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The Vicar
01-09-2004, 12:40 AM
I support our manager, I support our owner, I support our club, I support our players....

but, the one priority before the transfer deadline needed to be acquiring a quality centre mid. Our biggest problem has been sweating blood to win the ball, and then giving it away far too cheaply.

Our club appears to have failed in accomplishing this important bit of business. That's the reality.

The club needs to analyze why we've failed on this front, in order to not make the same mistakes again.

Was it a lack of single-minded focus on this goal?

Was it a poor scouting network?

Was it an unwillingness to spend the funds required?

Was it a disagreement that this was a priority?

Was it our lack of experience in dealing with the reality of life in the Prem?

Was it our rivals trying to deny us what we need to stay up?

Etc.

What do you think?

Q2thaZ
01-09-2004, 12:42 AM
Don't worry Danny Butterfield will do the job

RDSdaEAGLE
01-09-2004, 01:11 AM
I think it has more to do with the fact that Dowie is showing a greater faith in our existing midfield than the fans would.

However, this is just an assumption, the same as all of the above. We don't, and won't know why it failed until the matter is clarified by Dowie or Jordan.

Old Joe Paxton
01-09-2004, 01:21 AM
Is it not that Dowie & co have been looking for central midfield players but been unable to sign / persuade / target / attract them in time for the deadline? Agree with your sentiments though. Very frustrating and also crucial to get ideally a ball-winner and playmaker.

Although my opinion could be wrong. It's my first post and my nerves could be getting the better of me on my debut ! (Actually was on here years ago under a different nom de plume but thought I would idly spend some insominiac time glancing at the transfers.)

The Vicar
01-09-2004, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Old Joe Paxton
Is it not that Dowie & co have been looking for central midfield players but been unable to sign / persuade / target / attract them in time for the deadline? Agree with your sentiments though. Very frustrating and also crucial to get ideally a ball-winner and playmaker.

Although my opinion could be wrong. It's my first post and my nerves could be getting the better of me on my debut ! (Actually was on here years ago under a different nom de plume but thought I would idly spend some insominiac time glancing at the transfers.)

Welcome back, mate. :lux:

Sussex Eagle
01-09-2004, 01:27 AM
Salif Diao/Kily Gonzalez/Emmanuel Petit deals are not necessarilly uncompleted. I think our first 5 choices or so in midfield are fine, but we do lack competition/backup. We have enough to do ok and make some additions in January, though.

Darlingtoneagle
01-09-2004, 01:27 AM
I think our midfield has performed very well, excellently at times. What I percieve our problem as being is that we are not being clinical up front, it cost us at Everton, and arguably at Boro.

Now I'm not advocating that we just drop AJ, but the added competition for places and extra work on the training pitch and we will be contenders in every game, we cannot ask for more than that.

andy_cpfc
01-09-2004, 01:29 AM
think we were quite unlucky in centre midfield as we bid for a few (cahill, carrick, cisse etc) of which none of them came off. i think one of the problems is that any quality midfielder would have to accept that we will be realistaclly be playing div 1 football next season, therefore better options are available

Sussex Eagle
01-09-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Darlingtoneagle
I think our midfield has performed very well, excellently at times. What I percieve our problem as being is that we are not being clinical up front, it cost us at Everton, and arguably at Boro.

Now I'm not advocating that we just drop AJ, but the added competition for places and extra work on the training pitch and we will be contenders in every game, we cannot ask for more than that.

Some truth in that. With height returning to the front line in Torghelle Ventola and Andrews, we need to ping in a few more crosses, but we haven't been overwhelmed in midfield other than v Chelsea and briefly vs Gravesen

Old Joe Paxton
01-09-2004, 01:34 AM
Ta, Rev.

Thinking more clearly now that the big match nerves have disipated, the points that you listed in your original post probably ALL contributed towards the lack of a midfield signing.

Particularly, the scouting network. In fact the whole club not prepared for promotion months ago and they have appeared not to creak into gear to get things moving. I guess not the infrastructure in terms of scouts and men on the ground.

If the club is reading this, I am available - if they really press me - to trawl around Spain, Italy and France to prepare the ground for signings in time for the grand reopening of the transfer shop in January 2005.

And I will downgrade to 3 star accomodation if they are pressed for finances.

ozeagle
01-09-2004, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Darlingtoneagle

Now I'm not advocating that we just drop AJ

drop AJ ? ?????????
then we'll definitely go down, he's the only one that looks like scoring..
:eek:

daz_eagle
01-09-2004, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Q2thaZ
Don't worry Danny Butterfield will do the job

we need danny b back at RIGHT FULL-BACK asap, not in midfield. boyce isn't a player who we can rely on at right-back for a whole season. danny b is a far superior player.

Ollie Ox
01-09-2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Q2thaZ
Don't worry Danny Butterfield will do the job

To be honest it thionk we need him at fullback, boyce is ok but nothing special

limited_edition
01-09-2004, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by ozeagle
drop AJ ? ?????????
then we'll definitely go down, he's the only one that looks like scoring..
:eek: Well, we couldn't drop your good mate Aki.:rolleyes: He's been nothing short of magnificent.

Diamondeagle
01-09-2004, 06:50 AM
Re strikers we should not be sentimental about dropping AJ. I think he will not always be on top of his game and will need to be taken off or even dropped at some point in the season. It will do him good and he will come back sharper. Good to see we now have several choices for striking partnerships.
However, biggest concern is midfield. I do not agree midfield has performed well this season. We have tackled well and broken up play well but have looked completely devoid of creativity.
My guess is that ID is going to revert ot a long ball game with big striker and knock down to AJ as the only realistic chance we have of staying up therefore negating the need for a creative midfield player.
Prepare for neckache !

Random*
01-09-2004, 06:54 AM
I think the difficulty is that there is some gap between the type of player that we wish to sign, and the type of player that will happily come to an almost odds on club for relegation. The only good persuasion would be an enormous amount of cash, which would only endanger the club's future while not really giving us that greater chance of Premiership survival.

Sussex Eagle
01-09-2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Random*
I think the difficulty is that there is some gap between the type of player that we wish to sign, and the type of player that will happily come to an almost odds on club for relegation. The only good persuasion would be an enormous amount of cash, which would only endanger the club's future while not really giving us that greater chance of Premiership survival.

A very simple point, but very true - few people seem to really get it. That said, there might be room for 1 or 2 big salaried signings (Come on Manu and Kily! Or even Salif)

John C
01-09-2004, 07:13 AM
I hope to see Watson get some sort of role this season.

SKATE
01-09-2004, 07:56 AM
We have always known that this season was going to be a steep learing curve. We seem to have tried and failed to get in a new midfielder. That's life. Kaviedes was brought in as a midfielder IMO -, plus we have Aki, Hughes, Derry, Watson and I think even Ligertwood has the versatility to do a job in there.

Igor Iconic
01-09-2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by John C
I hope to see Watson get some sort of role this season.

I agree with this, however, I can't see where he'd fit in our four man midfield. He could be a more than useful sub especially if we go behind and throw the kitchen sink at them to get the equaliser.

Time
01-09-2004, 08:12 AM
Ballwinner = Aki (player of season so far)

Playmaker = Kaviedes?

Also Sorondo is D/DM C on Champ Manager (please don't hit me)


Of course we need cover but we have players who can fill in, eg. Hall, Derry (whos game is more suited to the Prem), Watson coming through. All is not lost folks.


Ooops nearly forgot Hughes. Player of season last year. Look how he broke from midfield against Boro!

I.Flyer
01-09-2004, 08:14 AM
... and what about Fitz Hall, he is fairly versatile. I know his preferred position but maybe ID is grooming him for a more permanent role in the position he has played so far.

Parker Jnr
01-09-2004, 08:19 AM
As we have signed a defender I think that Hall will feature more in midfield. I think once he has settled he will be very good in that position.

WeeOrangeMonkey
01-09-2004, 08:35 AM
Hall just needs to build the stamina to take him from box to box, he'll be quality then.

Mr Palace
01-09-2004, 08:49 AM
Without doubt our failure to sign a quality midfielder is a f**king disgrace. All this bullsh*t that we were interested in signing a top quality midfielder was no doubt another PR stunt by Jordan.

We've had all summer to strengthen a position that most sensible people agreed we were short in. Aki has done OK but has no creativity; Hall is a centre-back playing out of position (see his quotes in the Croydon Advetiser after signing); Derry is painfully out of his depth; Hughes is great but also is not very creative; and why people bang on about Watson when he did nothing in the First Division is beyond me (I agree that in the future he could become a very good player though). Who will score the goals we need from central midfield?

Our failure is made even worse by the fact we have overloaded with strikers and central defenders (why sign Sorondo and not a left back to take Granville's place?). Our signing of Wayne Andrews capped it off for me. This guy is f**king rubbish. I used to watch him play for St Albans about four years ago and he couldn't trap a bag of cement. He's 26 years of age and has done nothing to date apart from score a handful of goals for Oldham and Colchester. What the hell are we doing signing this type of player when we already have Johnson, Torghelle, Ventola, Kaviedes, Freedman and Shipps?

I'm trying not to be too downbeat about this but after hearing Dowie talking about signing a player that would "raise an eyebrow" I'm very disappointed with our latest transfers. But before anyone slates me, this is not an anti-Dowie message as I think he's the best thing to have happened to this club for a long time. I also admire Jordan but can't help thinking that his unwillingness to part with realistic funds has made Dowie's task of keeping us in the Premiership virtually impossible.

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 08:53 AM
Heads should definitely roll if Granville, Kolkka, Hughes/Aki get injured. How can we justify having 8 central defenders on the book, and only 3 experienced central midfielders, and only one experienced left-back?!:veryangry :eek: :veryangry :eek: :veryangry :eek:

We are STILL weaker than last season's team.

Vaesen or Speroni (Vaesen is better)
Granville
Popovic
Hudson
Butterfield

Kolkka or Gray (Gray is better)
Aki
Hughes
Routledge

AJ
Shipps or Torghelle (Torghelle is better)

Wake up everyone!! Dowie has bought FODDER. He has increased the size of the squad, with average players. Wayne Andrews? What the ?:eek: The guy is not a promising player. He is 26/27!:eek:
We have bought a decent back-up keeper, left-winger, central defenders BUT WE HAVEN'T ACTUALLY IMPROVED THE TEAM!!

All you arse-lickers can say that you trust Dowie. Well I think he's done ok so far, but if you look at this objectively, the lack of a decent left-back and a central midfielder is nothing short of a disgrace. (At least it sounds like we tried to sign a left winger but why if we were prepared to pay that sort of money didn't we try to sign Andy Reid?! It just doesn't make sense):veryangry

lordanton
01-09-2004, 08:59 AM
I don't think midfield is our weakest position (or at least dreadful) at all.

Others have stated this. We have Aki, Hall and Derry. Plus Hughes, Watson and Kaviedes. What's wrong with that?

Left wing was more important, ie Kily Gonzalez, as Kolkka isn't showing his pace.....yet.
Last year we had balance with Routledge and Gray's pace and work. Once Kolkka (or Kily - please have signed late yesterday mate) begins to settle this balance should show. Unfortunately, we haven't got much cover for either - just Black. Kristiansen could play on either wing (?) so would have been good.

And whether we like it or not, Granville is not quite performing well enough at the moment. This actually makes it harder for Kolkka.

And SandownEagle (?) said, we were only after the two loanees, Kily and Clement, plus Andrews late on. We never attempted to buy a new centre midfielder this weekend.

Gerry from Sussex
01-09-2004, 08:59 AM
Steady on Glaziers! Okay, it's hard to disagree that our signings are a little lop sided, but ID has had his work cut out as many of his first choice players (especially in midfield) just weren't interested in coming to Palace. It's a shame, but it's not a disgrace.

Parker Jnr
01-09-2004, 09:00 AM
Stop Moaning! and enjoy it!

zonin2000
01-09-2004, 09:01 AM
Right, that's (seems to be) it.

We're going to need Aki to perform every week, as he has the last two games. We're going to need a rejuvenation from Michael Hughes. If we can get those two firing on all cylinders in the engine room, we'll be fine. As cover, defensively (for Aki I suppose) we have Hall and Derry. Further depth, and options, are provided by Watson and possibly even Kaviedes. I have vehermently put forward the case that Kaviedes is not a central midfielder, certainly not one of two. But if ID and JH can get him to roll his sleves up and work hard, then I'm prepared to go back on what I have said.

Remember, our team, and our whole club now, is built on work ethic and team spirit- not some Eyal Berkovic type threading passes through from midfield.

lordanton
01-09-2004, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by zonin2000
Right, that's (seems to be) it.

We're going to need Aki to perform every week, as he has the last two games. We're going to need a rejuvenation from Michael Hughes. If we can get those two firing on all cylinders in the engine room, we'll be fine. As cover, defensively (for Aki I suppose) we have Hall and Derry. Further depth, and options, are provided by Watson and possibly even Kaviedes. I have vehermently put forward the case that Kaviedes is not a central midfielder, certainly not one of two. But if ID and JH can get him to roll his sleves up and work hard, then I'm prepared to go back on what I have said.

Remember, our team, and our whole club now, is built on work ethic and team spirit- not some Eyal Berkovic type threading passes through from midfield.

Kaviedes can play behind the strikers though. And he makes Berkovic passes.:)

Gerry from Sussex
01-09-2004, 09:06 AM
I think maybe the time has come to put Aki and Derry in side together. Neither are 'creative' as such but are good blockers and can - just about - make the short pass. If we put Kaviedes or Ventola between them and AJ/Torghelle up front we can have the options to either build through the middle or out via the wings. Surely that's the key. If you always have two options in every attack defenders can be stretched because they can defend one or the other, but not both at once.

There, easy isn't it (I wish!!)

zonin2000
01-09-2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by lordanton
Kaviedes can play behind the strikers though. And he makes Berkovic passes.:)

Not though, as one member of a two man midfield. We'd get murdered.

Palace Don
01-09-2004, 09:17 AM
I seem tor remember Ventola playing in deep midfield for Italy at some point?

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by lordanton
I don't think midfield is our weakest position (or at least dreadful) at all.

Others have stated this. We have Aki, Hall and Derry. Plus Hughes, Watson and Kaviedes. What's wrong with that?

Left wing was more important, ie Kily Gonzalez, as Kolkka isn't showing his pace.....yet.


Agree that Granville + Kolkka have been our weakest 2 players so far. BUT THEY ARE FIRST-CHOICE, AND THERE IS NO BACK-UP OR ANY COMPETITION FOR THEM!!

Let's face facts. Since Dowie has been at the club, we have signed 5 players who have a preference for playing centre-back (Boyce, Leigertwood, Hudson, Hall, Sorondo) and 4 players who want to play up front (Kaviedes, Ventola, Torghelle, Andrews).

The only other signings were replacement goalkeepers and a replacement for Gray! What a joke!

marky1919
01-09-2004, 09:19 AM
Was it too many questions from you?

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Gerry from Sussex
Steady on Glaziers! Okay, it's hard to disagree that our signings are a little lop sided, but ID has had his work cut out as many of his first choice players (especially in midfield) just weren't interested in coming to Palace. It's a shame, but it's not a disgrace.

I know what you are saying, but it seems we buy another centre-back or striker every time we fail to land a left-back, left-winger or a central midfielder!! :hmph:

What I don't like is it means players get played out of position, and either these newcomers keep out a natural central midfield player who has worked his balls off to get Palace into the Premiership even though the new guy is no better, or they end up sitting on the bench/in the reserves whilst we pay their no doubt higher wages + transfer fees. There are no prizes for having a better squad. Only for having a better team out there, and sadly it hasn't happened.

Not only that, but our squad has grown in numbers by about 10 players and yet we still have no cover on the let-hand side of defence/midfield! What a waste!

Micky Droy
01-09-2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by lordanton
I don't think midfield is our weakest position (or at least dreadful) at all.

Others have stated this. We have Aki, Hall and Derry. Plus Hughes, Watson and Kaviedes. What's wrong with that?



Aki - Not up to the standard, or anywhere near (come on - Chelsea's midfield swatted him without even blinking, despite his tigerish efforts)

Hall - Not a midfielder and looks a fish out of water there (though he'll grow and looks like he has the talent to play in the prem)

Derry - A first division / Championship mixer.

Hughes - has the skill level, the passing ability and the physique. The only one of the lot who could hold his own, though age may mean a full season is beyond him.

Watson - Can it be accident that he hasn't been introduced to first team football properly yet? Clearly the club feel he's too green at this stage.

Kaviedes - Not a midfielder, and from early signs far too lightweight to hold a premiership midfield at the gates.

That, as I see it, is what's wrong with the centre of midfield. It's been made clearer by the way teams have swamped us in the middle of the park - Everton included for periods - denying us position, and meaning that we panic and resort to hoofing it up to Wayne or AJ or whoever else is about 5 foot 8".

That's why there's general worry across the BBS, because we're seasoned enough watchers of football that despite our love for the club we realise that we'll struggle with this problem hindering us.

That's not to attach blame - we're realising that the hype is true and this league is harder than it ever was - we just lost by one goal to a side with Medieta Hasselbank and Viduka, not to mention dear old Gareth and several other stars - and this is just bloody Middlesborough.

Every week we'll play top top players. Our lads will adjust, and we will pick up points, and all is not lost. But the mid-midfield is going to trouble us for long periods of games.

andy m
01-09-2004, 09:34 AM
We needed a better squad than we had, and that had to be achieved first. There's no point in buying the worlds best midfielder if injuries in every other position means he's the only one with any ability playing. However, we should have realised that all you need is two players for every position and, when you take into account versatile players like Leigertwood, we already have that in defence. Up front, we've already got AJ, Torghelle, Kaviedes, Dougie and Shipps to come back, and we did have Williams until we swapped like for like + cash. In midfield, however, we are short. I'm quite happy to give a first choice midfield of Wayne, Aki, Hughesy and Kolkka a go until January, but what happens if one of them gets injured? Black, Derry, Watson and, erm? I know Dowie's been frustrated in his attempts to buy the quality player we're all looking for, but what about just getting some cover?!?

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Micky Droy
Aki - Not up to the standard, or anywhere near (come on - Chelsea's midfield swatted him without even blinking, despite his tigerish efforts)

Hall - Not a midfielder and looks a fish out of water there (though he'll grow and looks like he has the talent to play in the prem)

Derry - A first division / Championship mixer.

Hughes - has the skill level, the passing ability and the physique. The only one of the lot who could hold his own, though age may mean a full season is beyond him.

Watson - Can it be accident that he hasn't been introduced to first team football properly yet? Clearly the club feel he's too green at this stage.

Kaviedes - Not a midfielder, and from early signs far too lightweight to hold a premiership midfield at the gates.

That, as I see it, is what's wrong with the centre of midfield. It's been made clearer by the way teams have swamped us in the middle of the park - Everton included for periods - denying us position, and meaning that we panic and resort to hoofing it up to Wayne or AJ or whoever else is about 5 foot 8".

That's why there's general worry across the BBS, because we're seasoned enough watchers of football that despite our love for the club we realise that we'll struggle with this problem hindering us.

That's not to attach blame - we're realising that the hype is true and this league is harder than it ever was - we just lost by one goal to a side with Medieta Hasselbank and Viduka, not to mention dear old Gareth and several other stars - and this is just bloody Middlesborough.

Every week we'll play top top players. Our lads will adjust, and we will pick up points, and all is not lost. But the mid-midfield is going to trouble us for long periods of games.

Agree totally. But let me add:

Granville - too many mistakes so far. No real options for cover
Kolkka - right-footed left-winger. Has done ok but no cover if he gets injured!

It's a farce.

L'head Eagle
01-09-2004, 09:35 AM
We needed a quality midfielder. We know it, Dowie knows it, Jordan knows it, everyone knows it !!!

I am sure Dowie has been desperatley trying to get someone in at this position. The fact the matter is nobody of any note wants to come unless they get a wheelbarrow full of cash.

We have what we have now the transfer window is shut. I have to admit I have not been entirley convinced by our new signings so far, but it is still early. I think we are missing that spark, which would usually come from a dynamic midfielder. But on the positive side this spark could come from other positions. Torghelle has something about him and could go on to be a new focus for the team. The 2 loans from Inter could also be that spark.

We are a largly an unknown quantity to rival managers. If they stop AJ, they stop Palace is what they might assume. With a new focus for the side from the players I have mentioned we may get a couple of results.

Time will tell if our midfield is our downfall (at least until January). I hope I am wrong but what I have seen the midfield is well below the standard for this league. But Dowie can perform amazing things with players and he will be sure to get the best of what we have got.

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by andy m
We needed a better squad than we had, and that had to be achieved first. There's no point in buying the worlds best midfielder if injuries in every other position means he's the only one with any ability playing.

Because we have plenty of numbers who can cover in midfield like Butterfield and Leigertwood, Derry, but there is simply not enough quality. There was no point in buying Sorondo unless he is a first-team player AND better than Hall for example because the money would have been better spent on improving other areas of the team + a lot more significantly.

Oxford Eagle
01-09-2004, 09:47 AM
I would have greed with you pessimists before, but actually, this kind of makes sense. You need to have 2 or 3 forwards on the field, so you need 4 to 6 on the books to keep them covered. Similarly, if you want to play 4 at the back, you need 8 defenders. Its only by being able to have competition for *every* place (inc. great performers like AJ) that you can guarantee a certain degree of competition.

Buying that many strikers and defenders isn't a bad thing.

I do, of course, think we needed back-up for our unsupported players (Wayne, Joonas, Hughesy et al) but lets see how it all pans out.

This funny strategy, btw, kept Brum up....

smileysmith
01-09-2004, 09:49 AM
FFS :rolleyes:

lordanton
01-09-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Micky Droy
Aki - Not up to the standard, or anywhere near (come on - Chelsea's midfield swatted him without even blinking, despite his tigerish efforts)

Hall - Not a midfielder and looks a fish out of water there (though he'll grow and looks like he has the talent to play in the prem)


I agree with the bit about playing top quality sides with quality players........but this is bot right at all.

Aki has been arguably our best player so far this season. Hall has been at times very, very good (i'm glad you spoke of his potential :) )

Flappy Chicken
01-09-2004, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by smileysmith
FFS :rolleyes:

Have to agree with you!

Guys lets just get behind the team, give them support and try and enjoy the season. What's done is done, all valid points etc but come on the transfer window is now shut. Lets turn the Selhurst morgue into a fortress.

jan
01-09-2004, 10:03 AM
What does IMOH mean.

Clapham Grand
01-09-2004, 10:11 AM
It's not as if we didn't try to get some midfielders in was it?

Micky Droy
01-09-2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by lordanton
I agree with the bit about playing top quality sides with quality players........but this is bot right at all.

Aki has been arguably our best player so far this season. Hall has been at times very, very good (i'm glad you spoke of his potential :) )

All part of the joys of watching football isn't it...

Don't get me wrong I love the crazy blonde, and I can see his effort is outstanding. Also - if your view turns out to be right and mine wrong over the season I'll be chuffed to be mistaken.

IMOH = In my honest opinion

Clapham Grand
01-09-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Micky Droy
Aki - Not up to the standard, or anywhere near (come on - Chelsea's midfield swatted him without even blinking, despite his tigerish efforts)



Laughable. How wrong can you be? I take it you weren't at the Boro game either?:rolleyes:

lordanton
01-09-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Clapham Grand
It's not as if we didn't try to get some midfielders in was it?

You prob know more than us.

We all know Kily was a close one.

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Oxford Eagle
I would have greed with you pessimists before, but actually, this kind of makes sense. You need to have 2 or 3 forwards on the field, so you need 4 to 6 on the books to keep them covered. Similarly, if you want to play 4 at the back, you need 8 defenders. Its only by being able to have competition for *every* place (inc. great performers like AJ) that you can guarantee a certain degree of competition.

Buying that many strikers and defenders isn't a bad thing.

I do, of course, think we needed back-up for our unsupported players (Wayne, Joonas, Hughesy et al) but lets see how it all pans out.

This funny strategy, btw, kept Brum up....

We haven't got cover for left-back either:eek:

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Clapham Grand
It's not as if we didn't try to get some midfielders in was it?

No I agree we did. But maybe we should have spent even more time trying to get midfielders in and less time on getting Andrews, Sorondo and Ventola in??

Daddy Long
01-09-2004, 10:24 AM
Aki has been magnificent so far this season. I do worry that he will burn himself out though. Surely he can't keep up this level of effort for an entire season?

Time
01-09-2004, 10:31 AM
For me it seems that Dowie does not agree with the general amateur-at-best, mindless-at-worst consensus on the BBS. He has been quoted that he feels we need to be better in both penalty areas. Now I'm no Sherlock but this seems to be why he has gone out to fix those two areas with the utmost urgency. I can't believe there hasn't been more jubilation over the capture of Ventola, the guy is AWESOME. Pacey, powerful, fantastic in the air - the guy was made for this league! As has been stated by some of the better informed members on here the all-singing, all-dancing midfield playmaking dynamo is not going to come to a newly promoted Premiership club. It's not as if we can accuse ID of not trying to get in such a player, re Cahill/Carrick. Instead we must rely on our current player of the year Michael Hughes (who don't forget is one of the few members of our squad with Premiership experience) and the blonde-bombshell encapsulation of Dowie/Harbin footballing philosophy that is Aki. It could be a lot worse.

ebyeeckeagle
01-09-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Daddy Long
Aki has been magnificent so far this season. I do worry that he will burn himself out though. Surely he can't keep up this level of effort for an entire season?

Not with internationals as well. I don't see that we have a proper replacement for Aki, who is (early days) proving himself in the Prem as many of us hoped and thought :p

However, Hall has the potential to grow into the role and maybe Sorondo can do a job there too.

And when we play the lesser lights like Charlton, Derry will be fine. :)

Gooders
01-09-2004, 10:50 AM
It is disappointing.

But the simple fact is that there just aren't many decent midfielders available at the moment.

Andy Reid? FFS. :rolleyes:

Forest have already turned down 5 million from Tottenham and God alone knows what sort of wages he thinks he's deserving of, but you can bet it'll be a lot more than we can afford.

How many clubs were in for Carrick? How quickly did he make it clear that he wasn't interested in joining us?

Cahill? Who knows what went on there but everyone agrees that he was never going to join us either (and frankly, if he's the best "playmaker" we could aspire to then we might as well not bother because he won't keep us up).

Kily Gonzales and Petit? Were these serious attempted deals? If they were then Dowie has done all he can to strengthen us in midfield, probably at prices that we cannot really afford.

Get ready for "direct" football, because clearly that is going to have to be the strategy, until January at least.

zonin2000
01-09-2004, 11:07 AM
Time - very good and valid point.

Gooders - I think the Andy Reid suggestion came about after reports that we had agreed a 6m fee with Inter for Kily, making Reid a not quite so unrealistic target.

Anybody that has criticised Aki - Get down to Selhurst soon and watch this guy, he has been phenomenal so far. Not a foot wrong against Boro.

As for Wayne Andrews, well it is a strange one. But is there a possibility that it was Colchester who initiated the deal and not us? I know he is their star striker, but to get Williams in (presumably on a long term contract), in exchange for a player out of contract at the end of the season, well that's good business.

AndyStreet
01-09-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by glaziers fan
Heads should definitely roll if Granville, Kolkka, Hughes/Aki get injured. How can we justify having 8 central defenders on the book, and only 3 experienced central midfielders, and only one experienced left-back?!:veryangry :eek: :veryangry :eek: :veryangry :eek:

Wake up everyone!! Dowie has bought FODDER. He has increased the size of the squad, with average players. Wayne Andrews? What the ?:eek: The guy is not a promising player. He is 26/27!:eek:
We have bought a decent back-up keeper, left-winger, central defenders BUT WE HAVEN'T ACTUALLY IMPROVED THE TEAM!!

All you arse-lickers can say that you trust Dowie. Well I think he's done ok so far, but if you look at this objectively, the lack of a decent left-back and a central midfielder is nothing short of a disgrace. (At least it sounds like we tried to sign a left winger but why if we were prepared to pay that sort of money didn't we try to sign Andy Reid?! It just doesn't make sense):veryangry

Dowie's done ok?! He got us promoted from a relegation threatened position. Call me an arse-licker if you like, but I'd prefer that to being a twat with his head up his own arse like yourself. That you are completely ignorant about the players we have brought in speaks more about your own lack of knowledge rather than being an indictment against Dowie's transfer policy. The recommendation of Andy Reid, widely tipped to go to Spurs and rated at around 5million, is nothing short of preposterous - but that's about what I'd expect from somebody with as comical analysis and knowledge as yourself.

tsunamiman
01-09-2004, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by glaziers fan
We haven't got cover for left-back either:eek:

I think borrowdale is good enough as back up. Only back up mind. Same as boyce. Good enough as back up but only back up.

Shoreditch CPFC
01-09-2004, 12:42 PM
according to HOL we are are still looking at signing an out of contract midfielder, but Dowie has to Ship out 4 players first. My guesses if this is true are:

In: Petit

Out: Dougie, Shipps, Black, Powell

Mad Raschic Ken
01-09-2004, 12:45 PM
If we continue to play with wingers we cannot afford to have a fancy playmaker in the middle - we're simply not good enough for that luxury. We will need to contine to play two defensively minded midfielders in the majority of games or our defence will be overrun.

If we do decide to do away with the wingers we could play three more defensive midfielders with someone like Routledge or Kaviedes behind the front two, but the idea of a midfield consisting of Routledge, Kolkka, Aki (or someone like him) and a playmaker who doesn't track back and tackle much is not very attractive.

Daddy Long
01-09-2004, 12:48 PM
Bloke on the HOL site seems very sure of himself:

"The essence of which is that apparently it is amazing the effect that a closed transfer window has on the demands of out of work players and their agents.

A midfielder is coming and possibly a very good one at that.

However, we have to shift at least 4 players out to accommodate him. (Which could explain our surfeit of strikers if Shipps and The Doog are on their way)"

Popester
01-09-2004, 12:54 PM
Does Trolley post on HOL?

Officer Dibble
01-09-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Shoreditch CPFC
according to HOL we are are still looking at signing an out of contract midfielder, but Dowie has to Ship out 4 players first. My guesses if this is true are:

In: Petit

Out: Dougie, Shipps, Black, Powell

that's spot on. Liegartwood is the olny alternative to those four.

DaveTuttles
01-09-2004, 12:57 PM
There is still time for a quality out of contract player to arrive. One with experience

Zohar Returns
01-09-2004, 12:57 PM
Personaly I think we need a quality striker up front with A.J that can hold the ball up and wait for support from midfield. That is what we have been missing (IMO).

Daddy Long
01-09-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Officer Dibble
that's spot on. Liegartwood is the olny alternative to those four.

Mikele isn't going anywhere - he is versatile. Mr Dowie likes that.

nomad
01-09-2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by RDSdaEAGLE
I think it has more to do with the fact that Dowie is showing a greater faith in our existing midfield than the fans would.

However, this is just an assumption, the same as all of the above. We don't, and won't know why it failed until the matter is clarified by Dowie or Jordan.

If he is showing faith in our existing midfield, why has he not given Ben Watson a chance ever since he became manager? I am a great fan of ID, but I think he is wrong in this instance. I know it is a steep learning curve in the Premiership, but we should play Ben for at least part of a game and see how he gets on.

The reason that we cannot get a quality midfielder is either because they don't want to come to a club that is going to struggle in the Premiership, or SJ will not pay agents fees.

The Vicar
01-09-2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Daddy Long
Bloke on the HOL site seems very sure of himself:

"The essence of which is that apparently it is amazing the effect that a closed transfer window has on the demands of out of work players and their agents.

A midfielder is coming and possibly a very good one at that.

"

I don't understand what this means. Out of work players and agents don't have to worry about the transfer window, do they? Doesn't it make these players more valuable because the window has closed and they are in greater demand? So they could end up costing us more?

Flappy Chicken
01-09-2004, 01:05 PM
This is what the geezer posted on HOL:

Quote Big Cliff Holton RIP at 01 Sep 2004 1:21pm

I originally posted this on the Wayne Andrews topic to cheer someone up. But I think it will be more at home here;

I am fortunate that my gloom and despondancy has been lifted by a conversation this morning.

The essence of which is that apparently it is amazing the effect that a closed transfer window has on the demands of out of work players and their agents.

A midfielder is coming and possibly a very good one at that.

However, we have to shift at least 4 players out to accommodate him. (Which could explain our surfeit of strikers if Shipps and The Doog are on their way)

I'm a happy bunny again - and don't even ask me the source - simply check my mood in my before and after 10.30am posts today then either believe or ignore as you see fit.
-------------------------

Are you Trolley in disguise?

Big-Griff
01-09-2004, 01:45 PM
People we all have one thing in common "the red n blue Army", now if that is our common bond and now that "the window" is closed lets back the team we have,maybe there is a bossman waiting to save us??,maybe not ,but you can all rest asured that come the end of may if we have played the master card and pulled it off you will all be full of joy, where as if we go down(plse god no!) i will still be proud of what ID,SJ and the team have given me,we should not even be in the prem....we mugged the irons and the rest is history,so stop bitchin and back the finest club in world football coz as you all know life is a roller coaster in se25,and come what may IM PALACE TILL I DIE!:lux:

Daddy Long
01-09-2004, 01:49 PM
I suspect that Agents don't work too hard for their out of contract players during the transfer window, but as soon as it closes they become an agent's bread and butter and command more attention.

Ralph
01-09-2004, 02:40 PM
I assume that a player who would normally raise a few eyebrows has been turning us down but now the fact the window has closed he's getting scared that most clubs will have completed their signings and he's out of work...still.

ANDYEAGLE
01-09-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Ralph
I assume that a player who would normally raise a few eyebrows has been turning us down but now the fact the window has closed he's getting scared that most clubs will have completed their signings and he's out of work...still.

Really wants to play for us then? sign him anyway.

Ralph
01-09-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by ANDYEAGLE
Really wants to play for us then? sign him anyway.

We're probably the least desirable Premiership club.

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by AndyStreet
Dowie's done ok?! He got us promoted from a relegation threatened position. Call me an arse-licker if you like, but I'd prefer that to being a twat with his head up his own arse like yourself. That you are completely ignorant about the players we have brought in speaks more about your own lack of knowledge rather than being an indictment against Dowie's transfer policy. The recommendation of Andy Reid, widely tipped to go to Spurs and rated at around 5million, is nothing short of preposterous - but that's about what I'd expect from somebody with as comical analysis and knowledge as yourself.

Charming! Sorry I'm not knowledgable about the players we are bringing in, except that I know one is a central defender and another one is a striker! Maybe you could fill me in?

As for Andy Reid, did he go to Spurs?? Have we got 5m to spend? We bid 6m for Sorondo + Gonzalez so I would assume we have! How friendly you are!

cpfc_spc1982
01-09-2004, 03:41 PM
im hoping watson might get a few games.

glaziers fan
01-09-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by cpfc_spc1982
im hoping watson might get a few games.

Me too:)

selhurst star
01-09-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by The Vicar
I support our manager, I support our owner, I support our club, I support our players....

but, the one priority before the transfer deadline needed to be acquiring a quality centre mid. Our biggest problem has been sweating blood to win the ball, and then giving it away far too cheaply.

Our club appears to have failed in accomplishing this important bit of business. That's the reality.

The club needs to analyze why we've failed on this front, in order to not make the same mistakes again.

Was it a lack of single-minded focus on this goal?

Was it a poor scouting network?

Was it an unwillingness to spend the funds required?

Was it a disagreement that this was a priority?

Was it our lack of experience in dealing with the reality of life in the Prem?

Was it our rivals trying to deny us what we need to stay up?

Etc.

What do you think?





Stop Whining.

PalacefaninRome
01-09-2004, 10:21 PM
I feel the need to say that we signed Nicola Ventola, he's the missing link between the midfield and attack for this season... give him a few games to catch up (as the Italian league starts in a few weeks yet so he might not be fully match fit) and he'll keep us up! He's got a good eye for goal, can keep the ball and last leason on loan to Siena made Enrico Chiesa and Tore Andre Flo (remember him at Chelsea, not a bad player at all) look second rate!
This said, never forget last season, always trust Ian Dowie!

cpfc_spc1982
01-09-2004, 10:23 PM
i thought flo was keeping him out the team for quite a while.

PalacefaninRome
01-09-2004, 10:25 PM
For a while...

The Vicar
01-09-2004, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by PalacefaninRome
I feel the need to say that we signed Nicola Ventola, he's the missing link between the midfield and attack for this season... give him a few games to catch up (as the Italian league starts in a few weeks yet so he might not be fully match fit) and he'll keep us up! He's got a good eye for goal, can keep the ball and last leason on loan to Siena made Enrico Chiesa and Tore Andre Flo (remember him at Chelsea, not a bad player at all) look second rate!
This said, never forget last season, always trust Ian Dowie!

Interesting and encouraging. Could he function well as an attacking midfielder?

He's a very good signing in my opinion...if AJ or Torghelle get hurt or suspended, we need quality up front.

The Vicar
01-09-2004, 11:15 PM
selhurst star
Offline 01-09-2004 09:05 PM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

The Vicar
12-09-2004, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by The Vicar
I support our manager, I support our owner, I support our club, I support our players....

but, the one priority before the transfer deadline needed to be acquiring a quality centre mid. Our biggest problem has been sweating blood to win the ball, and then giving it away far too cheaply.

Our club appears to have failed in accomplishing this important bit of business. That's the reality.

The club needs to analyze why we've failed on this front, in order to not make the same mistakes again.

Was it a lack of single-minded focus on this goal?

Was it a poor scouting network?

Was it an unwillingness to spend the funds required?

Was it a disagreement that this was a priority?

Was it our lack of experience in dealing with the reality of life in the Prem?

Was it our rivals trying to deny us what we need to stay up?

Etc.

What do you think?

After today's match v. Portsmouth, couldn't resist bumping up this thread again.

Windom Earle
12-09-2004, 09:32 AM
The problem is playing two holding players. One a centre back!

Dowie has shown a distint lack of confidence in Hughes/Derry and a lack of balls in playing hall in midfield.

Boyandy
12-09-2004, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Micky Droy
Aki - Not up to the standard, or anywhere near (come on - Chelsea's midfield swatted him without even blinking, despite his tigerish efforts)


What a load of crap - Aki has been our best player this season.

Who do you think we could have got in that wouldn't have struggled against the likes of Lampard and Cole?

John C
12-09-2004, 10:36 AM
Dowie brought Hall as a midfield player. He sees Hall as a box-to-box player. Can't see this. Surely Watson fits into this mould?

Windom Earle
12-09-2004, 10:47 AM
If dowie has bought him as a midfielder he should be in competition with Aki for a place. Not playing next to him. Neither have the creativity. Meaning our midfield doesn't have the creativity needed. If he's a midfielder its Hall or Aki. Then Hughes or Derry or Watson as the other centre mid!

modernsouler
12-09-2004, 09:26 PM
Ben watson started 7 league games last year the first three games of the season when we went top, three other games which we drew and watford away won 5-1 why does he not get a game?

Braders
12-09-2004, 09:55 PM
Must admit i cannot understand why Ben Watson is not being given a chance.:confused:

Sir.S.C Remembered
12-09-2004, 10:25 PM
Butterfield is a right back simple as! He can do a job in central midfield but he is not a premiership week in week out central midfielder...!

Great Lombardi
12-09-2004, 10:38 PM
I think everyone realises that our lack of a central midfielder is going to prove very costly. We should have coughed up some form of transfer fee for Cisse, who isn't great but is better that what we have.

cpfc_spc1982
12-09-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Braders
Must admit i cannot understand why Ben Watson is not being given a chance.:confused:

not even playing centre midfield for the reserves either at the moment.

Ian Hart
12-09-2004, 11:34 PM
Anyone watching the Portsmouth game couldn't fail to notice the enormous disparity between the two sets of midfielders in terms of the quality of passing. Running around a lot and working hard will never be enough on their own in this league. You only had to watch how Bercovic used the ball - both short and long - to see what we so badly miss. We had plenty of possession at times, but we simply don't have the players of sufficient quality to find our players in space (in fact, most of the time we failed to find our players at all, in space or not!)

Bercovic is far from being the best midfielder in the division - there are probably 30 or 40 better than him - but he demostrated so clearly the type of player we're missing. People blame Routledge and Kolkka for contributing little, but if the central midfielders aren't skillful enough to deliver them quality balls into space, our two wide men will continue to be impotent. Until we get someone of quality in to solve that major defect in our team, we will inevitably go through games creating little.

maestro
12-09-2004, 11:46 PM
Agree with what uve said Ian Hart, its just a lack of quality and imagination we have in central midfield.

For example how many times did was the ball in the air being headed back and forward, when it went to a palace player, they would just head it as far forward as possible, the Portsmouth players directed there headers to team mates and kept the ball, this happened so many times and was just one example, it was the difference between the two midfied units.

We can pass the ball though, remember reading away last year, very neat passing and I remember it all came through Hughes, I think he has to play, u could see that when the ball came to him he had the quality to control or one touch pass it and keep possesion.

I can see what Ian dowie is tryign to do using to anchor man but being defensive puts u under more pressure when u keep giving the ball away, I also think Routledge and kolkka need to get a bit narrower when we havent got the ball, otherwis the other team had too much space like on sarurday

sydnsteve
13-09-2004, 09:36 AM
Aki has done brilliantly in midfield, but we need Hughes in there. I just cannot understand Dowie's obsession with playing Hall in midfield. He does 3 or 4 good things in a game, then disappears. Hughes did more in 5 mins than Hall. Our midfield has to be Hughes and Aki. They are by far the best we have, and if they aren't good enough we've had it as there isn't anyone else.
If Dowie has promised Hall 1st team footie ha has to either go at RB or CB instead of Own Goal Poppo.

Panther
13-09-2004, 10:38 AM
Haven't seen the Pompey game but what Ian Hart says rings true (and would have rung true in many a previous season!). Given that Hughes was a major reason why we won promotion it is beyond me why he has been left out to make way for someone whose career hitherto has been as a centre half, and mostly in a lower division at that. It seems to me that we have enough problems with bedding in new players without breaking up one of last year's more successful partnerships (ie Aki/Hughes) esp since it appears to have resulted in one that isn't as good.

Disco
13-09-2004, 11:47 AM
While Hughes is being mentioned, I felt that he did well when he came on, and retained posession quite well. Think he's got to be worth a shout to start soon. Also looking forward to Butts pushing for a place. Herd before it takes about 6 games to settle into premiership football, lets hope we're starting to feel a little more comfortable soon.

pattaya pete
13-09-2004, 01:43 PM
IMHO,we cannot afford to play Kolka and Routledge,too much width in this division. I would go with: Speroni/Kiraly
Boyce Hall POPA Granville
AKI
Hughes Kolka
Ventona
AJ Sandor
Subs. GK? Derry Routledge Hudson Kavides

stinky
15-09-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by pattaya pete
IMHO,we cannot afford to play Kolka and Routledge,too much width in this division. I would go with: Speroni/Kiraly
Boyce Hall POPA Granville
AKI
Hughes Kolka
Ventona
AJ Sandor
Subs. GK? Derry Routledge Hudson Kavides


You'd play Kolkka and not Routledge?! In my opinion, if this formation were ever played, stick Hughes where you have Kolkka (seeing as he's played left mid in the past), and stick Routledge out on the right where you have Hughes now

Ron Dogers
15-09-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Boyandy
What a load of crap - Aki has been our best player this season.

Who do you think we could have got in that wouldn't have struggled against the likes of Lampard and Cole?

Anyone else notice the way Berger beat Aki to the ball and then more worringly ran quite a way and shot for their 2nd goal without Aki getting back to chase.

+ Even more worring, Speroni looks the most un-confident and confused goalie since Jim Leighton in the cup-final. He makes a few decent saves but never seems to boss his area. Robert Green really gave the Norwich defence confidence against Spurs and it ran through the team whereas I really don't think the centre 3 (Speroni, Popps and Hudson )are working at the moment?

Player of the season so far is either Boyce or Sandy IMHO

pattaya pete
15-09-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by stinky
You'd play Kolkka and not Routledge?! In my opinion, if this formation were ever played, stick Hughes where you have Kolkka (seeing as he's played left mid in the past), and stick Routledge out on the right where you have Hughes now I'd play either OR,I'm not convinced that either are contributing enough,you may have noticed Kolka can use either boot.Hughes is as you say able to play left which would enable us to mix it up a bit rather than opposition defence/management reading our team sheet knowing our wing approach/lack of mid strength.They know our gameplan before KO.A bit of guile is needed.

Basingstoke Eagle
15-09-2004, 02:12 PM
Hall has to play in defence in place of either Poppy or Hudson....Kiraly deserves a chance....Watson must come into midfield because he is the only creative midfielder we have,keep Aki as the holding player & swap hughes for Kolkka cos he is pants...keep the front two as they are but id try Sandor & Ventola together sometime with AJ moving to the wing.