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Eagle of the East
05-10-2000, 10:41 PM
Am I the only one out there who finds it very hard to get excited about supporting the "National Team"?

About the only one I can stand in the Normal England Team is Le Saux (except for good old Nige) - and the manager is a complete ****. Beckham being handed the vice captaincy just about killed it for me.

Maybe if Beckham isnt playing (injury) I might be able to muster up a bit of support, but I reckon I might stick a tenner on Germany to win - to make the game more interesting for me.

I am ready and waiting for all the abuse from you patriots out there!

[This message has been edited by Eagle of the East (edited 05 October 2000).]

richit
05-10-2000, 11:09 PM
forum incorrectus

arussell
05-10-2000, 11:11 PM
You certainly aren't the only one - I've felt the same for a long time now, which is why I usually don't go to England games.

It's nothing like supporting your own club - don't get the same feelings from it at all.

Switching this to the footy forum for continued discussion .....

richit
05-10-2000, 11:17 PM
Very common. I don't get very excited until the big tournaments come around. Even then, it takes a couple of matches. Saturday should be good for the Wembley business though.

ReadingSamo*
05-10-2000, 11:21 PM
Im looking forward to going on saturday,see our boys kick the ****e out the Germans


"God save the queen"

brighton_eagle
05-10-2000, 11:59 PM
Couldn't agree more. I really found it hard to be interested in Euro 2000, the writing was on the wall from the first Sweden game in qualifying.

As it goes, I will be in Cuba for the next two England games, so may well miss them, but do I care? Not really. I'm bored of watching this England team. Same old same old. And if I can predict Keegans tactics and team selection, you can put money on it that other national coaches can too.

I certainly don't feel any of the passion, elation or disapointment (select one) that I get from watching Palace.

On a lighter note. It's not often that you can say that watching Palace is just like watching England....or should that be the other way round?
http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Mellor = fat tosser

ReadingSamo*
06-10-2000, 12:31 AM
we beat the Germans 1-0!!!!

brighton_eagle
06-10-2000, 01:12 AM
Yeah, but only cos they were even more sh*t then us!!! Didnt beat anyon else though did we?

brighton_eagle
06-10-2000, 01:13 AM
Yeah, but only cos they were even more sh*t then us!!! Didnt beat anyon else though did we?

brighton_eagle
06-10-2000, 01:15 AM
Whoops....sorry about that. Just soooo excited about my holiday!!

exiled in Wales
06-10-2000, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by James:
This is one of my pet subjects. I can't warm to the likes of Cole, Beckham and the Neville Brothers, just because they happen to be wearing an England Shirt. They are Manchester United Players, and accordingly I have no wish to see them do anything but fall flat on their respective faces.

I support Palace, not England. I despise the Racists and Nationalists who follow the England Team and embarrass us abroad. In any event, I consider myself a European first, and English second.

I would rather see Palace beat Crawley in a Pre-Season friendly, than England win a game against anybody.

Agree on the Manc scum point - I always slag Beckscum no matter what shirt he's wearing, when the armchair England fans (like me) who are probably Chelsea and Manc armchair fans have a go I point out that Martin Keown, Dennis Wise and numerous other players with less caps or less ability have out scored Beckscum in an England shirt. For an attacking midfielder who takes every free kick from any dangerous areas around the box to have only 1 goal in 30ish appearances is terrible. It's a well funny sport, first you say "Beckhams played about 30 games for England, do you know how many he has scored ?" at which point they usually catch on that it must be a trick question and he obviously hasn't scored bucket loads so the replies I've had have ranged from "3-8" - you should see their faces drop when you reply "just the 1 - useless ****."

I'm sorry I got carried away.

Still support England though coz I consider myself English and generally hate all "johnny foreigner" types for putting labels on the wrong side of boxer shorts among other things.

Keep St George in my heart ....

Seriously though I never really thought about my Englishness till I came to Wales - there's nothing like constant abuse and discrimination / violence to cement nationality. The more the taffs have a go the louder I shout "Engerland".

It started when I went to a Wales rugby friendly against France before the Rugby worldcup with some Welsh mates. Before the match they had kids representing the 6 nations tournament- the other teams came out to cheers, when the English KIDS came out 60,000 people booed them, the Welsh I were with were booing till I pointed out they were only kids.


[This message has been edited by exiled in Wales (edited 06 October 2000).]

selhurstparkflyer
06-10-2000, 06:19 PM
I must admit I find this anti-Man u stuff a bit sad really. They are the best team in the UK team by miles.
Yes they have some thick and arrogant players etc but I do feel thta whatever they do people want to give them stick.

Persoannly I love England winning. unfortunately I hate watching them play. Until our football authorites and press realise that our players are just skillful enough, we will continue to see our team outplayed by smaller nations.

We must have a really strong look at ourselves and stop trying to convince ourselves we are the world's strongest league.
yes, itrs exciting but thats because its fast not because its skillful.
Until our players become good enough to attract the interest of foreign clubs, we will lag behind the rest of the world.


as for the present manager..its a joke.

fieldy
06-10-2000, 06:20 PM
Can't believe there are people who feel this way about the country. England winning is the most important thing there is. If it was a choice of Palace winning the FA Cup or seeing England win the World Cup I'd take England everytime. I'm a Palace die hard but England is my country and I'm proud of it. I'll be there on Saturday, as I am for all England games, It makes me seeth when I hear such B******s from so called fans!!! The t****r who said he considers himself European first and English second, exactly what are you on ??? Are you Tony Blair's plaything??? It's the same as if you were a player, great to win at club level but at International level, that's the pinnacle, it doesn't get any better. It's not just Chelsea and Man U fans at games either, how many of you posting this rubbish have actually been to an England game? What you'll find is true English supporters there. A lot of whom support the lower division clubs who have no player representing them. Get the facts before posting anymore moronic ramblings, do you see the Dutch or Brazilian fans taking such a pathetic attitude towards their National side???

Gooders
06-10-2000, 06:54 PM
I think our eminent lawyer (albeit of the wrong type) will now rest his case. The kind of support you see from Dutch fans is not at all of the xenophobic, moronic, threatening type that a minority of England fans perpetuate (sorry Neil, but it had to be said).

I can't get excited about Palace at the moment, never mind England. If we lose 3-0 to Germany, I couldn't care less.

Being English is an accident of birth. Being Palace is a matter of choice. There is no comparison.

James
06-10-2000, 06:55 PM
Hullo - it's the to**er back again.

Yes, I have been to any number of England games. I didn't miss a single game at Wembley from January 1990 until May 1995 (I had an Olympic Gallery debenture pass). I well remember the wonderful game against France, featuring our own Geoff Thomas - and the miss of the decade.

I have not said that I regard all England fans as hopeless Nationalists. Nevertheless, it is certainly true that many Nationalists are drawn towards out National Team.

I don't take any special pride in being 'English' or (despite what I said earlier) 'European'. I am very proud however to be a Palace fan.

Unlike Fieldy, my pride and my passion is directed exclusively towards Palace. Given the choice between a Zenith Data Systems Nonsense Cup for Palace, and the World Cup for England, it would be the Zeneth every time.

However, I do enjoy watching football at all levels, and I will certainly be watching on Saturday - I just won't mind very much who wins.

Son of Selhurst
06-10-2000, 07:09 PM
James, don't call someone a tosser just cos he disagrees with you.

And I'm a Palace fan cos I was born in Streatham, and I'm an England fan cos I was born in England. If I was born in Liverpool I'd be Everton or Liverpool, or even a Tranmere fan I guess.

There's a very interesting book about What is a Nation? Nothing to do with Racism, or bigots or anything. It's who you are because of where you are.

No-one gets excited about England because if you do, you;re a racist.

Hence no-one gives a **** about St George's day, but St Patrick's day is celebrated around world, and St David's day is a major day in Wales, and St Andrews day in Scotland.

Were you at the England/Scotland Euro qualifiers? I was at Wembley, and the intense hatred of the Scottish anthem because of what the Scots did when ours came on up there was frightening. Not racism, PATRIOTISM!

Get some!

SoS

James
06-10-2000, 07:20 PM
Hey! I wouldn't call ANYONE a to**er - except myself! Please read my message again, and this time a bit more carefully. In his original message, Fieldy wrote:

The t****r who said he considers himself European first and English second, exactly what are you on ??? Are you Tony Blair's plaything???

Fieldy was referring to me, so I introduced myself as the to**er! It was a (failed) attempt to introduce some levity into the discussion. I assume that your criticism was intended for Fieldy, so you are forgiven by me at least. Fieldy will have to answer for himself.

As to your point - patriotism. I confess that I am not much of a patriot. I am a member of the Human Race, and it doesn't really matter much to me that as a member of the Race I happened to be born in England. However, I respect your patriotism, and fully accept that being a patriot doesn't necessarily mean that you are a Xenophobic nationalist, or a Racist.

As others have said, I didn't choose to be born in England. I did however choose to support Palace.

James the to**er

Blind_Eagle
06-10-2000, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by Son of Selhurst:

Were you at the England/Scotland Euro qualifiers? I was at Wembley, and the intense hatred of the Scottish anthem because of what the Scots did when ours came on up there was frightening. Not racism, PATRIOTISM!



That wasn't patriotism, that was pathetic. By both sets of supporters.

And yes I was there, and at least my team won http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif

Club before country every time for me

Son of Selhurst
06-10-2000, 07:50 PM
James

Apologies for the tosser mis-interpretation. Comes across as a bit sarky when you read it in plain text...

I stand by the rest though! http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/smile.gif

SoS

Strathclyde Eagle
06-10-2000, 08:13 PM
Club before country by a considerable distance.

I'm sorry if that doesn't make me patriotic Fieldy, but Hoppo's winner at Wembley against Sheffield United capped one of the best days of my life. I wouldn't have swapped that for anything, including England winning a major tournament.



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Ciao member Toneboy7 (http://www.uk.ciao.com/bin/uk/Register.po?refBy=85890)
Strathclyde Eagles homepage (http://home.clara.net/tartan/palace/index.htm)

paf
06-10-2000, 08:25 PM
I trundle along to see England sometimes, sold my tix for Sat to someone who really wanted to go. I'll watch it in the pub etc...

Just doesnt do it for me. I like to travel abroad to see them and have a bit of a jolly etc.

Burr
06-10-2000, 09:13 PM
The age old debate eh?

For me I support Palace and England hand in hand and am very proud to do so. Due to the frequency each team plays, it is always easier to get more passionate about your club: you get to know each player very well and can get deeply involved with the goings on there. This doesn't usually happen at international level, but that shouldn't make me a laughing stock because I want support them! Tomorrows England game will be great - it's verses one of our old adversaries and will be the last game to be played at Wembley. I cannot wait to get there.

As for people hating players because they are 'Manc Scum', I just find the whole scenario laughable. Who gives a monkeys? I don't! Man Utd are a great team, albeit with some idiotic players in their midst. I agree that Keegan is not the man to lead the team and feel that it is about time England swallowed it's pride and looked abroad, we just don't have the managers in our country at the moment. Funnily enough I would happily appoint Alex Ferguson as the next England manager, as he would give our players the kick up the arse that they need - but I fear that would make sure James never followed the team again!

Yes being an England fan can be trying, especially when the bloody idiots run riot abroad, but I am still proud of my country and the team and will represent them to the best of my abilities.

Regarding the national anthem - I thought the Scots were spot on by making a noise during it. Each team has their own anthem for their part of the United Kingdom, but what do the English sing/play? God Save The Queen - the BRITISH national anthem! Once again a case in point where England thinks it is Britain and should rule the roost. Before anyone asks, I am English, but I see only folly in the current anthem setup.

fieldy
06-10-2000, 09:58 PM
James, you say you are a member of the human race, why do you not act as such then? Why are you not patriotic, why do you not care about the result on Saturday, could it be that you are of mixed nationalities and your loyalties are torn? Why should being patriotic have anything to do with racism at all? Are other countries being racist when they are patriotc, it's an old stupid point that gets right on my t***s. If you don't care about your country then I declare you are no more than a spineless jellyfish, frankly no one would want anyone like that around at Palace either, get off the fence and stop woorying about upsetting people, what you need is a bit of fire in your belly!!!

Eagle of the East
06-10-2000, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Burr:
The age old debate eh?

As for people hating players because they are 'Manc Scum', I just find the whole scenario laughable.

This is nothing to do with the team they play for. Beckham is an absolute disgrace and in my opinion should not play for England again until he learns to grow up a bit (which he plainly hasnt) Instead, Keegan gives him the Vice Captaincy. It is almost laughable!

Good to see all you England fanatics get so worked up about the team! I am actually half Welsh, and I must admit that I always support Wales over England and get more passionate about them. The reason? Maybe because the Welsh Team are underdogs who are not totally full of themselves.

Believe me I have tried to get behind the team for big tournaments but I would rather see Palace beat Birmingham next saturday than an England victory tomorrow.

selhurst
06-10-2000, 11:08 PM
This Thread has certainly brought out some strong opinions! I'm going tomorrow, and I'm looking forward to it. But at the end of the day, it's just another game of football. And in the grand scheme of things, it isn't really that important.

arussell
06-10-2000, 11:34 PM
I agree somewhat with your original sentiments James - although I certainly don't hold anything against any England player when they wear the shirt - regardless of which team they come from.

I will cheer on Beckham and Scholes (but not that dope Neville http://www.cpfc.org/ubb/wink.gif as much as Southgate and Adams - makes no difference in that sense.

But still it's club over country every time and no England feeling (as Strathclyde pointed out) will EVER match that moment when Hopkin scored.

Les Butler
06-10-2000, 11:39 PM
Yes I do get excited about England Games,there,s quite a few of us that get together in this French province of Quebec with our St-George flags and where we all become one and support our team ( excluding utd fans of course !).
And we have a bloody good time as well !


You never know what you have till you lose it.

Burr
06-10-2000, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by arussell:
But still it's club over country every time and no England feeling (as Strathclyde pointed out) will EVER match that moment when Hopkin scored.

I know where you are coming from Alan but I disagree. I have had this chat with a few people before and I can't honestly say if I would rather see England win a major championship or have Palace win the FA Cup. It really is that much of a split decision for me.

Palace winning the League would come out on top of all comparisons however, but I would still dearly love to see England 'do it'.

lightweight
07-10-2000, 12:30 AM
I'm looking forward to tomorrow more for the occassion of it than the game itself.. having been to wembley a few times - I don't think it will ever be the same again and it holds some brilliant memories for me.

Hopkin's goal has to be the best memory - but for atmosphere the euro 96 games - particuarly against Germany were electric...

However I have missed england games when palace have been playing - but would prefer to see both if I could. I enjoy the 'patriotisim' that goes with it - I'm proud to be english, and totally agree with Burr's comment that we should have land of hope and glory as our anthem when we play as england.. I have never understood that - particularly when we played scotland - apart from anything it's more rousing than god save the queen.

Nobby
07-10-2000, 01:36 AM
Eagle of the East wrote

"Beckham is an absolute disgrace and in my opinion should not play for England again until he learns to grow up a bit (which he plainly hasnt)"


I never realised that being a mature, fully developed human being was a pre-requisite for being a footballer. However, I would have thought that being the most exciting and talented player England has produced for some time might have been qualification enough. And as for David Beckham being an "absolute disgrace", is there something I've missed? Considering the sort of ridiculous abuse he has to put up with (such as the above) on a daily basis, I'd say Beckham has behaved with remarkable restraint, dignity and, dare I say it, maturity, over the past couple of years.


[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 06 October 2000).]

ajp
07-10-2000, 02:55 AM
Palace will always come first and certainly if I had to pick between Selhurst or Wembley then I'd be on that Holmesdale every time. But having said that I am proud to be English and do want the team to do well and especially against the Germans. It's also probably good for our side(CPFC) to have this forced break as we've been playing so badly and another defeat to the wombles would just be to much at present.

Eagle of the East
07-10-2000, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Nobby:
And as for David Beckham being an "absolute disgrace", is there something I've missed


How about getting needlessly sent off in the World Cup game against Argentina, because he couldnt control his schoolboy temper, which may well have cost us the game.
And did the guy learn his lesson?
No - Numerous repetitions of this sort of spiteful immaturity have arisen since, leading me to the conclusion that he has learnt nothing atall from the incident, and probably doesnt even think he did anything wrong.

This is quite ironic - Here we are Palace Fans - arguing about David Beckham!

Vic Eagle
07-10-2000, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by James:
This is one of my pet subjects...I support Palace, not England...I despise the Racists and Nationalists who follow the England Team and embarrass us abroad...I would rather see Palace beat Crawley in a Pre-Season friendly, than England win a game against anybody.

That just about sums it up for me as well.

I'm much more likely to get behind the national team of a country where I have been shown hospitality on my travels than to have any regard for the English national team. This means that the first international results I look for tend to be those of Iceland, Australia and Ireland...

The only reason I'd look for the result of an England team is if Nigel Martyn was in goal, hoping that he had a good match...but my days of going to England games, or even of watching them on the TV, are long gone. Too many overpaid, petulant primadonnas on the pitch and too many ignorant, violent fools off it.

Vic Eagle
07-10-2000, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by lightweight:
I enjoy the 'patriotisim' that goes with it - I'm proud to be english, and totally agree with Burr's comment that we should have land of hope and glory as our anthem when we play as england...

I would enjoy the 'patriotism' that goes with an England game if this was manifested in respect for our country and a mutual respect of the country of the team we were playing.

However, whenever I've seen England play in the past the type of 'patriotism' I've seen displayed has been of the ugly variety that seems so common at England matches...jeering the national anthem of the opposing team, drunken idiots singing racist songs, in short the patriotism that was described as 'the last refuge of a scoundrel'.

None of this makes me proud to be English at all. Hence I live in Australia, where the 'patriotism' is much more genuinely a love for one's own country rather than a hatred of others (bar a little gentle ribbing of the Kiwis and Poms) and everything is so much more good humoured.

James
07-10-2000, 04:23 AM
This is one of my pet subjects. I can't warm to the likes of Cole, Beckham and the Neville Brothers, just because they happen to be wearing an England Shirt. They are Manchester United Players, and accordingly I have no wish to see them do anything but fall flat on their respective faces.

I support Palace, not England. I suppose I enjoyed the 1966 World Cup win, when I was 15, but I have never really been a committed England fan. I despise the Racists and Nationalists who follow the England Team and embarrass us abroad. In any event, I consider myself a European first, and English second.

I would rather see Palace beat Crawley in a Pre-Season friendly, than England win a game against anybody.

ruediger
07-10-2000, 04:50 AM
Surprinsingly this is the reason why I don't care about the German team (Bayern Munich lot).

Want to see England win by a clear margin.

BTW: What is a European?


[This message has been edited by ruediger (edited 06 October 2000).]

Eagle of the East
07-10-2000, 02:09 PM
Its settled - I just put £20 on Germany to win on odds of 9-4.

Better lock me in the tower then cos you know who I'll be cheering on now!

dazza CPFC
07-10-2000, 03:50 PM
everyone must get behing club and country and give them 100% support

James
07-10-2000, 07:57 PM
I have just watched England go 0-1 down to a better Team ... followed by a mindless chant from what sounded like the majority in the Stadium of 'Stand up if you won the War'.

I am almost hoping that Germany wins this one.

Joey L
07-10-2000, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by James:
followed by a mindless chant from what sounded like the majority in the Stadium of 'Stand up if you won the War'.



That was a very poor and stupid chant. I, as a Dutchman, am absolutely no fan of the Germans, but this was really pathetic.

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Dutch Eagle

Nobby
07-10-2000, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Eagle of the East:
How about getting needlessly sent off in the World Cup game against Argentina, because he couldnt control his schoolboy temper, which may well have cost us the game.
And did the guy learn his lesson?



YES. As I said, in my post, what has he done that's so terrible in the LAST COUPLE OF YEARS? Even if you believe he was guilty in the Argentina match (and there's plenty of evidence to suggest he was a bit unlucky to get sent off), my point is that since then he HAS obviously succeeded in conducting himself in a more mature manner, under great scrutiny and pressure.

Nobby
07-10-2000, 09:17 PM
If you want to level criticism, there are some that justly deserve it. Like the inept tactical ability of the England manager.

BJ
07-10-2000, 09:25 PM
ooops... I thought Palace were bad. Smithy has no worries compared to KK.

Snorwood Eagle
07-10-2000, 09:33 PM
Very true James. England's so called supporters were an absolute disgrace today. The 'stand up, if you won the war' chant was nothing for anyone to be proud of, yet it seemed to be one of the loudest choruses picked up by the TV microphones. When will people understand that creating a 'them vs us' attitude does not endear anyone to this country. I speak to so many neutral supporters, and they speak with total disgust of the way in which the English 'fans' act.
I think there was also a missile, or something thrown at one of the German players today, which again is disgraceful.
Petty comments such as: 'lets beat those krauts'; which are said without thinking of the implications continue to become part of the mentality that society encourages. IT'S A GAME - NOT A WAR, why can't people understand that?

Al From Bromley
07-10-2000, 09:55 PM
I was almost glad Germany won after that chant and the missile throwing incident.

Gooders
07-10-2000, 10:27 PM
Just got back from shopping with the wife (that's how little interest I had in today's events).

I hate to say I told you so...

James and Vic Eagle - agree with your comments 100%.

Chobham Eagle
07-10-2000, 11:04 PM
It's great to see that there are so many decent Crystal Palace fans who abhor all the negative stuff that is associated with following England. The jeering of the German anthem today almost made me want Germany to win from the start. The 'stand up if you won the war' was, as has been said, pathetic.

I'm afraid there is a very narrow dividing line between patriotism and xenophobic nationalism for English people which is to do with our imperial past. Too many English people still think we rule the world and therefore have a god given right to defeat Germany at football or India etc at cricket. It's what makes the debate over Europe in this country so ridiculous. People seem unable to debate the issue without falling back on references to World War 2 (eg M Thatcher just last week).

Because of these attitudes I am probably even less patriotic than James. I do make an effort when it comes to sport, but the idea that there is any comparison between Palace winning the FA Cup and England winning the World Cup is, for me, laughable.

P.S Does anyone remember the famous headline from the 1950s - "Fog in the Channel, Europe isolated". Says it all.

Eagle of the East
07-10-2000, 11:34 PM
Agree wholeheartedly with the comments above.
As soon as the English fans started to boo and jeer the National Anthem I felt ashamed - there was absolutely no need for that. Where does this Jingoistic attitude come from? It makes me laugh when English fans sing Rule Brittania as well - we havent ruled the waves for the best part of a century!

Anyway, I'm happy, my 20 quid on Germany to win has paid of and I'm now 45 quid richer!

Back to the Beckham argument:


Originally posted by Nobby:
YES. As I said, in my post, what has he done that's so terrible in the LAST COUPLE OF YEARS?

Er...Nobby wasnt World Cup 98 2 years ago - i.e the last couple of years?
If you want something more recent didnt he pull a similar stunt during that Fifa World Club cup for Man U last year as well. And I am sure he has done it a couple of other times too - I dont keep tabs on the guy though. Better ask a Man City fan about that one!

Ian of Chatham
08-10-2000, 03:41 AM
On the subject of the behaviour of England fans, the violence, hooliganism and rioting abroad, particularly at Dublin in 1995 is the reason why I cannot see myself ever going to an England game, I've voiced my disapproval about this subject at great length during Euro 2000 and to avoid annoying lightweight and others again I won't go over that old ground. The only other point is that I cannot agree with the comments from Chobham Eagle or James about wanting Germany to win today just because of the fans' behaviour. That's simply because no matter what I think about the hooligan element of English fans I believe that Germany also have that hooligan element as well so they are no angels, I deplore the booing of their nation anthem though.

[This message has been edited by Ian of Chatham (edited 08 October 2000).]

Del Boy
08-10-2000, 04:13 AM
For and against some of the views here.

I agree with James, Chobham and Ian about the xenophobia, booing and the ridiculous war chant. This stuff makes me ashamed to be English.

I find it hard to say I want England to lose, just because 70k morons found their way in to Wembley. I'd rather England win and the English people found a better way to express themselves than sneering at other nations. But perhaps that's going to take some time. So some of the negative statements on this thread are quite understandable.

I don't agree with Land of Hope and Glory as the English tune. I just see that as another triumphalist, imperial relic, more likley to continue the xenophobic cr*p. I'd rather go for Jerusalem. At least it's more of a celebration of England.

Burr
08-10-2000, 04:14 AM
I just want to speak as someone who was at the game today, as opposed to someone who watched it on TV:

I watched the game with Soundbyter (after meeting Lightweight before the game). We both thought it was pathetic how the German national anthem was booed and commented on this at the time. Sadly about 85% of the England fans seemed to be doing it (they are the evil Krauts after all...).

The same can be said for the 'stand up if you won the war' chant AND the theme to the 'Dambusters' - which had people pretending to fly around like a plane with their arms. We didn't partake in either of those chants (or the singing of the national anthem, for the reasons detailed in a post early on in this thread).

Even 'Rule Britannia' is a joke. Not for the reason stated above that we haven't been a naval superpower for ages, but more due to the fact that it is a fuc*ing BRITISH song, NOT English!!!!!!

However, even with all these blo*dy annoyances to put up with, I will still support the team and am proud to be an England supporter. I take a great deal of pride in knowing that I can be a good ambassador for the game and it will take a lot of similar minded England fans if the pathetic attitude of our fans is EVER going to change. If I had met a German fan today I would have happily sat down and had a quiet drink with them, discussing the game and what had happened. Sadly a lot of English fans would rather have reminded them of the war.

To reiterate: Sure we have a lot of twa*s supporting the team, but if the people that don't like what they see don't start making their presence felt, then will this ever change?

lightweight
08-10-2000, 04:33 AM
the sad thing about the 'stand up if you won the war' chant was that if we were playing good football and winning - we wouldn't have to resort to that..

booing of the national anthem is always unnecessary - even the announcements in german outside the stadium were being booed - so it was inevitable it was going to happen... I don't know if anything can be done to stop it really

lightweight
08-10-2000, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Burr:


Even 'Rule Britannia' is a joke. Not for the reason stated above that we haven't been a naval superpower for ages, but more due to the fact that it is a fuc*ing BRITISH song, NOT English!!!!!!

Why can't we have land of hope and glory - which they do at the commonwealth games when the home nations compete separately...

Eagle of the East
08-10-2000, 06:10 AM
Originally posted by lightweight:
Why can't we have land of hope and glory - which they do at the commonwealth games when the home nations compete separately...

I agree - I dont know how anyone can feel passionate aabout the dirge they play at the moment. Compare it to other Nation's National Anthem's and you see why we are underperforming

PalaceFan in Alabama
08-10-2000, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by James:
In any event, I consider myself a European first, and English second.

How PC! I agree with all but the statement above, when ever I fill out anything that asks for my nationality, I always enter "ENGLISH", I have never been British and have no desire to be labeled anything other than English!
As for the England team, why in the hell would they put that ****house Wilkinson in charge? Until England gets a manager that does not what to be PC with the old guard we will never be anything but second or third rate. Get a manager that will selct players due to their form and not on past form. How many players today were over 30?

Vic Eagle
09-10-2000, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by lightweight:
Why can't we have land of hope and glory

For starters, I don't agree with the sentiment 'wider still and wider, shall thy bounds be set'...I think that it's a bit outdated, to say the least.

ruediger
09-10-2000, 02:05 AM
posted already to another thread in this forum:

Well, that's football.
It gives you (myself included) a perfectly good opportunity to act like a 14-year old whether you are English or German.
I was born and brought up in Germany, still live there (so I am regarded as typically German), I support Crystal Palace FC since 1973 and have many friends (and I really mean friends) in England. on Sat I was supporting England and will get some stick on Monday when I'll have to meet up with a handful football nuts who made the trip to the twin towers.

In my mind: not a classic game, plenty of fun on both sides. In the end it was good-humoured. So what's the problem?

Chobham Eagle
09-10-2000, 12:06 PM
Many of you will appreciate this extract from Richard William's piece in today's Guardian:

'Some would see the wholehearted jeering of the German national anthem as a harmless display of a certain British sense of humour, not to say a fine old Wembley tradition. But the resulting embarrassment paled next to any decent response to the sound, in the minutes before half-time and with Germany firmly ensconced in the lead, of a large proportion of the crowd rising to face the section of visiting fans in the north-western curve and singing: "Stand up, if you won the war." An encore of the Dam Busters' March, with accompanying aeroplane gestures, was greeted by the German spectators with an answering volley of flashbulbs. It was not hard to imagine what they will be saying when they show their souvenir snaps to their friends in Munich and Berlin.

Imagine, too, the feelings at that moment of Keegan, whose own playing career in Germany was marked not merely by success on the pitch but by his willingness to make the effort to adapt to the culture of a foreign country and to behave in general like a citizen of the world. As he scanned the stands and heard the singing, he may have asked himself what he was doing managing a football team on behalf of that bunch of cretins in News of the World plastic bowler hats, the dark underbelly of Euroscepticism.'

James
09-10-2000, 01:38 PM
Thank you for posting that Chobham, and thank you also to those who have posted here echoing these (or similar) sentiments. I am encouraged by the fact that few people have agreed with Fieldy's silly statement:

England winning is the most important thing there is...

It isn't of course. There are far more important things, such as respect and dignity. We lost more than a game of football on Saturday.

Al From Bromley
09-10-2000, 02:32 PM
". There are far more important things, such as respect and dignity. We lost more than a game of football on Saturday."

English fans haven't had rspect and dignity for years. Its no wonder the rest of Europe regard the English as nothing more than troublemakers. The Scots and irish fans are regarded as a friendly, sporting lot by and large, yet the English are perceived as narrow minded xenophobes.

James
09-10-2000, 02:35 PM
Fair point - I suppose you can't lose what you don't have in the first place.

Gooders
09-10-2000, 03:21 PM
I've travelled extensively throughout Europe for the last 10 years (about 16 European contries visited). I dread being abroad when England are playing, especially when it happens to be in the country where I am.

I recall once being in a bar in sleepy little Luxembourg when England were playing against Sweden. We lost, needless to say.

I would guess that about 20 different nationalities were represented in the bar and every single one of them wanted England to lose and were supporting Sweden.

It was a depressing night and gave me an insight into what it must feel like to be a marginalised, ethnic minority in a hostile environment.

When I hear about scenes like those witnessed on Saturday at Wembley, I can fully understand why no one likes us.

ruediger
09-10-2000, 03:23 PM
At the office I've just spoken to a number of German supporters who'd made the trip to Wembley. (They flew out from local airport Lübeck to Stansted).

They are still enthusiastic
- not about the result but the thrilling atmosphere.
They think is was all good-humoured.
They think it was a day they'll never forget.
They plan to buy ticket for the first match to be played at the redeveloped ground.

So there's no reason to feel ashamed for any chants or gestures. Remember: This is football.

Vic Eagle
09-10-2000, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Gooders:
I dread being abroad when England are playing, especially when it happens to be in the country where I am.

I was in a bar in Maastricht during England's 4-1 defeat of Holland in Euro '96.

I was the only Englishman in a sea of orange.

If I'd been in a pub in England I probably would have been on the wrong end of a broken pint pot.

As I was in Holland, virtually everybody in the bar tried to buy me a drink...and this was after the match...

Spot the difference.....



[This message has been edited by Vic Eagle (edited 09 October 2000).]

arussell
09-10-2000, 03:45 PM
Boy am I glad I didn't waste any money on tickets for that rubbish - we were awful and clueless most of the time (bit like Palace really !!).

Interesting to read your comments Rudi - Personally I was quite embarrassed by the booing of the anthem and the ridiculous chants, but you have a point too I guess.

Anyhow - it's just made me more determined in my single minded quest of not wanting to go to England games ! - although having said that, I will be watching it on Wednesday when it kicks of at 5, to see how the players respond to Wilkinson.

Al From Bromley
09-10-2000, 03:54 PM
"Remember: This is football."

Maybe, but tell me why nearly every other country in the world will support anyone but England when they are playing another country and why the English have such a bad reputation? its BECAUSE of football.

Gooders
09-10-2000, 03:56 PM
Vic Eagle - I too was in Holland when we beat them 4-1.

The next day, I went in to the office to see the guy I had been working with and he was sitting at his desk with a brown paper bag over his head saying "I'm not here".

Everyone kept coming up to me and shaking my hand saying "congratulations - never seen England play such a good game" etc.

Like you, I had to wonder if we could have been so magnaninous in defeat - somehow I doubted it.

Ruediger - thanks for your thoughts and words of encouragement - I wish I could believe that everyone would be as understanding but on the other hand, why the hell should they?

I was in a bar in Paris last year when England played Scotland at Hampden in the play-off match.

There were a few kilted, ginger-wigged lads in there minding their own business and a number of "bulldog-breed" thugs wearing union jack tee-shirts (when will they ever learn?).

Every time any of the bulldogs went near the bar they walked right up to the Scottish blokes and sang things like God Save the Queen right in their faces. It was very intimidating. I can't help thinking that if we'd lost, all hell would have broken loose.

I'm afraid I couldn't find the words to explain what had been going on to the Polish and Canadian guys I was with, and I gave up trying.

Al From Bromley
09-10-2000, 07:35 PM
its nothing to do with the game. England are 34 years past their sell by date in the "modern game".

ruediger
09-10-2000, 08:05 PM
Why always push the self-destroy button?

BTW: I'v read nearly all national newspapers and most of the major regional titles (that's my job anyway).

There's not even a single paper paying attention to songs or gestures by the English supporters. Instead they're pleased with the way in which this match was conducted by players, officials and spectators.

ruediger
10-10-2000, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Al from Bromley:
"Remember: This is football."

Maybe, but tell me why nearly every other country in the world will support anyone but England when they are playing another country and why the English have such a bad reputation? its BECAUSE of football.
Simple really. Because England have invented the modern game. It's another form of admiration.

You know the quote: We love to hate them.

GodstoneEagle
23-02-2007, 12:00 AM
.

hughff
23-02-2007, 12:27 AM
wtf...

Oliver V
23-02-2007, 12:42 AM
Godstone keeps doing that. It 'amuses' him.