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-   -   Jairo Riedewald (https://www.cpfc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271278)

Martin H 18-07-2018 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOUTHGATE EAGLE (Post 14340959)
I still hope we spend to replace Cabaye as well as we can but I think, if push came to shove, that Jairo could be the shield for the back four and allow Luka to play a slightly more advanced role, suiting him since he is such a good passer. At the least, Reidewald should be enough for us to get to the January window and reevaluate. I'm more worried about replacing what RLC did for us. Without him and if Wilf were injured, we become basically instant relegation fodder.

Hopefully the talk of being penniless is smoke and we'll bring in the CM and AM we need. Do that and an exciting season awaits, IMHO.

I think Jairo will be important as you say but I am not so convinced Luka can play too much further forward. It does depend where you mean. Certainly not as an AM (which we don't have anyway in our formation). If you mean as the playmaker in the middle then I think he is probably best left deep doing what he does now. Doing that from deep. I am looking forward to Lukas return so we can see how and who Roy tries out there. I am a bit nervous that none of the 3 likely CMs (Macca, Jairo or Luka) will create enough but it does depend who fills the 2 slots either side of the middle 2. We just don't know right now.

Alexc26 18-07-2018 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 14340973)
I am a bit nervous that none of the 3 likely CMs (Macca, Jairo or Luka) will create enough but it does depend who fills the 2 slots either side of the middle 2. We just don't know right now.

Probably Schlupp and Townsend I imagine ? We're a bit screwed when it comes to backup in those positions though.

MFBias 18-07-2018 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 14340973)
I think Jairo will be important as you say but I am not so convinced Luka can play too much further forward. It does depend where you mean. Certainly not as an AM (which we don't have anyway in our formation). If you mean as the playmaker in the middle then I think he is probably best left deep doing what he does now. Doing that from deep. I am looking forward to Lukas return so we can see how and who Roy tries out there. I am a bit nervous that none of the 3 likely CMs (Macca, Jairo or Luka) will create enough but it does depend who fills the 2 slots either side of the middle 2. We just don't know right now.

Miliviojevic scored more goals than Cabaye with 10 (yes 7 from the spot with one very important one against Southampton) with Cabaye scoring zero.

Miliviojevic also had the same amount of assists as Cabaye with 1, and what an assist it was, with the lofted pass to Zaha to head home against Brighton.

I would say I have no problem with Miliviojevic being tasked to create more next year in Cabaye’s place. Cabaye did do alot of sideways passing. Even McArthur scored 5 and assisted 1, so this Cabaye as the creative outlet in the midfield is abit of a fallacy.

Doesnt just end there

Passes
LM - 1652
YC - 1297

Shots
LM - 42
YC - 38

Tackles
LM - 85
YC - 70

Ariel Battles won
LM - 49
YC - 6!

Cleanances
LM - 74
YC - 28

Interceptions
LM - 71
YC - 79

GreatGonzo 18-07-2018 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341031)
Miliviojevic scored more goals than Cabaye with 10 (yes alot from the spot but several not, One very important one against Southampton) with Cabaye scoring zero.

Miliviojevic also had the same amount of assists as Cabaye with 1, and what an assist it was, with the lofted pass to Zaha to head home against Brighton.

I would say I have no problem with Miliviojevic being tasked to create more next year in Cabaye’s place. Cabaye did do alot of sideways passing. Even McArthur scored 5 and assisted 1, so this Cabaye as the creative outlet in the midfield is abit of a fallacy.

Doesnt just end there

Passes
LM - 1652
YC - 1297

Shots
LM - 42
YC - 38

Tackles
LM - 85
YC - 70

Ariel Battles won
LM - 49
YC - 6!

Cleanances
LM - 74
YC - 28

Interceptions
LM - 71
YC - 79

Based on how much they actually played....

Luka played more passes and more successful ones although Cabayes % was marginally higher - very little between them.

Cabaye had more shots although Luka's accuracy was slightly better (does include pens though i think)

Cabaye made more successful tackles than Luka, and more unsuccessful ones

There is not a lot between them.

In stats you didn't include, Cabye created far more chances than Luka for others and gave away less free kicks.

Martin H 18-07-2018 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341031)
Miliviojevic scored more goals than Cabaye with 10 (yes 7 from the spot with one very important one against Southampton) with Cabaye scoring zero.

Miliviojevic also had the same amount of assists as Cabaye with 1, and what an assist it was, with the lofted pass to Zaha to head home against Brighton.

I would say I have no problem with Miliviojevic being tasked to create more next year in Cabaye’s place. Cabaye did do alot of sideways passing. Even McArthur scored 5 and assisted 1, so this Cabaye as the creative outlet in the midfield is abit of a fallacy.

Doesnt just end there

Passes
LM - 1652
YC - 1297

Shots
LM - 42
YC - 38

Tackles
LM - 85
YC - 70

Ariel Battles won
LM - 49
YC - 6!

Cleanances
LM - 74
YC - 28

Interceptions
LM - 71
YC - 79

Not sure what provoked that effort but not too sure how relevant those stats are to the doubt I was expressing. If anything it reinforces it. I was suggesting that we keep Luka where he was last season because it suits him best and that moving him forward might not. You laid out the stats that if anything reinforce that. The stats don't tell us that he can do the same or better if asked to play further forward.

Always seems strange to me that its suggested so often that we change the position of players away from where they are excelling into a different position. Wouldn't a Manager of Roy's experience have done that already? With Wilf I understand it because he wasn't getting enough goals or assists. Lets see what Roy does. You could be right but today I would prefer he stayed where he has been doing so well.

SOUTHGATE EAGLE 18-07-2018 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341031)
Miliviojevic scored more goals than Cabaye with 10 (yes 7 from the spot with one very important one against Southampton) with Cabaye scoring zero.

Miliviojevic also had the same amount of assists as Cabaye with 1, and what an assist it was, with the lofted pass to Zaha to head home against Brighton.

I would say I have no problem with Miliviojevic being tasked to create more next year in Cabaye’s place. Cabaye did do alot of sideways passing. Even McArthur scored 5 and assisted 1, so this Cabaye as the creative outlet in the midfield is abit of a fallacy.

Doesnt just end there

Passes
LM - 1652
YC - 1297

Shots
LM - 42
YC - 38

Tackles
LM - 85
YC - 70

Ariel Battles won
LM - 49
YC - 6!

Cleanances
LM - 74
YC - 28

Interceptions
LM - 71
YC - 79

And yet it's been said Luka can't play as a CM or AM when he dominates Cabaye on stats more akin to those roles. Luka also started as an AM so I believe he can play as a CM at least, with Jairo doing the screening role.

I would prefer we buy a quality CM to add options and squad depth but, provided injuries don't reach the biblical plague level of last season, we should be able to get to January at least with our current midfield. Yes, replacing Cabaye properly would be preferable but I'm not prepared to agree with some that we are doomed without his services.

There's only one player we've proven we can't do without and that's why we MUST bring in either an adequate replacement for RLC or one hell of a winger to boost our creative options on the flank. We can't leave it all on Wilf again and we need to start insulating ourselves for his inevitable loss. If he shows the same level of improvement this season as last, there's no way he will still be with us twelve months from now and I hope the club is thinking of our creative options post Wilfred Zaha over this window and the next. Failing to do so is the only way I can see us getting relegated in the near future given the otherwise good general strength of our current squad.

MFBias 18-07-2018 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 14341103)
Not sure what provoked that effort but not too sure how relevant those stats are to the doubt I was expressing. If anything it reinforces it. I was suggesting that we keep Luka where he was last season because it suits him best and that moving him forward might not. You laid out the stats that if anything reinforce that. The stats don't tell us that he can do the same or better if asked to play further forward.

Always seems strange to me that its suggested so often that we change the position of players away from where they are excelling into a different position. Wouldn't a Manager of Roy's experience have done that already? With Wilf I understand it because he wasn't getting enough goals or assists. Lets see what Roy does. You could be right but today I would prefer he stayed where he has been doing so well.

You said you were ‘abit nervous’ about leaving creative duties to Miliviojevic, when he has been far more creative in a defensive position. I just think people put Cabaye on a pedestal, yes he was good but I dont think he was the best centre midfielder last year.

It’s not like suggesting playing Jedinak at Centreback, it’s another role in Centre Midfield which he can obviously play.

bodger 18-07-2018 08:58 PM

YC or LM it's LM every time JR could be the man he looks to have bulked up so can play a DM role with Luka in a more attacking role.

Martin H 18-07-2018 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341292)
You said you were ‘abit nervous’ about leaving creative duties to Miliviojevic, when he has been far more creative in a defensive position. I just think people put Cabaye on a pedestal, yes he was good but I dont think he was the best centre midfielder last year.

It’s not like suggesting playing Jedinak at Centreback, it’s another role in Centre Midfield which he can obviously play.

I wasn't comparing him to or referencing Cabaye which was why I was confused by the detailed comparison of stats. Sounds as if I probably rated Cabaye higher than you did but it's all bit irrelevant now really - he's gone.

I am definitely not knocking Luka, more saying that he is best left in his DM role where he has proven himself a real success. I wouldn't be trying to turn him into a CM or even less likely an AM. It's the pairing of Macca and Luka that worries me if that is supposed to be out creative platform in the middle next season. It doesn't feel as strong going forward or defensively to me. I would prefer Macca was right or left midfield.But lets see how the friendlies and the transfers shape up.

It's just a casual opinion in response to posts, not a crusade on my part although the same point has come up on several posts.

MFBias 18-07-2018 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin H (Post 14341352)
I wasn't comparing him to or referencing Cabaye which was why I was confused by the detailed comparison of stats. Sounds as if I probably rated Cabaye higher than you did but it's all bit irrelevant now really - he's gone.

I am definitely not knocking Luka, more saying that he is best left in his DM role where he has proven himself a real success. I wouldn't be trying to turn him into a CM or even less likely an AM. It's the pairing of Macca and Luka that worries me if that is supposed to be out creative platform in the middle next season. It doesn't feel as strong going forward or defensively to me. I would prefer Macca was right or left midfield.But lets see how the friendlies and the transfers shape up.

It's just a casual opinion in response to posts, not a crusade on my part although the same point has come up on several posts.

Fair enough, I however will be interested to see what happens when Miliviojevic comes back. I think Rieldewald is going to get a chance in the first team this year.

AJ 18-07-2018 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bodger (Post 14341304)
YC or LM it's LM every time JR could be the man he looks to have bulked up so can play a DM role with Luka in a more attacking role.

I would never knock Luka, but if you watched Serbia in the WC, Luka was a different player to the one who plays at Palace. It may have had something to do with the other midfielders around him.

Martin H 18-07-2018 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341364)
Fair enough, I however will be interested to see what happens when Miliviojevic comes back. I think Rieldewald is going to get a chance in the first team this year.

I agree and I also hope Jairo gets more of a chance. As a minimum I hope that he gets a healthy amount of games. We do need to be able to share the workload rather than rely on the same 11 every week. The next few weeks define the season again though. Depends on who comes in and out of the doors.

glaziers fan 19-07-2018 03:37 AM

I do think that Jairo is the better partner for Luka (not McArthur) but that's because he sits in which is more in keeping with what Cabaye did alongside Luka. That said, of YC and LM I feel that Yo was ever so slightly further forward at times but did little with the ball - wonder if anyone has an average position map to test my theory! I get why people want Luka slightly further forward; he strikes a good ball and the goal vs Soton and assist for Wilf's header are a testament to that. But ultimately in this system they sit in, and it is up to the wide midfielders to get forward and create.

That said, if we were to sign RLC everyone assumes he'd play left mid, but I'd play him next to Luka in the centre. Roy has always said he is a centre mid long term. Yes he carries the ball, but he was previously thought of as a defensive holding mid. He could help us spring counter attacks; I don't think it would hurt his development to play slightly further back and in the centre. He is physical, can tackle and has a decent passing range but we didn't see that when on the left so much. Very attacking though and could leave us susceptible to counter attacks - we'd need a lot of pace elsewhere to cover.

MFBias 19-07-2018 10:06 AM

Loftus-Cheek actually had his best games under de Boer where he played Centre Mid.

I was instanly blown away, a midfielder who could run and pass but also get stuck in with headers and tackles. I dont know what it was either getting an England call up, different tactics due to manager change and playing in a diffferent position but he was never the all round player again that season. He was execellent when he came back from injury but he was abit weaker, being easily shrugged off and too ponderious, maybe he’s posistion is centre mid rather than a flank?

GreatGonzo 19-07-2018 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341691)
Loftus-Cheek actually had his best games under de Boer where he played Centre Mid.

I was instanly blown away, a midfielder who could run and pass but also get stuck in with headers and tackles. I dont know what it was either getting an England call up, different tactics due to manager change and playing in a diffferent position but he was never the all round player again that season. He was execellent when he came back from injury but he was abit weaker, being easily shrugged off and too ponderious, maybe he’s posistion is centre mid rather than a flank?

It is but until he improves the defensive side of his game he needs 2 in there with him which Palace don't play.

Sleeping Giant 19-07-2018 11:29 AM

If we're skint we need to sell Schlupp and Riedewald providing we can recoup all our cash (probably). They cost too much for players not automatic in the 1st XI . As soon as you are carrying guys you are trying to fit in somewhere you are beginning to lose sight of priorities.

PalaceSi 19-07-2018 11:41 AM

Personally i thought RLC's defensive side of his game was badly lacking and i wouldn't want to be relying on him in centre mid.
His lack of tracking back was fairly appalling and he he never seemed to be focused on his defensive duties.

It was actually hard to know where to play him, he's not a number 10 and he couldn't be trusted in front of the back 4 so out on the wing it was. It wasn't his position but he could be effective and we didn't need to rely on his defensive work.

I'm not sure why we are so mad keen on him. We might get him back for another loan but loads of other teams would want him too and we certainly can't afford to buy him not now or ever. Frankly for the money it'd take to buy him i wouldn't want him anyway, for that money i'd want a midfielder who can play in midfield.

thereichstuff 19-07-2018 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeping Giant (Post 14341803)
If we're skint we need to sell Schlupp and Riedewald providing we can recoup all our cash (probably). They cost too much for players not automatic in the 1st XI . As soon as you are carrying guys you are trying to fit in somewhere you are beginning to lose sight of priorities.

They are important squad players . Not everyone is a automatic 1st team player , we are not at that level . Keep them as they will have a part to play this season .

Sleeping Giant 19-07-2018 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thereichstuff (Post 14341819)
They are important squad players . Not everyone is a automatic 1st team player , we are not at that level . Keep them as they will have a part to play this season .

We are at the level where support players should cost less if we are indeed skint. Funds need to be used where we can hurt people most as a priority, there is no point spending on sort of quite good fillers. If nobody wants them ofcourse we're stuffed but this an area we should be trading in rather than considering moving the likes of Andros on for example.

glaziers fan 19-07-2018 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFBias (Post 14341691)
Loftus-Cheek actually had his best games under de Boer where he played Centre Mid.

I was instanly blown away, a midfielder who could run and pass but also get stuck in with headers and tackles. I dont know what it was either getting an England call up, different tactics due to manager change and playing in a diffferent position but he was never the all round player again that season. maybe he’s posistion is centre mid rather than a flank?

COMPLETELY agree. As a centre mid RLC worked much harder on the defensive side covering the centre backs, and displayed his all round game with tackles, 40 yard passes etc as well as the driving runs we have become accustomed to. I was beginning to think I was the only one who saw this side to him under FdB, and that maybe I'd exaggerated it in my head like normal ;)

Was it under Hodgson's orders that as a narrow wide left midfielder he ran with the ball and chose not worry so much with any defensive responsibility? Either way, I believe he has the attributes to be even better at centre mid under Hodgson than he was as a left mid. He's going to be some player when played through the middle.


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