CPFC BBS

CPFC BBS (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/index.php)
-   General Palace Discussion (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21)
-   -   Jairo Riedewald (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271278)

CommercialStone 16-02-2021 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sl6 Eagle (Post 15652987)
He certainly isn’t the midfield messiah that many make him out to be. Weak in the tackle and doesn’t track back as much as required. Luka gets slated on here whilst Jairo gets off scot free.

The problem with a lot of our CMs is that they all do one or two things well, and the other parts of their game are average at best.

Big Blue Eagle 16-02-2021 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie McGoldrick's tash (Post 15653162)
Yep. I sometimes think that during the time he was left out he became the answer in lots of people's heads - just as Sorloth did once he was scoring in Turkey.

I don't dislike Jairo and think he does offer something and has had some good games but I'm not sure he is the regular PL regular starter that many on the BBS seem to think. Moments of quality but still far too many moments where the game seems to just pass him by. I think we miss McArthur at the moment.

Agree with one caveat - we are missing the Jimmy Mac of two years ago who picked up the ball and ran with it. None of our CMs make runs from deep with the ball, the go to route is to get it wide to Wilf, Ayew, Andros or Eze rather than carrying the ball at decent pace to get defenders turning while players like Wilf make wider runs dragging players out of the centre.

aj4england 16-02-2021 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie McGoldrick's tash (Post 15653162)
Yep. I sometimes think that during the time he was left out he became the answer in lots of people's heads - just as Sorloth did once he was scoring in Turkey.

I don't dislike Jairo and think he does offer something and has had some good games but I'm not sure he is the regular PL regular starter that many on the BBS seem to think. Moments of quality but still far too many moments where the game seems to just pass him by. I think we miss McArthur at the moment.

None of our midfielders are yet capable of playing as a 2. To be honest, not many footballers in world football are, purely as most teams play as a 3 so you always have an overload. I would question his fitness and speed. I think he would be a class player under Pulis and utilised a lot more. Are current squad aren't built to be fit otherwise they would all be getting injured in training.

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 16-02-2021 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aj4england (Post 15653184)
None of our midfielders are yet capable of playing as a 2. To be honest, not many footballers in world football are, purely as most teams play as a 3 so you always have an overload. I would question his fitness and speed. I think he would be a class player under Pulis and utilised a lot more. Are current squad aren't built to be fit otherwise they would all be getting injured in training.

Yeah, he may do better in a midfield 3 where he has less defensive responsibility. However, Eze didn't really work central in a 3 and we only have 3 central midfielders available at the moment.

glaziers fan 16-02-2021 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jobiinthelastmi (Post 15653107)
He would work so well if we played three in the middle. We just need a couple of midfielders who would do the leg work:

———- ——McCarthy————

—— McArthur —— Jairo———-
He can’t play next to Luka because neither have work rate or mobility. I fear Hodgson will drop him soon, yet keep captain (not) sensible in there every game.

FWIW, with the current squad, we should switch to 3-5-2 under the new manager. We don't have a pair of centre backs that are good enough so we should have 3 in there. Our midfield needs 3 in there too because we don't have 2 who are of sufficient quality, and also it means extra protection for the centre backs. It means playing without wingers, but that's fine too because we don't have any! Zaha is no longer quick enough to go past a full back on a regular basis, and neither is Townsend. If it's good enough for Tuchel...

------------------------------Guaita----------------------------------
------------Ferguson-------Tomkins--------Kouyate----------------
[new signing]-----[new signing]----Riedewald---------Schlupp
---------------------------------Eze-----------------------------------
---------------------Mateta-------------Zaha--------------------------

As Schlupp and Ferguson could fill in at full back, the right wing back could be more forward thinking, like CHO is for Chelsea. Sarr and Gallagher please. There are still opportunities to build a team if we are prepare to invest in some decent players who are Premier League ready.

ParrsLeftBoot 16-02-2021 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glaziers fan (Post 15653237)
FWIW, with the current squad, we should switch to 3-5-2 under the new manager. We don't have a pair of centre backs that are good enough so we should have 3 in there. Our midfield needs 3 in there too because we don't have 2 who are of sufficient quality, and also it means extra protection for the centre backs. It means playing without wingers, but that's fine too because we don't have any! Zaha is no longer quick enough to go past a full back on a regular basis, and neither is Townsend. If it's good enough for Tuchel...

------------------------------Guaita----------------------------------
------------Ferguson-------Tomkins--------Kouyate----------------
[new signing]-----[new signing]----Riedewald---------Schlupp
---------------------------------Eze-----------------------------------
---------------------Mateta-------------Zaha--------------------------

As Schlupp and Ferguson could fill in at full back, the right wing back could be more forward thinking, like CHO is for Chelsea. Sarr and Gallagher please. There are still opportunities to build a team if we are prepare to invest in some decent players who are Premier League ready.

With sarr and Gallagher, I really like that team.

However would never happen, nor probably work.

glaziers fan 16-02-2021 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Blue Eagle (Post 15653179)
Agree with one caveat - we are missing the Jimmy Mac of two years ago who picked up the ball and ran with it. None of our CMs make runs from deep with the ball, the go to route is to get it wide to Wilf, Ayew, Andros or Eze rather than carrying the ball at decent pace to get defenders turning while players like Wilf make wider runs dragging players out of the centre.

RLC was the guy we used to have running from deep as well. Eze is raw, but once he learns I see no reason why he can't carry the ball from deep and get into the box with late runs as well. He's potentially a No10, but I think he could also be a box-to-box No 8 in a 3 man centre mid. I think he could eventually run games.

As for Riedewald, he's not a box-to-box midfielder. He can't cover the ground quickly enough. He's a holding midfielder who needs help.

lowenand 16-02-2021 10:12 AM

Think that team would struggle massively. We need a stronger defense, not a weaker one. Schlupp is very talented at running and attacking, but couldn't defend a barn door.

Very difficult to tell if Ferguson has got what it takes as right back, and certainly as a wide central defender.

We need two new centre halves with Tomkins as the third man to choose from (Kouyate second backup), a younger cm, and a proper right winger. With Zaha, Eze, Ayew, hopefully Mateta doing well, we could get make some real changes to the squad.

Guaita (Butland backup and a third keeper)

One out of Clyne/Ward/Ferguson - new CH - new CH (Tomkins and Kouyate backup, Kelly emergency backup) - one of out Mitchell/PVA

New RW - New CM - One out of Jairo/McArthur/Luka - Eze (Schlupp backup)

Mateta (Ayew backup here and at RW) - Zaha

Get rid of Townsend, Benteke, Bats, Hennessey, Sakho, Dann, Cahill, McCarthy. Keep Clyne, PVA. With only four new players straight into the lineup, there's hopefully room for a couple of more promising players on the bench, or in the eleven if they do that well. Maybe a cm and a striker. Schlupp will probably play a lot when injury free, can be used in a couple of places, or as a sub. But not as a defender.

exiledeagle 16-02-2021 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie McGoldrick's tash (Post 15653162)
Yep. I sometimes think that during the time he was left out he became the answer in lots of people's heads - just as Sorloth did once he was scoring in Turkey.

I don't dislike Jairo and think he does offer something and has had some good games but I'm not sure he is the regular PL regular starter that many on the BBS seem to think. Moments of quality but still far too many moments where the game seems to just pass him by. I think we miss McArthur at the moment.

I agree about McArthur to an extent . However he has also looked poor in matches this season and could be another that is rated more when not playing . Still decent but not the same player as last season . To steady the ship i would have Milivojevic , McArthur and Riedawald as central midfield .

Martin H 16-02-2021 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philsick (Post 15653091)
Well done for extinguishing one of the only bright young sparks recently. Has any player escaped a slating yet?

I still stay its the system thats doing these players no favours at all, jairo and luka outnumbered and with no pressing overrun. Front players isolated and unsupported. jairo is the only centre mid who gets forward and tries to link with the frontmen. He isn't perfect by a long stretch but he's outperfomed our captain in the latest shit shows.

Not sure who you are talking about but I certainly wasn't slating him and as I said I am in the Jairo camp and rooting for him but that shouldn't stop me recognising or admitting that he is part of the wider problem we have had recently. He has weaknesses, all Palace players do. He will have to address those or it won't be a shock when he finds himself on the bench when other options are available which would be a shame. I like the way he plays but he has to be involved for 90 mins, show greater intensity and for me he has to stop turning his back and waving his a*** at players taking shots. The latter is more of an irritation but you can't block react if you are facing the wrong way. PVA is just as bad. He has the ability to orchestrate things in the middle but for that to work he has to do the stuff that ensures he is on the pitch in the first place. He seemed to be doing exactly that before his injury but that was months ago and he has let that slip.

Stavros 69 16-02-2021 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lowenand (Post 15653288)
Think that team would struggle massively. We need a stronger defense, not a weaker one. Schlupp is very talented at running and attacking, but couldn't defend a barn door.

Very difficult to tell if Ferguson has got what it takes as right back, and certainly as a wide central defender.

We need two new centre halves with Tomkins as the third man to choose from (Kouyate second backup), a younger cm, and a proper right winger. With Zaha, Eze, Ayew, hopefully Mateta doing well, we could get make some real changes to the squad.

Guaita (Butland backup)

One out of Clyne/Ward/Ferguson - new CH - new CH (Tomkins and Kouyate backup) - one of out Mitchell/PVA

New RW - New CM - One out of Jairo/McArthur/Luka - Eze

Mateta (Ayew backup) - Zaha

Get rid of Townsend, Benteke, Bats, Hennessey, Sakho, Dann, Cahill, McCarthy. Keep Clyne, PVA. With only four new players straight into the lineup, there's hopefully room for a couple of more promising players on the bench, or in the eleven if they do that well. Maybe a cm and a striker.

One of Cahill or Dann will stay, more than likely both.

ForzaPalace 16-02-2021 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stavros 69 (Post 15653483)
One of Cahill or Dann will stay, more than likely both.

Bloody hope not

exiledeagle 16-02-2021 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stavros 69 (Post 15653483)
One of Cahill or Dann will stay, more than likely both.

If they do , neither will play many games because of injuries and more relevant , neither are good enough anymore

Martin H 16-02-2021 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stavros 69 (Post 15653483)
One of Cahill or Dann will stay, more than likely both.

We are crazy if we are planning on a squad that will be relying on Tomkins, Cahill and Dann to play regularly.

Tomkins has never managed 30 games in a season in his career. He managed 18 last year and 5 so far this year.

Dann hasn't played more than 16 games in his last 3 seasons and is currently on 13 this year.

Cahill managed 25 last season and only 9 so far this season.

By the eof ext season
Dann will be 35 and is clearly struggling for pace at PL level.
Cahill will be 36 and looks considerably slower than Scott.

Tomkins will be 32 and if he can stay fit should be OK but as the above shows, he is a gamble due to a poor career long track record of appearances.

While on the topic. I was hugely impressed with Kouyate's performances at CB initially but the longer he has played there the more I can see why West Ham reached the conclusion that he isn't good enough on the ball for midfield and he is wildly inconsistent at CB. So while I would imagine he is an excellent cover player, able to slot in either area whenever needed I wouldn't be building a defence around him either.

I haven't listed Sakho above but for the record at 32 next season he should be fine but has slowed significantly in the past year or so. In his 4 full seasons for Palace he has managed 19, 27, 13 and 4. My guess is next season is a 0 at these prices.

So I reckon we are left with Kelly as a CB and need to add 3 more, using Kouyate as cover for both that and midfield or let him go too. No problems the DOF will sort that out, it's all under control. I am amazed at the thought of the tricks they are going to pull off in the summer.

Stavros 69 16-02-2021 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForzaPalace (Post 15653486)
Bloody hope not

I'm pretty sure Cahill is staying.

Stavros 69 16-02-2021 02:32 PM

Back on topic.

We just don't have the players to play in a 2.

If Jario was called Jack Redbourne and looked like Luka he wouldn't get half of the arse kissing he gets on here.
Luka hasn't been anywhere near as bad as people like to make out over the last few games.
Vincente, the CB's and PVA switching off has cost us the games, not Luka who's trying.
He's lost his confidence and us getting on his back wont help.

Jario is decent enough, but we really need someone new in the middle of the park a Jack Cork type.
We miss the solidity of Jimmy Mac, Luka and Kouayte.
We miss Wilf out wide and someone else taking the pressure off him on the opposite wing and we miss having players get into the box.
I watch as little of the WBA game the other day, but the number of player that got into the box just puts the opo under pressure.
We stick one man up there and pray that after giving it to Wilf he does something, it's not enough.

BillyTKid 16-02-2021 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stavros 69 (Post 15653608)
I'm pretty sure Cahill is staying.

If we give him another year its a good example why we are struggling to buy players. That will probably be over £11m in wages for him over a three year period.

You could buy a young player for £10m paying him £30k a week on a four year contract and the the accounting cost would be very similar over the first 3 years of the contract to the Cahill deal. Except in the fourth year you have a player that's probably now in his prime and hopefully worth a fair bit.

BillyTKid 16-02-2021 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stavros 69 (Post 15653616)
Back on topic.

We just don't have the players to play in a 2.

If Jario was called Jack Redbourne and looked like Luka he wouldn't get half of the arse kissing he gets on here.
Luka hasn't been anywhere near as bad as people like to make out over the last few games.
Vincente, the CB's and PVA switching off has cost us the games, not Luka who's trying.
He's lost his confidence and us getting on his back wont help.

Jario is decent enough, but we really need someone new in the middle of the park a Jack Cork type.
We miss the solidity of Jimmy Mac, Luka and Kouayte.
We miss Wilf out wide and someone else taking the pressure off him on the opposite wing and we miss having players get into the box.
I watch as little of the WBA game the other day, but the number of player that got into the box just puts the opo under pressure.
We stick one man up there and pray that after giving it to Wilf he does something, it's not enough.

I actually think if Jairo was an English guy who had come through our youth academy he would have got even more fanfare. Its easy to forget how old he is. Still only 24 now. At 22 he gave a fantastic defensive performance in midfield against Man City (then got shut out for best part of 18 months). If he was a South London lad people would have been going mental about that.

white 16-02-2021 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyTKid (Post 15653619)
If we give him another year its a good example why we are struggling to buy players. That will probably be over £11m in wages for him over a three year period.

You could buy a young player for £10m paying him £30k a week on a four year contract and the the accounting cost would be very similar over the first 3 years of the contract to the Cahill deal. Except in the fourth year you have a player that's probably now in his prime and hopefully worth a fair bit.

Very good point.

I really like Cahill and think overall, he has been a pretty good addition and think his experience would be invaluable to some of the younger players.

That being said, if he is genuinely costing us somewhere in the region of the above mentioned, then you really have to question what the actual f*ck we are hoping for as a club fast approaching a major squad overhaul/revamp in need of young fresh legs with potential.

You've just really got to hope that with Sakho, PVA, Hennessey departing and possibly Benteke leaving too, we are freeing up space and a hell of a lot budget for some re-enforcements.

aj4england 16-02-2021 02:53 PM

Jairo partnered alongside Kouyate is the 2 I want to see before the season is out. Kouyates job is simply break up play and give the ball to Riedewald. Kouyate is the only midfielder capable of covering the ground quick enough even if gangly at times.

Also, it would remove us from this slow and ponderous approach play and turn us back into what we do best, use pacy options, namely Wilf and Eze, but Schlupp and Ayew shouldnt be forgotten, to turn over the ball and counter quicker.

SOUTHGATE EAGLE 16-02-2021 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aj4england (Post 15653184)
None of our midfielders are yet capable of playing as a 2. To be honest, not many footballers in world football are, purely as most teams play as a 3 so you always have an overload. I would question his fitness and speed. I think he would be a class player under Pulis and utilised a lot more. Are current squad aren't built to be fit otherwise they would all be getting injured in training.

This is almost the entire issue, or it would be if we had enough creativity coming from just the wings and the two strikers to make a wing-centric 442 work, as well as two superb 'stoppers' in midfield.

For awhile, having two championship level midfielders who tackled well ( Jedinak and Ledley ) was enough for us to scrape to 40 points, because teams would overcommit and we'd hit them with Zaha and Bolasie's pace. Minimal skill was required.

But then teams wised up and sat back more. Suddenly, we had to pass the ball a bit, both quickly and in tight spaces. Cabaye was not enough. We needed at least a penetrative box-to-box midfielder ( RLC gave us that for a limited, rental period ) or a classic, creative midfielder. ( which we only tried, in Eze, after we had lost Cabaye and eight seasons in the Prem )

So we've been reliant on wing play and Zaha ever since our second season in the Prem and solid defence for the entire duration. Recipe for eventual stagnation / relegation. We've spent almost all serious investment on defence and on trying to find strikers who can convert poor service into goals and only had a single season of marginal success -when we played Zaha as a striker alongside Benteke, under BFS.

The creativity issue in midfield hasn't been addressed and Roy tried to overcome that by playing Zaha up with Benteke again, as per under BFS. It has worked in that we've scored more but it has meant a 442 was required, which gets us back to the problem of having only two midfielders, often outnumbered. If we had two exceptional tacklers who could at least pass a bit then they could just sit back and let the front four do the creative work.

Yet our only good passer in midfield is Jairo and he isn't a good shield for the defence. We didn't buy either a passing midfielder like Gallagher or a great tackler like Gueye, both of whom we looked at but didn't commit to. We chose to ignore Townsend's deterioration, refused the wages which would have brought Fraser on a free transfer and also allowed Benrahma to go to a club that wanted him enough. Instead we -you guessed it -brought in a striker. This January we ignored the midfield / creativity problem again and -you guessed it -brought in a striker.

Our recruitment and set up can be defined as 'insane' because we keep operating under the same mistaken assumptions and never learning they just won't work. As for Jairo, he will only flourish in a three-man midfield where he is free to pass with a two-man shield behind him. Same issue as Meyer, although he is a better physical specimen. I fear we will only continue with our focus on striker / defense recruitment, leave our midfield as is and let Jairo continue to be utilized wrongly in a team which will go down next season.

Mr Palace 16-02-2021 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stavros 69 (Post 15653616)
Back on topic.

We just don't have the players to play in a 2.

If Jario was called Jack Redbourne and looked like Luka he wouldn't get half of the arse kissing he gets on here.
Luka hasn't been anywhere near as bad as people like to make out over the last few games.
Vincente, the CB's and PVA switching off has cost us the games, not Luka who's trying.
He's lost his confidence and us getting on his back wont help.

Jario is decent enough, but we really need someone new in the middle of the park a Jack Cork type.
We miss the solidity of Jimmy Mac, Luka and Kouayte.
We miss Wilf out wide and someone else taking the pressure off him on the opposite wing and we miss having players get into the box.
I watch as little of the WBA game the other day, but the number of player that got into the box just puts the opo under pressure.
We stick one man up there and pray that after giving it to Wilf he does something, it's not enough.

Luka hasn’t played well for two years.

Riedewald has had several good games this season.

I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.

Eddie McGoldrick's tash 16-02-2021 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Palace (Post 15653818)
Luka hasn’t played well for two years.

Riedewald has had several good games this season.

I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.

I think they've both had about the same number of good games. Jairo's are just a bit more noticeable because he does more pretty and attacking things than Luka.

Mr Palace 16-02-2021 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie McGoldrick's tash (Post 15653890)
I think they've both had about the same number of good games. Jairo's are just a bit more noticeable because he does more pretty and attacking things than Luka.

Can’t agree with that.

Luka has been pretty awful for a long time now. The guy can barely pass a ball anymore, his set pieces are poor, and he’s a yellow card waiting to happen.

Used to always be one of my favourite players but he’s lost his way over the last year.

I don’t get the anti-Riedewald sentiments on here but each to their own.


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.