Union Jack to St George’s flag
 

In the 1966 final it was a sea of union jacks.

Why and when did it change to St. George’s flags?

Euro 96 I think

If indyref 2 goes the way of the splits does the Union Jack become obsolete?

I had a merchant navy flag with cpfc on it in the late 70s.

I think so too.

Yuk. I wouldn't even wish that on the bbs multiuser names. He's so revolting.

It was to get away from the whole stigma the union jack had re racism and also we are England not great britain, unlike in the Olympics

Because there have never been any negative associations with the St.George Cross flag?

Brilliant

I always thought the George cross was more associated with the NF - though obviously they tried to latch onto any flag going. Surely it was more about defining England separately to the UK?

Doesn't really matter both will do!
I do prefer the Union flag.

As long as they are flammable - none of those EU regulations.

It always was a feature of England matches, right through to the early 90s - the England kit from around 1974 to 1984 had plenty of red and blue trim to reflect that. You could ask why the England kit is usually white with dark blue shorts (or the all white in more recent times) instead of the national colours, the red shirts and white shorts are normally the 2nd choice kit.

Just a tradition, I guess. For many people, it has political or even religious symbolism, that make it less of an option than flag of St George, but for the majority of England fans, who after all come from all sorts of backgrounds and beliefs, it was just a popular flag and pretty eye catching too - but obviously hijacked over the years by groups with different agendas than just going on to cheer the England team!

He is, why?

Found it weird that England fans used to wave the Union Jack as that is the flag of Britain not England and must have been weird for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

:D :p

When the england fans finally accepted they couldn't work out for sure which way round/up to display the union flag.

The NF and later the BNP used the UJ in their imagery but not the SG flag maybe because they wanted/needed support outside of England (especially NI). The SG flag only got associated with the far right after the EDL became a thing in 2006ish and that image probably won't last given how short lived and small the EDL ended up being.

It was 1996 when the change over happened and some reasons might be that we were playing Scotland in the tournament itself so the UJ might have been inappropriate. The Labour government in waiting had promised devolution referendums planting the seeds for the resurgence of Scottish nationalism (that worked out well for Labour!) maybe on some level England fans were feeling the distinction that was coming.

The main reason was aesthetics. Lad culture, Britpop, football was trendy and wearing a replica shirt or football themed polo shirt or merchandise or even what people called 'casual wear' back then no longer made you look like a thug or anorak as it had done pre mid 90s but actually kind of cool. The minimalist two colour design of the SG looked better on flags, t shirts, polo shirts, accessories than the gaudy UJ. The UJ colour design is most famed fashion wise by The Rolling Stones tongue logo. Where ever you go in the world you see that on hoodies, bags, jackets, t shirts ect.

Point.of.order there, the Stones logo was based on representations of the goddess Kali, who was portrayed with bright red lips and tongue. Seeing as the logo was designed in the early 70s I'm pretty sure the use of the UK or SG colours was not at the forefront of the mind.

Deadly serious - I don't care if we don't win tonight. These ***** are going to absolutely hijack a victory :(

I expect it's obvious reasons but you still see the union jack when Northern Ireland play. Much more than with England.

Got an upside down one near me. Hope for his sake he never moves to Norn Iron!

Yup,my recollection is that the St George's flag started appearing with the rise of the NF in the 70 hijacking the more general British Englishness..

But have you noticed, every f in politician jumps on the bandwagon whereas English team does well.

Didn't Tony Blair preside over the piss up in No 10 when England won the Ashes in 2005? Didn't he sign off on the MBEs for the team?

Marshall Chess, son of Chess Records’ founder, who managed The Stones, claimed to have come up with the idea of the tongue.

Everyone in the country will ‘hijack’ the victory.

I don’t understand why people need to associate a flag with a group as a reason to dislike the flag?? The flag is the symbol of a country first and formost. Nationalist groups will obviously adopt said flags to garner support, but it’s not reason to hate the flag. Hate the group.

The far-right minority always attaches itself to any national flag, trying to mix patriotism with their f ucked up nationalism.

The flag haters try to attach the flags to far-right minorities for their political agendas having a heart attack any time they see their countries flag being waved.

Just because you see a few racist ***** waving a flag for the wrong reasons, it does not take away from the majority who will be waving it for the right reasons just like today.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/e6b0...temid=17795174

https://media1.tenor.com/images/9166...itemid=4718861

^

This a 100 times.

Granted.

Apart from the mass killings during the crusades in the Holy Land inflicted on muslims, there has never been any negative associations with the St George Cross flag.;)

Yes, the originator of the images seems to think so too.

Regardless of the flag I hope we can all join in with this verse of the national anthem.

“ Lord, grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King.”

Must be quite strange when Scots sing it.

Blah blah blah usual political agenda from Les. Always banging that same drum.

He's not wrong though

Let’s keep politics out of this thread. It’s not British.

Pos rep given.

Of course you are right.

Can’t say anything these days. Les and NKE hijacking the thread with their agendas.

Spot on. In fact it helps when normals embrace their daft patriotism and then outnumber the nationalist idiots. Make them look like the swivel eyed divs that they are.

Southgate and the team have been pretty cute in doing that for the last month.

Wave your flag. It's only a flag.

Wave it, don’t wave it. Whatever. Now BB joins in with the agendas and lecturing.

Keep politics out of this I say.

Even that bit isn't as good as it sounds as it's more anti-Catholic than anti-scotch.

:D English irony.

Put out the St George's cross bunting. :lux:

Sorry. I genuinely didn't know your question in the OP was just that! I had assumed you wanted to revisit previous threads on patriotism v nationalism.

In which case, I agree with the posters who said 1996 and the reason is that the NF had rather tainted the union flag.

I'll not post further.

That should be your last post on here then

I certainly don't immediately associate the lips and tongue logo with flag colours. I know there are different versions but it's usually bright red.

He was talking out of his arse then, and I don't think he actually managed the Stones.

I look upon it as normality, a kid, man or woman(or what you associate yourself with;)) waves an England flag in support of the England team. It's not politics or thinking about the crusades. They are supporting their countries team in a cup final, that's about it.

Just to add, it brings the country together who or whatever you are, religions and race so in fact, it is the opposite to what some seem to think what it represents.

But sorry to say some people despise anytime a flag is waved anytime there is a St Georges day wanting to piss on the parade when most and the majority do not even give it a 2nd thought.

That's interesting. Someone once told me it was designed by Andy Warhol around the time of the Sticky Fingers album cover so I always assumed that was the case. Having just had a look, he had nothing to do with the logo.

Maybe you should keep your tantrums to the politics forum? It's obvious you aren't a football fan so your meltdowns come across far more awkward here. I guess rugby was the sport of choice at your boarding school.

Rugby was my sport of choice at boarding school.

Try and make me.

It's true about GSTQ - it's not actually the English anthem at all, and we are appropriating it from the Scots, Welsh and Irish to whom it also belongs. The England team should choose a different song, like everyone else has.

Lol I was being tongue in cheek but actually the original question was just what it was not a rerun. I’d just watched the 1966 final on C4. Well the end of it.

Stop moaning Les you’re causing division with your agendas.

Lol had a season ticket since I was 12 and suspect you’re a lot posher and better off than me. Went to a Lewisham comp and started work as an apprentice if you really want to know :)

Also lighten up sunshine :)

Yeah the anthem is another interesting one. Is there an English anthem?

"Jerusalem" and "I Vow to Thee, my Country" get used.
Billy Bragg has been banging on about this for years. Great if it happens, I suppose.

Not officially, no.

In the 70s & 80s the red bar across the middle of the Union Jack did provide better opportunity to stencil out Lower Shittlebury or wherever the bearers were from.
The St George is just made for CPFC to be spelt out in the four sectors though.

I would choose Yellow Submarine. English, inclusive and fun.

"Jerusalem" has a cracking tune but the words are a bit odd. I know there are various interpretations of the "And did those feet..." bit of "Milton", but none seem to make that much sense to me.

Incidentally, Billy Bragg seems to spend a lot of time these days on Twitter defending the rights of men to use ladies' changing rooms &c.

I wouldn't know IVTTMC if it bit me on the arse.

Marshall Chess is a fibber

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/a...salem-is-wrong

This is a relatively interesting read.

If we were going to be pedantic, the original was just red and white, then a black outline was added to it.

Personally find Jerusalem boring.

Is this because the workers in the dark satanic mills were not out on strike?

Off to work now, then to a mates for the game, have my three lions shirt on, three lions crest on the back of my van and a St George's flag for the window but I will not outdo all the many Italian flags on houses, cars etc :D

I have seen but one other car with an England flag such is French Canada :D

Come on England !!!!

Read the link I put up. It’s not about mills or the industrial Revolution.

I didn’t know that either until I just read the link but disappointed in you.

And we could have used "Glad to be Gay" for that game that coincided with Pride Week.

I watched the England Ukraine game in Bermondsey near to the old Den. Barely an England flag in sight. You can’t do anything these days.

Which version?

Warhol designed the Sticky Fingers cover.

Yeah, I know but I meant the tongue innit.

I only know one version, so you'll have to er "fill me in" on what you mean there.
Definitely the Fall's version of "Jerusalem", though.

Yeah, yeah - we all know you prefer ELP's version.

edit - I have just listened to it and it is truly terrible

That's just one person's interpretation though. As I said, people will read into it what they want.

I get that. The difference is that it isn't Blair, Brown, Cameron, or May. It is him and his incredibly scummy mates.

Yep. 13 of the squad qualify to play for other countries. Seeing the home secretary supporting this team is nauseating.

Really? That's an amazing statistic, haven't seen that before. Lots of Irish Grandmas?

My 1966 World Cup Willie moneybox has a union flag vest on.

Grealish and Rice are self-confessed tinkers, and the likes of Coady and Maguire and County Tyrone Mings probably are too.

For what it’s worth. He is abit of a wideboy so maybe he made it all up I dont know.

https://www.goldminemag.com/articles...rolling-stones

I think I read what I said in the Chess Records book about 10 years ago so could be hazy.

I've always assumed the reason (well, one of them anyway) was because England and Scotland were in the same group in Euro 96 and it would've been seen as a bit odd for England fans to be waving flags containing the cross of St Andrew at that tournament.

What a marvellous thread. Cockerkneewebel at his finest

:D

Your time as Trolley is rubbish.

Though technically, almost anyone who's got a claim to play for England, could with the loosest connection play for Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland - so that is five teams (six if you were desperate enough to include Gibraltar) - and vice versa.

Its not exactly hard to find a bit of 'history' to qualify.

Are you sure about that?
The other Home Countries will be devastated to hear that I can only play for England, I'm sure - all my grandparents were born in England. Feels like we should have a poll.