PDA

View Full Version : Kaviedes can't hack it


Psychokiller
30-11-2004, 08:20 AM
Says in the Sun that he's buggering off back to Ecuador. Shame that, I thought he had potential.

Fatman
30-11-2004, 08:23 AM
like others we haven't seen enough of them to make a judgement, I know everyone is saying that we should give him, Lakis, Torgelle et al a chance, but realistically I don't think you can drop any member of the first team the way we're playing at the moment

etu
30-11-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Psychokiller
Says in the Sun

Well quite. Forgive me if for the time being I say "seeing is believing"

jazman
30-11-2004, 08:54 AM
And we believe everything that the Sun says don't we!

eagle mart
30-11-2004, 08:59 AM
I wonder where they got that story from!?

Funny, that it appears the day after the thread that was banging about yesterday.

Psychokiller
30-11-2004, 09:02 AM
Just relaying what I've read! It seems logical.

Steve C
30-11-2004, 09:14 AM
I just read that as well, it would be a shame IMHO.:(

Igor Iconic
30-11-2004, 09:14 AM
Our new Ecuadorian friends didn't seem to think this was happening yesterday. Watch this space for their input.

redandblue
30-11-2004, 09:15 AM
TH Sun is rarely wrong on football goss

Radders
30-11-2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by redandblue
TH Sun is rarely wrong on football goss

Very true!

It would be a shame if he could not hack it over here but at least we didn't splashout millions for him if this is the case.

Webb
30-11-2004, 09:45 AM
We all knew from the off, Dowie included, the Kaviedes would be a gamble, and he has got an obvious outstanding natural ability for the game. That much I've picked up in the short time and the few number of games I've seen him play (Chelsea and Everton home games), but sadly he may not of settled and from all accounts his attitude isn't quite spot on. A pity the gamble didn't pay off, if he is going.

Freddy Kurz
30-11-2004, 09:52 AM
Kaviedes agent usually attends home Reserve games when Ivan plays,
so if he's in the team tonight for the Combination game v Ipswich T.
at Selhurst it should be possible to find out the up-to-date position.

cpfcben
30-11-2004, 09:54 AM
not in the squad apparently.

BW_Palace
30-11-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by Radders
Very true!

It would be a shame if he could not hack it over here but at least we didn't splashout millions for him if this is the case.

You're kidding right? (About the Sun)

Scroatey
30-11-2004, 10:14 AM
To help you all, there's already a thread on this as the "news" broke yesterday: http://forums.cpfc.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96031

Several of our Ecudorian contingent including a close friend/adviser of the player claim this is complete rubbish!

Kaviedes_Fan
30-11-2004, 10:16 AM
Are you sure that Kaviedes is in Ecuador???

Kaviedes_Fan
30-11-2004, 10:20 AM
Psychokiller...could you post the link to the Sun in order to read all the article about this news???

GreatGonzo
30-11-2004, 10:21 AM
If he is not in Equador then he really should be in the squad tonight unless there is a problem.

Batsta
30-11-2004, 10:22 AM
Dowie had every Intention to use Kaviedes, but we switched to 4-5-1 which meant Kavy can't or wont get In the team.

Nelson Muntz
30-11-2004, 10:24 AM
Be a shame if he goes now, I'd liked to have seen him pass before he left.

Webb
30-11-2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Kaviedes_Fan
Psychokiller...could you post the link to the Sun in order to read all the article about this news???

Here it is (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2002390000-2004552410,00.html). Just a little snippet at the bottom of the page. Nothing much really.

Kaviedes_Fan
30-11-2004, 10:28 AM
Thanks but I don't understand why he is leaving despite he is not in the first team.

ANDYEAGLE
30-11-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Batsta
Dowie had every Intention to use Kaviedes, but we switched to 4-5-1 which meant Kavy can't or wont get In the team.

I thought that Dowie had the ideal opportunity to use him in the cup game against Charlton and he only made the subs bench then.
Personally think he is to lightweight from the times I watched him in the reserves. The guy has obvious skill but not suited to our game in the UK imo.

Farawayeagle
30-11-2004, 10:45 AM
Oh I see --- it's in The Sun.

Must be true........ not!!:)

Benzhiyi
30-11-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by redandblue
TH Sun is rarely wrong on football goss

ROFL!!!! :D :D :D :D

gold76
30-11-2004, 12:41 PM
Sounds plausible & would be a shame if true as his talent is there for all to see. I read the sun but it's cocked up in the past, remember they said we'd signed Terry Phelan for big money & Duncan Ferguson from Dundee United!

Clapham Grand
30-11-2004, 01:14 PM
not in tomorrow's reserve squad - where on earth is he?!

Ruskin Old Boy
30-11-2004, 01:22 PM
Lay long odds that the Sun got the story from here

Sussex Eagle
30-11-2004, 02:10 PM
If this wasn't just a recycle of yesterday's thread (which turned out to be incorrect) I'd have thought there'd be some kind of detail. Don't believe it.

SpikeyMatt
30-11-2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Nelson Muntz
Be a shame if he goes now, I'd liked to have seen him pass before he left.

:D

B the Bad ©
02-12-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Nelson Muntz
Be a shame if he goes now, I'd liked to have seen him pass before he left.


If you had turned up to one of his earlier reserve games, you would have seen that his passing is somewhat brilliant. Not to mention his vision.

cpfc_spc1982
02-12-2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by B the Bad ©
If you had turned up to one of his earlier reserve games, you would have seen that his passing is somewhat brilliant. Not to mention his vision.

what game are you referring to there.

B the Bad ©
02-12-2004, 07:22 PM
Charlton. His first touch (and first touch passing) was sublime, knocking the ball down with his chest and shoulder to team mates. He played one or two brilliant 50 yard balls. His simple play was great. That cross where he kept the ball from going out of touch, was also, "brilliant".

Sometimes I wonder if people actually watch the damn game or not.

:confused:

saxo_demon22
02-12-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Clapham Grand
not in tomorrow's reserve squad - where on earth is he?!

Ecuador

Farawayeagle
02-12-2004, 11:31 PM
He's not in Ecuador, He's training with the Palace team.

Straight from the club's mouth!!!!!:p :p

Ollie Ox
03-12-2004, 09:16 AM
All a load of tosh according to todays Dowie in todays Adder, Ivan is still at Palace

montstar
03-12-2004, 09:29 AM
hes not in ecuador and not leaving from dowie on the bbc site:

Meanwhile, Dowie insists that Ivan Kaviedes is not leaving Selhurst Park, even though he admits the Ecuador forward has struggled to settle in England.

"He's not adapted as quickly as we would have liked but that's the risk you take," he said.

"But his fitness is improving and we'll see how he goes. We hope to get him a reserve game next week and get him where we think he can be."

Bartman
27-12-2004, 06:57 PM
Ivan has failed to settle and is going to be leaving by mutual consent in January. Doesn't have the work ethic. All according to a club source.

Bounce back
27-12-2004, 07:06 PM
work ethic,what rubbish his job is to score goals and im sure he could do that given the chance

Tripod 10
27-12-2004, 10:44 PM
The guy can surely do a better job than the current crop of bench warming strikers

PoolKing
27-12-2004, 10:51 PM
Terrible news if true. I saw him as a potential match winning player and is a lot better than the current subs Dowie uses.

Still, I don't blame him for leaving. He plays for his national team and is a God in Ecuador yet doesn't even get a place on the bench in a team that hasn't won for 8 matches and is behind an average division 2 player in the pecking order:grrr:

PoolKing
27-12-2004, 10:57 PM
When did the 'club source' hear this news?

I get the impression it is old and from the time he had the stomach bug and nobody knew why he wasn't playing in the reserves. If it is already decided that he is going then there would have been no point in playing him in the last 2 matches in which he has shown a much more enthusiastic attitude.

mojoeagle
27-12-2004, 11:01 PM
Fumming. Never given a proper chance in my opion

Absolution
27-12-2004, 11:21 PM
Kaviedes is the sort of player that given the chance could come up with a goal. He defiently needs to hit the gym and bulk up, now hes in English football the centrebacks arent going to give him much time on the ball.

Looking at what we have got coming off the bench attacking wise at the moment Ivan Kaviedes would be a better bet, no offense to Wayne Andrews but he looks way out of his depth in the Premiership he looks fast and maybe he is a good finisher if he ever got a chance but its unlikely he will. He could have been a good aquistion when we were in Division 1 but he hasn't proved (Along with the rest of our striker signings) that he can make a difference in this side.

PoolKing
27-12-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Absolution
no offense to Wayne Andrews but he looks way out of his depth in the Premiership he looks fast and maybe he is a good finisher if he ever got a chance but its unlikely he will.

I agree and what a waste that Kaviedes in Dowie's words "the best finisher at the club" is scoring regularly in the reserves yet fails to make the bench for the 1st team.

In his first months at Palace he was on the bench and came on and had a few good touches, what has he done so badly to slip so far behind?

Jimbo ?
28-12-2004, 12:02 AM
like a few players we have got - dont seem to be all there often enough to be a regular. he hasnt had a chance yet, while dowie persists with the 1 up front formation, its hard to see freedman, shipps torghelle....getting a chance to show what they can do.

I think Torghelle could be the missing link, Aj and Torgelle would be decent but dowie must have his reasons...

Skid Row
28-12-2004, 12:09 AM
Just give him a chance Dowie for ••••s sake.

cpfc_spc1982
28-12-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by Jimbo ?


I think Torghelle could be the missing link, Aj and Torgelle would be decent but dowie must have his reasons...

well apart from our early season form without 3 central midfielders , torghelle has hardly demonstrated the cool head required to play every week.

kolinkins
28-12-2004, 12:28 AM
I dont know what to make of the Kaviedes situation. I mean, he has so much skill and ability. And I would love for him to be given a chance. But, there must be a reason why Dowie would rather have Andrews and a poor man's Kavi (Freedman) on the bench ahead of him.

limited_edition
28-12-2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by kolinkins
I dont know what to make of the Kaviedes situation. I mean, he has so much skill and ability. And I would love for him to be given a chance. But, there must be a reason why Dowie would rather have Andrews and a poor man's Kavi (Freedman) on the bench ahead of him. Because perhaps Dowie puts too much emphasis on the psychological conditioning of his players. I can picture the scene: Harbin hypnotises the attacking players, sends them in a trance and tells them all to believe they are as good as Rivaldo. Andrews, Freedman and Soares are superb at this visualisation technique compared to Kav and bingo, they appear on the bench v Pompey. This is the Premiership. If you're not good enough, no matter how many videos ala Rumble in the Jungle you watch, you will be found out eventually.

Tommy Pickle
28-12-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by limited_edition
Because perhaps Dowie puts too much emphasis on the psychological conditioning of his players. I can picture the scene: Harbin hypnotises the attacking players, sends them in a trance and tells them all to believe they are as good as Rivaldo. Andrews, Freedman and Soares are superb at this visualisation technique compared to Kav and bingo, they appear on the bench v Pompey. This is the Premiership. If you're not good enough, no matter how many videos ala Rumble in the Jungle you watch, you will be found out eventually.

I think ID is a very conservative manager. If the effort is not there in training you don't make the team. Andrews makes the bench because he works hard. putting Kav in the team would set the tone for the whole squad. From what i've seen of Kaviedes he seems to be a fairly serious character, so it doesn't really add up. Possibly not fully commited to the cause?

PoolKing
28-12-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Tommy Pickle
If the effort is not there in training you don't make the team. Andrews makes the bench because he works hard. putting Kav in the team would set the tone for the whole squad.

I think Dowie does put a lot of emphasis on attitude in training however I feel he should pay more attention to performances in reserve team matches. Wayne Andrews looks nothing more than an average player in those matches and yet gets rewarded with a place on the bench. I remember Kaviedes played well against Hartlepool in the cup yet didn't move up to the bench. He has also played well in the last 2 matches for the reserve team and hasn't been rewarded.

Giving Soares and Andrews substitute places for the first team must give the wrong messages to reserve team players and must surely being annoying to Kaviedes and knocking his confidence, he must be wondering what he has to do to get on the bench!

Tommy Pickle
28-12-2004, 01:49 PM
I'm with you PK. Good performances in reserve games should be rewarded. Your not alone with your opinion of Andrews in reserve games. The majority feel Andrews is nothing more than an average player, but we need to have more faith in ID's analysis. Your assesment of Kaviedes is that he played well in the last 2 matches for the reserves. ID is obviously looking for something else that he is not giving. I am confident that Kaviedes has been made aware what he needs to do to secure his name gets on the team sheet, as i'm sure every other squad player does. ID wouldn't have it any other way.

The point I'm getting at is that there is more to playing well than we know. If we feel someone has a good game, it may appear so, but they will only have had a good game if they have played well within the instructions that ID has given them. There must be more Kaviedes need to add to his game before he will get into the team.

Having said that i too think he has shown a bit of class and i'd love him to at least be on the bench against Spuds

Absolution
28-12-2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Tommy Pickle
Having said that i too think he has shown a bit of class and i'd love him to at least be on the bench against Spuds
I've got to agree with that King and the rest of the Tottenham defence isn't going to panic if Andrews comes off the bench and just chases balls. Ivan Kaviedes can hopefully bring something to our attack and show some creativity. Come on Dowie give him a chance!

Tripod 10
28-12-2004, 02:54 PM
Yeah,give him a game,he is better than Soares,Lakis and Hughes.

Clapham Grand
28-12-2004, 07:27 PM
He wasn't on the bench today - surely this shows Dowie doesn't rate him and will let him go in Jan?

lordanton
29-12-2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Clapham Grand
He wasn't on the bench today - surely this shows Dowie doesn't rate him and will let him go in Jan?

Hope not. I was lead to believe he thought Ivan was too light-weight.

But then again so is Routledge, but then Kaviedes isn't needed to sign a contract.

palace & proud
29-12-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Tripod 10
give him a game,he is better than Soares,Lakis and Hughes.


How can he be..If that the case KAVIEDES would play week in week out.Im affraid your wrong! Dowie know's what he is doing as he see's him train everyday.

1.Hughes plays every game.

2.Soares & Lakis Look like there gonna be regulars in the Squad.

3.Kaviedes struggles to make the bench.

Tomo
29-12-2004, 05:52 PM
I still think he should be in. He has that skill that no one else in the team has and if he only does it once a match it could help our chances of stayin up no end.

Phil O'Sophical
29-12-2004, 08:25 PM
From Sky

Barcelona de Ecuador have confirmed that they would like to take back Ivan Kaviedes from Crystal Palace.

Kaviedes has not had the expected impact at Selhurt Park, and may be allowed to negotiate his exit from The Eagles.

Barcelona already have players with Premiership experience in former Middlesbrough man Hamilton Ricard and Agustin Delgado, formerly of Southampton, and they would like to add Kaviedes to that group.

"Kaviedes is under contract until 2005, but if he reaches a financial agreement with his team, he could maybe come and play for Barcelona," said club president Leonardo Bohrer.

"Our coach wants to build a strong team and wants to have Kaviedes, Edison Mendez, Agustin Delgado and Hamilton Ricard."

Kaviedes has made just one start since arriving at Palace for £2 million in the summer, coming off the bench a further five times.

Sussex Eagle
29-12-2004, 08:53 PM
They can like him back all they like of course, ultimately it's down to what Dowie wants.

Farawayeagle
30-12-2004, 06:13 AM
Ivan Kaviedes --- is he good enough.

The truth is, we don't really know. Just like Shipperley he hasn't had enough first team outings at this level this season (none in Shipps case) to judge.

We can make assumptions based on what people saw in the reserve games -- but the first team is something else.

A couple of weeks ago I was reading reserve reports saying Butts didn't look ready for the first team -- well short of his old self, they said.

Now he has played very well in the last two games. We all know this is a funny old game. Yesterday's villain can easily become today's hero. That's why we love the game so much.

Dowie said not so long ago that Kaviedes was going nowhere -- when the rumours started to appear. I think the latest rumours are more of the same.

I have no doubt Kaviedes is frustrated. I'm sure he is a proud man and believes he deserves a chance. He's an established international after all. I think by the end of the New Year games against Fulham and Aston Villa we will know if he will be given that chance.

Dowie used him before against Fulham -- so we might see a repeat from the bench.

It's not so long ago that a lot of people on HOL were slagging off
Sandor for giving away too many free kicks and his "interesting way of responding to tackles in and out of the box."

Now after getting a reasonable time as sub against Tottenham
and performing well --- he is "flavour of the week."

I have no quibble with that -- as I like what I've seen of Sandor.
I believe he will be a great buy for us.

But lets not write off Kaviedes -- unless -- he himself runs out of patience and decides he wants to return to Ecuador. Dowie has yet to indicate that he wants to cut the loan short.

I'm not sure of the train of thought that says Dowie's not selecting him -- so therefore he's not good enough.

I think given our situation Dowie has been afraid to use him in preference to perceived "hard running players." Not a criticism -- just an observation/thought.

I hope he stays. I really want to get a chance to see what he can do in the first team.


For me -- the jury is still out.

Dodges_Mate
30-12-2004, 07:08 PM
I think this is a shame but then again he cant be working hard enough in training or reserves as he would at least be on the bench by now, but saying that the reserve games i have been to he's looked impressive apart from those penalties against fulham.

Kaviedes_Fan
30-12-2004, 08:35 PM
Give the lad a chance to play....

KevTheOptimist
30-12-2004, 09:03 PM
Errmmm, how did he cost us 2 mil?????

Dodges_Mate
30-12-2004, 09:07 PM
i thought he was on loan.

Kaviedes_Fan
30-12-2004, 09:12 PM
He is on loan, not sure about the amount...

KevTheOptimist
30-12-2004, 09:13 PM
surely not 2 mil for one season???

KevTheOptimist
30-12-2004, 09:14 PM
The Oldman-100 is an idiot as well

Kaviedes_Fan
30-12-2004, 09:18 PM
2 mil if Palace wants to buy him next june...it is very difficult

maestro
30-12-2004, 10:42 PM
Ive always said lets keep hold of Kaviedes but its now time i think to ever play him or send him back, its not benfitting us as he never plays and its not doing kaviedes any good either stuck in teh reserves

Farawayeagle
30-12-2004, 11:46 PM
Piper on HOL says Ivan is happy in training and looks comfortable with the upbeat feeling in the training sessions.

Axeman
31-12-2004, 08:43 AM
I have a couple of questions for reserve match regulars. How many goals has he scored?,how many appearances? and how has he looked?
I saw him in the early season appearances he made for the first team and thought he was crap but when I saw him against Hartlepool, I thought he was superb.
Since then I have hoped for another appearance but obviously none have materialised.
the jury is out, as they say.

€pfc
31-12-2004, 09:30 AM
we have him on loan with an option to buy for 2 mil or something like that.

I would like him to stay as his passing, vision and finishing from what I've seen is very good. He is not scared to run at defenders and have a go.Could be a great super sub as the opposition will know very little about the player. However what do i know i guess we will all have to wait and see what ID will do.

Falco
31-12-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Farawayeagle
Piper on HOL says Ivan is happy in training and looks comfortable with the upbeat feeling in the training sessions.

He shouldn't feel happy never getting a game and having Wayne Andrews rated higher than him. He should feel humiliated. If he cannot get a game at the moment, he never will. I can't see any merit in keeping him.

danibutcher
31-12-2004, 11:24 AM
http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=246858&CPID=8&CLID=31&lid=&title=Barcelona+want+Kaviedes&channel=Premiership

Looks like we can free up space for (W)inter Loans

PoolKing
01-01-2005, 05:26 PM
After today's crap surely it is now or never for Kaviedes. Get him on the bench againt Villa in place of Wayne Andrews.

Richwak
01-01-2005, 05:35 PM
PLEASE play him!!!! At least put him on the bloody bench!!!!

nick lombardo
01-01-2005, 05:42 PM
andrews has played in the conference most of his career never being prolific!!!!

Kaviedes_Fan
02-01-2005, 10:54 PM
Give him a chance!!! It is now or never...

Kaviedes_Fan
02-01-2005, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Axeman
I have a couple of questions for reserve match regulars. How many goals has he scored?,how many appearances? and how has he looked?
I saw him in the early season appearances he made for the first team and thought he was crap but when I saw him against Hartlepool, I thought he was superb.
Since then I have hoped for another appearance but obviously none have materialised.
the jury is out, as they say.

He scored 5 goals in 8 matches and 2 goals in one match of Surrey Cup.

Tripod 10
03-01-2005, 12:26 AM
Have to agree with you Kaviedes Fan,we are crying out for someone who can use the ball like Ivan.I think the guy could be just what we need(unless Karagounis turns up)

Chirpsed
03-01-2005, 02:10 AM
Play Kaviedes for crying out loud - what i saw of him at Selhurst Park against Fulham he looked lively, if you ask me at least the perfect man to come of the bench to turn a game, rather than Wayne Andrews!

TheCharmer
03-01-2005, 03:27 AM
My first impression of Wayne Andrew s is he s a poor man s Bruce Dyer. Enough said.....

palace & proud
03-01-2005, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by TheCharmer
My first impression of Wayne Andrew s is he s a poor man s Bruce Dyer. Enough said.....

you gotta give the bloke a chance,you gotta remember he has stepped up a few divisions you know!!

How can you judge a player after a few games..you cant,More like a season or so.

Swoop25
03-01-2005, 02:11 PM
bye Kavi :hi:
good luck back in south america.
shame ...would have liked to have seen more of him.

Kaviedes_Fan
03-01-2005, 06:23 PM
Kaviedes is at London, who says that he is in Ecuador???

PoolKing
03-01-2005, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Kaviedes_Fan
Kaviedes is at London, who says that he is in Ecuador???

Kaviedes Fan, my friend spoke to Julian Speroni after today's game and asked if Ivan had gone back to Ecuador and he said yes.

Maybe he has gone back just for new year:)

Kaviedes_Fan
03-01-2005, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by PoolKing
Kaviedes Fan, my friend spoke to Julian Speroni after today's game and asked if Ivan had gone back to Ecuador and he said yes.

Maybe he has gone back just for new year:)


If he left London, it means that he will not return... :(

LLCOOLSTEVE
03-01-2005, 07:43 PM
Shock, horror!

Palaceboy222
03-01-2005, 07:54 PM
According to palace radio, Dowie thourght he was too light weight

Kaviedes_Fan
04-01-2005, 01:00 AM
Is Palace Radio an official source of Palace or a fans radio???

Kaviedes_Fan
04-01-2005, 01:21 AM
If Kaviedes left the club, why the official site doesn't inform anything about this???

richdeniro
04-01-2005, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Kaviedes_Fan
If Kaviedes left the club, why the official site doesn't inform anything about this???

The official site is the last place to look for news.

It isnt very well run and is pretty terrible for giving news about the playing staff.

The best link I can give you for news about palace would be here...

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?name=Crystal+Palace

It searches through lots of news sites and probably will give you what you need.

Kaviedes_Fan
04-01-2005, 02:07 AM
Thanks for the link richdeniro!!!

Freddy Kurz
04-01-2005, 09:28 AM
A usually reliable source told me yesterday that Kaviedes has returned
to Ecuador.

DDD
04-01-2005, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by TheCharmer
My first impression of Wayne Andrew s is he s a poor man s Bruce Dyer. Enough said.....

Harsh but fair:D

Chirpsed
04-01-2005, 10:07 AM
such a pity - really wanted to see Kaviedes given a chance. Not so sure about lightweight being an issue when you consider how Torghelle has gone down so easy in the chances he was given.

ANDYEAGLE
04-01-2005, 10:34 AM
I dont think you can call Torghelle lightweight. Kaviedes certainly is and as Dowie has now seen him more than anyone this conclusion would come as no surprise to me. Pity because he had the ability to excite.

Chirpsed
04-01-2005, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by ANDYEAGLE
I dont think you can call Torghelle lightweight. Kaviedes certainly is and as Dowie has now seen him more than anyone this conclusion would come as no surprise to me. Pity because he had the ability to excite.

I dont mean torghelle is lightweight as in stature, more in the way that he goes down when the opposition bump into him as we have all seen!