone already familiar with the above Site,

Taedry
21-05-2014, 12:13 PM
I think we lease it out as a nightclub atm.

danpalace07
21-05-2014, 12:27 PM
I was wondering if the same thing could be done along the length of the pitch, albeit on a much smaller scale since we have quite a short pitch anyway. Could we remove, say, the first 2 rows of the Holmesdale and move the pitch a few metres in that direction? That would give a little bit more breathing space for the lower tier of the WHL stand which, combined with a slightly steeper incline might be enough to gain a bigger concourse behind it.

That'll go down well...

firesign
21-05-2014, 12:29 PM
Skyscraper City is an interesting site for those who do not know it.

The Coface Arena project is an interesting example of modern techniques used in a restricted space and which includes a fair bit of glass and also safe standing:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1631175&page=2

A good site for up to the minute photos of the stadium taken by Palace enthusiasts too!

My apologies to anyone already familiar with the above Site,

that is a great site - i've looked at it a few times

must confess - my favourite thread on there is the about poor views. hilarious

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=906730

page 15 includes a photo from Selhurst Park

Simmo the Elder
21-05-2014, 12:44 PM
that is a great site - i've looked at it a few times

must confess - my favourite thread on there is the about poor views. hilarious

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=906730

page 15 includes a photo from Selhurst Park
In our defence....that offending "page 15 Selhurst Park pillar" is actually a post/frame of one of the boxes at the back of the stand....unless I am very much mistaken!! The Pillars along the main stand supporting the roof are nowhere near that high up:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1631175

Spanish Dan
21-05-2014, 12:52 PM
That'll go down well...

How would you envisage redeveloping the stadium without forcing existing season ticket holders to move?

EEEEEEagles
21-05-2014, 01:04 PM
Some interesting stuff. I think the reality is that the less elaborate the less cost. Given that the Holmesdale is relatively new, the rest of the ground will be designed around it. I can't see anything other than the lower tier of the Holmesdale being joined to a new AW And Main Stand. The WH build will depend as we have discussed on whether the current terrace will be demolished or not. Having four stands that look like they came from different planets cannot continue. It looks awful.

Norwich_Eagle
21-05-2014, 01:15 PM
I think it only looks awful because they are so obviously different and from different time frames - feel free to correct me on the dates but I think these are right:

1924 Main Stand
1970 Arthur Waite
1980 WHL
1995 Holmesdale

That is a development of 70-odd years so it is no wonder the stadium looks like patchwork. I like the idea of having four separate but new stands, but I can see the economical benefit of having corners filled as well as in terms of building it looks good and can be relatively cost effectively in the grand scheme of things.

EEEEEEagles
21-05-2014, 01:20 PM
I think it only looks awful because they are so obviously different and from different time frames - feel free to correct me on the dates but I think these are right:

1924 Main Stand
1970 Arthur Waite
1980 WHL
1995 Holmesdale

That is a development of 70-odd years so it is no wonder the stadium looks like patchwork. I like the idea of having four separate but new stands, but I can see the economical benefit of having corners filled as well as in terms of building it looks good and can be relatively cost effectively in the grand scheme of things.

You are party correct but remember that the AW was a "temporary" stand and the WH was re designed purely to make way for a supermarket.
It's way past time to put that right.
With SKY money being so great the need for huge stadiums is becoming redundant in financial terms but the club as part of a community should want to get as many fans in the ground as is reasonable. 35k is reasonable for the Premier league.

Norwich_Eagle
21-05-2014, 01:32 PM
Absolutely it is way beyond time to re-develop Selhurst completely agree. Hopefully it can be done in the sense of one season in the Premier League will provide (the majority of) funding towards a new stand.

I would argue though that if done correctly "huge stadiums" will still be very much a big source of income especially with non-matchday activities. Maybe it is not about the exact number of bums on seats but what is available for extra income, especially in London.

EEEEEEagles
21-05-2014, 01:38 PM
Absolutely it is way beyond time to re-develop Selhurst completely agree. Hopefully it can be done in the sense of one season in the Premier League will provide (the majority of) funding towards a new stand.

I would argue though that if done correctly "huge stadiums" will still be very much a big source of income especially with non-matchday activities. Maybe it is not about the exact number of bums on seats but what is available for extra income, especially in London.

Indeed. Revenue streams outside of bums on seats is a big part of modern football but the stadium capacity is less relevant these days.

Dorking .Eagle
21-05-2014, 08:45 PM
Could we remove, say, the first 2 rows of the Holmesdale and move the pitch a few metres in that direction? That would give a little bit more breathing space for the lower tier of the WHL stand which, combined with a slightly steeper incline might be enough to gain a bigger concourse behind it.

Not possible to move the pitch 'a few metres' further towards the Holmesdale Road, because the viewing angles from the Upper Tier wouldn't work. Think QPR where you cannot see the near touchline from the Upper Tier without standing up and leaning forwards!!

Lord Flange
21-05-2014, 09:13 PM
You are party correct but remember that the AW was a "temporary" stand and the WH was re designed purely to make way for a supermarket.
It's way past time to put that right.
With SKY money being so great the need for huge stadiums is becoming redundant in financial terms but the club as part of a community should want to get as many fans in the ground as is reasonable. 35k is reasonable for the Premier league.

Since when was the AW built as a "temporary" stand. I'm sure our former chairman who put his blood sweat and tears into that structure would beg to differ!:eek:

ElwissAtMemphis
21-05-2014, 09:47 PM
I think it only looks awful because they are so obviously different and from different time frames - feel free to correct me on the dates but I think these are right:

1924 Main Stand
1970 Arthur Waite
1980 WHL
1995 Holmesdale

That is a development of 70-odd years so it is no wonder the stadium looks like patchwork. I like the idea of having four separate but new stands, but I can see the economical benefit of having corners filled as well as in terms of building it looks good and can be relatively cost effectively in the grand scheme of things.

Re The Whitehorse Lane End.

It had pretty much been a grass bank since the opening of the ground but when The Arthur Wait Stand was constructed it was modernised and given a 2-tier design similar to The Shelf at White Hart Lane in time for the start of 69/70 when the AW was officially opened in time for our debut in The 1st Division. It remained in that format until the end of 79/80 when work on Sainsburys started in the summer and it was mostly demolished.

At the start of 80/81, all that remained was just the front 10 or so steps of terracing backed by a wooden fence to obscure the building site of the supermarket's construction.

At some time in 83/84 Sainsburys had been completed and that end was reopened as a newly constructed uncovered terrace; basically the same area that is currently seated at that end. It remained like that for about 10 years until the Taylor Report deadlines which we'd been procrastinating over became unavoidable.

Work on the executive boxes above the terrace was scheduled to be finished in time for the start of 91/92. We were supposed to start that season with a home match against future champions Leeds but that had to be postponed because the incomplete work was deemed to have left the ground unsafe. There was talk of points being docked but we got away with it although our reputation for doing things on the cheap persisted.

The terrace was finally seated with the completed 'executive' boxes above in time for the start of 93/94 and it has remained pretty much the same ever since.

I think that's mostly correct but I've possibly got a couple of details wrong. I'd be interested to hear any corrections.

StanFX
21-05-2014, 10:39 PM
RCD Espanyol, Estadi Cornellà-El Prat - 40,500 seats.

I think this comes close to a design that could be developed into SP.
Enclose the 4 outsides of the roof to keep the sound within the stadium.
The fans are kept close to the pitch, which I think is very important.

Here are a couple of pics, just Google it for more info.

http://es.ziogiorgio.com/images/2009/earpro_espanyol.jpg

http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/gallery/cornellaelprat/cornellaelprat2.jpg

gadford4th
21-05-2014, 10:50 PM
RCD Espanyol, Estadi Cornellà-El Prat - 40,500 seats.

I think this comes close to a design that could be developed into SP.
Enclose the 4 outsides of the roof to keep the sound within the stadium.
The fans are kept close to the pitch, which I think is very important.

Here are a couple of pics, just Google it for more info.

http://es.ziogiorgio.com/images/2009/earpro_espanyol.jpg

http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/gallery/cornellaelprat/cornellaelprat2.jpg

Is that solar panelling on the roof? :love::love:

Pat of the Palace
21-05-2014, 11:02 PM
Is that solar panelling on the roof? :love::love:

Yes, very common out here. A lot of factories have it on the roof. There were big subsidies for a while, dunno what the score is now.

As an aside, there is a great 50's diner in the shopping centre attached to the stadium if anyone goes to visit the stadium.

Funk Butter
21-05-2014, 11:24 PM
So what are these open spaces that look like they could fit a stadium?

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/485633_10152130634370787_2228407542434960634_n.jpg

GorBlimey
22-05-2014, 12:28 AM
So what are these open spaces that look like they could fit a stadium?

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/485633_10152130634370787_2228407542434960634_n.jpg

That is a brilliant picture. You can see where the old Nest was in relation to Selhurst Park.

There is nowhere to relocate the stadium. It has got to be a re-build and re-furb stand by stand. Nothing else makes financial or practical sense in the short term IMHO.

Dorking .Eagle
22-05-2014, 04:22 AM
Re The Whitehorse Lane End.

It had pretty much been a grass bank since the opening of the ground but when The Arthur Wait Stand was constructed it was modernised and given a 2-tier design similar to The Shelf at White Hart Lane in time for the start of 69/70 when the AW was officially opened in time for our debut in The 1st Division. It remained in that format until the end of 79/80 when work on Sainsburys started in the summer and it was mostly demolished.

At the start of 80/81, all that remained was just the front 10 or so steps of terracing backed by a wooden fence to obscure the building site of the supermarket's construction.

At some time in 83/84 Sainsburys had been completed and that end was reopened as a newly constructed uncovered terrace; basically the same area that is currently seated at that end. It remained like that for about 10 years until the Taylor Report deadlines which we'd been procrastinating over became unavoidable.

Work on the executive boxes above the terrace was scheduled to be finished in time for the start of 91/92. We were supposed to start that season with a home match against future champions Leeds but that had to be postponed because the incomplete work was deemed to have left the ground unsafe. There was talk of points being docked but we got away with it although our reputation for doing things on the cheap persisted.

The terrace was finally seated with the completed 'executive' boxes above in time for the start of 93/94 and it has remained pretty much the same ever since.

I think that's mostly correct but I've possibly got a couple of details wrong. I'd be interested to hear any corrections.

Pretty much spot on. The Whitehorse has essentially evolved since Sainsbury's came. The terrace which opened circa 83/84 was actually not even as wide as the pitch and there was a floodlight at each end. It was widened at each end (into the space where the floodlights stood) a year before it was converted to seating. The seats were added in the summer of 1993 as you say and also that summer came the roof over the top which meant the old 'pylon' floodlights at that end could go as the current floodlights at that end were formed out of the 'goalpost' roof structure.

Noades' original electronic scoreboard went on the front of the roof, and Jordan replaced it with the current screen circa 2000

Re the Leeds postponement on the opening day - Noades claimed he had specifically requested we start the season away, however the fixtures man/League gave us Leeds at home, and the police wouldn't allow the game to go ahead mainly due to the piles of rubble in the car park (basically the club car park had been a very rough ground car park ever since the girls school went, and Noades had it done properly with drainage, lighting and a fenced ball court in the middle etc (essentially what you see now minus the fenced ball court). Leeds had only a few years before had a massive riot on a hot day at Bournemouth's car park which was concern enough to call it off.

The boxes were built slowly through 91/92 and it wasn't an issue that they weren't done in one go as it was in space that fans couldn't get to (Sainsburys roof).

steve hail
22-05-2014, 07:18 AM
Rebuild the ground. Meanwhile, play all home games in Adelaide, South Australia. The Adelaide Oval will easily hold a big crowd. You are all welcome each week.

SEEPEEEFFSEE
22-05-2014, 07:44 AM
So what are these open spaces that look like they could fit a stadium?

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/485633_10152130634370787_2228407542434960634_n.jpg

Seeing that photo reinforces just how much space the Sainsbury's car park takes up. For anyone who knows the area, the new massive Sainsbury's in Rustington just along from Worthing has effectively been built on stilts which has provided the parking underneath it. With space at such a premium if something like this could be agreed with Sainsbury's, it could be superb and give us the space need to build something special.

Nigelbrag
22-05-2014, 07:51 AM
RCD Espanyol, Estadi Cornellà-El Prat - 40,500 seats.

I think this comes close to a design that could be developed into SP.
Enclose the 4 outsides of the roof to keep the sound within the stadium.
The fans are kept close to the pitch, which I think is very important.

Here are a couple of pics, just Google it for more info.

http://es.ziogiorgio.com/images/2009/earpro_espanyol.jpg

http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/gallery/cornellaelprat/cornellaelprat2.jpg

Absolutely stunning a true football stadium design, capacity is perfect for our needs, close to the action and fully enclosed that would create an incredible atmosphere. Can you visualise that stadium in the setting of CP park? unbelievable, if only it was possible.

Norwich_Eagle
22-05-2014, 08:10 AM
Those "big open spaces" aren't really practical.

Grangewood Park - in terms of car parking and public transport it would be a step backwards.

Thornton Heath is half a mile away
Selhurst is a mile away
Norwood Junction is a mile and a half away

The space would be there but there would be absolute up-roar turning that area into a football stadium I suspect.

Leitrim Park is far too small and would suffer from similar problems in terms of parking and public transport.

Heavers Meadow in terms of space would be fine as the stadium could back onto Norbury Brook at the bottom, road access could be improved from Selhurst Road and Tennison Road but there is no way that the council is going to dredge this and allow a stadium to be built on it. In terms of car parking there is enough space to add this no problem. Public transport options:

Selhurst, obviously next door
Norwood Junction - half a mile walk down Selhurst Road
Even Arena/Blackhorse Lane/Woodside/West Croydon tram stops are 1.5 miles away - with a possible extension to the tram route that would be very attractive but again not going to happen.

South Norwood Recreation Park - I suspect would be too small to build a stadium and car park without some clever underground/multi-storey car park being built and obviously has good public transport links already

South Norwood (Cricket) Grounds and Lakes Not a chance of building there, nature protection, odd ground terrain etc. etc.

The other option again would be Arena I guess if we are looking at "open spaces" in the area. Norwood Junction is less than a mile walk, the four tram stations you could use are there and plenty of space for car parking.

Norwich_Eagle
22-05-2014, 08:23 AM
Seeing that photo reinforces just how much space the Sainsbury's car park takes up. For anyone who knows the area, the new massive Sainsbury's in Rustington just along from Worthing has effectively been built on stilts which has provided the parking underneath it. With space at such a premium if something like this could be agreed with Sainsbury's, it could be superb and give us the space need to build something special.

http://www.barr-construction.co.uk/_galleries/sainsburys-rustington/

Gallery from the construction company

SEEPEEEFFSEE
22-05-2014, 08:33 AM
http://www.barr-construction.co.uk/_galleries/sainsburys-rustington/

Gallery from the construction company

Yeah, that's it. Nice one! :p

EEEEEEagles
22-05-2014, 10:13 AM
Absolutely stunning a true football stadium design, capacity is perfect for our needs, close to the action and fully enclosed that would create an incredible atmosphere. Can you visualise that stadium in the setting of CP park? unbelievable, if only it was possible.

Nice stadium. If that were the WH at the far end and the Holmesdale remained the same it could work but two tier stands either side would offer little or no extra capacity that one tier. To join the Holmesdale upper and lower tier to the rest of the ground would make the stands very high and the capacity enormous. That will not happen I sure. 35k only requires an enlarged WH and 2 new single tier stands with the corners filled in.

Norwich_Eagle
22-05-2014, 10:25 AM
See picture attached - easily enough room for a Sainsburys - same size as Rustington - with the car parking in the area that is currently the Sainsburys and Directors Car Park. This would give Sainsburys a new bigger store, the car park would be different but hopefully just as many if not more spots would be available and it would give the room needed for the expansion of the Main Stand and White Horse Lane Stand.

Does anyone know how many car parking spots that new Sainsburys has?

SEEPEEEFFSEE
22-05-2014, 10:52 AM
Great work NE! The sainsburys website says 551 spaces

Norwich_Eagle
22-05-2014, 11:33 AM
Okay, there are roughly 550 spaces in both the current Sainsburys and Directors Car Park, so actually if you could position it so that you retained 100-200 spaces in the Directors Car Park and then added on 550-600 spaces with the re-designed Sainsburys you would end up with exactly or a few more which is excellent.

I reckon that can be done quite easily in the grand scheme of things.

art malice
22-05-2014, 11:42 AM
Not possible to move the pitch 'a few metres' further towards the Holmesdale Road, because the viewing angles from the Upper Tier wouldn't work. Think QPR where you cannot see the near touchline from the Upper Tier without standing up and leaning forwards!!

And the old Plough Lane. We couldn't see any of Wright's hat-trick hit the back of the net.

art malice
22-05-2014, 11:44 AM
So what are these open spaces that look like they could fit a stadium?

https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/485633_10152130634370787_2228407542434960634_n.jpg

Great picture

elgin eagle
22-05-2014, 01:00 PM
Rebuild the ground. Meanwhile, play all home games in Adelaide, South Australia. The Adelaide Oval will easily hold a big crowd. You are all welcome each week.

Steve, can you pm me pls mate. I tried pm'ing you but it didn't work. Its not about groundsharing though :)

elgin eagle
22-05-2014, 01:03 PM
Those "big open spaces" aren't really practical.

Grangewood Park - in terms of car parking and public transport it would be a step backwards.

Thornton Heath is half a mile away
Selhurst is a mile away
Norwood Junction is a mile and a half away

The space would be there but there would be absolute up-roar turning that area into a football stadium I suspect.

Leitrim Park is far too small and would suffer from similar problems in terms of parking and public transport.

Heavers Meadow in terms of space would be fine as the stadium could back onto Norbury Brook at the bottom, road access could be improved from Selhurst Road and Tennison Road but there is no way that the council is going to dredge this and allow a stadium to be built on it. In terms of car parking there is enough space to add this no problem. Public transport options:

Selhurst, obviously next door
Norwood Junction - half a mile walk down Selhurst Road
Even Arena/Blackhorse Lane/Woodside/West Croydon tram stops are 1.5 miles away - with a possible extension to the tram route that would be very attractive but again not going to happen.

South Norwood Recreation Park - I suspect would be too small to build a stadium and car park without some clever underground/multi-storey car park being built and obviously has good public transport links already

South Norwood (Cricket) Grounds and Lakes Not a chance of building there, nature protection, odd ground terrain etc. etc.

The other option again would be Arena I guess if we are looking at "open spaces" in the area. Norwood Junction is less than a mile walk, the four tram stations you could use are there and plenty of space for car parking.

I would think only South Norwood Rec would be brownfield enough to get permission, and a railway line would have to be moved first as well.

the drexciyan
22-05-2014, 01:09 PM
I do love a bit of newstadiumporn. :)

I think Selhurst Park could finish up like this:

- A continuous lower tier bowl all around all 4 stands and infilling the corners.

- The Holmesdale as is

- The AW rebuilt with a new roof, extending the single tier back to as far as possible, rebuilt on a slightly steeper rake to match the LH and the slope dug out to continue the concourse round from the LH.

- A rebuilt 2 tier Whitehorse, with the second tier as far as possible matching the Holmesdale, and lower tier concourse extending round.

- A rebuilt main stand with 2 stories of executive boxes and an upper tier on top.

- The rooves of the WH, Main stand to be the same height, the Holmesdale will stick out but with a longer term plan to rebuild the roof to the same height as the other 2 stands, when funds allow for the structural works to happen.

- All upper tier corners infilled at the sides to keep the sound in, like you see at a lot of grounds, ie west brom.

That would give a modern ground but with preserving the real character of the place. If i was any decent in photoshop i'd mock up an image of that, I'll ask someone.

Billyd
22-05-2014, 01:14 PM
The one and only thing I get from that football is how ******* stupid it was to allow those houses behind the Main Stand. The Sainsburys car park is huge and must be worth millions in terms of real estate.

Some sort of joint development/sponsorship with Sainsburys is surely the way round all this? If only those sodding houses werent built there....

JDawg
22-05-2014, 01:35 PM
In need of a tidy up and per various podcasts, 2010 are sympathetic to keeping the atmosphere.

Difficult one though. This season it was painful trying to get a second seat of pairs of tickets in the HU but the PL was a new thing. I guess we see if this continues into season two. Given this and say 24,000 crowds last term I think the maximum would be 30,000. Too much else going on or other PL clubs in striking distence.

If we don't stay up we won't fill our current capacity.

Resources are scarce so how to you split between the ground and the team.

Twist or stick?

Pub Idol
22-05-2014, 01:38 PM
The one and only thing I get from that football is how ******* stupid it was to allow those houses behind the Main Stand. The Sainsburys car park is huge and must be worth millions in terms of real estate.

Some sort of joint development/sponsorship with Sainsburys is surely the way round all this? If only those sodding houses werent built there....

Did Ron sell the land ? TBF we have had so many financial hardships in the last 35 years that it was inevitable we would cash in where possible. Don't forget in the early 80's we were in a terrible state.

Agreed though - Bloye also stitched the club up no end.

Pub Idol
22-05-2014, 01:40 PM
Would really love Steve P to come on and give us an update of whats gonna happen. Or at least here of something in the pipeline.

PalaceBhoy
22-05-2014, 01:56 PM
Would really love Steve P to come on and give us an update of whats gonna happen. Or at least here of something in the pipeline.

I have got a good feeling that exciting plans are developing in the background.

Tony Montana
22-05-2014, 02:17 PM
I promise you this, we will be playing in the Sainsburys stadium before long. Sometimes you have to sell your soul to the devil....

Billyd
22-05-2014, 02:20 PM
I promise you this, we will be playing in the Sainsburys stadium before long. Sometimes you have to sell your soul to the devil....

If it means I can see the pitch from the Arthur and god forbid go for a piss at half then **** it, so be it.

Simmo the Elder
22-05-2014, 02:21 PM
Poppycock.

ebyeeckeagle
22-05-2014, 02:27 PM
If it means I can see the pitch from the Arthur and god forbid go for a piss at half then **** it, so be it.

And we will just carry on calling it Selhurst.

HorleyStu
22-05-2014, 03:11 PM
I have got a good feeling that exciting plans are developing in the background.

source ?

Scrumpy
22-05-2014, 03:28 PM
I have got a good feeling that exciting plans are developing in the background.

Isn't that a song by Black Eyed Peas?

palacea
22-05-2014, 03:32 PM
source ?

Mr Deluded

MasterYoda
22-05-2014, 04:11 PM
Come grounds share on Cardiff. They're a championship club so could do with the money, have a stadium that is now too big for them And a nice mix of red and blue seats :)

Sure Tan would love to have us.

Norwich_Eagle
22-05-2014, 04:26 PM
If it means I can see the pitch from the Arthur and god forbid go for a piss at half then **** it, so be it.

Don't ask for much do you lol? :p

the drexciyan
22-05-2014, 04:41 PM
Come grounds share on Cardiff. They're a championship club so could do with the money, have a stadium that is now too big for them And a nice mix of red and blue seats :)

Sure Tan would love to have us.

Enjoy your 33k seats in the championship, tossers :hi:

anti-addick
22-05-2014, 05:05 PM
PLR

elgin eagle
22-05-2014, 05:23 PM
I have got a good feeling that exciting plans are developing in the background.

Is the holmesdale basement going to be the new sainsburys? Is the undersoil heating just a front for an under pitch store?

Have you just got a feeling or something more concrete? :)

Norwich_Eagle
22-05-2014, 05:29 PM
I doubt an awful lot will be announced until it is really very concrete plans. The "announcement" of the CPP plans were basically to stop Tottenham getting the Olympic Stadium and wanted to re-develop the park for Athletics.

Had Spurs not wanted to go for the Olympics Stadium I doubt those plans would have been "announced" and we wouldn't be hoping/wanting/expecting information quite like we are now.

Billy Rhino
22-05-2014, 06:16 PM
The one and only thing I get from that football is how ******* stupid it was to allow those houses behind the Main Stand. The Sainsburys car park is huge and must be worth millions in terms of real estate.

Some sort of joint development/sponsorship with Sainsburys is surely the way round all this? If only those sodding houses werent built there....

Yep, Norwich Eagle's picture illustrates the point perfectly how bloody annoying and unnecessary those 4 houses in Wooderson Close are (in that they could easily have been built elsewhere e.g. where the trees are).

http://www.cpfc.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=41872&d=1400665235

The obvious solution to our problems is to co-operate with Sainsburys, as they have both the financial clout and solicitors well rehearsed in getting planning permission for these sorts of developments. Main issue will be usage on matchdays, as I'm sure they wont want their new multi-million pound store closed on a Saturday.

Billy Rhino
22-05-2014, 06:37 PM
What I mean re those houses is they could easily have been built facing the other houses in Wooderson Close and further away from the Main stand. Surely us and Sainsburys could rebuild them along with a sweetener to seal the deal?

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Aerial-Photograph-of-Selhurst-Park-London-/03/!B595ek!!mk~$(KGrHqQOKjIEyOiF3Iy6BMvsSV0tSQ~~_12.J PG

Thefunkymonk
22-05-2014, 06:47 PM
Sainsburys will be the key to the whole redevelopment... Get them on board we'll have a lot more weight behind us regarding planning especially whitehorse. The real problem is those 4 houses when the main stand gets done.. Think the only option would be CPO or we pay them a large amount of compo.

Simmo the Elder
22-05-2014, 07:26 PM
An additional tiers, if you like, of the new main stand would not necessarily have to run the whole length of the current stand, to clash with those houses, i.e. it could stop at where the houses start. Villa's trinity road stand is kind of an example:

http://astonvillausa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/trinitytoday.jpg

More good views and angles can be found here, yes those houses used to drive me barmy but after finding more photos and different views I'll think we'll hopefully be alright Palace fans:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1631175&page=3

Wycombe Eagle#2
22-05-2014, 07:51 PM
Is it those 4 houses being the cause of one of the main problems and are they more flats or houses with gardens etc?

Could the problem not be resolved by somehow cleverly building pent house style apartments or something like that within in the new stand with pitch views. Give the owners of those 4 house spanking new apartments and use the rest as hotel rooms or just sell them off and hey presto.

Thefunkymonk
22-05-2014, 07:59 PM
Is it those 4 houses being the cause of one of the main problems and are they more flats or houses with gardens etc?

Could the problem not be resolved by somehow cleverly building pent house style apartments or something like that within in the new stand with pitch views. Give the owners of those 4 house spanking new apartments and use the rest as hotel rooms or just sell them off and hey presto.

Agree with this.. Dangle a little bit of compo for the inconvenience plus new apartment job done you would hope!

AJ
22-05-2014, 08:04 PM
I

Resources are scarce so how to you split between the ground and the team.

Twist or stick?


Not really, 73m last season, plus a minimum of 63m next season, plus a minimum of a further 60m over the subsequent 4 years. That is a minimum of 196m over 6 years. That doesn't include any sponsorship, gate receipts, merchandize, transfers and a possible 2m from the fine applied to Man City for the FPP breach. And that's minimum! For every additional season in the premiership, add 65m+ to those numbers.

In all fairness that is a lot of money!

the drexciyan
22-05-2014, 08:24 PM
Sainsburys will be the key to the whole redevelopment... Get them on board we'll have a lot more weight behind us regarding planning especially whitehorse. The real problem is those 4 houses when the main stand gets done.. Think the only option would be CPO or we pay them a large amount of compo.

It would be prudent on the clubs part to be in the market if as and when those 4 houses ever come onto the market. Its not a Liverpool-type situation with tens of houses where they stealthily purchased them until only a few diehards were left to fight the club. Its 4 houses, and even if we double their money its around 2 million we're looking at to reverse a massive error made in the past. Not sure about the in and outs of a CPO but that would presumably be a lot smoother as its only 4 we're talking about.

dave_who_ru
22-05-2014, 08:32 PM
Would really love Steve P to come on and give us an update of whats gonna happen. Or at least here of something in the pipeline.

He did on Holmesdale radio in April. When we start it will be the Sainsbury's end.

elgin eagle
22-05-2014, 08:36 PM
It would be prudent on the clubs part to be in the market if as and when those 4 houses ever come onto the market. Its not a Liverpool-type situation with tens of houses where they stealthily purchased them until only a few diehards were left to fight the club. Its 4 houses, and even if we double their money its around 2 million we're looking at to reverse a massive error made in the past. Not sure about the in and outs of a CPO but that would presumably be a lot smoother as its only 4 we're talking about.

Are those houses privately owned then? I dunno why, but i always imagined that whole little estate was housing association for some reason.

winston the dog
22-05-2014, 08:47 PM
Are those houses privately owned then? I dunno why, but i always imagined that whole little estate was housing association for some reason.

I think they're council houses aren't they?

elgin eagle
22-05-2014, 08:58 PM
I think they're council houses aren't they?

If they are, would it make it easier to harder to acquire them in order to knock them down or convert into administrative buildings or something? There certainly wouldn't be a lot of light for them :)

firesign
22-05-2014, 09:14 PM
If they are council or HA owned you just need to offer them enough money to build eight new homes. I'd be surprised if an offer like that would be turned down.

gadford4th
22-05-2014, 09:45 PM
Those 4 houses wont be a problem. Compulsory Purchase Order if they're privately owned, or an easy deal with the council if they're council houses.

the drexciyan
22-05-2014, 09:48 PM
Are those houses privately owned then? I dunno why, but i always imagined that whole little estate was housing association for some reason.

Good point, I always assumed they'd been brought off the council but if they are still in council hands it may make things a bit more straightforward for a purchase.

Night Eagle
22-05-2014, 10:40 PM
Great picture


Looking at that picture why don't we just rotate the ground/pitch and develop into the car park?

gadford4th
22-05-2014, 11:48 PM
nNSt5Lqz00M

:sob:

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 09:13 AM
There will be no ridiculously elaborate schemes.
My best guess is that we will build a tier on the WH leaving the boxes underneath and then when the new Main Stand is complete with new boxes the WH boxes will be removed and the existing terrace extended backward to mirror the Holmesdale. The corners between the MS, Holmesdale and WH will be filled in leaving the AW to be rebuilt in a later phase.

the drexciyan
23-05-2014, 09:20 AM
There will be no ridiculously elaborate schemes.
My best guess is that we will build a tier on the WH leaving the boxes underneath and then when the new Main Stand is complete with new boxes the WH boxes will be removed and the existing terrace extended backward to mirror the Holmesdale. The corners between the MS, Holmesdale and WH will be filled in leaving the AW to be rebuilt in a later phase.

Which proposed scheme or schemes are you passing judgement on as being ridiculously elaborate? Its all ideas at the moment, until something is unveiled.

scottjd1
23-05-2014, 09:21 AM
I do think the club are missing a trick, I understand the reluctance to reveal any plans before they are all agreed, but there is so much goodwill and enthusiasm about the club at the moment, more than I can ever recall.

To give us a taste of what they have in mind would go a long way in enhancing this feel good factor and I think everyone would realise that they are just that .. 'plans'.

CaterhamEagle
23-05-2014, 09:28 AM
I do think the club are missing a trick, I understand the reluctance to reveal any plans before they are all agreed, but there is so much goodwill and enthusiasm about the club at the moment, more than I can ever recall.

To give us a taste of what they have in mind would go a long way in enhancing this feel good factor and I think everyone would realise that they are just that .. 'plans'.

People will get carried away, and there would be nothing worse than revealing plans only to then have them blocked/found to be impossible.

Better to make sure it can be achieved and to get the permission, so that it can be realistic and concrete plans when released.

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 09:33 AM
Which proposed scheme or schemes are you passing judgement on as being ridiculously elaborate? Its all ideas at the moment, until something is unveiled.
Pitch rotating and stadiums that rival the Nou Camp. The new Sainsbury's store thing is anyone's guess.
I'm just predicting in an attempt to look clever later on. ;)

Billy Rhino
23-05-2014, 09:35 AM
The current capacity of the WH is about 2,250 so you would need to build a 2nd tier with a near 6,000 capacity and looking at it it's hard to see how.

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/incoming/article445139.ece/ALTERNATES/gallery-large/Selhurst-Park-aerial-general-cropped
http://spursstatman.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/eng-london-selhurst-park-2.jpg

The roof behind the Whitehorse end where the 2nd tier would go appears to have a load of air-conditioning units that I'm guessing are essential to the current Sainsburys building. What would happen to them?

I wouldn't be surprised if Sainsburys start building their new store in the car park before we build a 2nd tier due to this.

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 09:48 AM
Well it's hard to say. I'd guess that it will either be above those vents or they will be moved or re directed somehow. It's all technical stuff that one can only guess at. It depends I suppose on how high and how cleverly designed that tier is.

dim
23-05-2014, 10:00 AM
Are those houses privately owned then? I dunno why, but i always imagined that whole little estate was housing association for some reason.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=13684120&sale=29585936&country=england

I think this is one of the four........

CommercialStone
23-05-2014, 10:06 AM
I hate that exclamation mark at the end of Eagles on the Homesdale seats. If we could remove that, that's good enough for me

Pub Idol
23-05-2014, 10:07 AM
He did on Holmesdale radio in April. When we start it will be the Sainsbury's end.

He didn't say much - Lacking details etc. I know these things can be hush hush but its been four years and still nothing much seems to be happening.

Billingshurst
23-05-2014, 10:51 AM
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=13684120&sale=29585936&country=england

I think this is one of the four........
Should the club buy it in anticipation of future development?
It could be rented out to provide income against the investment until then.

Dom the Eagle
23-05-2014, 11:00 AM
I'd imagine the Whitehorse could look something like this.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6125/5998775794_f3082b16be_z.jpg

nicknackpalace
23-05-2014, 11:24 AM
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=13684120&sale=29585936&country=england

I think this is one of the four........

I'm not sure that site says its for sale -just giving the last land registry sold price details

CPFC_Fan
23-05-2014, 11:26 AM
I'd imagine the Whitehorse could look something like this.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6125/5998775794_f3082b16be_z.jpg

Good call there mate. Wouldn't be too dissimilar.

East-End Eagle
23-05-2014, 11:53 AM
From memory Forest did really well there, you think our space is restricted? any further back and they are in the Trent!

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 11:59 AM
Like I said a few posts back, the upper tier could be built with the boxes still in place and they could be removed to increase the size of the lower tier later on.

It would be a pity if we didn't tidy up the ground by eventually making all the lower tier the same and joined up

OakwoodEagle
23-05-2014, 12:14 PM
Like I said a few posts back, the upper tier could be built with the boxes still in place and they could be removed to increase the size of the lower tier later on.

It would be a pity if we didn't tidy up the ground by eventually making all the lower tier the same and joined up

Like a big soulless bowl? You'd be happy with that?

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 12:22 PM
Like a big soulless bowl? You'd be happy with that?

It would be nothing of the sort. The soulless bowl cliche is getting very old.

Firstly it cant be a bowl with two tiers at both ends and secondly 30k of our fans will be anything but soulless if it's like this season. What makes "soulless" is spoilt fans who expect to win every week.

How can joining up a lower tier make it soulless.
Please !

anti-addick
23-05-2014, 01:19 PM
I hate that exclamation mark at the end of Eagles on the Homesdale seats. If we could remove that, that's good enough for me

Yup. Should have a club crest or eagle.

anti-addick
23-05-2014, 01:22 PM
Like a big soulless bowl? You'd be happy with that?

I think you misunderstand 'souless bowl'. That refers to new builds, not stands and seats in an update to the existing stadium. The reason they become souless is because people move seats when they move and new fans come in, then the singing stops. Keep the same ground and you won't lose the atmosphere.

Dave
23-05-2014, 01:27 PM
http://i.imgflip.com/917ob.jpg

Billy Rhino
23-05-2014, 01:43 PM
Like I said a few posts back, the upper tier could be built with the boxes still in place and they could be removed to increase the size of the lower tier later on.

It would be a pity if we didn't tidy up the ground by eventually making all the lower tier the same and joined up

I still cant see how a 2nd tier could possibly go on top of the current boxes, as others have said you just wouldn't be able to see the nearest goal. At the very least you would have to remove the top row of exec boxes.

http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/uploads/selhurstpark_front.jpg

unsensibleLiam
23-05-2014, 01:51 PM
gotta knock the whitehorse down surely and start again? awful stand

Billy Rhino
23-05-2014, 02:06 PM
gotta knock the whitehorse down surely and start again? awful stand

The back wall is part of Sainsburys. The Whitehorse stand is fine for watching football, it's only the limited space behind for facilities that is an issue.

If we could fit in a 2nd tier like the Trent stand with a 5,000+ capacity first then we really should rebuild the AW with exec boxes before doing the Main stand, otherwise the ground facilities will be non-existent when the Main stand is rebuilt. One season with a capacity of 19,000 is a price worth paying, especially as most of our income is TV money.

Lord Flange
23-05-2014, 02:06 PM
We really have been speculating for years on this.

Come on Parish throw us a frigging bone, even an indication of when something might happen would be something new.

I can understand commercial sensitivities to a point, but the length of time we really haven't been told anything remotely substantive is poor PR in my opinion.

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 02:31 PM
I still cant see how a 2nd tier could possibly go on top of the current boxes, as others have said you just wouldn't be able to see the nearest goal. At the very least you would have to remove the top row of exec boxes.

http://www.stadiumguide.com/wp-content/uploads/selhurstpark_front.jpg

I suppose it depends how steep and how set back it is. If it was similar to the Holmesdale, that would work wouldn't it. We need an architect to give us some technical info. I am assuming that any expansion of the lower tier will be underneath the top tier where the boxes now sit. Not easy to guess just looking at pictures.

41882

Norwich_Eagle
23-05-2014, 03:33 PM
Sainsburys build a new store in the car park
We knock down the current Sainsburys building/Crystals/Club Shop/Ticket Office
We build the upper tier of the Whitehorse without having to close what is current there
Make any changes to the lower tier (what is currently there) that are needed
Re-build the Main Stand
Re-build the Arthur
Fill in the corners

EEEEEEagles
23-05-2014, 03:48 PM
Sainsburys build a new store in the car park
We knock down the current Sainsburys building/Crystals/Club Shop/Ticket Office
We build the upper tier of the Whitehorse without having to close what is current there
Make any changes to the lower tier (what is currently there) that are needed
Re-build the Main Stand
Re-build the Arthur
Fill in the corners
Essentially what I said a few posts back. I'm not sure we will need to knock down Sainsbury's first though. There might be a problem getting stuff in and out though.
First phase, upper tier on WH.
Second phase, rebuild MS with boxes
Third phase, remove WH boxes and enlarge lower tier.
Forth phase, fill in corners with Holmesdale, WH and MS
Fifth phase, rebuild AW and fill in other corners.
Sixth phase, replace Holmesdale roof to match the rest.

Sorted.

elgin eagle
23-05-2014, 04:23 PM
We really have been speculating for years on this.

Come on Parish throw us a frigging bone, even an indication of when something might happen would be something new.

I can understand commercial sensitivities to a point, but the length of time we really haven't been told anything remotely substantive is poor PR in my opinion.

Well he said this, this time last year. I don't know how much work has been going on behind the scenes, but i understand that these things take time. I get that CPP is/was definitely his first choice though, so to rebuild selhurst in such a way so it will be as good a location and a stadium as the one he envisaged for the one in the park will take some doing. Or not, if he can find as good a site nearby.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/crystal-palace-selhurst-park-set-for-a-40000-makeover-8635930.html
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crystal+palace+park+stadium&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qHR_U7_GA4LEOZWygMAK&ved=0CDwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=929

SilentAssassin
23-05-2014, 04:44 PM
What about the houses by the players entrance. Personally I think any work that is to be done on the Main Stand/Corner of Holmesdale and Main Stand hangs on whether we can acquire or with help from the council find residents an equal or better homes in the area.

If I was looking to rebuild the stands surely that would be first priority as opposed to the Whitehorse and whatever relocation of Sainsbury can be mooted as the timescale of resolving any issues with the houses could take some time.

Percy Dalton
23-05-2014, 05:00 PM
If I recall correctly when the Whitehorse stand was built the foundations were laid so that a second tier could be added at a future date. This being the case adding another tier should not be an issue. I also seem to recall the reason for not having a second tier at the time was they needed a place for the exec boxes until the main stand was re built. That was 20 years ago when the redevlopment of Selhurst was on going and not yet held up by two consecutive terms of owners who almost broke the club and Selhurst went into steep decline.

Norwich_Eagle
23-05-2014, 05:01 PM
What about the houses by the players entrance. Personally I think any work that is to be done on the Main Stand/Corner of Holmesdale and Main Stand hangs on whether we can acquire or with help from the council find residents an equal or better homes in the area.

If I was looking to rebuild the stands surely that would be first priority as opposed to the Whitehorse and whatever relocation of Sainsbury can be mooted as the timescale of resolving any issues with the houses could take some time.

Surely you could do both at the same time - so re-build the WHL and Sainsburys as a separate project to the acquisition of any housing properties behind the Main Stand. By the time you have improved the WHL then you should know where you stand with the Main Stand and any houses that may or may not be behind it still.

GorBlimey
23-05-2014, 06:58 PM
If we're talking about compulsory purchase of dwellings, there's a whole row of houses on Whitehorse Lane between the filling station and Clifton Road that occupy a relatively large amount of land, which could be acquired and used for the redevelopment. It could make a massive Sainsbury's, leaving the old store for redevelopment of the stand and, (with apologies to anyone living in those houses), improve the aesthetics of the area.

Billyd
23-05-2014, 07:14 PM
Sainsburys wont purchase any houses/land etc. They already have tons of room in an 95% empty car park...

Dorking .Eagle
23-05-2014, 07:41 PM
If we're talking about compulsory purchase of dwellings, there's a whole row of houses on Whitehorse Lane between the filling station and Clifton Road that occupy a relatively large amount of land, which could be acquired and used for the redevelopment. .

Simon Jordan's dad, Peter lives in one of those :D

GorBlimey
23-05-2014, 07:51 PM
Sainsburys wont purchase any houses/land etc. They already have tons of room in an 95% empty car park...

I never shop there but are you saying that the car park is 95% empty when the store is open?

thereichstuff
23-05-2014, 08:00 PM
Simon Jordan's dad, Peter lives in one of those :D

I'm sure he would sell to cpfc2010 ;)

LeeH
23-05-2014, 08:19 PM
I could see something like a temporary exec box area in the corner between main stand and WH a la that thing in the corner at Watford, this would give the option to develop the WH with no exec boxes and if done correctly would still allow proper access in and out of the stadium.

Jack Regan
23-05-2014, 08:43 PM
Since when was the AW built as a "temporary" stand. I'm sure our former chairman who put his blood sweat and tears into that structure would beg to differ!:eek:

In his programme notes, Arthur Wait said he was inspecting the stand when it was being built and one of the builders called him 'mate'. He went on to say that he was proud to call the builders of that stand (the New Stand) his 'mates'

Billyd
23-05-2014, 08:51 PM
I never shop there but are you saying that the car park is 95% empty when the store is open?

Yeap. Rarely gets full.

The houses behind the Main Stand is the issue. But between Palace and Sainsburys they own a lot of land and a shop and ground that need updating.

Rob Harmer
23-05-2014, 09:34 PM
Is it not possible that Sainsbury's would rather move to a better site. How much is the site worth? Just a thought

PalaceBhoy
23-05-2014, 10:15 PM
If we're talking about compulsory purchase of dwellings, there's a whole row of houses on Whitehorse Lane between the filling station and Clifton Road that occupy a relatively large amount of land, which could be acquired and used for the redevelopment. It could make a massive Sainsbury's, leaving the old store for redevelopment of the stand and, (with apologies to anyone living in those houses), improve the aesthetics of the area.

I very much doubt Croydon Council would approve the powers required to issue CPOs? They are issued on the basis that the work being carried out is for public betterment. I don't really see that the development of Selhurst Park would fall under that criteria, especially as Croydon Council don't appear to give a f*ck about CPFC.

GorBlimey
23-05-2014, 10:23 PM
I very much doubt Croydon Council would approve the powers required to issue CPOs? They are issued on the basis that the work being carried out is for public betterment. I don't really see that the development of Selhurst Park would fall under that criteria, seeing as Croydon Council don't give a f*ck about CPFC.

I think you'll find that Croydon Council will be much better disposed to Palace being a long term Premiership team and if Sainsbury's were singing from the same hymn sheet then it's pretty persuasive. Also, what if Sainsbury's were to hint that they'd relocate their Head Office to Croydon if everything works out? Imagine the new signage at East Croydon station - Home of Crystal Palace Football Club and their proud sponsors J Sainsbury PLC.

It's all about the vision.

GorBlimey
23-05-2014, 10:29 PM
Is it not possible that Sainsbury's would rather move to a better site. How much is the site worth? Just a thought

It's worth a f*cking fortune because new planning permissions for massive supermarkets are really not being given any more. It's all about the "metro" size store or clever re-development of their existing estate.

PalaceBhoy
23-05-2014, 10:37 PM
I think you'll find that Croydon Council will be much better disposed to Palace being a long term Premiership team and if Sainsbury's were singing from the same hymn sheet then it's pretty persuasive. Also, what if Sainsbury's were to hint that they'd relocate their Head Office to Croydon if everything works out? Imagine the new signage at East Croydon station - Home of Crystal Palace Football Club and their proud sponsors J Sainsbury PLC.

It's all about the vision.

It's also about realism. We have probably got more chance of moving to the Park than Sainsburys moving their head office from Holborn to Croydon.

hayeseagle38
23-05-2014, 10:38 PM
I thought there were some drawings/plans drawn up a while back. I'm sure someone on here posted that they'd seen these drawings and they were of a glass fronted main stand with people walking by in the mock up.

GorBlimey
23-05-2014, 10:39 PM
Yeap. Rarely gets full.

The houses behind the Main Stand is the issue. But between Palace and Sainsburys they own a lot of land and a shop and ground that need updating.

I can't believe that 'cos if they're not attracting shoppers who buy a car-load of stuff the store will be unprofitable. That location and population is really a prime demographic. They could even become a 24 hour store, if they're not already. I used to do me shopping there many moons ago when we lived in Penge. There wasn't an awful lot of local alternatives in those days.

GorBlimey
23-05-2014, 10:47 PM
It's also about realism. We have probably got more chance of moving to the Park than Sainsburys moving their head office from Holborn to Croydon.

Not if Sainsbury's have Palace as their main sponsorship vehicle. Croydon commercial real estate is a fraction of central London's costs and it's difficult to make a business case to remain in property that is 5 times or more as expensive.

CPP will never happen until road and transport infrastructure improvements take place. Because of the multi, multi millions that will cost, only the new Crystal Palace development by the Chinese will make that happen. If it ever does, CPFC2010 will probably sell to the Chinese and we will join Man City, PSG and the rest! A further thought. If that happened, we'd have the largest supporter base in the world - we'd be the biggest club in the world. Stick that up your a*rse Manchester!

the drexciyan
24-05-2014, 05:28 AM
I very much doubt Croydon Council would approve the powers required to issue CPOs? They are issued on the basis that the work being carried out is for public betterment. I don't really see that the development of Selhurst Park would fall under that criteria, especially as Croydon Council don't appear to give a f*ck about CPFC.

Unless.. the mooted school is part of the scheme and it is sold as a solution to alleviate the chronic shortage of school places in the north of the borough.

I personally think a school, supermarket and football club could co-exist but it would involve digging down and building up a bit more than what we currently see on the site. For a living example look at the old Rockmount infants school site in upper norwood- it used to be very flat, small-scale and single rise buildings, now its a much bigger 2-storey school. Speculation of course, but the delay could be because of balancing the needs of 3 key stakeholders, as opposed to just the club and supermarket, which on paper is a bit more straightforward, with the 4 houses being used as a bargaining chip by the council to ensure their needs are met.

dim
24-05-2014, 06:26 AM
Can't see the Lap Hing owners making a bid at the moment.

Not if Sainsbury's have Palace as their main sponsorship vehicle. Croydon commercial real estate is a fraction of central London's costs and it's difficult to make a business case to remain in property that is 5 times or more as expensive.

CPP will never happen until road and transport infrastructure improvements take place. Because of the multi, multi millions that will cost, only the new Crystal Palace development by the Chinese will make that happen. If it ever does, CPFC2010 will probably sell to the Chinese and we will join Man City, PSG and the rest! A further thought. If that happened, we'd have the largest supporter base in the world - we'd be the biggest club in the world. Stick that up your a*rse Manchester!

bob_h
24-05-2014, 06:41 AM
Not if Sainsbury's have Palace as their main sponsorship vehicle. Croydon commercial real estate is a fraction of central London's costs and it's difficult to make a business case to remain in property that is 5 times or more as expensive.

CPP will never happen until road and transport infrastructure improvements take place. Because of the multi, multi millions that will cost, only the new Crystal Palace development by the Chinese will make that happen. If it ever does, CPFC2010 will probably sell to the Chinese and we will join Man City, PSG and the rest! A further thought. If that happened, we'd have the largest supporter base in the world - we'd be the biggest club in the world. Stick that up your a*rse Manchester!

The reason for it being cheaper in Croydon is that there is less demand, and in any case would not be their main consideration. The 'top suits' like to work in the city where the action is (and the wine bars!).
Mind you it would make the games against the seaweed interesting - them in their Tesco bags and us in our Sainsbury ones! ;)

dim
24-05-2014, 07:11 AM
Has anyone considered purchase of the holy Joe's meadows on Norbury Hill? They are detached from the school and quite a large site.

Nth Kent Eagle
24-05-2014, 07:59 AM
Unless.. the mooted school is part of the scheme and it is sold as a solution to alleviate the chronic shortage of school places in the north of the borough.

I personally think a school, supermarket and football club could co-exist but it would involve digging down and building up a bit more than what we currently see on the site. For a living example look at the old Rockmount infants school site in upper norwood- it used to be very flat, small-scale and single rise buildings, now its a much bigger 2-storey school. Speculation of course, but the delay could be because of balancing the needs of 3 key stakeholders, as opposed to just the club and supermarket, which on paper is a bit more straightforward, with the 4 houses being used as a bargaining chip by the council to ensure their needs are met.

I think I read that Croydon needs to find another 2,800 school places with a particular shortage in the north of the borough. There isn't much free space so that would be logical.

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 04:35 PM
The reason for it being cheaper in Croydon is that there is less demand, and in any case would not be their main consideration. The 'top suits' like to work in the city where the action is (and the wine bars!).


Don't think that that is the case:

http://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/exclusive-sainsburys-staff-sent-to-coventry-as-holborn-hq-is-put-up-to-let-8576753.html

Billy Rhino
24-05-2014, 05:19 PM
I can't believe that 'cos if they're not attracting shoppers who buy a car-load of stuff the store will be unprofitable. That location and population is really a prime demographic. They could even become a 24 hour store, if they're not already. I used to do me shopping there many moons ago when we lived in Penge. There wasn't an awful lot of local alternatives in those days.

I guess the main competitor is the Tescos in Thornton Heath High St but I get your point, it would be an ideal place for a Sainsbury's Superstore due to lack of competition.

I definitely wouldn't have a problem with them being our main sponsors but not sure about a stadium name change, though I guess money talks. Maybe the best compromise would be renaming the new Main stand the Sainsbury's Main stand?

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 05:39 PM
Yeah I can't see Sainsbury's actually wanting stadium naming rights as the store's location is Selhurst Park so I think a stand name is probably the way to go. Of course, this could all be bollox if the new sponsor turns out to be Tampax.:D

Billy Rhino
24-05-2014, 06:07 PM
Or Viagra...guaranteed to stay up

dave_who_ru
24-05-2014, 06:30 PM
Looking at that picture why don't we just rotate the ground/pitch and develop into the car park?

Already mentioned several times and a ridiculous idea, in my opinion.

dave_who_ru
24-05-2014, 06:46 PM
Compulsory purchases of rows of housing, rebuilding Sainbury's in the car park is not going to happen. Get real people.

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 06:52 PM
Compulsory purchases of rows of housing, rebuilding Sainbury's in the car park is not going to happen. Get real people.

Finishing 11th in the PL wasn't ever gonna happen either.

Jeez, you're a real buzzkill.

dave_who_ru
24-05-2014, 07:07 PM
Finishing 11th in the PL wasn't ever gonna happen either.

Jeez, you're a real buzzkill.

Certainly more chance of finishing 11th then issuing compulsory purchase orders.

You will find in general that it is only local authorities that can issue compulsory purchase orders and normally only if they are redeveloping a town centre.

Increasing the capacity of Selhurst Park is not in my view an example of 'public betterment' or 'in the public interest'.

Of course both we and Sainsbury's could offer to buy all these houses but if the owner doesn't want to sell then there is not much we can do about it. Certainly something that could drag on for years.

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 07:24 PM
Certainly more chance of finishing 11th then issuing compulsory purchase orders.

You will find in general that it is only local authorities that can issue compulsory purchase orders and normally only if they are redeveloping a town centre.

Increasing the capacity of Selhurst Park is not in my view an example of 'public betterment' or 'in the public interest'.

Of course both we and Sainsbury's could offer to buy all these houses but if the owner doesn't want to sell then there is not much we can do about it. Certainly something that could drag on for years.


Having a Premier League football club based in the Borough is an absolute killer of a public interest to Croydon. It raises the International profile of Croydon and how do you attract international businesses to locate if you have the profile of a suburban backwater? Companies like Nestle are set to leave and Croydon needs high profile companies to stay in order to prosper.

This is the best transformational opportunity that Palace has had since... well probably ever. Croydon Council knows it too.

dave_who_ru
24-05-2014, 07:40 PM
I'm not sure it is 'in the public interest' that two commercial companies, Palace and Sainsbury's, improve their facilities and make bigger profits.

Pistol Knight
24-05-2014, 07:43 PM
Having a Premier League football club based in the Borough is an absolute killer of a public interest to Croydon. It raises the International profile of Croydon and how do you attract international businesses to locate if you have the profile of a suburban backwater? Companies like Nestle are set to leave and Croydon needs high profile companies to stay in order to prosper.

This is the best transformational opportunity that Palace has had since... well probably ever. Croydon Council knows it too.

Not sure they even know where we are located!!

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure it is 'in the public interest' that two commercial companies, Palace and Sainsbury's, improve their facilities and make bigger profits.

Of course it is - it's part of the financial and amenity fabric of the borough.

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 08:05 PM
Not sure they even know where we are located!!

You can bet your house that CPFC and Selhurst Park are on the agenda for Croydon Council.

So many negative waves Moriarty, so many negative waves.

spt1978
24-05-2014, 08:08 PM
You can bet your house that CPFC and Selhurst Park are on the agenda for Croydon Council.

So many negative waves Moriarty, so many negative waves.

It is not surprising people feel like this, the Council have not been Palace friendly in the past.

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 08:27 PM
It is not surprising people feel like this, the Council have not been Palace friendly in the past.

That's probably a reflection of the succession of chancers and no-hopers who, unfortunately, got their hands on the club. CPFC2010 are probably the first set of owners that Croydon could possibly do business with over the past 50 years and I'm including Ron Noades in that.

Beanie
24-05-2014, 08:35 PM
Having a Premier League football club based in the Borough is an absolute killer of a public interest to Croydon. It raises the International profile of Croydon and how do you attract international businesses to locate if you have the profile of a suburban backwater? Companies like Nestle are set to leave and Croydon needs high profile companies to stay in order to prosper.

This is the best transformational opportunity that Palace has had since... well probably ever. Croydon Council knows it too.

do you serious think that somebody in Vevey will be rushing into his bosses office declaring they MUST stay in Croydon because Palace have stayed up? I doubt the Swiss non-football fans are even aware of the link between the two!

GorBlimey
24-05-2014, 08:41 PM
do you serious think that somebody in Vevey will be rushing into his bosses office declaring they MUST stay in Croydon because Palace have stayed up? I doubt the Swiss non-football fans are even aware of the link between the two!

WTF are you on about?

Hedgehog
24-05-2014, 09:10 PM
So are those "4" houses privately owned or council houses? I've read conflicting stories on here.

Could CPFC2010 buy one each?

Yoda
24-05-2014, 09:35 PM
I'm not sure it is 'in the public interest' that two commercial companies, Palace and Sainsbury's, improve their facilities and make bigger profits.

Better amenities for the locals and increased employment....both whilst building and then staffing these.

Both would be privately funded, so the council 'only' need to be willing to approve planning etc. Comparatively speaking, v few houses would be affected and some of those were built after the ground. So those residents knew they would be living in the shadow of Selhurst when they moved in.

Night Eagle
24-05-2014, 09:37 PM
Already mentioned several times and a ridiculous idea, in my opinion.


Why do you think that?

Billy Rhino
25-05-2014, 12:47 AM
So are those "4" houses privately owned or council houses? I've read conflicting stories on here.

Could CPFC2010 buy one each?

They are privately owned. 1 sold for £90,000 in 2002 and 1 for £316,000 in 2005 (something not quite right there). They are all 5 bedroomed houses but I guess there may be some sort of splitting of the property for these prices to make sense. Either way they are a major hindrance to the progress of the club and have to be dealt with in one way or the other.

Hedgehog
25-05-2014, 12:53 AM
5 Bedrooms! Boy they look small for 5 bedrooms.

davech
25-05-2014, 01:09 AM
They are privately owned. 1 sold for £90,000 in 2002 and 1 for £316,000 in 2005 (something not quite right there). They are all 5 bedroomed houses but I guess there may be some sort of splitting of the property for these prices to make sense. Either way they are a major hindrance to the progress of the club and have to be dealt with in one way or the other.

The Camden Market or Brighton Pier solution? :D

Hedgehog
25-05-2014, 02:03 AM
The Camden Market or Brighton Pier solution? :D
Ah I see your innuendo... I fear the main stand might be collateral damage though... would that be a bad thing (on a non game day obviously).

GorBlimey
25-05-2014, 02:34 AM
Before any affirmative action, perhaps a quick check is needed to ensure that relevant insurance policies are in order:D

dave_who_ru
25-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Why do you think that?

Having looked at the footprint turning the stadium 90 degrees would fit.

However, that must mean we would have to ground share for at least a season. Also you would have to reconfigure / rebuild all the stands including the Holmesdale.

It would also impact on the other houses in Wooderson Close. I suggest the whole lot would have to come down. Then there would be issues with the houses at the bottom end of Holmesdale Road as the existing stand would have to be extended.

Also I think it would impact on the houses at the bottom end of Clifton Road.

Also the cost of doing it all at once.

Also the pitch alignment of east to west is likely to have sunshine issues. Normally pitches run north to south.

Dave
25-05-2014, 10:48 AM
we have sunshine issues now, at least the fans in the arthur do :)